Christians and the Law

So where do believers stand with the law of Moses? What is required? What is not required? How do we relate to the Torah? Uh It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Well, we're going to touch on a very important subject, a subject always fraught with passionate opinions, a lot of controversy, but an important subject nonetheless. Believers in the law, believers in the Torah of Moses, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, where do we stand concerning the law, the Sinai covenant? Where do we stand in terms of the Ten Commandments, the dietary laws, the calendar, the Sabbath in particular? Is this something mandatory on all believers? Is this something that ended with the cross?

Is this something only for Jewish believers? Is it pick and choose? Is it whatever the Lord tells us? Are there universal things for everyone? We'll talk about it today and a bunch of other subjects.

866-348-7884. Remember to call 866-34TRUTH. You can weigh in on this subject or Any Jewish-related question you have of any kind, be it the Hebrew language, be it regarding Judaism and Jewish tradition. regarding messianic prophecy, be it regarding the modern state of Israel and how that relates to the Bible or just questions about Israel today, give me a call, eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four. And we'll do our best to get you solid answers.

All right, before I get into this focus on the Torah, on the law, even the question of how we should translate the word Torah, and again, how believers relate to that. There is a lot of controversy these days right now surrounding Hillary Clinton, surrounding the Clinton Foundation. surrounding her personal email server. and surrounding someone who has been a close co-worker Huma Abadin for years, one of Hillary's close co-workers, and there are claims that she. was the editor for a radical Islamic journal for a dozen years.

Certainly, or worked at this journal.

So, Hillary Clinton's top campaign aide, the woman who might be the future White House chief of staff to the first female U.S. President for a decade, edited a radical Muslim publication that opposed women's rights and blamed the U.S. for 9-11. Dennis, grab clip number 23. This is an official response about this, but clip number 23, let's hear this and then I'll raise some of the questions and issues.

The New York Post has been reporting on the presence of Huma Abedin for more than a decade. On the masthead of an Islamic journal that published some fairly vile things, including blaming the U.S. for 9-11 and an article by Ms. Abedin's mother, in which she wrote. that the quote, empowerment of women does more harm than benefit, unquote.

When Ms. Aberdeen was cleared to work here in the Department of State, one of the two jobs she held down during her tenure here. Was Miss Aberdeen's association with this journal known to the secretary or to anyone else in this building? James, I don't have an immediate answer for you on that. I haven't seen these reports, to be honest.

What I would say is that we wouldn't normally talk about someone's clearance process, except to say that having gone through security clearance process and Considering what sh the level of clearance she would have needed for the job she that she held, I can assure you that she was, like any individual would be, Fully vetted. Yeah, were they ignorant of her working? And as an editor, how could they be ignorant? That's a dozen years of your life. And family members of Huma Abedin, and of course, I mispronounced her name at the beginning, in keeping with my custom of generally doing that, not intentionally, but she.

Uh her her family was Involved there. She was assistant editor for the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs. She worked under her mother, who remains the editor-in-chief. She was also working in the White House as an intern for then First Lady Clinton. And that was interaction between Fox News reporter James Rosen and spokesman Mark Toner.

We'll be right back. Hey, this is Michael Brown. I want to invite you to join me for our second ever trip to Israel, February 25th through March 6th, 2017. This is a great opportunity I get to interact with you, our radio listening audience, and our ministry partners as we experience the land of Israel together and it will be a life-changer. We've got a great price on the trip.

And if you're one of our monthly supporters or torch bearers, you're eligible to receive a special discount for this once-in-a-lifetime experience. Space is limited, and we're accepting applications on a first-come, first-served basis. For more information on the trip to secure your spot, go to askdrbrown.org, click on the Israel banner, or call our office at 704-782-3760. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the line of fire 866-348-7884. Boy, I really, really hope. I really hope that you can join me in our Israel trip next year, February 25th to March 6th. Be the trip of a lifetime. You'll get to see the key sites in Israel, but beyond that, you'll connect with local believers, Jewish and Arab, in the land.

You'll get to be in different locations where I'll give special teachings. I mean, think of being on Mount Carmel where I could teach about Elijah calling down fire from heaven. You'll get to sit in, if you like, on some of our radio broadcasts, which will be done live from Israel in the evening. A great fellowship with other believers and just on every level, an amazing, amazing trip. And my dear friend, Scott Volcomb, you've heard a number of times here on the line of fire.

He'll be there with you every step of the way.

So it's really a wonderful opportunity. And it's almost September already. Yeah, we've been announcing this for a few months. We still do have space, but Yeah, it's almost September. It's going to be here before you know it.

So go to the website, askdrbrown.org, ASKDRBrown.org, and sign up for the trip today. All right. The Law of Moses, the Sinai Covenant. How do we Relate to that as followers of Jesus Yeshua today. First, the Hebrew word Torah.

Does it primarily mean law? Does it primarily mean instruction, teaching?

Sometimes it does mean law. This is the law for this. This is the law for this. In other words, these are the instructions, the authoritative instructions as to how you perform this animal sacrifice or that. It can simply mean teaching, instruction, listen to the Torah of your mother and your father, the instruction, teaching of your mother and father.

But when it's the Torah, the Torah of Moses. the Sinai covenant Torah. It's teaching with a capital T, it's instruction with a capital I. In other words, this is not just doctrine, this is authoritative divine instruction as to how to live. And the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, translated.

Torah in Hebrew with Namos. And namas means law more than it means teaching. It could also mean principle. But most Christians relate to the Torah, as if it was law, sometimes in a negative sense, whereas many Jews relate to it. As law in a positive sense, these are God's sacred instructions for the chosen people of Israel.

And we have been privileged with the The calling to observe all of his commandments, which reflect his nature and goodness. Your average Christian looks back at the law and says, Thank God I'm not under that. All those burdens, all those do's and don'ts, and things that seemed maybe even outdated. Your religious Jew says, What a great privilege to keep these. And we have an ongoing oral tradition that's been passed down and then put in writing over the years that helps us to live these things out in each generation.

And then within the body, among believers, you have those who say, We're not under any kind of law now. We're just led by the Holy Spirit. Others who say that God has written the Ten Commandments on our heart, and that's what we follow. Others who say the Ten Commandments, but the Sabbath has changed from Saturday to Sunday. Others who say, well, we're supposed to keep the Ten Commandments, dietary laws, and the feast.

Others say, well, it's fine for It's fine for Messianic Jews to keep the law because they are Jews and they want to show their own people that they're continuing to live as Jews and they love their heritage. And in fact, Jesus lived and died as a Torah observant Jew, and he said explicitly that he's not here to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill. And therefore, we should follow in those footsteps and live the way the first apostles lived, which they continue to live as Jews. And then others who say, well, no, Messianic Jews must. If they want to be in obedience to the Lord, they must observe the Torah.

not for justification, but for obedience. And Gentiles, if they want to join in, that's fine, but it's mandatory for Messianic Jews. And then there are others who say, no, the entire law is mandatory for all believers. That God never changed, that this was his eternal covenant, and that now through the new covenant we receive forgiveness of sins, but the laws are written in our hearts, and everyone has to keep them. If you don't keep all the law, you're in sin.

You have this whole range from no law. to all the law. and lots of discussion and endless books written. and a lot of controversy in the body today.

So I want to sort this out. as as best as we can. I want to lay out my own view, and I want to encourage you to walk these things out prayerfully.

Now some would say, well, it's settled. Jesus says, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. Those who love me keep my commandments. That settles it.

Well Not so quickly. What did he mean when he said my commandments? Wasn't he talking about the commandments that he gave? Wasn't he talking about the things that he taught? Wasn't he talking about love one another and things like that?

And abide in me, and go and make disciples of the nations. Isn't that what he was talking about? What was he saying? If you love me, you'll keep my commandments, which include the ritual cleansing of someone with a severe skin disease. Is that what he's talking about?

Or calling a priest, a Levitical priest, into your house to examine the house if there was mildew. And if you don't do that, then you don't love me. And if you don't stone and put to death your rebellious, disobedient, unrepentant teenager, you don't love me, is that what he was saying?

Well, you know, keeping his commandments. Yeah, yeah, but commandments don't just mean all of the Torah necessarily.

Well, they have to mean the Ten Commandments. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe not. When I read Jesus saying, if you love me, you keep my commandments, I hear him talking about the things that he taught, the things that he instructed.

The question is, what did he mean when he said he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill? What do you mean by that? What did he mean when when he said that not one jot or a tittle will pass from the law, so so not the smallest letter or the the least stroke of a pen? will pass away from the law until everything was fulfilled. Uh did he mean that He was going to fulfill it all through his lifetime.

And through his death on the cross and through his righteous life, he now brought it to fulfillment. Those are fair questions to ask. And then how did the first Jewish believers live? How do the first Gentile believers live? What does that imply for us?

today and what about what Paul wrote? Oh, Paul had a lot of things to say about this. I mean, for for example, He says in Ephesians 2. For he himself, Jesus himself, is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier. The dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in its flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace. and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross by which he put to death their hostility, So did he abolish in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations? Romans 3:20, Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 6:14, Sin shall not be your master because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 7, 5, and 6, For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for death.

But now by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the loss that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. That seems like Paul's saying the law is done with. But then how about this? About verses like Romans 2.13, for it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. How about Romans 2.25?

Circumcision has value if you observe the law. But if you break the law, you become as though you had not been circumcised. Romans 6:15, What then shall we sin? Because we're not under law, but under grace? By no means.

About Romans 7, various verses there. What shall we say then? Is the law sinned? Certainly not.

So then the law is holy and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. How about Romans 10, 4 in the Jewish New Testament for the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. How about this? 1 Corinthians 9, 8, and 9. Do I say this merely from a human point of view?

Doesn't the law say the same thing? For it is written in the law of Moses, which he proceeds to quote. 1 Timothy 1.8, We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

So how do we set uh these things together side by side and understand What Paul's really saying, what Jesus is really saying. I know there's a lot of debate and discussion, but we'll flesh it out. What's your take? 866-34Truth. Are Christians required to obey the law of Moses or any part of it?

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire, 86634Truth. This is Michael Brown. It is Thurly Jewish Thursday. We're talking about believers and the law. Let me make a few statements and then we'll take your calls.

We'll interact on the subject. I'm going to be in and out of this subject for two full hours.

So, to get the entire broadcast, just go to the radio website thelineoffire.org. We've completely revamped it. It's beautiful. It's sharp. We'll give you the latest cutting-edge commentary on what's happening in the world around us and all of our radio archives.

So, you will be blessed to. To check out the new website. We're so thrilled with the new look and feel and accessibility of everything there.

So do check it out. And to one of my longtime faithful listeners and old friends, Jane, I'm sure by now you've connected and you are listening. Onto the archive.

So wonderful to have you as a longtime faithful listener and former student from many, many years ago.

Okay, just wanted to throw that in there on a personal level.

So I want to lay out just some basic understanding that I have of this. All right. And then we'll interact on specifics. And unless you hold a position. That is a radical divisive position that damns others in the body for differing with your position.

Unless that's your place, I would say, okay, we can agree to disagree. We can have different perspectives on this. If you are damning others in the body for not holding to your particular perspective of the law, that's when I would say it becomes dangerous. That would be my bigger issue.

So a few things. Number one, If Jesus came as a lawbreaker himself, he could not have been the Messiah. That should be self-evident. If it would be like someone today claiming that they are the second coming of Jesus and saying the New Testament is a work of fiction and Jesus never rose from the dead. You say, well, that's completely impossible and contradictory.

Exactly.

So the idea that the Jewish Messiah would come as a lawbreaker, that the Jewish Messiah would come and would sinfully cast off God's commandments, that would be a complete contradiction, no matter what miracles he worked. Deuteronomy 13 warns about a prophet who prophesies or a miracle worker who works miracles. And they say, follow other gods, gods that neither you nor your fathers have followed. You put that person to death. That's a false prophet.

God's testing you to see if you're really devoted to him.

So, in the same way, if Yeshua the Messiah came and said, Okay, we're just throwing out all the laws. All right, eat whatever in the world you want to eat and forget about the Sabbath, and you want to worship other gods. Hey, have at it. We have liberty now.

Well, then, obviously, he could not have been the Messiah. You said, yeah, but he had conflict with religious leaders, yeah, but that was about their interpretation of the law. That was about their traditions that sometimes got in the way of the law. But he himself did not break his father's commandments. He himself did not abolish the Torah, but bring it to fulfillment.

How did he bring it to fulfillment?

Well, everything that had to do with our access to God that was under the Sinai covenant, blood atonement. A priesthood. Uh forgiveness of sins. All those things that had to do with our access to God, he brought to fulfillment. We don't need a temple.

We don't need priests. We don't need these earthly mediators. We have one mediator between God and man, the man, Messiah, Jesus. And he is our great high priest. And he is the final atoning sacrifice that the human race needs.

So in that sense, he brings that to fulfillment. The calendar of Israel, he brings to its fulfillment, and that which remains to be fulfilled will be fulfilled with his return.

So it is first coming. He fulfilled. Passover. And first fruits, and Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks. With his return, he will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement in terms of national cleansing for Israel and tabernacles, the end-time world harvest of the nations.

It doesn't mean that we don't celebrate those days. It means that their fullest meaning is found in him. That they have a past with Israel, but they also have a past with the Messiah and a future with the Messiah and Israel. He takes the moral commandments to a higher level. Instead of don't commit adultery, don't commit adultery in your heart, don't murder, don't hate in your heart, each one taken to another level.

And then there were various other laws that were. Laws having to do with how Israel lived within the land that did not apply the same way outside of the land or that simply applied to certain culture and custom of that day. And we learned from that, but those things were never to be binding on all the nations per se. Even things like the dietary laws, while not abolishing them, he shows that they were ultimately pointing to a separation between Jew and Gentile, which now disappears with the cross, where we don't lose our identity and distinctiveness, but we become one. In the Messiah.

So the Sinai covenant. And all of that which the prophets were speaking of, these things find their fullness and their fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah. Not just the law, but the law and the prophets. Prophets, and now through him we live out the full meaning of these things. But bear in mind, the Sinai covenant was not given to all the nations, and it has been replaced with a newer and better covenant in which the righteous principles of the law have been written on our hearts.

Now, having said that, If you feel led of the Lord as a Jewish believer, to be deeply connected with your people. To continue to transmit certain traditions that you find life-giving to your children and their children, that you recognize the importance of the biblical calendar and find beauty in the seventh-day Sabbath, and it helps you identify with our people. And God has written that on your heart, not for justification, not for justification, but rather. part of your identity, covenant, solidarity with Israel. Wonderful.

Praise God. As long as you don't judge others in the body, as long as you don't don't Require Gentiles to do that. And if you're a Gentile believer and say, hey, I feel grafted into Israel, and this is just stuff very specially. I love going to a messianic congregation. I find it more meaningful to celebrate the feasts and seventh-day Sabbath and a Sunday service and Christmas and Easter.

Hey, God bless you. as long as you don't judge others or begin to say that it's mandatory. But I do not find a New Testament commandment that says seventh-day Sabbath is mandatory for the entire world, or that the dietary laws are mandatory for the entire world. Those who feel led to live by them, wonderful. But our primary identification is in Yeshua, in Jesus, not in keeping these laws or commandments.

We'll interact, we'll flesh this out some more. And again, you can get the entire broadcast at thelineofire.org. All right. This is a great day to take advantage of a very special resource offer. All five of my volumes on answering Jewish objections to Jesus, the most important contribution that I've made in Jewish ministry in my entire lifetime.

All five volumes at a reduced price. And in addition to that, we're giving you a great DVD of answers to common questions. First time we've put this out on a DVD. And we're paying the postage as well. Take advantage of this, especially on Thursday, Jewish Thursday.

Go right now to Ask Dr. Brown. This is on intranet only, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, askdrbrown.org. Order right there. You'll be blessed, and you will be a blessing to many others.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

348-7884, Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us. on the line of fire. I've done all the talking the first 30 minutes. Let us go to the phone starting in Washington, DC.

John, welcome to the line of fire. Are you there, John?

Well, I won't go to Washington, D.C. I'm going to continue doing the talking. I find it very interesting. That There has been a A noticeable shift In many in the body, in the 45 years now that I've been with the Lord. When I came to faith.

In the circles I was in, which were very, very limited, I was not traveling widely and didn't know people in many other parts of the body. But as I did meet more people at college, things like that, and then started to travel in more circles, pretty much everybody I knew. pretty much everybody I knew. Agreed that Sunday was the day that we worshiped, whether it was a special day or not, that it had. That that the seventh day Sabbath was not for Christians and that the dietary laws were not for Christians.

And that those were vestiges of the law of Moses. And you had groups like Seventh-day Adventists, and they still said you keep Sabbath and dietary laws and stuff like that, but that otherwise you didn't hear. Of messianic congregations. There was no such thing in my circles when I came to faith. And I was saved over a decade before I went to my first Messianic Jewish service.

I knew about Jews for Jesus. I knew them as an evangelistic group, but they didn't have a theological position on these things. And many of them were working actively in churches and with churches.

So they would do a Christ in the Passover presentation, showing Jesus in the Seder, in the traditional Jewish Passover, and feeling that there was imagery in there pointing to the Messiah. But I didn't know of people that said, well, we're Jewish believers in Jesus and we worship on Saturday instead of on Sunday and we keep the biblical calendar rather than the later church calendar. I didn't know anybody like that. Basically, in my world, they didn't exist. And when I first started hearing about them, About a decade plus later, I question, is this God?

Is this right? And you know, aren't you going back under the law? And and All all the more I did not know which you call mainstream Christians. Gentile believers. Who held to all the fundamentals of the faith, belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, belief in his atoning sacrifice.

Belief that salvation was only found through him, belief in the authority of the New Testament, along with the Old Testament, etc., who also felt. And they weren't part of Seventh-day Adventists. They didn't believe in the teaching of Ellen White, anything like that. But they also felt that, yeah, the Sabbath is. is on Saturday.

or dietary laws, hey, those are not just for Israel. or we should keep the biblical calendar. I didn't know of people like that.

Now, there really has been a shift. The rise of Messianic Jewish congregations, although the great majority of them are fairly small, the rise of Messianic Jewish congregations around the world has reminded the church that a Jew doesn't have to stop being a Jew when the Jew comes to faith in Jesus. that a Jew who's embraced the Jewish Messiah is even more Jewish than before. and may find even deeper solidarity with his or her people than before.

So that to and that there's nowhere in the New Testament that this says the Sabbath has become Sunday. There's nowhere is that written in the New Testament.

So, these witnesses of the Messianic Jewish congregations have gone a long way to sending. A message to the larger church. Yeah, you can be Jewish and believe in Jesus. And many Gentile believers have said, hey, These were wonderful things that God gave to Israel. We don't look at them as bondage or negative.

Why can't we participate? And of course, they can. Unfortunately, like anything people go from one extreme to another extreme We just want to do our best to land right in the middle of what God's Word says as best. as we can. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire on this Thurly Jewish Thursday, 866-348-7884. Why does Paul seem to write negatively about the law? What he's writing about is a misuse of the law. What he's writing about is Gentile believers being told that they must obey the law of Moses and be circumcised in order to be saved. What he's objecting to is A misunderstanding of the purpose of the law.

which he recognizes Is wholly just and good, the law itself, the divine instruction, wholly, just and good, and spiritual. But as my guest yesterday, Dr. Craig Keener, said, the law can inform us about what's right and wrong, but in and of itself cannot transform us. That's where we need the new birth. That's where we need life in the spirit.

That's where we need this new and better covenant, where we are pronounced forgiven through what Jesus did and now liberated. Into divine service through the power of the cross, and the power of the resurrection, and the power of the Spirit.

So Paul is dealing with abuses. He's dealing with a misunderstanding of the law. And he says in Romans 3 that a purpose of the law was to declare every mouth guilty. The purpose of God's teaching through Moses was to declare every mouth guilty, excuse me, shut every mouth, declare every person guilty, because when we seek to live by the law, we fall short. And when you look in the five books of Moses, what do you see?

The constant sins and failings of Israel, then Moses predicting at the end of Deuteronomy: this is what you've done during my lifetime, you're going to be even worse afterwards. And then the Hebrew scriptures showing the persistent failings of the people of Israel and Judah and the desperate need for. Redeemer. And this is now what paves the way, prepares the way for the Messiah to come.

Now that He's come. The righteous principles of the law are written in our heart. We learn from every word of what's written. In that sense, not a jot or tittle, not the smallest letter, least stroke of the pen, departs from the law, vanishes until everything is fulfilled. And this is now the foundation on which the new covenant writings are built.

But it does not mean that you go back and look at every aspect of the Sinai Covenant and said, oh, we're obligated to live by that. Oh, if we don't practice the rules of ritual purity for a woman during her monthly cycle, then we're in disobedience to God. If it's not exactly the way it's written, if she doesn't go through the same purification, oh, after a child's born, I have to go through these various purification rites. And by the way, I'm not talking about. Intimacy during that time of the month.

I believe for other reasons scripture is against that. I'm talking about all the purification rituals surrounding it. And well, if someone doesn't keep the Sabbath, seventh-day Sabbath, they should be put to death.

So we'd like to put them to death, but we can't. No, I mean, no, no, no, that's not the purpose of it. That's not the purpose of it.

So it stands with divine authority. We have to ask: what is the divine purpose in it? and how do we now walk under the new and better covenant. And how do we distinguish between that which was given to Israel to keep them separate from the nations and that which applies to all believers? Eight six six three.

3-4 truth. All right, trying to reconnect with John in Washington, D.C. Welcome to the line of fire. Yes, John, are you there? This is odd.

I Sorry, but not sure what's going on, buddy. I know you're trying to call back and connect, but somehow. Either you're speechless once you get on the air. or something's up with your phone connection, but we cannot hear. What you want to say.

I hope it's worthy. But we can't hear it. All right, we do our best, though, especially when someone gets cut off for whatever reason. We do our best to get them right back on if possible.

So let's think through a couple of specific issues. If you want to argue That All of us are required to keep the law of Moses. I guarantee you you are going down a dangerous path. which is going to lead to lots of problems. It's going to lead to legalism.

Is going to lead to taking your attention away from Yeshua Jesus as central. You say, oh, no, no, he's all over the world. I'm just telling you. I'm telling you from decades of experience. I'm telling you from spiritual principles that I understand.

If you're going to say everyone is obligated to keep the law of Moses. Everyone is obligated to keep the law of Moses. Talking about all followers of Jesus. And if they don't, they'll be judged. I'm telling you, you're heading down a dangerous path without any New Testament support whatsoever.

You are misunderstanding the work of Yeshua. You are misunderstanding the new and better covenant that God has made. You are misunderstanding the nature of life in the Spirit. If, on the flip side, your position is No believer should observe the seventh-day Sabbath. That is sin if they do it.

Your position is believers who observe the dietary laws are living in bondage, etc. If if you hold to those views, well, you're you're wrong as well. We are free in that sense in the Messiah. You are absolutely free to observe the dietary laws. If you say, hey, God gave me Israel, there must be a good reason for it.

And I know some of the items on the list there. Are dangerous or unhealthy, I should say, and therefore I'm not going to eat them.

Well, fine. God bless you. And if you say, you know, I see the Sabbath before the Sinai Covenant, And it seems to be a gift and something beautiful and wonderful. And I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where it changed.

So I know church tradition developed to celebrate the day of the resurrection of the Messiah. Hence Sunday. And of course, Muslims they have their holy day on Friday, and Jews on Saturday, Christians on Sunday, so that it separates all the religions, etc. Where is that written in the New Testament? Where is that required in the New Testament that believers worship on Sunday?

There's nothing that says it. There's nothing That says it.

So Question then comes up. All right. Are you free to observe the seventh-day Sabbath? Sure, you are. Jew or Gentile?

Sure, you are. Are you free to observe the dietary laws? Sure you are. Jew or Gentile. Are you free to follow the biblical calendar?

as opposed to to a later Christian calendar? Sure you are. Jew or Gentile. Are you free to judge others if they don't see it the same way? No.

Uh-uh. because there is not Scripture that addresses it in that way. Scripture gives liberty. You say it's just pick and choose. No, it's not pick and choose.

We are saved out of different circumstances. We have different callings. We have different backgrounds. And God is working out His divine principles in all of us, and none of us. Can can Have the right to disobey.

what is plainly written reinforced from the Old Testament to the new. Which is written as universal in the Old Testament. In other words, this is for everybody. This is truth for everybody, and then reinforced in the New Testament. No, we don't just pick and choose.

But Paul writes in 1 Corinthians the seventh chapter that everyone should remain in the calling in which they were called when they were saved.

So, if someone gets saved as a Gentile, they ought not to become a Jew. It doesn't mean you can't observe certain things or keep certain things, but don't try to become a Jew. If you're a Jew, don't try to become a Gentile. You're saved out of different backgrounds. You can now break that down even more: that many of us were saved out of specific backgrounds, and we put aside the sin part, but other parts, it's fine that we live differently in these ways.

That's part of the unity we have in the body. It is a diversity that we have in unity. All right, let us go to the phones. We'll start in Houston. Mario, welcome to the line of fire.

Hey, doctor Brown, how's it going? Very well, thanks. All right. Well, first, I just want to say I got to thank God that you are bringing up this topic because this is a great topic that you're bringing up. Everything that you just said, I Thoroughly agree with 100%.

Awesome. That makes a difference. You mentioned earlier uh something about You know, when when People trying to tell you that Christians are required to keep the law and things of that nature, right?

Well I used to be a long while back, used to be a part of a uh Armstrongism group there that would teach this And earlier in the show, you mentioned how people try to. uh bring up something about um You know, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments and things of that nature.

Well, one of the ways, and I'm sure you probably heard this, but I'm hoping you can kind of clear this up too. Uh one of the ways that they would try to say That this is referring back to the laws and the Ten Commandments and things like that, is they would point to. Malachi 3. uh verse six and also Hebrews thirteen verse eight, and where you have in Malachi it says, for I am the Lord, I do not change. And then in Hebrews it says, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

And so their point would be like, well, Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, and both of these, both the New and the Old Testament, say he doesn't change. And so if he doesn't change, then that means his. you know, his position's not going to change and things of that nature.

So And that's the fundamental error there. Your mom and dad may be the same mom and dad. They may not change. But they treat you one way when you're two, another way when you're eight. The other way when you're 15.

Another way when you're 30, you have a different relationship with them. And there are things that happen that are different in that relationship. And there were times before the Sinai Covenant, the times after. We'll continue. God of light And here I It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire, 866-34-TRUTH.

So, Mario, just to finish up, the idea that God is the same has absolutely no relevance to whether he deals with people the same in every generation. For example, before the Sinai covenant, With Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he didn't have all the laws and requirements for them. Those things come later with the Sinai covenant. And then in the eternal age, are we thinking that in the eternal age that there's going to be a death penalty for various things? No, no, obviously not.

You know, that's not even going to be needed in the world to come.

So just as God deals with his people differently over the generations, and then certain things are always, the same way a parent deals with children differently over a period of generations and other things are always, that's how it is when it comes to the law. And Paul's quite plain about this in. the third chapter of Galatians, as I talked with Dr. Craig Keener yesterday, the law was our pedagogue. to lead us to the Messiah.

But now that the Messiah has come, we don't need the pedagogue any longer. Or as Paul wrote to the Colossians, that the Sabbath was the shadow. The substance is in Jesus, Yeshua.

So these are things very simply explained. And if they want to say, well, God's the same, okay, well then anyone who doesn't observe the seventh-day Sabbath should be put to death, and an adulterer should be put to death, and a witch should be put to death. And you just go down the list, you know, and and and if you you have a brother and that that uh you're married, you have a brother who's married, he dies without having children, then you, the brother, you have to marry the second wife, and your first child born through her is now going to be uh.

Now, going to be in his name, because that's all part of the law. Obviously, people pick and choose, and the Armstrong group would have done the same.

So, glad you're not part of that any longer. And, of course, very, very wrong interpretation of those verses. Thanks for raising them on the air. Appreciate it very much. 866-34Truth.

We go to Portland, Oregon. Robert, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. Listen, with your knowledge of languages, I was hoping you could answer a question.

About Genesis fifteen, where the word of God appears to Abraham. for Abraham at the time. how that relates to the Discourse in the prologue of the Gospel of John on the Word of God. Let's make sure how that relates.

Now those two relate to uh the law and uh grace.

Okay, I don't follow the part about how it relates to law and grace. I'm not clear. under the law, at least the perception is that God definitely won a unity. And then one of the issues seems to be historically in the church that The perception of God has changed. Uh apart from the law.

Or I'd Right, okay, so yeah, let me address that more broadly than Robert. I appreciate the question. The fact of the matter is that just using the Hebrew scriptures We can see that there is one God, but He's complex in His unity. We see, for example, that he speaks to Abraham in human form. In Genesis the 18th chapter, there's extended conversation, interaction.

The Lord comes, the Lord goes. together with two angels who then go on to Sodom. We see that on the one hand, God tells Israelites don't come near Mount Sinai, and notice you haven't seen any forum on Mount Sinai. And yet. Moses, Aaron, Nadav, Abihu, and 70, the elders of Israel in Exodus 24, they see the God of Israel.

on Mount Sinai. We see on the one hand that God sits enthroned in heaven. On the other hand, that His Spirit works among us, that His presence, His glory would fill the tabernacle, and that at times He could appear and be seen on the earth, whereas Others understood to see him. would be to die.

So how do we put all these things together? We understand that he's complex in his unity. And perhaps verses like let us make man in our image, point to him being complex in his unity.

Now that the Messiah comes, things become more clear.

Now that the Messiah comes, we understand that God has revealed Himself to us as Father, Son, and Spirit. and that the Sun is the one who is seen. And this is reiterated in the New Testament, John 1, no one has seen God at any time. Amazing. The same gospel that tells us.

If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father, but no one's actually literally seeing the Father, no human being. And then 1 Timothy 6. that God dwells in unapproachable light. No one has seen him. Or can see him.

And yet the sun is the one who makes him known.

So John 1.18. That the one and only Son who's in the bosom of the Father, He has made The Father known. He has made God known. He is God and He is with God.

So, what we see is that the Father is the source of all things. From Him everything comes, and He is hidden. He is hidden in His glory and His splendor. He reveals Himself to us through His Son, the one and the same God, the one true God. He reveals Himself to us through His Son.

Who we now come to know and adore. And when we see him, we see the Father. And His Spirit, who's working invisibly behind the scenes, His Spirit comes and works on the earth and leads us and teaches us and guides us and speaks through us and things like that.

So, one God, Father, Son, Spirit, the Father, the source of all things, who is hidden in His glory, the Son, who makes him known.

So, in the Old Testament, who would they see? Who would they see on Mount Sinai? Who would they see? Who did the prophet Isaiah see in Isaiah 6? Who did Ezekiel see in Ezekiel 1?

They would have seen the Son because it is the Son's role to make the Father known. And then the Spirit. Continues to do his work among us, but just in a more forthright and abundant way with the outpouring of the Spirit in our midst. As far as law and grace, You could say that the uh although the The God of the Old Testament, the Heavenly Father, is compassionate and long-suffering. You have glorious portions like Psalm 103 that speak of his incredible mercy and goodness and grace and kindness and gentleness.

But you might think of his acts of judgment being more prominent, and that would primarily be because of Israel's sin. When we see the revelation of the New Testament, one and the same God, the greater emphasis is on the ministry of the Son, but yes, sent by the Father.

So one and the same God, not schizophrenic. And hence the law was given by Moses, John 1:17, grace and truth came through Jesus the Messiah.

So there is law in the teaching of Jesus, there was grace. under the law of Moses, yet the greater emphasis now. is on grace because the greater emphasis is on the Son. As long as we understand, though, it's the Son who makes the Father known.

So Luke 16, the law and prophets were until John. Since then, the kingdom of God is preached. and everyone is pressing into it. But that doesn't mean that the law and the prophets are abolished. It means that they are now Fulfilled, and that which they spoke of, that which they point to, that which is their job to testify to.

That is now solidified. It is as Paul writes in Romans 3: we don't abolish the law by faith, rather, we establish it.

So now, built on that foundation. The messianic era unfolds through. the sun And based on your question, I trust that my answer will make sense to you. Remember, friends. Time to sign up for the Israel trip.

The clock is ticking and space is limited. Do it at the website. AskDrBrown.org, check out our special resource offer. My bottom line, put Jesus first. Tora is your foundation.

So, where do believers stand with the law of Moses? What is required? What is not required? How do we relate to the Torah? No.

It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We just spent an hour talking about the Torah, the law of Moses, divine instruction, and believers today. We're going to continue that discussion into this next hour. And I want to bring on a guest who has... Explored this issue for many years, has continued to grow and develop in his thinking on these issues as I have, as hopefully we all do as we grow in the Lord. And has a fascinating new book to talk about.

So, if you want to weigh in, if you have a question about believers and the law of Moses, what's required, what's not required, is that even a wrong question to ask under grace? What does it mean to be under grace and not under law? How do believers relate to things like the Sabbath and dietary laws? Is it different for a Jew? Is it different for a Gentile?

We will talk about those things.

So, good time to call in now. We'll get your calls in a little while. 866-34Truth-866-348-7884. But I want to go first to my guest, Boaz Michael. Firstfruits of Zion is his ministry.

And it's one that many find tremendously enriching as it points to Jewish background to many interesting things in scripture and talks about the beauty and meaning of the law for today. Others say, No, no, they're going back under the law, trying to bring others under the law.

So we've got Boaz as we'll sort Boaz. We'll sort that out, and then I want to talk about an Important new book with my guests.

So, Boaz, great to have you on the line of fire. Where are you right now? I'm in Jerusalem in my home. All right. How long have you lived in Jerusalem?

We've been here now for about the past three years, full-time and about six. Shears off and on part-time. Got it. And tell our listeners about First Fruits of Zion, what you do with that. First Design is a Messianic Jewish educational organization.

Our mission is to bring Messianic Jewish teachings to Christians and Jews. We feel that understanding the Bible from a Messianic Jewish perspective. Um the unification of the Bible, the continued relevance of God's Covenant with the Jewish people. God continued to work with the Jewish people. All of these things and more, reflect on our reading of the Bible and give us.

a deeper understanding of the Bible, a deeper look of God's plan, both for Jews and for Gentiles. his plan for the Messianic Kingdom. It's forthcoming So our organization develops a tremendous amount of books and resources and commentaries Uh that helps believers understand the Bible from a Messianic Jewish perspective. All right, and we've only got about a minute now before this first break, so we'll come to this on the other side of the break. Then I want to talk about an important new book, a biography.

But with any belief, With any practice, there are always extremes. There are always potential pitfalls on either side of the road, ditches we can fall into on either side of the road. And the one ditch that can happen is that once we recover. many Jewish roots of the faith. One ditch we can fall into is the ditch of going backwards and taking our eyes off Yeshua.

and other things become central and other things become more important. And then the ditch where now everybody is required to obey the law of Moses, and if they don't, they're in sin. And yet, if we can stay on the road and not fall into the ditch, there's tremendous enriching of our lives, both for Jewish and Gentile believers.

So, we come back. I want to take a minute and have you comment on those two ditches because since you've been called to walk this road, you obviously have seen people that have fallen into ditches on the other side. What's a healthy way to avoid that? And then, then want to get into this new book, an important new biography.

So, we'll be talking with Boaz Michael, First Fruits of Zion, live in Jerusalem. And then, in a little while, we'll take your calls as well at 866-348-7884. We'll be right back. Change the world. Ain't the world.

Roll God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm actually holding in my hands two books. In the Messianic Luminaries series produced by First Fruits of Zion. One window on Mount Zion, Pauline Rose, and then the Siege of Jerusalem, selected writings of Pauline Rose. We'll find out who Pauline is and why this is of interest to the body today. Published by Vine of David, which is part of First Fruits of Zion.

And I'm speaking with Boaz Michael, who's the founder and director of First Fruits of Zion, living in Jerusalem now.

So, Boaz, over the years, I'm sure you've seen this, where people get so caught up with Jewishness. They take their eyes off Jesus Yeshua. And then you've seen people who get so excited about. The beauty of the Torah and the law of Moses is that they now say it's mandatory for all believers to live by Torah or else they're in disobedience.

So how do we avoid these ditches on either side of the road as we recover Jewish roots and messianic Jewish truths?

Well, I think some of the ability to avoid it is somewhat impossible because I think it goes to the core of human nature to go to extremes. and also to go from thing to thing. I agree with you. I've certainly seen in my life people that have embraced An understanding of the Bible from a Messianic Jewish perspective. And they do, they certainly do lose sight of Messiah.

things like the Sabbath or dietary laws they become the most important thing in their life. That's what they argue with everyone about. They judge everyone through those lenses. those become more important to them. Halakha, Love.

Understanding those things become more important than issue. And I've certainly seen that many times throughout my life and my work at First Read Design as well.

However, I've also seen thousands and thousands of Christians and also Jews. that have begun to read the Bible from a Messianic Jewish perspective, that their relationship with Yeshua has deepened and has enhanced and he becomes more centralized and more glorified. in their walk because they understand him Better.

So I see both sides of it, and that's the struggle because an organization like ours that wants to teach Messianic Judaism perspective in scriptures from this point of view because we see a value in it. We see it increasing people's understanding of our Messiah, of our God. of God's relationship with Israel and nations. Um we do walk a fine line, and I've seen it work both ways. But I think I've certainly seen more people's lives enhanced through these types of teaching has been than the few that have kind of decentralized Ishua.

But I also agree that there is a tendency uh for Gentiles to begin to see That Jesus didn't do away with the law. I believe that's a perspective that you share. And um But they don't know how to kind of mitigate that as Gentiles. They don't know, they don't reconcile. That reality with the reality of what Paul is teaching about the nations, about Christians, and their relationship to the law.

And Paul and the Apostles, from our perspective, certainly did not bind the nations to the Torah to obligate them to keep the laws of Sabbath or the laws of Kashrut or the laws of the festivals or these types of things.

So they're not bound by that. But Paul also says that the Torah is good and holy and right.

So every law that God has established for the people of Israel There's a sense of holiness, a s a value, a discipline about that.

So in Christians out of their free will or their choice. begin to bring those into their life and allow those discipline those laws to shape and inform their life. Um And they do that out of love of God and out of discipleship to Yeshua. I think there's value in that. But again, we walk a very fine line because you can easily cross over to Judging other Christians that aren't keeping the Sabbath or judging other Christians that are not.

um eating according to the laws of of kosher. And that's improper because those Christians Are not bound in the same manner as the Jewish people to Those Laws.

Now, how how do you understand Jewish people to be quote Bound, since we're not under the Sinai covenant, but under a new and better covenant. Is it your position that a Jewish believer that, say, was fairly nominal growing up, and get saved in a church setting and for them Sunday is the Sabbath and and dietary law is really not not an issue in their lives. In in your mind, is that person somehow in disobedience to God or is that simply between them and God? I believe that Acts twenty one is a text that really informs my understanding in this area. Acts twenty-one, you know, the apostles are reviewing the Acts fifteen decision, which was the decision regarding Gentiles are no longer are Gent not no longer, but Gentiles are not bound by the law.

And in Acts twenty one, you know, the apostles you know, testify of the number of Jews that were in Jerusalem That were disciples of Yeshua, but also zealous for the Torah. And th this the the text relates that the apostles were concerned that That those Jewish believers had heard that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake the law. And to no longer circumcise their children. And they asked Paul to clarify that, which he did. And then they reiterate the four commandments for the nations at the conclusion of Acts twenty one.

Um So From my reading of Acts 21, the apostles still understood. Post resurrection post ascension that the Jewish people Jews that believed in Yeshua as the Messiah. We're still um part of the covenant that God made at Sinai. That the They to live out a life of faithfulness to God. They would be in covenant fidelity with the laws of the Torah.

Yes, so our position is that Jewish people that believe in Yeshua Um should be Learning, growing, discipling, transforming their lives to conform to. the laws of the laws that are applicable, the laws that are that are available to us today to employ those into their life as best as they're able.

Now, as you live in Jerusalem right now, you're aware that for a traditional Jew, if you're not living by Jewish tradition, if you're not under the authority of the rabbis, if you're not living out the Torah as understood by the voices of Jewish tradition, and that would be reflected in specific Additions to the law or unique interpretations to the law that you're not. living as an authentic Jew. And of course, the vast majority of Messianic Jews in Israel and elsewhere are not putting themselves under the authority of the rabbis. They might find beautiful things they learn from, but they're not putting themselves under the authority of the rabbis. What kind of spiritual pressure is there living in a place like Jerusalem with so many religious Jews that are there?

And they would, aside from the fact that they view your faith in Jesus as idolatrous and sinful, etc., what kind of spiritual pressure is there?

Well I I'm not sure if I feel spiritual pressure personally very often. I mean, I I I attend A methodic synagogue when I'm able. I also attend the synagogue in my neighborhood when I can most of the time. Um And when I go and I pray with the Jewish people and I'm you know, a part of the people. I'm praying out of the Sadur, which, you know, is the vast majority of it is just the the scriptures compiled in a in a meaningful and beautiful way.

And I also understand that I mean, I also understand the issue of You know, the traditions and the halacha and the minhagim and all the different. rulings and and and um applications of the Torah. Um And you know, I I really feel that Messiah Judaism Needs to be a part of that discussion. I think we have a lot of perspective to bring in regards to. Um understanding the law.

Understanding it in a way that doesn't diminish the scriptures but upholds the scriptures. And I would love to see more Messianic Jews kind of a part of that dialogue, but many Messianic Jews Just reject The authority altogether. And when they do that, they're kind of just stepping out of the ability to engage in those. in that dialogue. And I personally find value in in in engaging in that dialogue because I feel that that that's the place in which we can help define Messianic Judaism, as it reflects to Jewish people, within the context of the greater celebration and greater honoring of the Jewish people.

Yeah, and of course, you know, the other perspective on that is That traditional Judaism has developed as it has because it rejected Yeshua and doesn't have the dynamic of life in the Spirit, and that it reflects a very different faith the way a traditional Jew would live today, as opposed to the way a Jesus follower would live today in the life of the Spirit. And the perspective would also be that. Regardless of how much we want to be incorporated in the community, our most fundamental beliefs about Yeshua would be considered in violation of rabbinic authority, etc.

So, you know, there's debate on both sides of that. I'm asking for your position, which you gave. And rather than debate that, just wanted to give you the opportunity to share that. And there are tremendous differences, including plenty of Jewish believers thriving in the church world and others in every different relationship to the Jewish community, both secular and religious. But I want, with what I'm talking about in the air today, I wanted to get another perspective, that of a Messianic Jewish leader.

Now, we're going to focus for the next few minutes on these books about and from Pauline Rose. Who is she? Why should we care? We'll be right back. It's fire we want, oh fire we Please let the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Boaz Michael in Jerusalem, sharing his Messianic Jewish perspective about the law and about Jewish believers in relationship to the law, the Torah of Moses, and how Jewish believers should relate to the Jewish community here. We have some areas of deep, deep, deep harmony, some areas of different perspective. And that's why we have these discussions on the air to help you think them through and sort them through. I was sent copies of these new books, always really nicely produced by First Fruits of Zion. Two books, Pauline Rose, Window on Mount Zion on Mount Zion, and The Siege of Jerusalem, which is selected writings of Pauline Rose.

Boaz, to be honest, I didn't know who Pauline Rose was until I got these books.

So tell me who she is and tell me why it's so important that you put these books out now.

Well, Pauline Rose is just the next book in our series of Messianic Jew a Messianic Jewish Luminary. our organization's line of gave us feel that it's very important for Messianic Judaism to have a real sense of our history. Um without a clear sense of history, oftentimes the future becomes a bit obscure. That's the part of the total. It's so middy.

Methane Jews came to faith in the eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds And they just serve as like pillars to our community. And Pauline Raws will certainly uh what are those pillars? She became a devoted disciple of Jesus, of Yeshua. She was on a spiritual journey. Her father was a rabbi.

She was born in South Africa. Married another Jewish man by the name of Albert Rose. Um They uh left South Africa sometime shortly after World War One, uh went uh both to London. I became very successful in London prior to World War two. Uh while she was in London.

she met another Jewish disciple by the name of Avram Polyak. and Avam Poyak essentially introduced her to the vision of of Messianic Judaism um taught her about discipleship to Yeshua as the Messiah. And this vision of The Methane Kingdom inspired her. This was one of the core messages of Avon Polyak. Um So Uh she came to Israel in 1946.

Uh and she was here to help establish and care for the Messianic community in in Israel at that time, or Palestine at that time. And she was in Jerusalem during the Siege of Jerusalem.

So the book Siege of Jerusalem kind of. takes account of her journey to come to uh Palestine. to establish uh Messianic Judaism, Yeshua faith, Here in the land. Um She was here until shortly after the War of Independence in 1948. get back to London to kind of uh you know, finished off her life there and then her and her husband returned to Israel in nineteen uh fifty four.

to establish their lives here. um that he had a uh a vision to build a home of presence on Mount Zion. At that time, Mount Zion was was right on the right outside of the modern day old city walls in Jerusalem. the old city was held by the Jordanians at that time, so Mount Zion was military base and no one lived on Mount Zion. But she had a a vision to um Two.

Build a garden on Mount Zion. and to establish a presence on Mount Zion. She fought through all different types of bureaucracy and government and Different issues of not having votes and those types of things, and her and her husband were able to. established a home on Mount Vion in 1958. or excuse me, nineteen sixty four.

And um in the book Window on Mount Zion is her account of establishing that home on Mount Zion and then participating from that location uh true the six-day war in nineteen sixty seven. Um Yeah. Home on Mount Zion still stands there today. Her garden is still present and flourishing and beautiful. Um It's a testament.

Her testimony remains. When you walk in the home today, You know, you go in and say, I'm here because I heard of Pauline Rose of the Israelis. and Arabs that currently occupy the home. Uh for offices. will all speak so well of her and speak of her being a Messianic Jew and her faith and those types of things.

What was it like in those early days to be a Jewish believer at the time of the pioneer pioneering of the State of Israel? I mean, you're you're talking about a handful of people that would have been Jews living in the land identifying as followers of Jesus.

So they really were true Chalachim, true pioneers. Yeah, exactly. I think a Jewish historian, Gershon Derwell, says that prior to the uh war of independence in nineteen Uh forty-eight. um but there were twenty five Basinic Jews that lived in Palestine at that time. Wow.

Um so we're talking a very, very, very small number.

Now there were more, but there was a uh uh the the the Hebrew Christian Alliance arranged a ship called the Mercy ship. that took Jewish believers And Christian missionaries out of Palestine prior to the War of Independence because they felt like after. the war, there might be persecution for Christians for believers.

So there were twenty five that apparently remained, and she came to kind of help minister to those twenty five. um believers that stayed at that time. But just two I mean two accounts that I can think of out of all the many, many wonderful and amazing miracles that took place. was in nineteen Uh nineteen Uh 1948, August of 1948, so this is several months after the War of Independence. She and the Methane community that she had formed, there were six people at that time.

They were taken captive by the Stern Gang, which was a. Jewish movement that was kind of an underground movement.

Some people would say the Stern Gang was a a Jewish terrorist organization that was working underground, so to speak. She was taken captive because of her faith. They suspected her to be a British spy because. She was from from Britain, from London. And she was also a believer.

And They helped her, um and her other five Uh uh fellow believers for several days um And her accounts are bathed in terms of being beaten and mistreated. all because of her faith, and and she tells the story. It reminds me of like reading Some of the stories of Paul in prison and stuff like that, you know, being beaten and flocked, but holding faith. It's telling other the other believers to stand strong.

So there was persecution. But there are also moments of like significant just prior to the War of Independence, she had ministered up on the Mount Zion, and there were only two families living up there at that time. She was the first family to live on Mount Zion. But they have such strong relationships with the army and different people that were coming to Mount Zion. It was an Army base that just prior to the war of independence, the Six Day War.

The commander came in and said, Look, we're going to go into the old city. You need to go to a small location. We're going to take back the old city. We're going to reunify Jerusalem. But we don't have a flag.

So she runs upstairs and Tell you what, you're not going to believe this. We're at a time.

So, to find out what happened, you gotta read the book. Yeah, I didn't set it up like that, trust me. The Siege of Jerusalem and the Window on Mount Zion find out about Pauline Rose. The messianic you are sure of the faith Paul has blessings to you. Shalom Rav in Jerusalem.

Hey friends, this is Michael Brown. I want to encourage you to join our support team today. Become a torchbearer, one of our regular monthly supporters that enables us to broadcast the line of fire around America and around the world. And oh, every month we sell back into you in many, many different ways. Join our team, become a torchbearer.

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Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us today on this thoroughly Jewish Thursday, 866. 348-7884. Do you have a Jewish-related question for me, something you'd like to sort out? We've looked at the question early in the broadcast of believers and the law of Moses. Just had a guest on who said that.

The Sinai Covenant Law of Moses, not binding on Gentile believers, but the Jewish believers, as much as is applicable, should follow it always with central focus on Yeshua. My own perspective, a little different than that. I respect those that feel called to. I would read Acts 21 ultimately in a different way in the light of unfolding history. But I respect the view that Messianic Jews are called to live as Jews, and Gentiles are not called to live as Jews.

What's important is that we have unity in Jesus, He is central. Putting our emphasis on Him, exalting Him, making Him known, and living by the high and lofty standards that God has laid out through the entire Word. We are called to do that, but specific Jewish-related things, how that applies to the whole body, how that applies to Jewish believers. That is a debate. We've laid some of our position out.

Over the months, over the years, in writing in many, many different ways. But to just catch up with everything on today's show, go to our brand new, wonderful. Website, the line of fire. Thelineoffire.org. And you can listen later today to the complete archive of this broadcast, 866-34TRUTH.

I want to go right to the phones. We'll start in Decatur, Alabama. Carl, thanks for holding for a while. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Thank you, Dr.

Brown, for taking my call. You're welcome. I um very interested in the the um conversation you were just having with the author of the book then Even the topics. You know, I don't have very much in the way of Jewish people here, but we do have Muslims, Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons. Oh this thing.

And do And that's my challenge. But Yeah. Um I agree with that and In Bible College, I did a thesis on the the topic of Because I had a question before I come into ministry, and that was: Lord, if you are calling me into the ministry, Let me know these answer these two questions for me. Are we worshiping on the right day? And what's the place for one a minute?

And the manuscript.

So you know I I was instructed, don't worry about those, just study. Um and prepare yourself to preach. And that will come later on, and it did. and when I was in I guess my masters class. to do their thesis, I learned a whole lot.

and especially with you so far that It was not good. And take uh So you can't output too. Israel, that is the the law, the covenant that God made. And that's very eye opening. And I really enjoy this statement because God works miraculously in our lives.

And one way he convicted me before I come in, I was are chaperoning twenty seven girls that came to Germany in the seventies. And my motive is for that were totally Okay. Uh, you know, a young 20-year-old guy. By the way, you are a year and 14 days older than I am. You're born in March, I'm born in March.

But nevertheless, those girls, the bus broke down on the Autobus. And the lady who come over with the young girls, she said, We're going to do the Jericho march around this book. They marched around the bus and me and three other guys To sitting there thinking, now what how's this gonna help? But guess what? Two American school buses Empty.

Mm-hmm. Pick those ladies and ourselves into the business. Tell you what, we got a break. Uh, we come back. I just want to ask you one succinct question.

Sorry, we had to cut in on the story there. but I want to ask you one succinct question. Your ultimate conclusion about the day that we worship.

Alright, and then we're going to go on with this discussion. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Welcome to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday Michael Brown introduced by the singing voice of Paul Wilber.

So, Carl and Decatur, just very quickly, what was your ultimate conclusion about does God have a preference on the day in which we worship? Is it a seventh day, Sabbath? Is it eighth day celebrating the resurrection? Is it whatever we feel in our hearts? What was your conclusion on that?

My conclusion from the call in episodes was basically the first day of the week And that any day that someone else wanted to worship, that I would consider them. To be, you know, again, as the scriptures say, one man extends one day more than another, and one man spends every day of life.

So I I you know, I just talk to people and try to get them to read those Those scriptures, like the Romans and Galatians, and you know, let them come to me with questions if they have. And you know, Mike's my my my situation is unique. I have seven-day adventures in the back. of my church, church acquired on On the side.

So, you know, in it they infiltrate and there are certain things that, you know, they try to Uh mess my youth mind up with as far as dietary laws in the day working.

So those things. But nevertheless, I'm convicted first day of the week, but those other things, sort of your position as far as We, you know, want to try to bring unity in the body of Christ, not division. I appreciate that, and sometimes the way to unity is to say we have differences, but they're not dividing differences. And that's how we have unity. That's how you can have at the food court, in the mall, all these different...

restaurants, not always the healthiest, but serving their different foods. But that's the one place everybody goes.

So it's unified in its diversity. Hey, thank you for the call. 866-348-7884. Listen, you can make a case for a seventh day Sabbath As something established at creation, although not given by law at creation, but established at creation, given to Israel before the Sinai Covenant, and someone that will, something that will be practiced, what seems to be in the new heavens and new earth, based on the end of the book of Isaiah. or at least in the millennial kingdom.

Others would say no, that was exclusively for Israel in terms of law. Or they'd say, no, it was established, but it points to the Messiah. And now we find rest in him. Come to me, all you who labor and heavy laden, I'll give you rest. And Matthew 11:28.

And the immediate context going into chapter 12, after Matthew 11, 28 to 30, going to chapter 12 of Matthew is very interesting, worth reading in terms of the true rest we find in the Messiah. Was that the point of it? Was it pointing towards him? Is that what Colossians 2 would say? That the substance is found in the Messiah, what is certain.

What is certain? is that it is wrong, it is sinful and wrong and unscriptural. To tell Gentile believers that you must keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and if you don't, you're in sin. That is certainly wrong. The custom that was developed on celebrating the resurrection of Jesus for Gentile believers that would have been before work or after work on a Sunday, and how that ultimately came viewed as the new Sabbath.

Did the church have authority to change the Sabbath? No, but the question is: was the seventh-day Sabbath given to Israel? That's one of the Ten Commandments in the. The debate goes round and round. And I appreciate why.

I appreciate people wanting to revere the words of God. I appreciate people wanting to take seriously the words of God. And especially as Jewish believers that say, hey, this is part of our heritage and this is part of our solidarity with our people, which I deeply appreciate. Uh as well. But it's nothing that I'm going to divide over within the body or make the central issue.

Farmer? 866-348-7884. And yet it's amazing how passionate the views are when people weigh in about Sabbath and dietary laws, how passionate they get. I'm talking about plenty of non-Jewish believers, passionate. and damning everybody to hell if they don't follow these particular things and calling me out as a false prophet and a false teacher if I don't call make it mandatory for everybody.

And then on the flip side, people calling me out for a false prophet, false teacher, because I believe in the Jewish roots of the faith and preach repentance and holiness.

So you get slammed from both ends. You just pray for people in what I perceive to be extremes. All right, back to the phones in Dallas, Texas. Ian, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Michael.

Thanks for taking my call again. I called a couple of weeks ago with a question on eschatology when it came to the one hundred forty four thousand. And I have A whole lot of questions that I'd love for you to answer, but I know I can't ask them all.

So I'm going to have to call like every couple of weeks to ask you these questions. But uh Uh this one's on the Antichrist. And I kind of have to give you context before I can ask the question because I'm kind of in a between me and a friend of mine, he's he I guess he'd read Joe Joe Richardson's book on on the Antichrist being a Muslim. And uh and when I when I read the scripture and my Kind of Take from it what I can about the Antichrist. I'm seeing that he goes out conquering nations surrounding Israel, being in a covenant with Israel.

And we know it's the nations around Israel because What are the three that escaped from his hand? It's it's Edom, Moab, and Ammon. Uh so Yeah, that Big Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Oh, sorry. Um There we go. I'm just wondering, 'cause that either that means he's One of three things, really. Either he's a foreigner, maybe from Europe or something like that, who's protecting Israel. and fighting against their enemies or Um Mm-hmm.

Muslim, which doesn't seem to make any sense. or he is Jewish. And that wouldn't make sense that he'd be a Muslim fighting for the uh Muslims enemies and a against them. Let me ask you a question. Since this is in the book of Daniel.

And since the question would have been, even then, is their application in their day? Is it referring to some leader at that time? Is it a prophecy of an ungodly Greek leader who's trying to hurt the Jewish people? Is it something just for the end of the age? Those are all fair questions to ask when you're reading something like the book of Daniel.

You know, what did it mean to Daniel? What did it mean to those that received the word then? Was it a prophecy in any level fulfilled in future generations before the coming of the Messiah? Or is it exclusively for the future? These are totally fair questions to ask.

But let me ask you this: if you were the Lord. and you were trying to make clear The identity of the Antichrist. Do you think you could have made it more clear than in these verses? Which verses exactly?

Well, just any that you're reading in Daniel that you believe are referring to the Antichrist.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Would you say that it is i explicit that if God was giving us directions, here's how you get from where you are now to this house, here are the directions, is it explicit like that, or is it somewhat ambiguous? It is a little ambiguous. Right, which is absolutely what my view is in terms of an end-time Antichrist figure, that there are certain things that are spoken of in the New Testament, says Antichrist is coming, but already there are many Antichrists with the emphasis being on the denial of the Son of God.

And then you have the references to him being the man of sin and what's described in 2 Thessalonians, the 2nd chapter. But honestly I don't see anything in Scripture that tells me plainly enough that the Antichrist will be either European Or Islamic, potentially could be a European Muslim, right? But either European or a Muslim. Or that the anti-Christ, the anti-Messiah couldn't be Jewish. If the Messiah himself was Jewish, why couldn't the anti-Messiah be Jewish?

So when there was a lot of teaching. in generations past about the end times. When I was a new believer and brand new in this, and there's all the pointing to Europe, and the Antichrist is going to come from Europe, and the restored Roman Empire, and the Ten Horns were the Ten Nations of the European Union as that developed over the years, etc. Then you wonder, okay, could that be true? Big question, Mark.

Then Joe Richardson and others have given an argument for an Islamic Antichrist. And interesting argument from that. Perspective is, hey, hey, wait a second. If there's going to be a third temple, if the prophecies do demand that, If there's going to be a third temple, Then you can't have a third temple with the Dome of the Rock standing.

So how in the world could you get rid of the Dome of the Rock if Israel tried to do it? It would be an all-out to-the-death war with the Muslim world, and that war would not stop.

So Joel's idea was got to be a Muslim then who's going to broker a deal. with Israel. And then and then Israel is is going to go along with that. And that's how they're going to make a a a peace treaty or something, because they get they get to build the temple and the Muslim world's going to buy into that, but it's just a false treaty. But then, on the other hand, would Israel be deceived on the level of submitting to a figure like that if that person was not claiming to be a Jewish Messiah?

Could it be that the ultimate deception is one who seems to be a Jewish Messiah, and by leading Israel into a time of peace and to a place of triumph that then somehow Rules the entire world before the real Messiah returns. To me, we can't be definitive.

So, I'm not dodging the question. I'm simply saying I don't believe we have sufficient data. To conclude. And therefore I believe that we will know what we need to know when we need to know it. When this figure is revealed, it will become very clear to believers.

It won't be speculation. I think Barack Obama is the antichrist. No, no, it's Mikhail Gorbachev. No, no, it's the ITO. No, no, it'll be clear.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the line of fire 866-34TRUTH. Let me say again, when it comes to prophecy. When it comes to Things that God has laid out in advance, He never tells us enough to satisfy our curiosity. I'm looking at doing commentary work in years ahead in the book of Isaiah. And agreed to do it for a commentary series.

I'll tell you about that another day. It's just taking shape now. But I just read through Isaiah the other other week and Reading through it, there are some prophecies that are so crystal clear, and others that scratch my head and think, ooh. I'm gonna have to comment on that. kind of obscure, a little difficult to understand.

But After being spoken, when it would come to pass, it would become clear. All right. And. We've all had that. We've all had something that's told us, does it make sense now?

You know, and maybe directions to get somewhere. It doesn't make sense now, but as we closure, oh, that's what they were talking about. Oh, I didn't get that. And I'll give you one example. When I was in Mombasa Canyon in 1989, With my friends Ari Sakaram and Sid Roth.

We were. had a rental car, I was the designated driver. Which was kind of funny. Sid sat in the back and prayed fervently in the spirit. Ari sat in the front and helped navigate.

Because you had to drive on the opposite side of the road, so you've got your steering wheel on the on the the right and instead of uh instead of on the left and it was stick shift which i wasn't used to i hadn't driven that well so i had to shift with the with the left hand and everything was just different. Anyway, uh we're trying to get to the hotel. And we're told, okay, uh Turn it to traffic light. And we went all the way down through the length and breadth of the small city. And no traffic light.

Back and forth a few times. Finally, an African said, I'll show you where the hotel is. Just get in the car with you. We thought, Want to get in the car with us? Hmm.

And if there are three of us, one of him When we're in his home turf, we don't know where we're going. Is it a trap? Basically, I'll show you how. And When we get to the traffic light, we turn.

Well, how come we missed it?

Well, it was a non-operating traffic light, it was this old thing in the middle of the city that didn't operate. But that was their landlord, the traffic light. What used to be a working traffic light? That's why we missed it. And by the way, we drove, got to the hotel.

God said, okay, just let me out. I said, well, how are you going to get back? He said, that's fine.

So it was very, very gracious of him. But all that to say. Even something that simple, we didn't get until someone explained it.

So There God's way in in in prophecy. is to lay things out in such a way that prepares us to pray. that that gets our attention. And then tells us What we need to know, not what we want to know. And as things get closer, they become clearer.

So there's no reason for us to speculate. Wow, look at this. Is this one the Antichrist? That one? Because as this person rises up, it will become clear.

Well, it's Mikhail Gorbachev 'cause lucky he's changing the Soviet Union and he's got that mark on his head. No, no, someone's actually told me this. It's Ronald Wilson Reagan. six, six, six, six letters in Ronald, six letters in Wilson, six letters in Reagan. It's Barack Obama.

Can't you tell he's the Antichrist? And trust me. There are people saying Donald Trump is the Antichrist, there are people saying Hillary Clinton is the Antichrist, and I ignore. All of it. Do I even speculate?

Do I w no, I ignore All of it. All of it. Especially Ronald Wilson Reagan. But anyway, that's an aside. And as things further unfold.

they will become more clear. And we will then know what we need to know when we need. to know it. All right. I was sent a video.

by a Jewish media leader in Canada. A video for Jews against Trump And the fellow doing the video, Rebel Media, Ezra Levant, says: if you're not Jewish, don't watch this. And he's having fun with it. But he said you should watch it if you're a Jew and you don't want to vote for Trump because you think he's an anti-Semite.

Now, in my view, the candidate I'd endorsed, Ted Cruz, was the strongest pro-Israel candidate we had. But I thought Trump was pro- pro-Israel as well. And even though he made a statement that, you know, with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, he wanted to remain neutral and not be perceived as taking either side, but he was elected this way, he could. negotiate better for some type of peace treaty. I understood he said that, I understood that as part of his whole negotiator thing, but.

I wasn't to me, the bigger issue was the vacillating, saying that one day and then a few days later at Regent University telling Pat Robertson that he's staunchly pro-Israel, etc. That's what concerned me more. But that being said, I never thought Donald Trump was an anti-Semite. I even wrote that a couple months ago. But this video very interestingly points out that all of Trump's adult children, he's got a younger child through his wife Melania, but all of his adult children.

Are either dating Jews or married to Jews.

Now I knew his daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married her Jewish husband, which means the grandkids are Jewish. Under Jewish law, and the way they'd be recognized. Both the mother's converted to Jews and father's Jewish, so everyone would say that the kids are. Jewish, every Jews would recognize that.

So his grandkids are Jewish, but then he's got another son. With a Jewish gal, and then a daughter with a Jewish guy. I guess it's like four out of four, which I didn't know. I wasn't aware of that. And then Jews at high levels throughout his company.

So I just found that interesting for whatever it's worth. But I never personally felt. I'd never personally felt. Donald Trump was an anti-Semite hate. Vice President Joe Biden met with the Turkish President Erdogan.

Who many feel is very taken a very, very sharp turn right and is cracking down mercilessly on his country. And according to Vice President Biden, the American people, quote, stand in awe. of Turkish courage. Um Wow. I was not aware of that.

Not just in general. Yeah, and this is not to put down on Turks in general. No, no, but as in Turkish courage, as in President Erdogan. That's some very interesting quotes there. I can understand, Mr.

President, how some of your countrymen would feel that the world didn't respond to the existential crisis your country was facing rapidly enough with the appropriate amount of solidarity and compassion and empathy. there was hope that there was actually a coup. Overthrowing Erdogan because He was turning the country in the direction of radical Islam instead of the secular Islamic state it had been. And that some even believe that he staged the coup so as to purge those that opposed him.

Now, God knows the truth of that. But the fact that America didn't st the world didn't stand with them enough. Let's just say there's some very interesting comments, to say the least. All right. Do you have my Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series?

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