The following is a pre-recorded program. We're going to answer some great questions today on revival and the gifts of the Spirit and the so-called NAR. It's time for The Line of Fire, with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.
Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, Michael Brown delighted to be with you. Not taking calls today, but responding to questions that have already been posted on Facebook. So sit back and enjoy the broadcast. And my daily reminder, so many listen, tune in one time, first time, here and there, they're missing a show, et cetera. So I make the same announcement every day.
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But anyway, just your name, email is enough and we will get right in touch with you. Okay. Question from Clyde. Where are the signs, miracles and wonders and the gifts of the Spirit in America, notable manifestations of the Spirit? Clyde, what's interesting is when I've posted on social media saying, hey, if you experienced a miracle, a documented miracle, post it here.
If you have clear evidence of the voice of God speaking and there's something supernatural that happened, post it. I've been blown away by the stories, post it, and by the number of stories. There are a number of really good books that have been written in recent years that look at contemporary miracles. Randy Clark's book, Eyewitness to Miracles, or his book on intimacy with God, where he goes through John's gospel about intimacy with God, but then has testimonies from everyone that has been a student, one of his classes, the senators ministry, testimonies from people on the front lines. Incredible. So Randy Clark, Eyewitness to Miracles, or Intimacy with God.
Craig Keener wrote an extraordinary two-volume study on miracles today and it's dealing with the larger philosophy that says they're not for today then going back to New Testament times and until today. But it's two volumes. It's a big read. I haven't read through all of it myself.
Sorry Craig, my apologies. He has a shorter book on miracles today. It's a paperback.
It's one volume. So I was listening to that on audio and it's overwhelming the numbers of healings, the numbers of miracles, just overwhelming. And then Lee Strobel, his book, The Case for Miracles, he raises questions against miracles and interviews an atheist, but then specifics, details, examples one after another that are just God-glorifying and mind-blowing. So remember in the history of Israel, they only had the, they passed through the Red Sea once, right? They passed through the Jordan as a nation once. Elisha the prophet passes through the Jordan and the waters dry up once.
Peter tries to walk on water at one time. Jesus is recorded doing a couple of times. The fact is, this is not every day, but the healing of the sick, manifestation of the Spirit in other ways, prophetic words. These were things happening, prophetic words all through Israel's history in a steady way, New Testament times, healings, different manifestations of the Spirit. Those things continue to happen in beautiful, wonderful ways. When I wrote my 2018 book, Playing with Holy Fire, a wake-up call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church, I was grieved over the abuses I was addressing. Those that wonder why I don't address abuses, I have for years just read the books where we've addressed these things, the articles, the videos where we've addressed these things. But at the same time, I was encouraged because I recounted so many miraculous stories along the way, undeniable divine interventions. So, they're happening, Clyde. Read any of those books, Randy Clark, Lee Strobel, Craig Keener, and I think your faith will really be strengthened and encouraged.
Dean, hi Dr. Brown from New Zealand. Is there any funny moment with revival or the Holy Spirit that stands out? I would only say in terms of funny because we all associate the Holy Spirit with the beauty of the Lord, with the conviction of sin, with the power of God, with the awe of God, et cetera, as opposed to funny. But I will say this, that when the secular media began to come and cover the Brownsboro revival, that Steve Hill and I kind of thought, all right, that word got out Friday night's the night to come, not just because the building's going to be totally packed and it's going to be a glorious service, but that's the night of water baptisms, when we'll baptize up to 30 people whose testimony ties in directly to the revival, so they get to share briefly and then get baptized. And many times they'd be overcome. They'd get in the water and be completely overcome. The power of God would fall on them. They'd begin to weep. They'd collapse in the water. The very first week I was there, I said, Steve, they're coming out of the water dead. You know, you died of sin.
As soon as they collapsed, you literally carry them out. They were completely overwhelmed. So Steve and I kind of thought, look, for the secular world, for the secular media, God's probably going to turn it down. In other words, whatever happens to the people when they step into the baptismal tank where they begin to weep or cry out or just get so exuberant and full of joy, it'll probably get toned down so it doesn't seem weird to the secular media. And it almost seemed that on those nights, God intensified it. It almost seemed like on those nights, God turned up the intensity. And it was as if to say, I'm going to touch people the way I touch them. It's one thing for us as a body, what's in our power to do things in an orderly way, not allow dueling prophecies or things that are confusing, et cetera. It's another thing when God comes down and takes over. And we realized he was saying, I'm going to do what I do.
So I remember, I think it was when CNN was there, a woman gives her testimony. I was on crack cocaine 20 years. I came to this revival. Jesus touched me.
I've been free. She screams and collapses. Just lets out a scream and collapses. Well, when it got on TV, you didn't see the first part about, I just set free for a 20-year cocaine addiction, met Jesus here. You just hear the scream. We just smiled and said, hey, let God be God. Katie, responding to the way I posted things, said, it's N-A-R, not scare quotes, N-A-R. And then, let me see, let me tie this in with a question from Amy. And I'm so glad you folks have posted these things.
Let me find it. Amy really takes exception with this as well. I'm getting there. Why use quotation marks around N-A-R and why do you keep promoting N-A-R wolves? Okay, so let's set the record straight.
If you want truth, you're going to get truth. I use N-A-R in quotes because there is the real N-A-R, the New Apostolic Reformation that was spearheaded by Peter Wagner and continues to this day. And there is the false N-A-R, which is largely the N-A-R of the critics, which groups together all kinds of disparate, unrelated, charismatic movements, ideologies, abuses, and mixes them all together in one as the boogeyman. And that simply does not exist.
It is a fiction of the critics. I've sat, interacted for hours and hours and hours with people who've researched and looked at this and shared their views. And I know people on the inside. And I'm just telling you, as an insider in the charismatic movement, as someone respected as a leader in the charismatic movement, I have sat with leaders who were accused of being N-A-R. And the first thing we sit down, they say, Dr. Brown, what is NAR? What is this NAR thing? They have no idea what people are talking about.
I'm talking about behind closed doors. What are they talking about? And I'll say, it's people who believe this, this, this. They said, I don't believe any of that.
I said, no, no, you're a leader in it. So I'm telling you for a fact, the NAR of the critics is a myth. It does not exist. It is different groups mixed together, different ideologies mixed together, word of faith, seven mountain dominion, fivefold ministry, different things, and all put together. And then whatever charismatic abuses there are, and they are therefore N-A-R, NAR. Now there is the real N-A-R, the New Apostolic Reformation.
And I have strong issues with aspects of that. I was never part of Peter Wagner's organization, his international coalition of apostles or US coalition of apostles. I was never part of that when the name was changed to US coalition of apostolic leaders.
And it was much more broad. Then I got involved and have been involved in a totally different way and a totally different level. So with all respect to the good Peter Wagner did, I always had differences with other aspects, which is why I was not part of it and have never been part of N-A-R. I'm like, you're a leader in this. Like, I don't believe this. I don't believe this. I don't believe this.
I don't believe this. Do I believe this apostolic ministry today? Yeah, I've believed that for decades. It's got nothing to do with the beliefs of so-called N-A-R. Do I believe this prophetic ministry today?
Yeah. Descriptually and self evidently in so many other ways, believed that for decades before I ever heard of such a thing as N-A-R or Peter Wagner. And I've sat with critics of N-A-R and they said, yeah, you can believe in fivefold ministry that does not in and of itself mean that you believe in N-A-R. N-A-R is this, this, this, and this. So for example, Matthew Taylor has maybe become the top scholar on the life of Peter Wagner now, done extensive research, has access to Wagner's personal letters, emails, archives, et cetera.
He'll give you dates and times and specifics. And he believes that the New Apostolic Reformation is very dangerous. He believes that in many ways it was responsible for the events of January 6th and the storing of the Capitol.
He believes that it has very dangerous potential cultural and political implications. And he believes that, that Doug Gavet and Holly Pivik have some good nuggets of understanding about N-A-R, but thinks they're wrong in many other areas and that they're mistaking charismatic ideologies, grouping them together as N-A-Rs. In other words, I don't agree with all of Matthew Taylor's viewpoints, but he gets that part right.
He gets it right that there is an N-A-R, a New Apostolic Reformation that holds to certain tenets and beliefs, certain special powers of apostles today, everyone needing to be under some type of apostolic covering, et cetera. I reject all that. I always have rejected it. You'll not find a single syllable in any of my writings that supports that. Nor is there a single quote N-A-R wolf that I support.
Zero, ever, under any circumstances. End of subject. So you can show me someone who is a wolf, who is not a believer. They're a wolf in sheep's clothing, posing as a believer, and they are part of the Peter Wagner New Apostolic Reformation, and I support them. Show me that person.
Show me who it is, all right, because it does not exist. Now, you may put certain people... Look, people call me a wolf. People call me a N-A-R wolf. People call me a false prophet, a heretic.
If there's a name to call, I've been called it. It's something I bless the Lord for in terms of being lied about, being slandered, being mocked for the gospel. So be it.
What I hold to, I hold to. I believe this apostolic ministry today. I believe this prophetic ministry today.
I believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today. I believe there is something that does not have the scare quotes, N-A-R, New Apostolic Reformation, that Matthew Taylor's addressed a lot. I don't believe it's as dangerous as he would say on the political end, but I have many, many differences with that.
And then there is the N-A-R of the critics that is a myth that does not exist. And I will continue to put that in scare quotes. I hope that is helpful. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. And welcome back to the Line of Fire. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you and delighted to give my daily shout out of appreciation to our great co-sponsor TriVita, standing with us, standing with you for wellness, standing with us to expand the ministry to help get the church healthy spirit, soul, and body part of my daily regimen.
So I encourage you to check out their wellness resources. Okay, back to your questions about revival, about the Holy Spirit, about quote N-A-R. As I explained in the last segment, I say quote N-A-R because there is the real N-A-R, the New Apostolic Reformation that was coined by Peter Wagner and led in certain ways by Peter Wagner and continues today with distinct beliefs and practices, some of which I agree with, some of which I differ with, which is why I was never actually part of that movement. And then there is the fictional N-A-R, the N-A-R of the critics which groups together disparate, charismatic, Pentecostal movements, teachings, et cetera, puts them all under one heading and in that sense does a lot of harm because it confuses and it creates this boogeyman, oh, it's NAR, everything's NAR, NAR, NAR, as opposed to let's deal with actual issues. Let's deal with the issues. The dialogue with Doug Avent and Holly Pivik that was done by Brandon Kimber in American Gospel that was recorded, so it's not part of American Gospel 3.
It's independent and I don't know, it's four hours of content. I'm not sure how much that I had the privilege of dialoguing with Doug and Holly. My appeal was, look, let's work together to address abuses. Let's work together to call out things that are wrong, but as long as you put everything under the N-A-R heading and group these things in and put the worst construction on stuff, it's hard to do.
It's confusing, but by all means, let's address issues because the issues are there and the concerns are there and I share many of them. Steve, in my findings, the NAR believes the book of Revelation is not future, Avent, your thoughts? Well, there is no what the N-A-R believes because there are many different people with many different beliefs. However, there are many that would be part of New Apostolic Reformation that do hold to a Preterist view of Revelation. Now, there are many who have nothing to do with NAR who hold to a Preterist view of Revelation, meaning it's symbolically speaking about things in the past, it's not about future end times, it's symbolic visions about what was happening in the first century with spiritual application and ongoing way, the Preterist view of the book of Revelation. So, plenty of scholars hold to that and there are NAR teachers who hold to it, but is it the main eschatological teaching in NAR? Is there one specific thing?
Not to my knowledge, but many definitely do hold to that. Teresa, what is the role of the evangelist within their home church? A great question of, these are all been, I appreciate every question that's been asked here.
So, it's a practical question. In the home church, an evangelist has two basic functions. One is to be winning the lost, doing what evangelists do.
The other is to be equipping the body to win the loss. Now, that's what you do on a national level if you have a traveling ministry too. But if you were someone with a real gift of evangelism and called to be an evangelist and you're part of a local church, maybe you're an elder, but you're not called to be the senior pastor or leader, but you're an elder in the church.
So, you would, one thing, it's part of your lifestyle, part of your calling. You're always winning the lost people, getting them plugged into the church where they can get discipled and grow. But, periodically you've got to preach messages, come on, let's go out, let's make a difference, this is part of the lifeblood of the church, we're all called to do the work of an evangelist, and then you're equipping people. Okay, I'm going to do this class and we're going to go out in the street on Saturdays.
So, you come Saturday morning, we're going to teach, then we're going to go out in the streets. So, they're equipping the body, they're enabling the body to do the work of evangelism, and they themselves, because they're evangelists, they are sharing the gospel and winning the lost. Aubin, how to be filled with the Holy Spirit, all in caps with four question marks. Number one, there is your ongoing walk with the Lord, Ephesians 5, don't be drunk with wine, ruin is excess, but be filled with the Spirit. So, develop a daily solid walk with God, encountering him in the Word, encountering him in prayer, and in that sense, as you walk with the Lord, being filled with the Spirit in an ongoing way. However, many of us believe that subsequent to salvation, there is an immersion in the Spirit, there is an empowering in the Spirit, and for that, you read through the book of Acts, you see what God does when the Spirit is poured out, and you say, God, fill me to the full. Fill everything you have from my life for service, for the glory of Jesus, to honor your name. Touch me, empower me, anoint me with the life of your Holy Spirit, baptize me in your Spirit, empower me to do your work, and if you cry out to him and seek him earnestly, he will do it. Or if you know someone filled with the Spirit that moves in this, they can pray for you, lay hands on you to be filled with the Spirit. And remember Luke 11 13, if you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?
He is faithful. Don, why does a lot of the church run it on a pastor who is the main overseer, not biblical, New Testament, Ignatius of Antioch has been a big influence on this thinking. Two of our favorite things we teach or challenge on. My husband is a great teacher like you, it really bothers me that many churches do not hold the blueprint of scripture, much of the church still holds the Catholic view still. Okay, so Don, I appreciate that perspective.
Here's where I agree, here's where I disagree. I agree in that we have the one man does it all, sola pastor, as I call it. They have one senior leader who runs everything and does everything and so on, and other people do that on a low-level service, but all the preaching, all the teaching, all the ministry, all that. It's one person. It's not biblical. It's not fair to a person either.
That's one. So I agree with you. And I agree there is a Catholic mentality of clergy laity, whereas there's leaders and the rest of the body, leaders and believers, but there's not clergy laity.
So I agree we still have that distinction. However, I do believe in senior leaders. I do believe in a senior leader as chief among equals. In other words, you have a team of elders to whom you are in submission and on all major directional issues, you do not move forward unless you have unanimity, not just majority, but unanimity.
On major issues of direction, decision-making for the church, you do not move forward as a church without the unanimous agreement of the elders. I believe in that, but I do believe that there is a visionary leader. I do believe that when Paul was with his team, that Paul was the senior leader of his team, that Timothy was the senior leader of his team, that Titus was the senior leader of his team. They were appointed to get things done in regions and things like that. So on the local church level, I believe there should be elders leading, serving, and that it's not just one person doing all the ministry. At the same time, there is a senior visionary leader, often the church planter, often the one that found it and is moving the thing forward. So I honor that.
I respect that. We don't want to turn that person into a celebrity. They're just another person just like you and me. And then if their greatest gifting is not teaching, then they may need to have a teaching elder do more ministry.
They should be apt to teach for sure, but maybe there's someone's a better teacher. Maybe the senior leader is a gifted evangelist. We just talked about evangelists.
Maybe they're a gifted evangelist and they preach in the lost or saved. You better make sure you have the equipping pastors now helping to disciple people and the shepherds helping give oversight to the flock and help those who are hurting, etc., because the evangelists may miss that because you're so focused on the lost. So let there be a team expression, even if the pulpit is mainly one leader. Let there be an overall team expression. Let that be worked out in the leadership. Let the church know this is an elder-led church before the Lord.
And here's the senior leader, the chief among equals. That's how I understand Scripture. That being said, there can be debate because the Bible does not give a detailed outline.
It must be this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And one reason, I believe, is that it has to work in every culture. It has to work across cultural lines and and different denominational lines, so there's a lot of flexibility. But you want to avoid something that's leaderless, that has no one with vision and calling and anointing to help lead the congregation forward. On the other hand, you want to avoid the solo pastor or celebrity pastor and recognize that we work and function as accountable teams.
My book, Revolution in the Church, Don, I think you'd like that from the early 2000s, Revolution in the Church, Challenging the Religious System with a Call for Radical Change. We'll be right back on the other side of the break, and I will get to more of your great questions on revival, the Holy Spirit, et cetera, right here on the Line of Fire. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.
Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thank you so much for joining us on the Line of Fire.
Michael Brown, if you're listening, you can hear the smile in my voice. If you're watching, it is there. What a joy going on 16 years of live daily talk radio, most days of the week, five days a week doing live talk radio. I look forward to it every single day. I'd love to answer your questions, not just to give information, but to equip you. That's why we're here, to help infuse you with faith and truth and courage to help you stand strong on the front lines.
Yes, Harvey asked this. Can you break down the biblical and scriptural idea that one receives the Holy Spirit prior to the baptism of the Spirit using scripture? How scripturally do groups separate the baptism of the Holy Spirit from salvation using scripture? Okay, so the most common view in the body is that the baptism of the Spirit receiving the Holy Spirit, that's all at the time of salvation.
Why would people hold to that? Well, they would say that Paul writes to the Corinthians that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit, that when Jesus says that he will not leave us as orphans, so come to us, he means by his Spirit, that the moment we are born again, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When Peter preaches in Acts 2, repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus, for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2-38, you could argue that that is right along with salvation. You're forgiven, you receive the Spirit. So at the moment of salvation, you receive the Spirit. 2 Corinthians, Paul writes in the 12th chapter that by one Spirit, we are all baptized, excuse me, 1 Corinthians 12, we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body. So those would be the arguments for the baptism of the Spirit happening at salvation, that you receive everything there is to receive of the Spirit at salvation. The idea that there is a subsequent baptism of the Spirit after salvation, you'd go to verses like Luke 24, 49, stay in the city until you're endued with power from on high. These were the apostles, they were already believers, they were already born again, they were disciples of Jesus, but there was a further endoom in Acts 1-8, you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, which then happens in the 2nd chapter. But then in the 8th chapter of Acts, it says of the Samaritans that came to faith that they had received the Word, they were believers, but they had not yet received the Spirit. And that doesn't happen until Peter and John come and lay hands on them. It doesn't mention tongues, but something distinct happens to the point that Simon, who was a sorcerer before, says, hey, let me pay you money so I don't have the same gift. So wherever I lay hands on them, I'll receive the Spirit.
So that's one thing. Then Acts 10, Peter is shocked as the Gentiles are hearing the Word that God confirms their salvation by sinning the Spirit. Right then, they begin to speak in tongues, like, whoa, we can't not baptize them. But that was a surprise, you'd think there's a process, you hear the message, then you're baptized, then the Spirit. But then Acts 19, Paul asks the believers from Ephesus, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Well, why ask it if it was automatic? And then the experience of hundreds of millions over the centuries, but in particular the last hundred plus years, that have received a subsequent that have received a subsequent empowering. So that would be the argument that you receive the Holy Spirit and everything you need at salvation versus the argument that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, but there is a subsequent empowering after salvation. That's my own view, but of course I don't divide over it. My view is show me. In other words, if you have received what I received, the baptism of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, what I received subsequent to being born again, if you have that same baptism of the Spirit, wonderful, glorious, if that came at salvation, wonderful, just show me the reality of it.
That's my only question, show me the reality of it. You say, but how do you interpret 1 Corinthians 12 then that by one Spirit are we baptized into the body? That's not the baptism of the Spirit, that's the Holy Spirit immersing us into the body of Christ versus being immersed in the Holy Spirit.
So that's how folks would nuance that difference. Carol, Dr. Brown, Jesus set me free. No hands of man were touching me.
A few months later experienced Brownsville and God got me again while minding my own business. Shook violently for three days and three nights. So here, just overcome by the power of God and sometimes your body just can't take it. It's, you know, the old question, why do some people fall down because they can't stand up?
It happens. I've seen it happen to people just without anyone touching them or going anywhere near them. The power of God fell on, they fell on their face during their service or fell on their back overwhelmed by the Spirit. I've touched people that I've just come up behind them trying to walk through an aisle and just touch their back and overcome by the Spirit, fall to the ground.
They didn't know who it was or what was happening. I've seen people that were complete skeptics fall on their face after being touched and prayed for. I've seen people standing there mocking, but they'd heard the message and people were praying for them, but they were there waiting for prayer, so something was going on. Their arms folded like, yeah, right. But something was going on and I've barely touched them, barely got a finger to their hands and seen the power of God fall on them. They fall to the ground, shaking, weeping, and they get up transformed. God's been working on their lives and that was the moment the Holy Spirit touched them. At the same time, I prayed for thousands of people and didn't see anyone shake or fall. That's not the proof to me.
The proof is to change life. Anyway, back to Carol. It's like this revival spirit deposited within my spirit and heart and I know there's more than boring church and sing three slow songs and one praise song. My heart knows there's more to be had in Christ Jesus, could search the world over and where is the more? His manifest presence, where, where, why is it not in the churches?
Okay, Carol, here's the good news. That glorious presence, that manifest presence, that powerful presence is in many churches all over the world and all over America and I've been to many of them. I've experienced God's powerful presence in other churches, in worship, over and over, some year in, year out when I'm with them. So, He is moving.
Things are happening. On the other hand, there are plenty of places where we kind of go through the motions. This is what we do at church and there's no encounter with God and no life-changing presence and it's kind of like going through the motions but we know there's more but we're not experiencing it and we don't know why.
So, here's the solution. Encounter God alone. Encounter God praying with friends. In other words, get the good you can out of a church. If there's no other option, there's no other place where God is moving and you say, hey, this is my home church and, okay, we're going to be loyal there but you're not encountering God there in a powerful way but the teaching is good. Well, enjoy the teaching and get involved in whatever you can and touching the community and ministering to people and so on but then encounter God alone.
And you can, you can. Yes, there are overwhelming times I've had in corporate services where the Spirit moves. In times of worship where you're just on your face weeping or watching God move after an altar call and seeing young people changed and they're on their knees pledging their lives to the Gospel.
It's so precious, it's so beautiful, it's so wonderful. At the same time, the ongoing greatest encounters I have with God are alone, all alone with Him. It can be through worship music that you encounter Him. It could just be on your knees praying with the Word. Seek Him and encounter Him alone and then maybe you can even bring something more, just not try to make something happen in the church but even pray more for God to bless your congregation.
I know it can be challenging but, but He wants to meet you where He counts the most. Sarah, what's your take on all Christians must speak in tongues? I reject from the heart the idea that all Christians must speak in tongues or that it is a proof of your spirituality. If you don't speak in tongues there's something defective or wrong with you.
I reject that view categorically. Do I believe, in theory, every believer could speak in tongues? Yes. Do I believe that the most common outward manifestation of the baptism of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?
Yes. That being said, we say, Father, I'm your child. I want everything you have for me that will help me draw closer to you, that will help me to become more intimate with you, that will help me know you better, that will help me serve you more effectively and be used by God to touch this world.
I want everything you have and I want to yield myself to you for those purposes and then walk with Him and let Him work those things out in your life to His glory for your good and for the good of others. Ira, how can we as Charismatics have better oversight over our local churches and assemblies when it comes to sexual and leadership abuse? How can we have better accountability in our independent churches where there is no denominational responsibility and structure?
Okay, first let us look for accountability rather than run from it. In other words, if you're not part of a denomination, if you're part of an independent church structure, do whatever you can within the leadership to build accountability so that there are other leaders to whom you are accountable who have the power to remove you as a leader if you send or if you deviate it from the truth. Along with that, seek accountable relations.
You have to seek it because no one can put it on you if you're part of an independent work. Seek accountable relations where there are people who can speak into your life and who can correct you and who can come with some weight that there would be consequences for not heeding them. Build those in and then build honest relations with other leaders in your city, people that you can get to know in a closer level. So, of course, starting with your own leadership team. But I'm saying this is what you need to do as a senior leader. Seek to have peer relations as well and outside of your own congregation where there could be transparency and honesty. But bottom line is you can't force it to happen.
In other words, this has to be something that people are desiring. If you have a structure where the pastor is the sole final decision maker, where no one has authority to remove the pastor if there is financial corruption or sexual sin, you need to get out of there. I don't care how good the services are, how good his preaching is, you need to get out of there. It is unhealthy, unbiblical and dangerous. At the same time, we can beat each other into a pulp in the name of accountability.
It's a healthy life-giving way to practice these things and live them out. One other thing, let us do our best to cultivate a culture of humility, to cultivate a culture of servanthood rather than a culture of the celebrity pastor, the superstar pastor, the amazing man of God, the amazing woman of God. Let's give honor where honor is due, but let us not exalt flesh.
Let us not give ourselves to a culture that does it. At the end of the day, we are all flawed human beings who live by the grace of God. And yes, there are lines we do not cross. Yes, there are standards we live by.
Yes, the word of God is very, very clear on all these things, absolutely. But we don't strut, we walk with a limp. Let us seek to cultivate a culture of humility and accountability where we do not have proper denomination or accountable structure. And for more on abusive leaders and unaccountable leaders, see my book, Playing with Holy Fire.
This is how we rise up. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
You can write to us at thelineoffire.org and you'll see when you go there a line that says contact and you can send your questions and our team will be glad to do our best to help with your questions. Bishop Dr. Shadrach, what is the difference between the infilling of the Holy Ghost and the baptism in the Holy Ghost? Further, how is power activated when you were baptized in the Holy Ghost?
Was power a separate baptism? I'm referring to Jesus who came back from the wilderness with the Holy Ghost and power. So first, if you go to Luke 4, it says that Jesus went into the wilderness in the fullness of the Spirit and he came out in the power of the Spirit.
Fascinating, isn't it? So he went in, in and with the Spirit. He came out in the power of the Spirit. So there is a direct association between dunamis, which is often miracle power, miraculous power, and the Holy Spirit. If you look in the Gospel of Luke beginning in Luke 1.35, Luke 1 verse 35, where Miriam Mary is told that she will conceive by the dunamis of the Spirit and then go over next into the fourth chapter where Jesus comes out of the wilderness and he's in the power of the Spirit. Then to Luke 5.17, if I have these references right in my head, where dunamis is there to heal the sick. And then 6.19, where people are touching him and dunamis is coming out of him being healed. And then Luke 8.46, I think, when he says to the woman with the issue of blood, who touched me, dunamis came out of me. And then Luke 9.1, where he gives them dunamis and authority to heal the sick and drive out demons.
Then Luke 24.49, stay in the city until you're endued with dunamis from on high. Acts 1.8, you will receive dunamis when the Holy Spirit comes on you. Acts 4.33, the great dunamis, the disciples, the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 10.38, God anointed Jesus with dunamis, with the Holy Spirit, and dunamis, he went about doing good, healing all who were oppressed by the devil. And then in the plural dunamis is the common word for miracles in the New Testament. But I think I gave you the key words in Luke's Gospel for dunamis, where it's used. Then in Acts, where it's used, dunamis, miraculous power, Holy Spirit clearly associated together. That's what we receive when we're baptized in the Spirit. If you believe it happens at salvation, I just say, show me, fine, show me.
Otherwise, when you're filled with the Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes on you begin to speak in tongues that dunamis is now available on some level, in some manifest way, whether it's healing the sick or gift of faith or something else, that that is now what God wants to do through us. How do we distinguish between the infilling of the Holy Ghost and the baptism of the Holy Ghost? That's a matter of terminology. It comes down to how do you use those terms. If you use them synonymously or if you use them, the infilling is something ongoing in our lives. Baptism is a one-time experience subsequent to salvation. That's a matter of our own terminology.
How do we use it? How do we define certain things in Scripture? Terry, is the gift of an apostle still appropriate and active for it today? Yeah, absolutely. Not like the 12 apostles.
No, no, no. That was one time only. They were writing Scripture. They had certain divine authority.
They were witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus. Those do not exist. But apostles, in terms of more broadly, the way they're referenced other places in the New Testament, like Barnabas is called an apostle, and Acts was at 1414, and others are referred to as apostles in the New Testament who were not of the 12.
Sure, that still exists. My understanding is those are foundation layers. Those are spiritual fathers.
Those are planters. Those would often be, like a Hudson Taylor to me is clearly an apostolic man in the 1800s, or John Wesley was clearly an apostolic man as an evangelist, but then as a planter, and then as a movement builder. My friend Yesupatam, who doesn't use titles, does not call himself an apostle, but he's clearly an apostolic leader. He's planted over 10,000 churches in rural parts of India where the Gospel never gone before. His men have been martyred for preaching the Gospel. He's been stoned for preaching the Gospel.
Jesus appeared to him when he was in his 20s. He has planted works doing amazing things in different countries in the world. One of his workers he disciples sent out working in Madagascar in a nation impacting way with tens of thousands of children in schools that the ministry has raised up and being fed and educated on a daily basis and doing a great work in Germany.
It's now work in America, work in Canada, and Switzerland, Romania, and you know they started feeding the poor, the homeless, and the helpless. That's where they reach out, and so he's definitely an apostle, but again he wouldn't use that title or draw attention to himself in that way. He's a servant of all, and the amazing thing is when he goes to other countries he goes and serves. He doesn't say, I am brother Yesupatam from India. I have an honorary doctorate.
I am revered in it. No, he goes and serves. It blows me away. He just goes and serves this little guy from India. Serves the homeless and the hurting. It's like and doesn't announce to people who he is. It just humbles himself, and that to me that's a real apostolic man. That's a real apostolic man, but yeah so in the wider body it might be like a city father. That's an apostolic leader.
Guy pioneered work in the inner city 30 years ago. Now he's got a thriving church. He's got spiritual sons that are planted churches all over the area. He's looked at as a father and elder in the community, so that would be an apostolic role. Foundation laying, starting with the revelation of Jesus of course.
Foundation laying, planting, building, and then multiplying. That to me is apostolic, and certainly something in the body today, and it's been in the church through the centuries. Just not always called by that name. Now the new apostolic reformation has a very different take on that, and that we're now in the age of the apostle, and that it's completely changing church paradigms, so I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that, but have there been apostles through the centuries?
Not always used by called by that name. Yeah to this day, yes absolutely. Let's see, Aaron, I was at the Brownsville revival as a young boy during my tour of duty and teen challenge. I'm still a follower of Christ, but I'm seriously starting to believe that the Kundalini spirit played a major role in that revival.
Yeah Aaron, based on what? Again, because some people shook? Here look, I've been around the world, and I've seen all kinds of, I've seen counterfeit everything. You know, look, there's Jehovah's Witnesses, they don't have miracles, they're counterfeit Bible teachers, right? They're false teachers. You know, the Mormons, false teachers.
There's all kinds of false stuff, and there's, again, I don't understand where someone get this Kundalini thing from. If Jesus is being preached, look, Jesus said, if you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who say yes? But before that he said, which of you fathers, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
Or if he asks for fish, will give him a snake instead? If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit, or good gifts, Matthew 7, 11, Luke 11, 13, or the Holy Spirit, to those who ask. If you say, Father, Father, I want everything you have for me to glorify your son. I want Jesus glorified, Lord.
I turn from my sins, cleanse me, wash me, fill me with your spirit. You're not going to get demons. You're not going to get some demonic spirit.
And I've been around the world, I've seen the Kundalini yoga stuff, I've been to India 29 times, okay? It's completely separate, unrelated. There's no connection whatsoever. If someone shakes under the power of God, which has happened through revival history, it's not an uncommon thing. It's happened for centuries.
Because why? Because people are overcome. Have you ever heard raucous laughter only to realize it's actually people wailing and weeping? But at first it sounds the same, and then you realize, no, they're hysterically crying, not laughing. Have you known sometimes that a squeal for joy is hard to distinguish from a squeal of pain?
We're human beings. So, the same way, I've seen people trembling under conviction of the Spirit, and I've seen people trembling in fear because they're afraid of what's going to happen, and I've seen people trembling because they're sick, and I've seen people trembling because the room is cold, and I've seen people trembling because the room is shaking. Well, have I seen an earthquake? Yeah, maybe, like in the movies, like everyone's shaking because it's an earthquake. I've seen people shaking because they're weird.
The shaking itself tells me nothing. What I want to know is what's being preached? What is being preached?
And what is the fruit? And I've seen, now, with Brownsville, going on 30 years, so it's 29 years since the revival began, consistent, good, glorifying, Jesus-exalting, Bible-based fruit. And I give no place to the Kundalini nonsense when it comes to that. I was never in the service where I witnessed it. Every so often, some people got weird, and the ushers would normally sit them down. I've seen people get emotionally hyped up.
I've seen that happen. But a demonic spirit in the name of the Holy Spirit in the meetings I was in? No, I've seen demonic spirits, and we've driven that out in Jesus' name. But no, I would encourage you not to go there in your thinking simply because it's not biblical, logical, or historically accurate. But if you have questions, good questions are always worth asking. Read my book, The Revival Answer Book, where I go through Scripture.
I go through history. I think you'll find it helpful. Let's just see here. Philip, do you know any testimonies of people truly cured from modern Alzheimer's? It's like there is no hope for those with this disease. Oh, I don't know any personally. I've heard of, let's see, I've heard documented stories of severe Parkinson's healed and other forms of dementia. I've heard stories.
I just don't know any of them personally. For sure, let us who are alive and healthy do what we can. Healthy diet, healthy diet, healthy diet, healthy diet, healthy diet, and exercise are the best antidotes against it. I mean, super healthy, super clean. Read Joel Fuhrman's The End of Dieting or Eat to Live.
More guidelines there. There's a health supplement that Michael Ellison with Triveda developed after watching his mother degenerate mentally called NeuroShine. So supplement your healthy eating with NeuroShine.
I take it daily. But those that are suffering from it, it's not the end. It's not the end. God can intervene.
So for sure, for sure, for sure, he's done it. But I cannot personally attest to I know firsthand because I've seen it. But I have heard credible stories. And why not?
Why would that be? Often take blessings to you. God be close to you this weekend. If you're down in Fort Worth, join me Sunday morning at Mercy Coach.
