Craig Keener Talks About the New Cultural Background Bible

A brand new study Bible, the Cultural Background Study Bible. I'm joined by one of the editors, Craig Keener. Yeah. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Right now, I am literally holding in my hands an amazing new Bible. I'm flipping through the pages if you can hear me doing that, looking at illustrations, maps, notes on page after page, 2,356 pages. The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, bringing to life the ancient world of scripture. Edited by John Walton, Old Testament, the number one guy I would pick to do that, and Craig Keener. The New Testament, the number one one guy.

I would pick to do this. An amazing study Bible, the first of its kind, and just so much information. It is absolutely amazing. And I have the joy of having Professor Craig Keener with me today. Craig is one of the world's leading New Testament scholars.

He has published oodles of books, including his massive four-volume commentary on the book of Acts. If you printed it normally, it'd be well over 6,000 pages long. He's had a bunch of books just come out in the last couple of months. We said, all right, let's catch our listeners up with the recent books that have come out, and let's focus on the cultural backgrounds, study Bibles.

So. Here's the deal. Craig is going to be with me for two hours. Yeah, a rare opportunity. Anybody.

Bible question you have, Bible background questions, specifically on the New Testament, the phone lines are open, and you have the opportunity to ask Professor Keeney your questions today: 866-34TRUTH. That's 866-348-7884. And above all, Craig loves the Lord and does this joyfully to serve God's people.

So, without further ado, Craig, great to have you back on the line of fire. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was talking to one of our students the other day who was with you in Pensacola when you spoke at our school back then, and you were going to have a QA session with the student, started hanging out with him. He was there for the entire time.

What do you remember about that? When did it start? When did it end? Uh Started around three in the afternoon and we finished around five in the morning. This literally happened.

We had two hours scheduled, just like we have today. I don't know. What time do you think we'll end? Maybe at six in the morning?

Well, it could be. We'll just have to figure out a way to keep the broadcast going on the phone afterwards. And yeah, I mean, what they loved was not just that you gave your time, but that you knew what you knew and you had such joy in answering. We've just got a minute and a half now before the first break. But how did you first get interested in studying Bible backgrounds?

Well You know Yeah. I was reading 40 chapters of the Bible a day, trying to, you know, I was converted from atheism, so I had a lot of catching up to do. But as I was reading that and and I saw how everything fit together in context, I began to realize how So many times St. Paul was addressing a situation that He knew about and his audience knew about, but I didn't know about. And so I said Boy, it would really help me if I understood more of the background.

And before my conversion, I'd been interested in Greek and Roman History and other other things like that. I'd enjoyed learning about it, but I hadn't known it would be useful. And then You know, after I was became a Christian I found it Well, you know, that and and especially the ancient Jewish background was Just it it it sheds so much light on the on the Bible. Yeah, amazingly so. And that's why I ended up in my academic field just wanting to get the background.

We come back, we'll catch up on Craig Keener's recent publications. A bunch of books have recently come out. We want you to know about them. And then we're going to dive into the cultural background, study Bible, and take any question you have for Professor Craig Keener. We'll be right back.

Shake the It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. It is my great joy to be on the air with the dear friend Craig Keener.

We look for any opportunity we can to catch up, spend time together.

So sometimes we have to do it here on the radio. Craig is one of the world's leading New Testament scholars, gifted and graced by God to be a teacher and scholar in the body, one of the most prolific Christian authors, and he's written a bunch of books that all came out at the same time.

Now, we're going to focus today on the cultural background study Bible that he and Professor John Walton have put out, bringing to life the ancient world of scripture. And I'm going to be asking him questions, and the phone lines are open: 866-348-7884, with any Bible-related question you have for Dr. Keener. But before we get into that, let's catch up on what else has been published.

So, Craig, you've had a few books come out all at the same time. What's come out now?

Well One we talked about, that was in April, that was Impossible Love. Yes. Since then, in June Uh the the book was The Mind of the Spirit. And Uh after that was uh uh in July with spirit And now the Cultural background study Bible. All right, so in April, we had you and your lovely wife Medina on, and that was an amazing read.

Impossible Love, where you both tell your life stories and how God finally brought you together.

So, friends, if you haven't read that, it was an amazing read. I mean, I was drawn in by it. I wrote to Craig right at the beginning, it was so dramatic, I wondered if they were going to survive to the end. All right, so then tell me about the mind of the spirit. Mm-hmm.

Mind of the spirit, you know, we Paul talks a lot about the mind. He talks about the renewing of the mind, talks about the mind of Christ, talks about the mind of the Spirit. talks about the mind of the flesh in a negative way. And You know, today we have Christian counseling and psychology that's so helpful. But to try to translate Paul's Greek language into today's psychological terminology is.

Well means we have to figure out what Paul was actually saying. And so I went back and looked at how that terminology was used, and those concepts. What they're related to, say, in Greek philosophy and so on. Looking at ancient psychology. And how Paul engaged with that, where he agreed, where he disagreed, and so on.

And so that that book is um is about that. It's about the theme of the mind in Paul. And talks about uh What Paul means by the renewing of the mind, reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. And so on. And say Romans, the 12th chapter, where Paul talks about as we offer our bodies as living sacrifices.

Some translations say this is our spiritual worship. Others say our reasonable service.

So a mind-related word is in there. How do you understand that passage? Mm-hmm. It's really interesting because The context is talking about the renewing of the mind, and then in verse three, it talks about. Don't think of yourselves more highly than you ought to think.

And so on. Um The the word logicos that's translated sometimes spiritual, sometimes rational or reasonable it can mean any of those things depending on the context. Um It it can mean a spiritual sacrifice in terms of not being a physical one and and Probably does imply that. But also, luggage cost there probably does imply rational or reasonable. That is, it's something you.

choose to do with your mind. Because you know it's right. you yield your body in that way. We're we're not just ruled by our passions. But uh you know, we have passions, obviously, but we are Bye.

knowing what's right and what's wrong. Which is a contrast completely with what you have in Romans chapter 1 with a corrupted mind. in Romans seven with the mind of the flesh. In uh Romans 12, you have the renewed mind. which is able to evaluate God's will because it recognizes what's good and pleasing and perfect in God's sight.

Mm. And and then your your uh and this, friends, this is a substantial work. It's 400 plus pages. It's it's in-depth. I just happened to dive in and was reading the passage on Romans 12 and seeing Craig's treatment.

I thought, ah. That makes sense. That opens things up. Spirit hermeneutics. This is interesting.

You are yourself charismatic. You believe the gifts and power of the Spirit for today, and you believe that that was also the mindset of the writers of the New Testament. Therefore, we should be able to apply certain spiritual hermeneutics, spiritual methods of interpretation to the text as they did.

So, what do you open up in Spirit Hermeneutics? Mm-hmm. in spiritualmeneutics um Well, actually, I was asked to write a book on charismatic or Pentecostal hermeneutics. And and I said, Well, Uh You know what I'm saying? Model I see of that, the way the New Testament writers interpret the Old and so on, the model I see of that is actually something that's for the whole body of Christ.

So let's call it spirit hermeneutics. Um Basically all Christians agree, at least in principle, That after we've done our exegesis, or even while we're doing our exegesis, we still need to dispend we still need to depend on the Spirit to illuminate. the text for us, to help us to understand the text. And what I found, I think, most of Yeah. that it's about embracing the text in faith.

You know, it's one thing To read and do your exegesis and figure out. What Paul means by The the love commandments Uh being You know, the the chief commandment.

Well, following Jesus, and then Paul in Romans 13, 8 through 10, and Galatians 5, 14. It's one thing to to figure that out And to look at the background, say in Leviticus 19, 18, or whatever, it's another thing. To embrace that in faith. and and go out and practice it. Or it's one thing to know Cerebrally, that God loves us, it's another thing to embrace that in faith and say, God really does love me.

God really does love my brothers and sisters, and I should too.

So Um Spirit hermetics is about you know, one step beyond Uh the the you know, the basic interpretive features, you've got to pay attention to context and of background and genre and so on. But saying, okay, I need to embrace this in faith.

Some people though have said that and have have wanted to you know, ignore context and so on.

So you have people you know, claiming verses that are out of context.

Well, it's good that they have faith But if you have faith in something that's not true, it's not going to do you any good. you know, make sure we read it in context. But Also, let's embrace it in faith. Trust the Spirit of God to speak to us. to to change us as we as we hear God's voice in in the scriptures.

So wouldn't that be like Jesus saying that the Father wants people to worship him in spirit and truth, or rebuking the religious leaders, saying you err because you don't know the scriptures or the power of God? Isn't that the same principle? Yes. Yes. Yeah, and Jesus often challenges the way people were reading the Torah.

Um Jesus was never against the Torah. But he was certainly against the way people were reading it.

So, like Matthew 9, 13 and Uh Well I believe it is. Jesus quotes, I desire mercy more than sacrifice. as he's challenging their interpretation or in the In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, you've heard it said. I say to you, you shall not want to kill. Heard it said, You shall not commit adultery.

I say to you, You shall not want to commit adultery. In other words, He's going for the heart. The the message of the Torah Uh what what it really demands of us that that we should want that that that that God's law should be written in our hearts And Uh and so seeing seeing how Jesus and Other people in the New Testament embraced the Old Testament. also is a model for us of And um spirit-led interpretation Yeah, and so I'm thinking of you'll have a seminary grad Kind of looking down at these ignorant Christians that are quoting verses out of context and believing God for things based on verses out of context. And they say they're so ignorant.

And then you have these people, simple people of faith who love the Lord, looking at these seminary grads and saying, You're so dead, you're so judgmental. And they're both right and they're both wrong. What we need is truth and life and faith all together. All right. We come back, Craig.

We're going to start to focus on the cultural background study Bible. But just in less than a minute, what was your goal, you and John Walton, what was your goal in putting this out? Even Even when I wrote the The background, the New Testament background commentary for IVP, that was actually the first of the background commentaries. My My thinking was, and I kind of implied it in the introduction, You know, in the Reformation We get translations. into our language.

And that's great. you know, if you can't read Greek or Hebrew, You need a translation, right? But Uh what about where a passage alludes to a custom that we don't understand or or a Concept that's not familiar to us. Better. That was familiar to the original readers, and the writer just didn't have to explain it.

What do we do then? It would be really good to have Uh not just the translation, but also to have notes. Yeah. That's what the goal of this was.

Alright, and friends, every single page. Amazing notes. It is based on the NIV text, The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible. It's now available. Ain't the world It's fire we want, for fire we need It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. You know, friends, I am constantly addressing things happening in our culture, something I feel God has called me to do, but I don't do it separate from the word.

Everything in my life is going to flow out of my relationship with God and be based on the word. And based on the word, I then do what I do in the larger culture. And to the extent we're grounded in the word, that's our anchor, friends. And that's the compass that's going to guide us. Our ship is out in the sea.

There are rough waters. The spirit is like the wind in our sails. The word is the rudder. It's the compass. It's going to direct us.

It's going to help us put the boat in the right direction. And when we need to stop, it's going to be our anchor. Word and spirit, mind and heart together. That's been Craig Keener's heart. For decades now, and he and John Walton have produced a marvelous study tool, the first of its kind, the Cultural Background Study Bible.

Craig, let's take some calls, and we'll see if we can finish before 6 a.m. But we'll take some calls, and I've got a bunch of questions for you as well. We'll start in Statesboro, Georgia. Cody, what's your question for Professor Keener? Oh, yes.

I just had a question about how I'm in I'm in south of Georgia, so um, bridging the cultural I guess, gap between Romans nine and eleven. Um to somebody who is in South Georgia where Obviously, 9 through 11 is focused on Gentile and Israelite relationships. How do we bring that to life in a context such as the South? Today. That I think that's an excellent question.

And it's actually one that you know, I obviously I saw the the Jewish Gentile Question in Romans. Um you know, it just it just presents itself. It's right there on the surface. But when I actually was getting ordained in an African American church And that became a burning issue in my life in terms of ethnic reconciliation. Beyond that, that was when I first began to see how the principles applied because Um uh you know beyond a Jewish Gentile And that if If God would surmount a barrier that he himself had established Yeah.

How much more? Would he invite us to surmount every other barrier. It's been established by especially human sinfulness. And so, you know, just seeing Like in Romans, if you go through Romans, And just seeing the theme of uh the Jewish-Gentile issue all the all the way through. I mean, Romans won.

Gentiles are lost. Romans chapter 2. Jewish people are lost too. Romans chapter 3. Everybody's lost.

But in Romans 4, Um he talks about being children of Abraham through Through faith. And In Romans 5, in case anybody wants to say, well, I'm descended from Abraham, Paul reminds us that we're all descended from Adam. And then like in Romans seven, Uh he He talks about how the law can inform us of right and wrong. But It doesn't transform us by itself. And then of course what you brought up, Romans nine through eleven.

Uh How Yeah, yeah, well You already know that 'cause you brought it up. But uh But You know, that was an issue It was obviously a burning issue in Paul's day. It's still an issue today. But back then, you know, the Gentiles were the minority within the church. uh within the the churches they were Um And today, I guess it's the other way around.

But Also the issue Many of the Jewish people especially at least the The believing in Messiah Jewish leaders Had been expelled from Rome around the year. Yeah, that's the only thing that's been a very good thing. Paul is writing Romans probably around the year Uh well Maybe fifty-five or somewhere. Just before that, in 1954, the emperor had died Jewish people were allowed to return to Rome. And so what you had was a congregations that were largely Gentile.

now have an influx again. of Jewish believers And so it sets the stage for a clash between these cultures. But That also provides a model for us today. Of ethnic reconciliation, because if God like in Romans 14, your food customs may be different. Even the days you celebrate things may be different, but If if God would do that was something he himself established in history, That's a a model for us.

Or in Galatians, you know, Galatians two, you have what might be considered Analogous to a segregated lunch counter or something like that. Wh when I was realizing these things actually I was an associate minister in an African American church in the South.

So Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Hey, thank you for the question. I appreciate it.

And again, that's the issue of how does scripture apply to us today to the extent we can understand it in its ancient context? All the better then for today. All right, I'm going to be taking calls the next hour and a half. I want to give Craig adequate time to answer.

So we've only got a couple minutes before our next break here. Again, we're talking about the brand new Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible. And I'm just flipping through the pages as I'm listening and page after page of relevant comments, insights, essential background. Craig, if you can do it in two minutes or less, do you remember one of the first things where the light went on, where you got the cultural background, you had read a text a certain way, and it's like, oh, that's what it means. Yeah.

Yeah, one of those was in Matthew eighteen. Uh eighteen about the binding and loosing. You know, I was always I would always be using that in prayer, you know, binding the devil and loosen things and And uh and then When I read it in context and realized What it was really talking about. And then I got the background, and it reinforced: oh, this is what it's really talking about. I was kind of upset and I said, well, you know, it's a very good idea.

It works when I pray that way, so I'm going to keep doing it. didn't work anymore because I knew better. Uh but the Lord still answered prayers in Jesus' name. But anyway Uh but but that passage uh was was one of the ones where the light really went on. And and if you can explain it in brief, what what did you understand it to mean?

Sure. I mean, in the context of eighteen verses fifteen through twenty, it's talking about church discipline or congregational discipline. And the the language of binding and loosing was very familiar in Jewish circles. Uh pork. like the legislative authority of the rabbis.

But also, of course, If you take it literally, binding and loosing is like tying somebody up, letting them go, imprisoning them, or releasing them. And so it. It has to do with the Judicial authority of the assembly to say, okay, well, we followed these procedures, this person is not repentant. And therefore Yeah. This is a discipline that we need to enact.

And then the two or three there who are praying are the two or three witnesses who are also mentioned in the context. Right.

So that was one of the most often quoted verses I would hear as a new believer where two or three gather together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So, in other words, when you come together in a worship service, Jesus is there. Hey, fear not. He is there, even though that's not the primary intent of the verse. He's there. All right.

Hey, friends, big news. We have released. Our brand new line of fire site, our radio site with the latest news, commentaries by me and archives of shows. And so check it out. Brand new, it's gorgeous.

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It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Yeah, I announced a new website and I lost out the, the line of fire. Dot org, brand new because completely new, 100% new. You're gonna love it. Thelineoffire.org.

Check it out. I'm speaking with my dear friend and colleague, Professor Craig Keener, co-editor of the brand new Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, together with Professor John Walton. All right, Craig, let's grab some more calls. We go to St. Paul, Minnesota.

Eliyahu, welcome to the Line of Fire. Hi, um Long time listener, first time caller, I had a question on Matthew 23. Um talking about the seed of Moses. And uh the Pharisees and scribes. Sitting on the seat of Moses.

Who's on the seat of Moses today? And I'll just hang up. All right. Yeah, that's a question, Craig, that comes up a lot. And even in the Messianic Jewish world, there's a question about does that mean that all Jews are supposed to be under the authority of Pharisees?

Or was that temporary?

So what's the seed of Moses? And how does that the teaching of Jesus, the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, therefore whatever they tell you to do, do, but don't follow their example, how does that apply to believers, especially Jewish believers today? For for For the background, there's kind of a debate on the A lot of scholars think that it's There was this particular seat in the synagogue that was called the seat of Moses.

Now, we do know of a particular prominent seat in the synagogue. But we don't know from the archaeology that it was actually called the Seat of Moses. But in ancient Jewish literature, we do find that you could speak of sitting in someone's seat is like being their successor or carrying on for them.

So I think what it's talking about there about the scribes and the Pharisees They were the legal experts. And Jesus is saying, you know, a lot of times They get it right. A lot of times they do know, they do understand the Torah. The problem is, like we were talking about earlier, embracing it in faith. They're not changed by it.

The They were experts. but proud of their expertise, they weren't really living it right, at least from the heart, the way Jesus was talking about, Even though they even agreed that you're supposed to do it from the the heart. You know, the the emphasis on the intention of the heart. But ultimately, it's something that can only happen when when Yeshua transforms our heart.

So Um I think today we have scholars who understand the text. they may not always obey the text. we can still learn from them. But Uh We ourselves We need to do more than understand it. We need to to embrace the message of the text, even even though we're learning from them.

Can I also add something to what we were talking about earlier? Yeah, sure. Um When when you mentioned the part about uh in verse twenty uh of a of Matthew chapter eighteen, The uh Um You know, being gathered in His name, He's He's among us. Actually, there was a A familiar Jewish saying Where two or three are gathered for the study of the Torah, there is God's Shekinah or His presence among them. And and Jesus there.

Is therefore claiming to be the presence of God. Yes, yes, which is quite an insight then for the Jewish hearers. And Craig, just to come back to the question that some Messianic Jews ask, what seems clear is even if at that point there was some Leadership role that the scribes and Pharisees had in Jewish society that these Jewish disciples would have been under on some level. To me, when you get to the end of Matthew 21 and verses 43 and following, the kingdom taken away from you, the leadership and given to a people bearing its fruit, that there has been a shift in the leadership so that when we get into the book of Acts, the apostles do not see that they need to submit to the Jewish leadership, be it Sadducee or Pharisee as represented by the Sanhedrin. They don't need to submit to that because they're under the Lord's authority.

So when they're told, don't preach. They go out and preach.

So I want to pursue that for a moment. Come back to Matthew 23. We're talking about backgrounds to the Bible. Any question you have for Professor Keener, this is a great day to call. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire today, a special day with Professor Craig Keener.

We're not talking about the latest scandal relating to Hillary Clinton or the latest question with Donald Trump or the latest world news. We are going back to the world of the Bible and talking about the brand new cultural backgrounds study Bible. Craig, in the study Bible, when you get to Matthew 23, right around there, there's a whole page, beautiful colored page that lays out the different Jewish groups, the Pharisees and Sadducees and Essenes, the primary groups that existed at that time. And one thing that you've really become expert in over the decades is Jewish backgrounds.

So who were these? Different groups, and why is it important to know that? If Jesus is having a dispute with the Sadducees or with the Pharisees, or maybe they're talking about the new covenant, and was that a concept? The Essenes, did they have that? Why is it important to know these things?

So, give us a little background on these groups and then the importance of understanding who they were. Sure. Um Josephus actually gives us a lot of a lot of details about them. But one of the things, of course, the the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. And so That comes up when when Jesus in in Matthew chapter 22 or Mark chapter Uh Mark chapter twelve talks about Uh you know, you you err because You don't believe in the power of God.

Well, the power of God was associated in regular Jewish prayers with with the resurrection Well, in the same way, when Jesus talks about uh the scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in Moses' seat. The scribes and the Pharisees, the Pharisees were particularly known for passing on. traditions very careful we care carefully from their elders. And they believed that their traditions ultimately went back to Moses, although That's very debatable, but Um They were also Um They were probably among the different sects within Judaism at the time. They were closer to Jesus, certainly, in their understanding.

than were the saddest Or the Essenes. The Essenes were So strict. that they were so separatistic that they you know, they withdrew from society. I mean John the Baptist goes out in the wilderness, but You know, he welcomes people to come to him and, you know, baptizes them. They don't have to stay out in the wilderness or something like that.

The Essenes were much more. Uh separatist. If there's these could be somewhat separatist. But they saw themselves, I think, more as a renewal movement within society. When you add up their numbers, I mean Josephus, who's never one to underestimate numbers speaks of like six thousand Pharisees in all of Judea and Galilee, And Sadducees, about 4,000.

Sorry, Essene's about 4,000. Sadducees, I don't think it gives the number, but Um the Sadducees were mostly elite priests.

Well, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people in Judea and Galilee. And here are these facts.

So they don't actually represent all of the Jewish people. They they represent just Uh especially with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, they were They were among the elite. Um Pharisees were Not like the richest. They probably no longer held as much power as they'd had a couple centuries earlier under Salome Alexandra, but they were very popular with people. Their views were m more like the common views of the people The Sadducees were very Uh They were very elite.

They were mostly the wealthy. aristocratic priests and so on.

So when Jesus is having run-ins with these people, he's having run-ins with You know the Educated people. Most people were actually probably not literate. They were not educated. Um Jesus spends a lot of time talking with New Galilean farmers Uh and Mm-hmm. Um people in in villages in Galilee and so on.

When he comes to Jerusalem, though, he's got these conflicts with people who are more elite Uh when he's having debates with the Pharisees. Again, these are people who are highly respected in the society because they were literate, they were trained in the law, they were very articulate. in the traditions So Uh Jesus. He he wasn't cultivating favor We're fat. those who were more politically powerful than he He was He was going out healing the sick.

cleansing the lepers. Uh Preaching to the poor. Uh Welcoming those who are morally marginalized. from the communities. uh the ones that the Pharisees would would despise tax collectors being a notorious Example In fact, in later rabbinic literature, they often contrast Pharisees and tax collectors.

But um Uh Bust it. See, I can keep on going too long. I need to- All right, yeah, so let me let me jump in and ask this question then. When the Pharisees were fairly popular and Looked up to the people, and the numbers that Josephus is given, we understand this is. Is uh head heads of homes, right?

Uh, that he'd be referring to.

So you're talking about men, primarily just as a you know, that's how they'd be counted, but um. In Matthew 23, Jesus really... Rips into them, was it that there was more hypocrisy than we would have seen? Was it that there was an outward piety that the people appreciated, but Yeshua could see deeper? What's your take on that?

Yeah. I I I I think Yeah. pretty much the case. I think Hugo Odberg a long time ago Has the work on the Pharisees, and he argued. Uh this was before Uh what's called a new perspective.

But it was kind of in line with that. He was saying, you know, the problem wasn't what the Pharisees believed on paper. or papyrus or or whatever. The problem was their hearts. I mean, if if you look at what they believed on paper, and Jewish scholars in the twentieth century are pointing this out too, In terms of ethics, the Pharisees and Jesus often agreed.

I mean, even Yeah. Second century school of Rabbi Ishmael talked about Uh lust in terms of of adultery uh like Jesus did is a is a hyperbolic way of of condemning it.

So there there's a lot of um A lot of parallels in the ethics But in terms of the heart, unless we receive the kingdom of God as little children, and God comes in and transforms our heart. Where am I we're not going to be able to do the righteousness from a pure and transformed heart that submitted to the yoke of God's kingdom. The the Pharisees themselves condemns hypocrisy. And Uh you know, in later rabbis talked about, you know, seven different kinds of Pharisees, you know, uh the bleeding Pharisee who Bumps in the walls because he's Walking around with his eyes closed so he won't accidentally lust and so on. But they said there's only one one good kind of Pharisee, the one who lov who serves God out of love or the fear of the Lord.

And So they would have agreed on paper even with Jesus' condemnation Uh hypocrisy among some Pharisees. But What Jesus is really addressing is it has to go to the heart And We have to live a transformed life by the power of the Spirit. And that can only come as we submit to the kingdom. Yeah, obviously very, very relevant for us today. Speaking with Professor Craig Keener, we're talking about the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, just released, over 2,350 pages.

Co-edited. John Walton and Craig Keener. All right, we'll go back to the phones in Wilson, North Carolina. Brandy, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, how are you?

Great, thanks. Um Who am I speaking with? I'm sorry. This is Michael Brown, and we've got Craig Keener on the line.

Okay, well thank you for taking the time to speak with me. Um I've watched a lot of your videos and everything, and I'm not trying to go against you on anything. I just noticed you don't speak a lot of gospel. Are you speaking to me or to Professor Keener? Um to Dr.

Brown. Oh, okay.

So meaning that that I don't that I don't reference something called Paul's gospel? Um Well just in Paul and gospel about. Um He really sets the stage of Jesus's grace and mercy and. basically how it will be saved. And he also mentioned In 1 Thessalonians 4, 17, Titus 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 15, 51 through 53.

about how Um The church is going to be raised, who's going to take us? Hmm. you know, for with the dead first and then we'll rise and go and have the Um wedding supper and things like that. Got it. And if you noticed, the church isn't really mentioned again.

because the church is gone. Ah, all right. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, this is an interesting thing.

So here, I really appreciate the call, Brandy. And I'm going to set up a question for Professor Keener, and we'll respond on the other side of the break. But in short, I've written a couple of books just on grace, one called Hyper Grace, one called The Grace Controversy, where I dive into Paul's teaching on grace, dive in extensively. And I've got whole videos on it. Just put in my name and look for grace online.

Bunch of videos talking about that. And then Paul's a strong repentance preacher. We find in the book of Acts. I talk about that a lot. And then the second coming, oh absolutely, but Craig and I did a whole broadcast on that to see what Paul and others said.

And we're actually going to write a book on it, God willing.

So we'll come back on the other side of the break. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. All right. We've got Brandy on hold asking why I don't speak more about the Gospel of Paul. Actually, I do constantly in my teaching speaking about grace, but just speaking against errors in the understanding of grace. And then the second coming, yeah, I don't believe that Paul taught a pre-trib return of Jesus or that the book of Revelation supports that.

And God willing, as soon as Craig and I get a little break in our schedule, we want to co-author a book on why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

So, Craig, obviously we could go on for hours like we did the last time. But in brief, the Paul of Acts, who's preaching repentance. In Acts 17:30, in Acts 20, 21, and Acts 26, 20, very, very plainly, the latter passage saying that he called for people to repent and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. How does that? tie in with the message of grace.

Or these two different Pauls, as some critical scholars think, how those tie in together? And then maybe real short, why you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. Yeah. Sure. Brandy fed us up off for this.

This is not a good idea. Uh But in um Romans chapter two, Paul says that it's the grace of God that leads us to repentance. Uh Base In Paul's letters to say is transforming grace. I mean, it's it's a free gift. It's not something we earn.

But because We receive grace. it actually makes a difference in our lives because We're filled with love for God. Not that we're you know, perfect Uh but we are or new uh new creations in in Christ But but Going on to the other part about the the pre-trib Rapture idea. Um If I can approach it, I mean, obviously if you look at all the texts in context, I think that That alone is enough to settle the issue. I didn't really know about background when I first began looking at the text in context and saw that Just there was no text in context that said that we would be raptured out.

before the tribulation It Any passage where the context gave us any of the timing, it was always the Jesus' second coming at the end of the age. But coming at it, since we're talking about background, from a background standpoint, Um the the idea of the marriage feast, taken to the marriage feast The messianic banquet in Jewish literature Uh Going back to Isaiah chapter 25, Was understood as during the time of the kingdom. It wasn't like during a seven-year Uh interval Yeah. celebration to keep going on after after Jesus comes back. And also, in terms of background, the passage in First Thessalonians four.

There are a number of Jewish parallels, but The place that has the by far the most parallels that sheds the most light in terms of background actually Oh. Jesus' teachings. Paul says, This we say to you by the word of the Lord. And he's going back to Jesus' teachings. Where Jesus says immediately after the days of their tribulation The the The sun will be turned to darkness, the moon will not give us light.

And then they'll see. the the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with with power and great glory.

So his coming is parousia in both passages.

Well, in Matthew 24, it's after the tribulation. And also The coming with the clouds. In Matthew, it's after the tribulation. The gathering together. He's going to send forth his angels and gather together his chosen ones.

After the tribulation in Matthew 24, Paul goes on to say, now concerning the times and the seasons, well, that's the language Jesus used. Quoted in Acts chapter one, where it's the times and the seasons concerning the coming of the kingdom. And he goes on to speak of coming as a thief in the night.

Well, in Matthew 24, that's his coming after the tribulation. Or do you believe Christians will go through the tribulation? Yeah. Haven't we always yeah, Craig, John 16, 33, in this world you'll have tribulation, be you get your overcome the world. Isn't there a sense in the New Testament that we've been in tribulation the whole time?

John 16, what? John 16, 33. In this world you'll have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I've overcome the world. In other words, the New Testament focus is not so much. On an intense period of X number of years at the end of the age, as much as in this world, 2 Timothy 3:12, all live godly lives in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

So there's a message of overcoming grace and protection in the midst of it through history.

So, Craig, how would you then apply that? Say you have an application commentary in the book of Revelation. We now have it condensed, what we need to know in the cultural background study Bible. But if you just take two minutes, what would be a message of Jesus to the church in the midst of persecution and tribulation worldwide? Uh In the book of Revelation, it portrays Basically, two kingdoms.

You've got Babylon, you've got the New Jerusalem. Yeah. stands for Please. This world in a sense and Mm-hmm. Of course, the New Jerusalem is the Is For the kingdom to come.

And we are citizens of the New Jerusalem. We're the New Jerusalemites. We don't belong to Babylon. Uh we belong to the bride and not the not the prostitute of Revelation 17. Um That's That's relevant obviously throughout the course of this age.

Actually, in Revelation, he does seem the one thousand two hundred and sixty days probably a symbolic reapplication of Daniel's tribulation. Yeah. start that with the catching up of the man-child. Cool. Most scholars Agree is Jesus in Revelation 12.

versus five and six.

Okay. That would also seem to point toward this whole age being a period of tribulation. Uh even if there's an intensification at the end. Can I ask a question and explain why I thought what I did? Yeah, go ahead.

Just gotta be real quick. I will.

Okay, the reason why is because Obviously, Paul even thought that Jesus was going to come back in his lifetime until the end of his life. He realized not.

So I believe we're in the age of grace, and it's very important to spread the gospel, spread the good news. And my reason of thinking that is because it says, you know, Jesus comes back in the clouds and takes, you know, the ones in him and also the dead in Christ. And then He doesn't actually touch the ground until he comes back, you know, in um Where do you get that idea? I'm only jumping in, Brandy, because we're almost out of time. Where did you get the idea that an arrival doesn't arrive?

In other words, the word paraceas is a coming or arrival. The flight is arriving at this time. It doesn't mean it's going to. He doesn't touch the ground with those feet. But where did you get that idea?

Where do you see that in the in the text? Uh well I saw that. And, you know, he comes in the clouds and h he draws the people up to him. Yeah, but it's that coming, which is the one that where he arrives. And that's, and see, Brandy, that's the key thing.

He'll catch us up to meet him. And then we descend with him. In victory. And glory.

So we're caught up to meet him, but it's actually his arrival. And it's visible. The Greek words used speak of an appearing or a revealing. I was taught it the same way, Brandy. Craig and I learned it the same way when we were first saved, but as we read the word, we realized, you know.

That's not in scripture. Look carefully at 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2. And you'll see that we get relief when he comes in flaming fire. And that's for the whole world to see. And it's after the revelation of the Antichrist.

But thanks for the great questions. All right, friends, I'm going to spend another hour with Craig Keener. Keep listening at thelineoffire.org. My bottom line today: there are treasures in the word. Dig in, dig in, and you will be amazed with what you find.

A brand new study Bible, the Cultural Background Study Bible. I'm joined by one of the editors, Craig Keener. Uh It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. You have a great opportunity today to call in and speak with one of the world's top New Testament scholars, a man who loves the Lord above all.

He's got a brand new book out.

Well, it's actually the Bible with cultural commentary. Professor Craig Keener. Joined with Professor John Walton. Professor Walton did the Old Testament, Professor Keene did the New Testament.

So they have distilled decades of scholarly work into clear, simple comments on every page of the Bible, giving you relevant background, information, cultural background, background from other texts in Scripture so that you can read the Bible against its cultural context. If you have a question for Dr. Keene, remember to call 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7884. And before we dive in, take your calls and talk about Bible background. Craig, let's take a minute to share the story of Impossible Love, a book that you co-wrote with your wife, Medine.

And we're good friends. We don't get to spend a fraction of the time together we'd like to, but we've had great talks, had good fellowship over the years. But when I read that book, I got to know you 10 times better. And for the first time, I really got to know Medine. It's an amazing.

Amazing story. What have you heard from readers of the book Impossible Love? What kind of feedback have you gotten?

So often what we hear is people said, Well, you know, I it gives me a new perspective on my own struggles, my own problems. Sisters and Reading this, and Medina's going through war. And some of the people, of course, that give us feedback are the people who know us already. You know, they're like, wow, you know, she's so joyful, it's just hard to imagine that she. She was a refugee during war for 18 months and Um Bit.

People will say, Oh, we couldn't put the book down. A lot of them say we finished it in one day or in two days, or uh a friend from high school told me I had to uh I was gonna Keep reading, but my husband told me to turn the light off because he needs to go to sleep. Uh but Actually a lot of people told me they they they meant to read a little bit at night and they couldn't put it down because of the suspense and so they they they stayed up all night reading it.

So I had to apologize to them for uh keeping them awake, but Yeah, well, you didn't have to apologize to me because I stay up late anyway, but that happened to me. Trust me. You know, it's like if you've ever watched one of these suspense series, I remember as a kid, you know, watching Flash Gordon or something like this, and it comes to the end and the guy's going to fall out of the plane or he's going to drop from a building. He's like, oh, no, oh, no. And you've got to wait until the next week.

This time, all you had to do was turn the page. But friends, if you haven't picked it up, this is a non-academic book. It is an amazing love story of God's love for Craig and Nadine and how he brought them together. It really is an amazing read.

So get it. You'll be blessed. Men, women alike, singles, couples, you'll be blessed. And Craig, I know you hear this all the time, but just looking at a comment on my Facebook page, whoa, Miracles is one of the best volumes ever written. Craig Keener is brilliant.

The Lord has gifted you, and there is a calling for teachers and scholars in the body, is there not? Yes. Yeah. Ephesians chapter four, verses eleven to thirteen. God gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastor teachers.

And The role of of those of us who are gifted in that way is to equip the rest of the body of Christ, For their work of ministry So ultimately all of us are gifted. Ultimately all of us are called and The important thing is to be faithful in our calling, to see what God God wants us to do, what God is calling us to do, and then to invest our lives In that to serve the purposes. his kingdom yeah and view things from an eternal perspective. And here, friends, in one book, you've got it now, the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible. bringing to light the ancient world of scripture.

We'll be right back. We'll take your calls. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us today as I have the great joy of Speaking with my friend Professor Craig Keener, and he is the author now, the editor with Professor John Walton of the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture, which it does on every page I'm looking at. Beautiful color illustrations, charts, over 2,350 pages, just beautifully laid out. And wherever you're studying, just There you are. There are the comments on the page.

Beautifully, simply, and clearly done. Craig, one of my colleagues made a comment on Facebook to you the other day. Looking at how much you've written, the length of the Acts commentary, which is basically like 6,000 pages. And that's among many other works that you've written. You're also a professor, and you're a married man, and a father.

And he said, You must be superhuman. And you said, No, I'm human, but the Holy Spirit is superhuman.

So obviously, you work hard, you're disciplined, God's given you a good mind. But do you really recognize divine grace, empowerment? gifting beyond you in the work that you do. Yes, certainly. There's no way.

Yeah, I mean, I I worked really hard on Axe. I I think I probably had brain damage when I was done, but it was just so much attention, so many hours a day. taking one day off a week for the South, but Um Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh when I was done, you know, and especially when I'm indexing it and you know, something like forty five thousand ancient References besides those from the Bible Uh but references to ancient literature.

you know, and I'm going through that and I look back and I said, you know, I worked hard, but there's no way I could have done this. Just by myself. I mean, this is the grace of God. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just just amazing.

And just just so people can appreciate God's grace at work, when when you're working on a a good project, academic project, about how many pages can you write in a day when you're focused on it? I guess when I I was working on acts. Um Now this is during the the writing of the rough draft. I think I was doing maybe twenty pages a day. But That was uh You know, I was working from notes.

Did I already How so Yeah. That's like the maximum strength. speed but Yeah, it was Yeah, and when you're talking 20 pages, you're talking 20 dense pages. I know your pages, but it's grace. It's something we honor the Lord in.

And then you have to be diligent with it. You have to be a steward of it. It takes that discipline.

So we glorify the Lord. We appreciate your labors, Craig. All right, let's go to the phones. We'll start in Ames, Iowa. Lindsay, welcome to the line of fire.

Hi, thank you for taking my call. And hi, Craig, as well. Hi, Luke. Today, I am calling. I called a couple weeks ago and I got.

You sent me the book, um, Go and Send No More that I have. deep dived into and I'm truly enjoying it. My question today is I have become aware of two kind of Schools of thought or an ongoing debate between whether or not we are called to. Practice the Torah. And, um I've done a lot of just Internet research and asking people I know who are Messianic Jews and then, of course, others who aren't, what their thoughts are.

And I was just wondering if you guys could give me some scriptures that would give me some clarification on that. Over to you, Craig. You can get us started. Yeah. All right.

Um I I dealt with that in spirit hermeneutics. But again, it's more technical, at least a little bit more technical than the study Bible. But It's a yes and a no. It depends on what we mean by keep the Torah. Um Yeah.

Made a contrast between in Romans 3:27 the law of works and the law of faith, if you translate them literally. Uh also in in Romans 8.2. Between the law Uh um And death and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And in Romans 9, also a contrast between pursuing the law of righteousness by works or pursuing it by faith. In other words, Um Yeah.

The law teaches us good instruction uh good principles But it has to be approached. From the point of view of the Yeah. Um Where it's not about us, it's about the God who gives the law. the God who graciously reaches out to us in the law. Um some of the I mean, the principles are there.

But Some of them only apply on the land in Eritz Israel.

Some of them only apply. to a certain period. In in history Um Yeah. Our laws for an agrarian society. Where capital was land.

Uh whereas today you know education might count as capital or something like that so Um the the principles are still valid. Uh I think the way the the New Testament views the law The law isn't meant to save us, it's not meant to give us righteousness. It is meant to instruct us. We're meant to learn from it. But when we learn from it, We have to recontextualize the principles For a appropriate settings.

And most of all, you know, the heart of the law, Jesus said. Is is lost. Uh Mark 12, Matthew Uh 20 two and also uh Paul In in Romans thirteen, Galatians Uh five and James seems to speak of it that way as well. But just to give one example of it, Deuteronomy 22. says that you're to build a parapet around your roof Uh so that you won't incur blood guilt.

And so often I'll ask my students, well, how many of you have a fence around your roof? And most of them will say no, and I will walk out of the room saying, You all are liberal, you don't believe in the Bible, and then I'll come back in and laugh. But I say you know the the principle is Um Care for your neighbor's safety. Back then they had flat roofs, you could be entertaining your neighbor on the roof. uh one of the neighbor kids might might fall off, break or her neck.

The principle about caring for your neighbor's safety is an eternal principle Even though most of us don't have flat roofs and don't need to. build a fence around the roof.

Now the hard part is where how do you decide what's the principal and what's eternal? And you know, you've got like Romans 14 about, you know, Gentiles don't have to keep the food laws and and so on.

So Anyway, I'm I'm talking at too great a length, I think, but No, no, I mean really we could we could go on quite endlessly.

So so let uh rightly so. L let me ask you a few uh pointed questions then. Is there any evidence? From the early church writings, that there was a perception that Gentile believers were required. to live in obedience to the Sinai covenant.

and the and the the Torah, the law of Moses. Is there any evidence that that's how the early congregations lived, that they all observed the seventh-day Sabbath, that they all kept the dietary laws, that this was considered to be an early Christian ethic? You know, there were some people that tried to impose that, but I Okay. Paul argues against that pretty strongly. Um I I I do I guess I do see the Sabbath in a slightly different way than some of the other things because it was actually pre Torah and built into creation is a model for us.

But I know most people don't even agree with me on that.

So I just say the good thing is Take a day of rest, it's healthy. The Bible shows you it's healthy, but right and there. And there's no, we don't have evidence, say, that the in the early church, the so-called apostolic fathers, the disciples of the apostles and their disciples, that they were dealing with a church that was, say, observing the dietary laws. and following the other Jewish laws. We don't have evidence of that.

The other background thing, and we'll have to finish this the other side of the break. In Galatians 3, The image that Paul uses, some translations say the law was a schoolmaster, a pedagogue. What's the cultural background to that? Um Pedagogue actually was not um Pedagogue. uh in the Greek world was uh A sleeve.

who uh took the took the child to school Made sure the child did their homework.

Well, in that culture, I guess I should say, made sure the child did his homework. protected them from suitors because there were a lot of uh guys wandering around who hit on boys back then. and also as a disciplinarian. And in a lot of literature, not necessarily a a very nice disciplinarian.

So Uh it's it's a picture of Of of I I think the idea is Israel needed specific instructions. for specific kinds of things. But when you get to the place where the Uh Christ comes, the law is written in their hearts. we have internalized the message, the heart of what the Torah was really meant to point towards. Then And those particular instructions are no longer necessary in the way that a a pedagogue was no longer necessary once a child became an adult.

Right, so that that would reinforce the the principles of which you speak. And it could be like the scaffolding of a building and the building's up, you don't need the scaffolding anymore. You say, man, how does he know so much?

Well, he studied, he's looked at this for many years, but if you get the cultural background study Bible, you'll find it right in the notes on the same page with what you're reading. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. My friends, just want to mention to you, we have launched a brand new radio website. You're going to love it. A brand new, beautiful, easy to navigate. My cutting-edge commentary and video and article on what's happening in the news archives to all of our past broadcasts, go to thelineoffire.org.

Thelineoffire.org. 866-34TRUTH, my special guest, Professor Craig Keener, speaking also with Lindsay in Ames, Iowa. Lindsay, one other note for you, and then I've got one more question for Dr. Keener. My book, 60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish.

Beliefs and practices: 60 questions Christians ask about Jewish beliefs and practices. The last quarter of the book just addresses these kinds of questions.

So, let me come back with one more question for Dr. Keener, Craig. When we think of the death penalty for violating the Sabbath under the Sinai Covenant, or the death penalty for adultery, or stoning to death unrepentant, disobedient, rebellious teenagers and things like that. Obviously, we recognize that we're not under that today. But What would you say is the is the application?

For believers today, if they feel called to honor the principles of the Torah or they believe that the godly righteous principles are written on our hearts, what's the application of the warnings of death? Is it just, hey, praise God, I'm not under that anymore? How should we think about this? Yeah. Wherever you have a a death penalty, it shows that God is pretty serious.

about that a sense obviously we're not called to Um you know. kill people. Um Jesus is quite clear, you you even to love your enemies. At the same time, Um We do find it applied. In the New Testament, I think it's 1 Corinthians 5:13 or thereabouts, where Paul, Paul.

applies one of those texts To putting out of the church a man is committing incest with his stepmother. Uh Mm-hmm. It it was In other words, the person has to be put out of the community now Uh Paul Paul didn't actually do that Uh en enforce that with everybody. Uh you know, there were some some offenses that he did that more more fully, but Uh But when he But he does apply the the death penalty to putting somebody out of the Out of the church. Right, so it's about maybe nine times in Deuteronomy: purge the evil from your midst.

Paul quotes it, but instead of the death penalty, it's excommunication, just like in the Old Testament. The Israelites had to drive out the Canaanites, and in the Greek translation of that, it's often Ekbalo. And now in the New Testament, we don't drive out the people, we drive out demons.

So there's a spiritual application. And again, we recognize Jewish believers. often for cultural identification or solidarity with your people, that many of my Messianic Jewish friends observe much of the Torah and practice the Jewish calendar, but in a different way, not under the Sinai covenant, but with these things written in our heart. Via the new covenant, the issue becomes when it's binding, and especially when you tell the Gentile: unless you're circumcised and observe the law of Moses, you can't be saved. All right.

We go to Oklahoma City. Stephen, what's your question for Dr. Keener? Hello. Thank you, Dr.

Keener and Dr. Brown, for your ministry. You're welcome. My question is. First Corinthians fourteen and thirty four.

And I guess you could reference 1 Timothy 2. in eleven, but where it speaks of that women remain silent in the churches. They're not permitted to speak. I I guess this is kind of a tough question kind of nowadays. witnessing where people kind of harden their hearts to God.

Could they Who uh think that he has a preference Uh and maybe using these scriptures out of context is where they get that. Can you kind of give the background to that? Kind of lay that out. Help me understand that better. Sure, th this is actually one of the more Well, it's one of the most controversial, I know, because I wrote a book on it and I got a lot of backlash.

But um Yeah. But everybody, well, I shouldn't say everybody, almost all Christians. You know, there are variations. Yeah. very few Christians today Would actually say women has to be complete And so That being the case.

None of those churches take it completely literally where it says they have to be silent. Um Okay. I think it's addressing a particular cultural situation. Um And it could take uh we could take the rest of the broadcast talking about that. But to try to do it briefly, Just a few points.

Uh women were not educated the to the same degree that men were. in that setting. It's in other words, it's not a a lack of the Y chromosome that's at issue. But it was a matter of the the setting Um Jewish boys were were raised through site I'm not sure. Obviously girls could hear it.

But they weren't They weren't actually trained in reciting the Torah. Um so Uh y you started with the the males and the congregation having an advantage in that sense. When when Paul talks in 1 Corinthians 14, 34 and 35 about let them ask their husbands at home because they're not supposed to. Uh The speaker. church It seems like the issue it's addressing is the asking of questions.

And In antiquity, you find this in in Jewish literature like the Teseta. You you find it in Greek and Roman literature. It was just common to interrupt lectures with questions. Not in a nice way like the callers are doing here, you know, calling in and politely. Notes.

interchanging but you know to to just interrupt Barge in with questions, interrupt the speaker. Um And And by the way, to interrupt you, Craig, that's done in Jewish Orthodox lectures and things like that. You'll have the audience jumping in and challenging the rabbis speaking. But anyhow, I interrupted you. Go ahead.

Oh, so yeah, well you did it. You did it in a nice way. The the ones that were considered rude In particular, Plutarch talks about this. or unlearned questions.

So the the matter of uh of learning and education could have something to do with that. Most of the women were Uh were married. back then, there was actually a shortage of available women. And there were actually tax breaks for for getting married and so on. uh for the for the women.

So most of the women were married.

Now there's also the cultural issue. Um It wasn't as much so in Roman culture by this point, but it was still true in Greek culture. still true in a lot of the Eastern Mediterranean. Um that it was considered inappropriate for women to speak publicly in the presence of other women's husbands.

Now a house church is kind of an ambiguous setting. It's a home. But also it was kind of public because you had a lot of people coming in.

So there's the the issue of the possible causing people to stumble, just like the head coverings earlier. Uh going on to 1 Timothy 2, I know I'm I'm going really fast and I'm skipping a whole lot of stuff.

Well, t tell you what let's do this. Let's hold off on 1 Timothy 2. We'll do that the other side of the break.

So, in short, Stephen, we're talking about a house. meeting men sitting on one side, women sitting on the other side. women interrupting the meeting, yelling questions across to their husband. That's what Paul's dealing with, 1 Corinthians 14. 1 Corinthians 11, he already talked about women praying and prophesying in the meeting.

So obviously, they were able to speak. It was this kind of disruption in a particular setting. And how would you know that?

Well, if you're reading the Cultural Background Study Bible, it'll be right there on the page. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us today on the Line of Fire. I've been delighted for the last hour and a half to have on as my guest. Professor Craig Keener.

He is the co-editor of the brand new Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture. We do have time for more questions for Professor Keener, Bible background questions. But you say, oh man, I didn't get to call, or I'm at work, I couldn't call. No problem. If you Get the Bible, you'll get the relevant background.

Each book will be introduced as always: authorship, situation, etc. But on every page, relevant comments, background, beautiful charts, graphs. I mean, just flipping through the pages during the broadcast, I'm learning stuff, especially some of the charts, the archaeological finds, and geography, and things I'm not as strong in.

So, Craig, let us pursue the question of a text that is considered to be a very difficult text, or let's just say one that makes very clear that women should not be doing works of ministry in terms of teaching and preaching. And I'll read Paul's words, 1 Timothy 2:12. I do not permit a woman to teach her to assume authority over man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not the one deceived.

It was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety.

So sit down, shut up, have babies, and everything will be all right. Is that Paul's counsel?

Well Also verse 11, which talks about learning in silence, is part of that. But I think the background is really helpful here because it's interesting. This is the one passage in the Bible that seems to suggest that women can't teach the Bible. I mean you've got You've got Deborah, who's the judge of all Israel. She's a prophetess.

You've got other prophetesses in the Old Testament. You have Junia, who is an apostle. Uh you have uh co-workers of Paul he uses some of the same language for both male and female co-workers.

So when you come to 1 Timothy 2, You say, okay. This is the one passage in the Bible that says that women can't teach the Bible. But it's It's also in the one set of letters. That specifically shows that false teachers are targeting women. to propagate their teaching.

Uh we see it in 2 Timothy chapter 3. Chapter 3, which talks about the false teachers targeting weak-willed women. and leading them astray. You probably have it implied in 1 Timothy 5, where he talks about the Um the widows who are going from house to house. Uh and Part of the wording that's used there.

is a wording that was used for spreading. Spreading false teaching or nonsense. The the idea that the false teachers would target women First of all, the women were less educated. The women, if they were Jewish women, they would know the Torah less than the men would. And also the issue of the widows being particularly targeted because Widows were the the one group of women that own their own homes.

Usually Yeah. You've got an automatic house church Yeah. If if you uh Women to go along with you.

So Uh That I think helps explain the severity uh of the comments And in that culture, A a woman was allowed to maybe learn. There were there's some philosophic schools that allowed women to learn. But in general, Men thought that women couldn't learn very much.

So For example, uh Plutarch, whom I mentioned earlier. Plutarch says That Uh You know. He's writing an essay called Advice to Bride and Groom. He says, Pollyanna, take an interest in your wife's learning. I know that most men think their women their wives can't learn anything.

But you take an interest in your wife's learning. Um Uh that's important because if left to themselves, women produce only base passions and folly. You know, Plutarch was one of the progressive authors Uh and and we have a whole lot of other uh Statements like that from either. But someone would say that, look, Craig, Paul's going back to Genesis. This wasn't a matter of lack of education and emphasis for the women in antiquity.

This is a matter of women are more prone to be deceived because Eve was the one deceived, not Adam. How do you respond? Oh God of burning, cleanse. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. You want a one-page background note on education of women in antiquity?

I'm looking at it right there in the. Bible background commentary, excuse me, the cultural backgrounds study Bible, co-edited by Professor John Walton and Professor Craig Keener. Craig's on the line with me as he's been for the last hour and 37 minutes. I know he's busy always with writing deadlines and projects, so I appreciate him taking this much time. But the other argument, Craig, as you know, and you deal with this in the And the Cultural Background Study Bible.

The argument is that this is not based on education in the ancient world and women being less educated. This is based on creation, and somehow women. Eve being the prototype, more prone to deception than men. That's why women can't usurp authority over men or even teach men.

So how do you understand that? Right.

What's really radical culturally in Paul's statement is not that women shouldn't teach because Okay. Within very few exceptions and a few philosophic sects, women were not allowed to teach men anywhere in the culture. But what's radical is he says let them learn. uh in the roost before but Uh in any case The uh the the question of scripture is actually Since he bases it on Genesis, this is actually, I think, where the debate comes from. And so, on that, you know, I.

Yeah. in the study Bible, I took a more neutral position. Because this is going to be in people's study notes. They're going to have to make their own decisions about how to apply this. But it is interesting if you go through Paul's use of the Old Testament and his writings.

Usually he makes the universal argument. But sometimes he makes arguments just for a particular situation, as the rabbis often did. And it it's interesting when he uses Eve elsewhere, Um as is a model. One of the places is in First Corinthians 11 says that Adam was created first and eve. Therefore, women should wear heavy head coverings.

We normally see that as you know, for a particular situation, And then in Second Corinthians 11.3, 11, 2 and 3, where Paul talks about I don't want you to be deceived. as Eve was deceived. And there he's applying it to the deceivable Corinthians.

So it's not like He always applies Eve to all women in all situations.

So in this passage, It seems to me if you're saying that all women Are more deceived than all men. It's something ontological, it's the lack of the Y chromosome. Then you would you know, then you would come to the conclusion that women can never teach. But you If you're saying, okay, this is a general statement that was true in that setting. then it doesn't necessarily exclude all women from teaching.

That's my preference based on the What I think is the overwhelming evidence from all the other passages where Paul mentions coworkers and so on, and you have women prophetesses. And so on. And how how about 1 Timothy 4? 1 Timothy 4 about the old wives' tales? No, no, the older women.

Oh, the older women. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The older women teaching the younger women. Exactly. In Titus chapter 2 as well.

So if. Yeah, if women are easily deceived, and you have the easily deceived older women teaching the easily deceived younger women, then the women are going to be really, really deceived, right?

So it it seems to me like it's not meant to be a transcultural universal, but I understand again there's a lot of disagreement on that. But I think all of us can at least agree It's not um Yeah. Yeah. has to do with A particular setting in Church. Yeah, and also Philip Barton Payne, as he's written on it, does a good job of emphasizing the usurp authority concept there and where that fits in.

But again, you'll have the notes for you to help sort this out right there in your Bible.

So, Stephen, thank you for the question. Much appreciated. And yeah, I remember when this came up in a previous broadcast, Craig, that you had raised 1 Timothy 4 and then Titus 2 about older women teaching younger women.

So I've used your example since.

So I wanted to remind you of what you reminded me of last time. All right, let's keep going. Fort Mill, South Carolina. Bill, welcome to the line of fire. Your question for Dr.

Keener. Oh, thank you for having me on. I would like to ask what is the the teaching of the Anti Nicene Church Fathers Regarding tithing. Storehouse tithing or general tithing or any kind of thing to do with tithing. early church fathers.

I can answer that a lot better with regard to the Bible than I can with the Antonising fathers. I don't, uh I don't see the word in the Apostolic Fathers Uh It but but I I'm not uh I'm not sure with the The rest of the Antonisian fathers would have said. All right, so let's work from scripture out. You're looking at that as our first primary source. Does the New Testament require Tithing?

Was that something that the early Gentile churches would have naturally done based on being discipled by the Jewish apostles? What do you understand the New Testament teaches on that?

Now I have to When he was arguing with Tetzel and touched the church's fundraising methods, but Um But in any case The Old Testament tithe was especially on agrarian produce livestock And so it had to be translated into money when it would be brought to Um To the city. place that the Lord God chose uh which Turned out to be Jerusalem. And by the time of the New Testament, you had the the Pharisees who are known to be very meticulous on tithing. They were so Emphatic about tithing that they refuse to eat. Uh what they call demi produce.

Uh you know, something that they weren't sure that somebody else had tithed on. If they weren't sure that the food had been tithed, they would tide it themselves rather than risk eating it. A a calculated uh Instead of seeing them all as one tithe. They calculated three different tithes in the Old Testament. Um so Um ten percent for the priests, ten percent for the Levites, and then every third year You would have a tithe.

for uh throwing a big party in Jerusalem. And so it was like 23.3% per year. And they were very knowing to be very meticulous on that. Jesus says in Matthew 23, 23, Yeah. You're great on the tithing, but you missed the deeper principles of the law: justice, mercy, and faith.

Tithing is therefore mentioned with respect to the Pharisees It's also mentioned in Hebrews Where Abraham paid the tithe to Melchizedek.

Now, in the ancient Near East, paying a tenth to a king or an official was a constant. or paying a tenth of the spoils of war as it was in Genesis 14 in that case.

So the idea is there, but that was also in reference to the Old Testament. The the New Testament concept of stewardship goes way beyond that. Course, even in the Old Testament, tithing was only one little part. I'm not sure why we fixated on Yeah. the New Testament Jesus said in Luke chapter 14, verse 33, unless you give up all your possessions, You cannot be my disciple.

Which Uh In practice, the way we see it lived out in Acts two and Acts IV and so on. is not so much that the moment of your conversion you You you get rid of everything. But when there are needs, Then you You rid of what you don't need. to live on. Um We should be Willing to live radically.

willing to leave with simply to meet the needs for the kingdom, the needs of the poor. Then well, I guess we could talk about economic development. John Wesley had a big emphasis on using our resources for that. And obviously, as in the case of the Old Testament tithes, the model for that, the work of the ministry. Yeah, and I think, Bill, also, if you see the principles that are laid out in the New Testament of generosity, of reaping what we sow.

of putting God first. Even of proportional giving, as Paul gets into in his letters to the Corinthians.

So according to what you have, you give. And as you sow liberally, you reap liberally. To me, you end up with the same principles. Beyond the requirement of the tithe rather than the requirement of the tithe.

So, if you teach the principles rightly, I believe people will give generously. I believe legitimate church work will be supported. I believe those who preach the gospel will be supported, and there'll be adequate funds to help the poor and needy in the community and to help support world missions.

So, I don't believe that, quote, tithing is binding in the New Testament, but the principles behind it are laid out once again in the New Testament, and as Professor Kreener said, on an even deeper level. Level so that as we teach these things rightly, we would expect if we surveyed it that people are giving more generously than if they were required to under the law. All right, we've got time for maybe one or two more questions with my dear friend and special guest, Professor Craig Keener. Check this out for yourself. I'm holding it.

Actually, it take about two hands to hold it. This is such an amazingly full study Bible. The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, co-edited by Professors John Walton and Craig Keener. We'll be right back. It's time to change the world.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, Craig, you could have written a new book in the two hours you've been on the air, so we'll just have to make that up to another day. But speaking with my dear friend and colleague, Craig Keener, about the new Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, really just amazingly rich, beautifully produced. Let's grab one more call. We'll go to Manhattan, New York City. Stephen, welcome to the line of fire.

Yes, good afternoon. Uh Dr. Keener, I'm wondering with your extensive knowledge of New Testament background. Is there a New Testament that you prefer for general usage in English? Mm-hmm.

You know, I have I have a fr Uh I had a friend who was a Professor of Semitic languages and When people would ask him which translation do you prefer, he would say On which verse? Yeah, really. Yeah. It it it depends. I I I like to use the The New American Standard Because It's It tends to stick.

Mm-hmm. Through the Greek and the Hebrew. And I like the Greek and the Hebrew. Um But I think it's better that it it's not a wooden style, that it's something that flows because It's not So much that a lot hints. on a particular word.

But when you have a detailed argument, like in in some of Paul's letters There are a lot of Paul's letters. I think There's sometimes it's really important how they translate even the particular wording because Like sometimes They'll translate law as principle. And if you don't You know, if you're not looking at the Greek, you don't know. That they translated it differently. I mean namos can mean either one.

But when it's Transfer is as well. elsewhere in the context, and then you switch over to principal, You know, the translator's making the decision for you as to what it means. And I don't like translators to do that for me. Yeah, and just if I can just add in a couple of quick comments. You know what?

I did a translation of Job for my Job commentary, and the more I did it, the less critical I was of all the other translations. And that's the challenge, Steven. A lot of it is preference. I didn't. I extensively looked at the NASB and the NIV, which I had to when I did my Jeremiah commentary.

And sometimes one got what I thought was right, the other another time. But to me, the NASB was a little too stiff for the Old Testament. And the stiffness, I thought, may have worked better for the new, but of course, my Hebrew is much better than my Greek. And I found, you know, reading the NIV, boy, flows so well. But then sometimes it's like, what?

It missed, it just changed something a little bit, and it didn't tell you in the footnote that that was interpretive.

So the ESV is kind of halfway between the NASB and the. the NIV in that regard. And then we were both involved in the Tree of Life version.

So that's the Messianic Jewish version. How would you say that the portions that you looked at at the Tree of Life, Craig, for the New Testament, how did that handle the Greek? What were the positive nuances of that in your view?

Well, the translators were trying to be consistent in words. Yeah. But it's really hard, you know, because you've got one person translating one book and another person translating another book. And so I I found this when I was writing the the notes for this study Bible for the NIV because Sometimes you have what I think is an allusion to the Uh the Old Testament text, or maybe the sayings of Jesus. And it's the same word in In Greek it you know in the Greek translation of the Old Testament and the Septuagint.

But it's not. It's not translated the same way. And so. Uh That's another reason why I think it's good to have some Study notes. Yeah.

No way you can I mean to go from one language to another, there's no Exactly perfect way. To communicate everything in a translation. And especially with books like Job and Jeremiah, with Hebrew poetry. Uh Then My my Hebrew is pretty good on narrative, but when you get to the poetry, Uh Michael, I I will just have to take your word for it usually. Yeah, and as I'd be looking at it, I mean, I'd look at some of the verses in Job and think, I don't understand this.

And then I'd look at like five translations and like, maybe I understand it. But you know what's also interesting is within Job, I tried the principle of same word in same context, translate the same way. And people say, well, King James always did it.

Well, actually, not. For example, in 2 Corinthians 11 and 12, where Paul's talking about infirmity, infirmity, and then its weakness. you know, weakness and then infirmity, and it's the same, the same Greek word, which would have just been better translated as weakness. People have gotten the wrong theology of healing from there. But even within Job, when I said, all right, same word, same context, I'm going to translate the same way in English, a couple times I just couldn't.

So I put a note in because my integrity said, I got to at least say it's that same word I've been talking about. But it is challenging. On the other side, we have a wealth of amazing translations. No generation in history has ever had what we had. And if you just compare a few different versions, you're always on safe ground.

What do you think about the NET, the New English translation, Craig? Oh, I can't comment. I look at different translations, but I'm not I haven't used it enough to really Pass judgment on it. Got it. Well, all right.

So, Stephen, the benefit of that, it really is new. It's not. Say, like the modern English version, which is great if you love the King James. That's awesome. You use that.

I prefer that to the New King James. But it's a brand new version that's kind of not, it may be a little closer to some of the Jewish traditions of the Old Testament, but it has over 60,000 translation notes and interpreted and background notes, or not background notes, excuse me, language notes that are really, really helpful. And that's free online, the NET.

So thank you, Stephen, for the call. And if you check my website, thelineoffire.org, thelineoffire.org, and just type in translations, do a search, you'll find past broadcasts where we majored on that.

So thank you for the call. Hey, Craig, one last minute before we're done. If If you have any hope in all the hours that you spent, the years, the decades working on Bible background and now putting this all into the notes in a study Bible, what's your ultimate goal in this? When I've When I first discovered that that Bible background actually made a difference in understanding some passages. I think We've got to get this into people's hands.

Now the background commentary has done well. I think it's like But in terms of getting the background understanding into everybody's hands. Um I mean Not all All these notes are necessary to understand. You don't have to know that much about Pontius Pilate or so on to really understand the text.

Some of them really make a difference. And I I really want to see I really want to see people be able to have access to Bible background, just like we have access to good translations. Yeah, excellent. You know, and I'll look at news headlines constantly, and sometimes they make no sense unless I have the background. And, you know, I was reading about Brexit.

What's Brexit?

Well, I had to look it up. And then when I go over to India, even though I may read a newspaper in English, it's a different style or in Nigeria. And it's like, okay, what does that mean? Ah, and then it comes to light.

So to bring to light the living word of the living God. Hey, Craig, thanks for your time today. Thanks for your efforts. And I pray this will bless millions of people. Amen.

It's always a blessing to be with you, my brother. All right. Look forward to seeing you again. Friends, be sure to check out our brand new line of fire website, thelineoffire.org. Thelineoffire.org.

My bottom line today, oh, how about echoing Psalm 119, 105? Your word is a lamp to my feet, a light to my path.