Getting Ready for Yom Kippur; and Apologetics with J. Warner Wallace

Yom Kippur, the day of atonement is coming, but there is no forgiveness outside of the Messiah's sacrifice for our sins. Uh It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, look, look, he's not a polished politician like you and Hillary Clinton. And so, you know, I would admit that's not exactly the way he means. But I'm telling you, what are the great line from the Gospel of Paul? From the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks. That was part of the vice presidential debate last night between Mike Pence and Tim Kaine.

Widely reported that Mike Pence clearly won the debate and that Tim Kaine's demeanor was very much off-putting. But we don't know how much influence a VP debate has in overall elections. It did highlight some important moral and faith issues. And I won't be getting into that in a major way today, but I do want to play a couple of clips for you. And then I want to do some thoroughly Jewish stuff today on a Wednesday.

And we've got some great interviews, some special guests that you'll be blessed by on Thoroughly Jewish Thursday tomorrow. This is. Michael Brown, number to call 866-34TRUS. If you've got a Jewish friend that doesn't know the Lord, Give them a call. Tell them to listen in because a few minutes from now, I'm going to open up some important truths about Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, and the Messiah.

But first, from the debate last night, Mike Pence is an evangelical Christian. Tim Kaine claims to be a devout Catholic. Listen to what they have to say. First, listen to, oh, let's see. Tim Kaine, clip number 10.

Tim Kaine speaking about his views on abortion, which, of course, put him in opposition with his Catholic faith. Elaine, this is a fundamental question. A fundamental question. Hillary and I are both people out of religious backgrounds. Her Methodist church experience was really formative for her as a public servant.

But we really feel like you should live Fully and with enthusiasm, the commands of your faith. But it is not the role of the public servant. To mandate that for everybody else.

So let's talk about abortion and choice. Let's talk about them. We support Roe versus Wade. We support the constitutional right of American women. to consult their own conscience, their own Supportive partner, their own minister, but then make their own decision about pregnancy.

That's something we trust American women to do that. And we don't think. That women should be punished, as Donald Trump said they should, for making the decision to have an abortion. Mm-hmm. And Listen to what Um Mike Pence, Governor Mike Pence, has to say, we'll grab clip number eight, and this is an extended quote from Governor Pence.

For me the sanctity of life. Proceeds out of the belief that ancient principle that. Um Where God says, before you were formed in the womb, I knew you. And so for my first time, in public life I've sought to stand with great compassion for The sanctity of life. The state of Indiana has also sought to make sure that we expand.

Alternatives in healthcare counseling for women, non-abortion alternatives. I'm also very pleased the fact we're well on our way in Indiana to becoming the most pro-adoption state. in America. I think if you're going to be pro-life, you should be pro-adoption. But what what I can't understand is with Hillary Clinton.

and now Senator Kaine at her side. is to support a practice like partial birth abortion. I mean, to hold to the view, and I know Senator Kaine, you hold. Pro-life views personally, but the very idea that a child that is almost born into the world. could still have their life taken from them.

It's just anathema to me. Yeah, and in the most barbaric ways imaginable. Make no mistake about it. Senator Kaine's position on abortion is in direct opposition to the Catholic Church, and he claims to be a devout Catholic. That being said, Neither of these men are the presidential candidates, they're VP candidates, and barring something happening to the candidate.

We're not voting for them, but... the candidate whom they are supporting. We're going to shift gears when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown. Yeah, I know, I know we played some clips from the vice presidential debate, and I understand that you may want to talk about that, but we're just not going to focus on that today. We're in a very sacred season on the Jewish calendar, and I know that it is Wednesday. Instead of Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, but we are going to focus on a Jewish-related subject today on this Thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

If you have a question, if you have a question for me about Yom Kippur, if you have a question for me about Day of Atonement and any of the traditions surrounding that, by all means, give me a call. Let me read to you from Leviticus chapter 16. Leviticus chapter 16. The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, who died when they approached the Lord. The Lord said to Moses, Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the most holy place, behind the curtain, in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die.

For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover. This is how Aaron is to enter the most holy place. He must bring a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. He is to put on the sacred linen tunic with linen undergarments next to his body. He is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban.

There are sacred garments, so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on. From the Israelite community, he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

Now, it's really very interesting, but in Jewish tradition, The night before Yom Kippur, the day before Yom Kippur, was very important for the high priest. It was a time of special separation, lest he become defiled in any way. If he became defiled, Let's say he accidentally touched a corpse, someone died in his presence, and he accidentally touched the corpse and he became defiled, or something else happened. Lo and behold, you've got a problem where the high priest of the nation cannot. cannot be involved in the atonement ceremony, the cleansing ceremony, the expiation ceremony for the nation, in which case there's no national atonement.

So, Jewish traditions obviously grew around this event quite understandably. And right now, we are in the period between Yom Truah. Which is the blowing of the shofar, which in Jewish tradition becomes Rosh Hashanah, the beginning of the year, the new year. We're in the time period between that. And The day of atonement, Yom Kippur.

So basically, in the third day of 10, Yom Kippur being the 10th day of the month, a sacred assembly, a day of fasting, a day of introspection, a day of repentance for Jews all around the world, a day when they're praying that their names will be written in the book of life for another year. And many Jews believe that at this time of the year, their deeds are being weighed in the balance. In fact, it's a time when many Jews are especially examining their hearts and examining their lives and seeking to do more good deeds so that their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds over the course of the year. And the zodiac sign for this month, Tishrei, The seventh month of the biblical calendar, but the first month of the traditional Jewish calendar, it is scales. Wait, scales.

So this signifies hanging in the balance. And obviously, this could be approached in a legalistic way, where you're trying really hard to get your good deeds to outweigh your bad deeds. And certainly, there can be legalism in any religion. I would say that many Jews, even if there is something legalistic, they, with all sincerity, are seeking to repent and do what's right. The question of sincerity is not the issue.

The question of zeal is not the issue. The question of truth and of conformity with God's will is the ultimate issue, coupled with a sincere and repentant heart. But um Uh let let me let me also let me also said this. I say this. Uh If you really understand the holiness of God, and your own sin and lack.

If you really understand how far you fall short of the mark. Then, this idea of good deeds outweighing bad deeds, it's not going to work. Follow what I'm saying. Charles Spurgeon tells the story of a man who was staying in an inn, a small inn, while traveling through England. He was out in kind of an isolated area.

There was a small inn with a room.

So he stayed there for the night. But he noticed the floor was covered with dirt.

So he Got on his hands and knees and just started to brush the dirt away, but the more he brushed, the dirtier it got. And that's when he realized it was a dirt floor. And Spurgeon likened that to the condition of the human heart outside of God's redemption. It's dirty, it's filthy, and no matter what you do to dust it off and clean it, it just gets dirtier in that respect, or at the least, it remains dirty. Hence, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Scripture declares that plainly. Hence, the verses that say, There's not a righteous man on the earth who does what's right without sinning. Hence, verses that say, God, if you would bring us into judgment, not one of us could stand. Why, we all fall short of the mark of God's standard, of God's holiness.

So, on our very, very best day, on our holiest day. on our most devoted day, on our most committed day, What we do is still tarnished, is still blemished, if not for the grace and mercy of God that comes through the blood of the Messiah.

So I just want to say: if you are a Jewish person listening today, You can try your best, but you will not be able to have your good deeds outweigh your bad, because God judges every thought, God judges the intent of the heart, and you will find yourself still drowning.

Some people, it's true, drown in a hundred feet of water. They are full of sin and corruption, and are not even seeking to do what's right. They are even glorying in their sin. And there are others that are drowning in 15 feet of water. They're really attempting to do the right thing, but still falling short.

And there's some maybe drowning in 10 feet of water. And yeah, I mean, they're trying to do the right thing, but then they're struck with their own self-righteousness and pride, and we need mercy. We need a savior. We need a deliverer. And notice, Notice that there were two male goats that were taken.

For a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. And notice that throughout this whole presentation, there are animal sacrifices and blood is being shed. The day of atonement centered in terms of the activities of the high priest, who was the lead intercessor for the nation, and the only one who could go into the most holy place, and he could only go with blood. This signifying, as Hebrews tells us, that the way into the most holy place was not yet opened. All right.

Notice that without blood, you do not have a day of atonement. Yes, the Israelites were commanded to afflict themselves. They were commanded to afflict themselves. What does that mean to afflict oneself?

Well, traditionally came to be understood as fasting. self-denial So, say no to the most basic desires of the body. And then some Jewish tradition would say that our fasting is diminishing ourselves, and it's almost as if we're offering sacrifices. But certainly it's not here as if we're offering sacrifices, because sacrifices were being offered by the high priest. And It says Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household.

Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the tent of meeting. He is to cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD, and sacrifice it for a sin offering but the goat chosen by Lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to be used for making atonement, by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat. The so called scapegoat was named after the goat that escaped. The escape goat became the scapegoat.

And the scapegoat is the one that takes the punishment. We use it in contemporary speech. Ah, you're scapegoating that person. You're blaming that person for what others have done.

Well, somebody's got to take the blame. But the goat that escaped into the wilderness, in Hebrew, the goat for Azazel. Did that mean the goat that escaped? Did that mean a goat that was sent out to the demons of the wilderness? One called Azazel?

There's debate about that. What is clear is that the two goats would have two important functions. One would be sacrificed for the Lord. Sacrifice for the Lord.

So you'd pull out the lot, you'd get in the right hand, it said for the Lord. And that was the goat that would be sacrificed, and its blood would be shed for expiation, for atonement. And then the priest would lay his hands on the other goat. And that goat would be sent out into the wilderness. By later Jewish tradition, it was actually thrown off a cliff and died.

But that goat would symbolically carry away the sins of the nation.

So the atonement process was blood and the carrying away of sin. And Yeshua, our Messiah, does both. That which is prefigured in these two goats finds its fulfillment in him. Which is why we can know that we know, that we know that our sins are forgiven. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire, 866-348-7884. Hey, let's be straight with one another. Let's be straight with one another. These are not trivial issues. You know who you are.

You might be listening to the show for the first time. You might be a regular listener for years. You might be a secret listener. Because in your community, it wouldn't be good if people knew you were listening to. Michael Brown.

Mm-hmm. Do you know? That you know that you know that your sins are forgiven. Do you know without any question, without any doubt, that if you were to die right now, you would go straight. into the presence of God.

Are you 100% sure? I am. And it's not because of how good I am. It's not because of how hard I try. And it's not because of how deeply I've repented.

Oh. I I do repent deeply. I I hate sin. I do seek to please God. I do seek to honor him with my entire life.

Absolutely. But I am depending on the righteousness of the Messiah. I am depending on the blood of Messiah. and I have truly asked God to forgive me, To wash me clean. to forgive and forget Everything I've done that offended him, that grieved him, That defiled me, that separated.

me from God. and that merited his wrath and his judgment. I have asked for forgiveness and received it. and live in 100% confidence of His grace and goodness. I have in that sense been bathed and washed from head to toe.

As I walk through this world and my feet get dirty, I get my feet cleansed and washed on a daily basis.

Sometimes on a moment-by-moment basis, we're cleansed and washed by the Messiah's blood, but the once-for-all forgiveness. we have received I think Talk to an ultra-Orthodox rabbi in Brooklyn many years ago.

Now I'm just describing his experience. I can't say that this describes the experience of other religious Jews, but it was his experience. It was not long after Yom Kippur.

So of course he spent that day that Little over a 24-hour period in fasting and praying and confessing sin, his sins, and the sins of the community of Israel. the people of Israel. and he beat his breast and he asked for mercy. And I said to him, Are you sure? that you've been forgiven.

And he said I need to see how sincere My repentances. In other words, If i if if I see an attractive woman, uh am I looking at her lustfully? If I've done evil in another way and I've repented and asked for forgiveness, is my repentance real and sincere?

So to him If he truly saw that he had repented, And he was no longer doing what he used to do. And the old rabbinic formulation says, when it comes to immorality, The test of repentance, the same woman, same place, same opportunity, basically. You sin last time, you don't sin this time. Not meaning you set it up, but it happens again, and the first time you yielded, the second time you didn't. That's that's a proof of repentance.

Then, because the repentance was sincere, He would then say, Then, God, seeing the sincerity of the repentance, therefore forgave him. I I I would hate to have everything hanging. on the perfection of my repentance. Because if you probe more deeply into that same heart, that same rabbi's heart. Other areas where he falls short would certainly come to the surface.

Other areas of uncleanness, other areas of pride, or self-righteousness, or lack of compassion. or lack of devotion towards God. Or fleshly attitude here or there, or whatever, certainly those things would surface. And therefore, if he's depending on the sincerity of his repentance, yeah, I know five days later, Sukkot Tabernacle is a time of celebration, rejoicing, and Jews around the world celebrating and rejoicing. And yes, the repentance is for a day, and the rejoicing is for a week.

I understand all of that. But I'm saying that there is an assurance of forgiveness that we have in the Messiah. that a traditional Jew will never know. outside of the Messiah. that we have something within us a supernatural knowledge and assurance and grace that even on our worst day carries us through.

And I remember December 17th, 1971. The night I said, Lord, I'll never put a needle in my arm again And by his grace, I never did from that night on. That was the point of challenge. That was the point of surrender. That's what God was dealing with me about so intensely.

terms of repentance. And I I have to say this. I had been riddled with guilt in the previous weeks. Riddled with guilt. Things I used to boast about, things I felt so cool about, things that are shameful and embarrassing.

today but When I was doing drugs and stealing money from my own father and lying to my best friends and breaking to a doctor's office for fun, and it's so full of pride and anger and hate. thought I was so cool. The Holy Spirit was convicting me week after week after week. I lay in bed late at night, high on drugs, unable to sleep. and feeling miserable about the wretch that I was.

The very things I boasted about one day, the next day, I was now ashamed of. And I remember when when I truly asked God to forgive me, And said, no more double-mindedness, no more playing games, I surrender. And put my trust totally in the grace and mercy and goodness and kindness of God. There was a clear mental picture. that that led to that moment.

I saw how deeply God loved me. And I saw how ungrateful I'd been. I pictured myself filthy from head to toe. And then the blood of Jesus, the Messiah, washed me from head to toe. Washed me literally from head to toe.

And this is what I just saw, myself being completely cleansed. And then these beautiful white robes and garments were put on me. And then I went back out to playing in the mud. And that's the conviction that hit me then. And that's when I said, Lord, I'll never put a needle in my arm again.

And at that moment, All the guilt. disappeared. disappeared. and I thought of some of the very worst things I had done. The very thought of them made me feel miserable.

I I went there and there was no guilt. It was gone. it had disappeared. Yes. Yes, the guilt was gone and it stayed gone for 45 years.

Oh, if I fall short, if I disobey the Lord, if I do something carnal, the Holy Spirit is there to lovingly convict me. And by his grace I turn immediately from that thing and renounce it. Get cleansed and move on in Jesus' name. But I'm telling you That conviction of the sins I had committed. that conviction that indicated to me I was separated from God.

that guilt that plagued my heart disappeared The moment I surrendered to the Lord and the blood of Messiah washed me clean, He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we, being dead to sin, should live to righteousness. I urge you. I strongly encourage you. Cry out to him for mercy. Turn from your sin by His grace and say, Wash me clean, give me a brand new heart.

I believe Jesus the Messiah died for my sins and rose from the dead. If you do it from the heart, he will meet you. Let us help you grow in God. Write to us at askdrbrown.org. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire, 866-348. Seven. Eight, eight, four. is the number to call. Yesterday, We spent some time talking about Andy Stanley's Recent preaching, an article that had raised a lot of questions, Dr.

Al Moller's response, Professor Scott McKnight weighing in. I want to get back to that shortly.

So, in the next segment, I want to give you some thoughts. I wrote an article that you can read by going to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, and just clicking on the digital library looking for the latest article there, where I interact with Pastor Stanley and sent him. We interacted privately, then I sent him the Uh then I sent him My article, and he just sent me a note of appreciation back and some follow-up to it.

So, um, I'm going to get into that with you in a moment. But how about? Oh, so just a little crazy. I'm not going to get into this in depth. JJ, grab clip number.

Thirteen for me, all right, and this is Leonardo DiCaprio. He's uh sitting across from President Obama. And he's talking about Climate change. Listen to what he had to say. Clip number 13.

The scientific consensus is in, and the argument is now over. If you do not believe in climate change, you do not believe in facts. or in science. or empirical truths And therefore, in my humble opinion, should not be allowed to hold public office.

Now, of course, the funny thing with all this is. First, I I don't know that Leonardo DiCaprio is known for his scientific acumen or for his ability to assess the scientific data, pro and con. On this divisive subject. That's one. And two, the critics of the DiCaprios and others say, hey, you are all against climate change, but then you fly in on your private jets and pollute the atmosphere when I use public transportation.

But I just play that clip. No, we're not getting into a discussion.

Sorry, I apologize. We're not going to get into a big discussion about it. But I play that clip just to say. that our nation continues to be deeply divided, that our nation continues to have extremely polarizing views. And what's interesting is for the most part, The Hollywood elites, for the most part, are extremely liberal.

and whether the issue is abortion. Whether the issue is homosexual practice. whether the issue is climate change. They tend to Universally lean left.

Now again, there are exceptions to that. and Bruce slash Caitlin Janner Said that he has had more opposition for his conservative Republican views. than for sex change.

Well, certainly within Hollywood, that would be the case. And by the way, climate change is not a subject. This is not a subject that we have discussed. On the line of fire over the years, there's some shows it's a big, big topic. It's just never been a focus of mine.

So I have never studied the issue carefully. How could you not? Hey, I haven't. I believe we should be good stewards over the earth. That's just practical common sense.

The book of Revelation even mentions God's anger towards those who destroy the earth, which could be interpreted in a number of ways. But we should be good stewards and think about future generations. That's common sense. But I just thought I'd play that clip. I had it sitting on my desk since yesterday, and I thought you'd enjoy hearing it.

We come back, we're shifting over to some summary thoughts. on Andy Stanley and the Bible. Shake the nation, change the world. Change the world. Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire at 866-666. 34 truth, 866-348-7884. All right. I want to weigh in clearly with some conclusions about the controversy with Andy Stanley and the Bible. He pastors right now the largest congregation in the United States.

He's one of the world's most influential pastors. And just interacting with him privately, he's extremely gracious and nice and makes himself accessible and takes a criticism of his positions seriously to the point that he has now addressed things in a major article. And here's the question that he deals with: is So, the Bible tells me so. Is that enough today?

So, there's a major article: why the Bible says so is not enough anymore. And in this article, he says a number of things that are very important that I want to draw attention to and that I agree with.

Now, the controversial statement, part of a message that was a six-part message, said this: So, I need you to listen really carefully. And the reason is this: perhaps you were taught as I was taught, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. That is where our trouble began.

Well, Dr. Al Moeller said, No, that's not where our trouble began. That's exactly where we should start. And yes, we say more than that, but that's a great starting place. And if we can't defend the scriptures, then we can't defend our faith.

Andy Stanley's position is you got to understand, you got a whole bunch of people today, they don't believe in the Bible. They are hostile to the scriptures. They're raised without the Bible, or they've dropped out of church. They've, quote, deconverted. And Andy has a tremendous heart to reach them.

Now, what does he say in his article? Where does he stand about the scriptures? He says this: I believe the Bible is without error in everything it affirms. I believe what the Bible says is true is true. Neither of those statements is original.

He sat under the great theologian and apologist, Dr. Norman Geisler, and he said, Dr. Geisler understands what Andrew Stanley is seeking to do in his present preaching and teaching. And Andrew said, Hey, don't just take one quote and one message, listen to the whole six-part message, understand where he's going. He wants people to put their focus in Jesus and His resurrection and from there come to the scriptures, believing that the witnesses gave accurate accounts, and then we believe in the witness of the scriptures, as opposed to, Well, I believe it because the Bible tells me so.

So he says, This: Changing times call for changing approaches in order to accomplish our unchanging mission of making disciples. Yeah, certainly. Every culture, every situation can be different, and we must be absolutely, totally devoted to the great commission, making disciples. And that's what his heart burns for. I commend that.

He said, shifting the conversation away from the authority of Scripture to the authority, courage, and faithfulness of the men and women behind our scriptures has not only enabled me to better connect with post-Christians, it's done wonders for the faith of the faithful.

Now, again, his point is: get people to believe these things. And then, as they do, their overall confidence in God and the scriptures will grow. And he said, Look, if you have to defend the whole Bible, it's just not going to work. You're not going to be able to defend the whole Bible with all the attacks that come against it.

So that's the wrong place to start. And he says, This: so, come on. If you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, that's all I need to know. And in light of what's at stake, in light of who is at stake, perhaps that's all you need to know as well.

So, as I say in my article, as I said privately to Andy Stanley, hey, I applaud you for having such a heart for the lost, and for having a burning heart for the next generation, and for. Being willing to reevaluate what you do and how you do it so as to better reach this next generation and see people come to faith and see them discipled. And I applaud you for affirming your faith in the infallibility of scripture. That's big, that's major. Here are the concerns, though, that I have.

If you say hey, If you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, that's all I need to know.

Well, the question then comes, well, well, which Jesus Christ? In New Testament times, there were many different Jesuses. Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 says, someone's going to come and preach another Jesus. You might believe that person.

So, how do we distinguish between the counterfeits? After the original gospels were written, some decades and centuries later, counterfeit gospels were written about counterfeit Christ. How do we distinguish the real Jesus from the false one? It is by the scriptures. When Paul tells Timothy, watch your life and your doctrine closely.

How can you do that without constant reference to what is written? That's the first thing. Second thing is this: Pastor Stanley says the whole approach, the Bible says that that settles it.

Well, if the Bible goes, there goes our faith. If the Bible gets undermined, our whole faith gets undermined. But hang on. Fine, the order for most of us is, if we're not raised in the faith, Like me, heroin shooting LSD using 16-year-old Jewish hippie rock drummer when I get saved.

So, coming to faith in Jesus, Him changing my life, now I know the Bible is true. This is the book that tells me about it, and the people preaching to me were using the Bible, quoting the Bible.

Now I know the Bible's true.

Now I'm reading the Bible, growing in my faith, growing in knowledge of God. If someone could come along. And and and Undermine the scriptures. In other words, the order is: I came to faith in Jesus first, and now I come to scripture.

So, fine. That's the order for many of us, especially those who weren't raised in the faith. But now I have put my trust in the veracity, the truthfulness, the reliability, the historicity of God's word. And if it can be undermined, if someone can show, for example, the Exodus from Egypt never happened, if they can show that the gospel accounts are completely erroneous historically, if they can show some other major things, David never existed, then why should we believe the rest of the record? You see, so you still come back to the same problem, don't you?

All right, and then third. The contemporary attack on scripture is not just an attack on its accuracy or reliability. It's an attack on the character and nature of God. It's an attack on the standards of God. It's an attack on the morals that God puts forth in his word.

And so, if we are not committed to stand with what God's word says, even when it's culturally unpopular, even when it goes against the grain, then it is going to be very, very easy for us to just go with the contemporary tide and say, well, people feel like this. This is not popular anymore. And what I find in many churches that are looking for new and creative ways to reach the lost, they are sometimes ashamed to say, hey, this is what the word says. This is where we stand. Yes, we believe it's best.

Yes, we can give good societal arguments as to why God's ways are best. But bottom line is. It's what God says in his word, and that's what gives us the ultimate confidence for what is right and wrong. We can't move away from that. And and then Again, Professor Scott McKnight writing in harmony with Pastor Stanley's position, he's a brilliant New Testament scholar.

He says, before the apostles, during the period of the apostles, before there were written records, before the gospels were written, during the times of the apostles' writing, and yet before there was anything like a canon of what we now call the New Testament, before this and during this, the gospel is alive and well, the gospel is being preached and taught, and people are being saved. Salvation depends entirely on the truth of the gospel. Yes, but as Professor McKnight certainly knows, these Jewish followers of Jesus already had the Hebrew scriptures. That's what they pointed back to. They knew that everything that had come before the Exodus, the promises to Abraham, the creation accounts, the flood, they knew that was true because at the Exodus, God triumphed over the gods of Egypt, triumphed over the powers of nature, showed he was the one true God, spoke at Mount Sinai, gave his word.

Now, everything that followed after that had to conform to God's word, God's Torah. And that's how we know who the Messiah is. He worked miracles, but he pointed back to the scriptures. It is written, he said, Moses testified about me after he rose from the dead in Luke 24. He said, he opened the minds of his disciples so they could understand all the scriptures, how they pointed to him.

So they had that written record. And Peter said, We have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

So we still end up going back to that scripture. Scripture as a foundation. And in the days of the apostles, even before the gospels were written, there were oral reports, oral traditions already circulating that then became written.

So, at what stage of the process we find ourselves is not the big issue. It still goes back to what is written and what is being communicated. And lastly, I have a concern that it's possible. That, with what Pastor Stanley's doing, again, I commend his heart. I love his heart for the lost.

I love his heart for the next generation. I love his desire to make a difference for Jesus. It's awesome and to be a shepherd of his flock. But you know, there's a simple power of the gospel: it's the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. First, for the Jew, also for the Gentile.

As one past now departed evangelist missionary used to say, the powers in the proclamation.

Sometimes we just need to put our trust in the confidence of the word and proclaim the truths of the gospel. He died, he rose, we find forgiveness in him. And people have their eyes supernaturally opened and come to faith.

So let's continue the discussion. Pastor Stanley, I hope we can do it. All right, friends, you can read my latest article by going to askdrbrown.org. And this little talk that I just gave, we're going to turn into a video and post on our YouTube channel. You say, how do I know about that?

Well, subscribe to the YouTube channel. Say, how do I do that? When you're at askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-O-Brown.org, when you're there, Just click on the YouTube icon and you can subscribe to the YouTube channel the moment a new YouTube video is released. Boom, there it is in YouTube. your inbox.

We'll be right back. Gains Lord. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire 866-348. Seven eight eight four, you know Sometimes we can overreact to one another. Yeah, sometimes we can do that. and you hear something and and you like what? I can't believe that's crazy.

Trust me, I do that a lot. I hear something, some quote. What? That's crazy. But then, when I realized, wait, wait, this is somebody that I know.

This is somebody I consider reliable. Then what's my reaction?

Well, all right. Is there a context? Is there more? Am I misunderstanding something the person is saying?

Now, if this came from someone that. I reject it. If the here, I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. Let's say it was during the primaries.

When Ted Cruz and Donald Trump were going against each other. If someone supplied me with an outrageous quote from Donald Trump, I would still want to get the facts right, but I'd be pretty quick to believe it then. Yeah, doesn't surprise me. He says a lot of crazy things. And if you said, yeah, but Senator Cruz said this, I'd say, oh, well, hang on, hang on.

Maybe there's a context.

Now, don't we all do that? You hear some quote from somebody who used to be part of your church, and they left the church and they caused a real bad split. And now they went across town and they started their own work, and you think they're really hurting things, they're bringing division in the city. And someone says, Yeah, I visited one of their services. And man, he's preaching this crazy stuff.

It's like, yeah, I'm not surprised.

Something's wrong. But then someone says, But I heard your pastor say almost the same thing. It's like, no, no, no, no, you're misunderstanding him. No, you're taking it out of context.

So all I'm saying is this. Let's use equal measures. Let's use equal weights and balances. It's very important scripturally that we do that. It's actually a matter of justice.

It's actually a matter that's very serious in God's sight.

So I want to encourage you. to treat your quote foes The same way you treat your friends. I say quote foes because you may not look at them as foes, they may look at you as foes. But treat those you differ with the same as you treat those you agree with. I know it's not always easy.

And obviously, Obviously. I'm going to give my wife and family And close friends and colleagues, the benefit of the doubt way, way more. then I will someone That I believe is completely on the other side of the truth or the gospel or social or moral concerns or something like that. Obviously, I know these people and I don't know the others. But in terms of general dealings, handling controversies and issues.

We we've got to be fair.

So you m you may be predisposed To agree with Andy Stanley, or you may be predisposed to agree with Al Moeller. Or you may be predisposed to agree with James White, or you may be predisposed to agree with me. And that's fine. As long as when you hear a quote When you hear an example from someone that you differ with, that you treat them just as fairly and don't hang them prematurely, so to say, metaphorically speaking, before you have the evidence. It's just being righteous, isn't it?

It's it's just being fair.

So let's say You were at the Strange Fire Conference, and I bring it up. It's a few years old, but someone's been asking me questions about it. It came up the last few days. Let's say you're at the Strange Fire Conference. And you are totally in the cessationist camp, and you believe that the gifts and power of the Spirit are not for today, etc.

and you see a clip from a Benny Henn meeting. And it's I don't know if they played any, but you see a clip from a Benny Hinn meeting and it seems crazy. You're like, man, that's just crazy, it's terrible. And you judge it in every particular way.

Okay. I don't understand that you already have those sentiments. But You still need to say, okay. Is there context? Are there historical or scriptural precedents for this?

Uh what does this person have to say about it? Rather than just condemning it in the same way. Let's say that you were charismatic and loved the things of the spirit, and I play a clip from you for the Strange Fire Conference, and perhaps I take it a little bit out of context, and I don't even know it's out of context, it's just a clip that was sent to me, and that's what I saw. And now we're all like, those guys, they're a bunch of Pharisees and hypocrites.

Well, hang on, we don't want to do to others what we don't want them to do to us. We don't want to judge others the way we don't want them to judge us.

So I Even when I pray in private for someone. All right, when I pray in private for a brother or sister, With whom I have differences, I pray in such a way that if they were in the room listening to my prayer, they would be able to say amen. In other words, I don't pray prayers full of presumption and God show them that I'm right and they're wrong. I say, Father, there's a dispute between us. Show us the truth.

Where either of us are missing it or wrong, show us the truth. Even if I'm quite confident before the Lord that I'm right.

Well, that person's probably quite confident before the Lord they're right.

So we're each praying, oh God, show them they're wrong. Who's God going to answer? Many years ago, And we left the church we were part of. And ended up getting excommunicated after we left. Many, many years after the pastor came to me with tears and said, Mike, next time God moves, I don't want to miss it.

There was a whole thing that happened. We're dear friends today. But from his perspective, I had done wrong. From his perspective, I had hurt him. And he was very upset with me back then.

And And the Lord said to him, Do you want me to bless Mike or curse Mike? And of course, being a man of God, he said, Lord, I want you to bless him. That's the point. Even when he thought I had hurt him, and again, it was based on misunderstanding. But even when he thought I had hurt him, His heart was not to see me hurt, But to see me helped and blessed.

So I just wanna encourage you: in the midst of this discussion about Pastor Stanley and what he believes and teaches. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Listen to what he has to say. Give Dr. Moeller the benefit of the doubt.

Listen to what he has to say. Give me the benefit of the doubt. Listen to what I have to say. And then sort the issues through and come to your own conclusions, but do it in a godly, righteous way. All right?

Uh friends I was in our shipping room the other day. Flipping through pages of Dr. Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm, it's really neat that a top-flight biblical and Semitic scholar. can write a book on a level that anybody could understand. Oh, yeah, it's some controversy in it.

Of course, anytime you open up the scriptures and talk about controversial issues, there'll be controversy. You'll find Dr. Heiser to really lay some things out about the spiritual realm. Why does the Bible speak of Yahweh, the greatest of the gods? Were they just demons?

These other so-called gods, what's the Bible talking about? Who is Satan? I think you'll find it really interesting, and it'll challenge you to think the issues through so you get the book. Or a one-hour special interview, plus my whole teaching series on angels, demons, and deliverance, which is super practical. Get it all at askdrbrown.org.

My bottom line today. Walk in as much grace towards others as you want them to show towards you. A former police detective does apologetics, and boy, does he do it. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

You know, it was oh, a few years back. I began to hear more and more about J. Warner Wallace, a former policeman. Who is now a top apologist known for his cold case apologetics, whereby he would look at cases, questions about biblical truth and things like that? He would look at them the way that a policeman would investigate and try to figure things out.

He's become very, very popular as an apologist. He's going to be joining us in just a few minutes. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire: 866-348-7884. Is the number to call if you've got a question for me or for my guest about the defense of the faith?

But before we bring Jay Warner on with us, Uh when when I learned to do apologetics. It was like the kid that learns how to swim by being thrown in the water. You know, the older brothers take the the the younger brother out or the dad takes him out in the lake and they just throw him into the water. And you got to learn how to swim.

Now, obviously, the family's there if you go down You know, then you don't come up, they're there. But that's how people learn. It's panic, it's scary, but. That's how they learn. Do I recommend that method?

No, no.

Now, in c certain ways, I think practically we can learn certain things by being thrown in the fire in that respect, but with safety. Precautions, of course. But for me, this is what happened. I'm a new believer, memorizing scripture, loving the Lord. memorizing in English, could barely read Hebrew at all.

I mean, could read some letters, but didn't know what I was reading, the meaning of it.

Now I'm talking to these brilliant rabbis. They've been studying these issues since they were children, you know, and they're raised to learn Hebrew from their earliest days. And they said, hey, I'm doing what my father did, and he learned from his father and his father, his father, all the way back to Moses and Mount Sinai. And who are you to tell us these things? Very intimidating.

They were nice guys, most of them. A few of them tried to intimidate me, but most of them were very nice and gracious and took an interest in me as a young Jewish man. And they were jealous for my Jewish soul and so on. You know the Yeah, yeah. The the answers that I needed I couldn't find.

I I couldn't find in in other Uh, other books I couldn't find in the Christian books, there were brilliant Christian scholars, but these brilliant Christian scholars were insensitive to the Jewish objections. And the Jewish believers I went to were great for evangelism and stuff, but they weren't strong on apologetics and they had the Hebrew background and stuff. And so I basically had. How to learn to swim. by being thrown in the water.

I had to dig and come up with the answers, and then I began to get the sense that God wanted me to develop materials to help other Jewish believers and then to reach non-believers. And by God's grace, we've been able to do that.

So. don't look at it as a negative if if you're thrown in in the deep end of the pond or the deep end of the pool, I should say. Don't look at it as a negative. It may be God's way to train you. And here we have a police officer Detective, and through his methodology of evaluating a case and what's most likely and least likely, and things like that, he ends up becoming a top Christian apologist.

So, we're going to talk these things through. Again, if you've got a question from my guest, Jay Warner Wallace, number to call 866-348-7884. And be sure to go to thelineoffire.org. thelineoffire.org. Check out my latest articles and videos.

We're posting something new just about every day to bless you and edify you and strengthen you and encourage you. We will be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

All right, just a little over one week from now, the big apologetics conference. Hosted by Southern Evangelical Seminary, will be here. And one of the most popular speakers who will be at this conference is Jay Warner Wallace, the cold case apologist, a former homicide detective who's taken his detective skills into the realm of apologetics as a follower of Jesus. To find out about the conference, October 13th through 15th, the 13th is a women's only day, and then 14th and 15th. And you can live stream it, register to live stream anywhere in the world.

Go to ses.edu, s-es-dotedu. Hey, it is great to have you on the broadcast with us. Do I refer to you as Jay Warner or Warner? Just call me Jim. But Dr.

Brian, so glad to be here. People come to come forward with this all week. Oh, well, awesome. Thanks so much. For those who aren't familiar with your work, take us on the journey from homicide detective to popular Christian apologist.

Well, I started off as somebody who wasn't raised in a Christian environment, so I didn't really have any good role models or any examples of this around me, and I didn't really have anybody to ask those questions. And I was just being raised in the sixties and seventies, you kind of find yourself part of the Star Trek generation where you believe that In the end, science is going to have the answers for every important question that humans could ask. And I was one of those guys, and I was even pretty hostile toward the Christians I did know, because the few that I knew fell into one of two categories. Either they were the cops that I was working with, and we were working cases together, and these guys would have any number of five or six or ten good reasons to take somebody to jail. But if you asked them to give me five good reasons why you trust the scripture, or five good reasons why I should trust the resurrection actually occurred, they were just flummoxed.

And I thought, you know, if that's what it takes, if you have to have one view towards your professional work and how you assess evidence, and then another view entirely toward anything you believe as as a Christian. I just am not interested in that kind of thing. And then the other group of Christians I knew were the people I was taking to jail who would tell me they were Christians.

So these were not, both of these groups were not attractive to me. And so I, for the most part, was not only out, I was out kind of sarcastically. And most of my family, my dad, is still a very, very committed atheist.

So I just didn't have anybody I could really kind of bounce these ideas off of.

So when I first started looking at this, I I had to kind of start at zero. And investigated, you know, I was interested in Jesus originally just as my wife was interested in going to church. And she was not a believer, but she was at least interested in going to church.

So at thirty-five she drugged me along and we sat in a church service. that first time I've really been in a church service of this nature, never saw worship, for example, until this, you know, never had any experience of any of this. And sat there and listened to the pastor describe Jesus. At least at some point in that message, he described Jesus as the most. intelligent man who ever lived.

Smartest guy, you could ever. All of Western civilization has been grounded on the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. And I thought to myself, Well, you know, here I am enforcing the laws. of this culture. Maybe I ought to go back and just take a look and see if that's true, what this guy just said.

And so I bought a Bible and started to read through the Gospels to mine out the wisdom statements of Jesus. And of course, those are embedded in the Gospels. And so I ended up looking at the Gospels and asking myself the first question: boy, these do.

Sound and feel a lot like the multiple eyewitness accounts I examine working cold cases. And so I just started to look at that as a template. And started to look at how you would investigate any set of claims, and how do you know if those claims are reliable? And that's really the way I came in. I came in by first examining the Gospels as eyewitness accounts.

And when you speak of cold case, what exactly does that mean?

Okay, so. Every crime in America has a statute of limitations.

So if you do a robbery in the state of California where I am, I'm in the Los Angeles County area.

So if you do a crime here after a certain number of years, if it's a burglary or a robbery or a petty theft, these things expire and you cannot be pursued. As a suspect in those kinds of crimes, except for murder. Murder has no statute of limitations, and so across the country. murders, when they don't get solved, they stay open. And then years go by, sometimes decades.

My cases have been as old as nineteen seventy nine.

So you have these cases that are still open. They're cold because they haven't been worked in a long time, and they're all homicides.

So I was working homicide, robbery homicide anyway, and we were given these cases as collateral duties. But at some point, I got pretty successful at solving these, and we opened a detail, a special detail for just cold cases. And so now you see some of this on T V now, television shows have kind of picked up on it, because in a few places around the country there are dedicated cold case squads. And I was part of that and really enjoyed it. And I still have a case that I'm working with the DA.

that hopefully we'll finish sometime early next year. But this is kind of my expertise was. How do you examine an account about an event in the past when you no longer have access? To the witnesses that were interviewed back then, because they've died. And often you don't even have access to the officer who wrote the report.

because he has also passed away, or maybe he's entered to a point in his life where he can't help you.

So you're looking at supplemental reports in which you don't have access to the author or to what it is the author is, who it is the author is interviewing. And so that's very much, if you think about it, like the Gospels. How do we the same principles I could apply to determine if that supplemental report is reliable, I could apply to the Gospels. All right, so when you're looking at a case from a distance, people now watch TV, all the popular crime shows and the forensic evidence and things like that. There's a science to it, and then there's also something that, over a period of time, you can look for certain patterns and you can see what's reliable and what's not reliable.

So, what happens now with your own journey as you apply the skills you've learned as a cold case homicide detective to the gospels?

Well, I started to see things immediately in the Gospels that bugged me, because I didn't believe they were true. And at best, as I kind of walked through this, I might have granted to you that there was some truth in them. But you can find some claims about 19th century England that are probably true in the story of Peter Pan. It doesn't mean Peter Pan existed.

So I would have said there was some part of it that was true and a lot of it does not. And I would walk we kind of worked through it. I I kind of use the skill set I had. One of the things we do, for example, is that every little word that people use when they're working with us, if they're a suspect or a witness, words matter to detectives. We are we nitpick words.

because the choices you make when they are optional really tell me something about who you are.

So you know all adjectives and adverbs, for example, are optional words. You don't have to describe something with an adjective or an adverb. You may choose to, but you could certainly do it simpler without that optional word.

So when I see a suspect use those kinds of optional words, it gives me kind of some insight into their soul, right? I mean it gives me some insight into what they're really thinking. I can kind of read between the lines based on the use of optional words. Also the use of pronouns.

Well, how you describe me. Am I your friend Jim? Am I just Jim? Am I him? Am I that guy?

I mean, the way you pronounce you describe who I am and the kinds of words you use, that those are optional choices, that also tells me something about you. And I took that skill set, which it calls forensic statement analysis, And I started to read the scriptures kind of through That lens. Isn't it interesting that the author chose this word given the alternative words that were available to him? And what does that tell me about whether this is true or not, for example? And if it is true, what does it tell me about the mindset of the author?

And that's the kind of stuff that I was. I'm sure a lot of this happens a lot with textual criticism, but from my perspective, it was really coming down to this. expertise I had in forensic statement analysis, which almost always is used to determine if a bad guy is lying to you.

So it's deception indicators. It's all these things that we see that I could apply to the Gospels to and that was really my my concern was. My concern was this was a matter of historic deception.

So I wanted to use the skill set I had to see if I could find the earmarks of deception in the Gospels.

So, when you've done this, and now you've looked at other areas, you've looked at areas of, say, creation and scripture.

So, you found that this method can work on other theological truths or other truth claims just in general, historical claims, et cetera. And as you're applying this, there must be a certain excitement as you keep seeing the truthfulness of scripture emerging. Yeah, as a matter of fact, you're I think the first person has kind of asked me th th in that way, but but that's true. When I first started, I was so um intrigued. By the process and by what I was finding, that I would f get up every morning really early.

And I would start poring through the Gospels with my and I mean you use statement forensic statement analysis, you use colored pens, right, to indicate different things. When you're tracking tense, for example, or you're tracking just the pronoun use, or you're whatever you're tracking, you use different color to do it. I was up every morning and I would find something and I would go, wow, that is just wild. I'm sure other people had seen this years before, but for me, having no idea of what this Christian scholarship was, having no idea of the traditions of Christianity, simply coming at the text for the first time As a guy who's using that skill set, I would find these things and I would run to my wife and I would say, Look at this, look at this. I think I was probably driving her crazy with just the amount of time I would spend.

trying to show her this hidden thing I thought I had found in Scripture. And I was so passionate about it that it consumed me for sure. That's just the way I am anyway. I'm the kind of person who is either all in or all out. If you pique my interest, I'm going to lay into this.

I'm not a halfway kind of person about anything. That's been one of the things that's kind of helped me in working cold cases, but maybe it helped me or maybe it worked against me at least in the first year because I was just consumed by it. Got it. And by the way, the all-in or not in at all. Yeah, I relate to that.

Hey, folks, we've got a few more minutes with Jay Warner Wallace. He's going to be presenting on God's crime scene and on cold case Christianity at the Apologetics Conference.

So go to SES.edu, just coming next week. Don't want to miss it. Again, Jay Warner Wallace will be presenting on God's crime scene and on Cold Case Christianity. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Jay Borner Wallace, best-selling Christian apologist, known for his cold case Christianity. Jim, I want to grab a call for you because I know this is something near to your heart as well. We'll go to David in Flower Mound, Texas. Welcome to the line of fire. Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. Good to talk to you, David.

So I I went out to your website, coldcasechristianity.com, and one of the things that I saw that was kind of exciting was you have this new cold case Christianity for kids. Yeah.

So I've been involved with Apologetic through RZIM. You know who that is, Robbie Zacharias. Yeah.

So. Um, they primarily reach, you know, college and adult Mostly. Not not nothing. exclusively, but that's the primary target. But this idea of of reaching kids at at an earlier age How Uh do you approach it?

By both giving them, you know, as a defense attorney would, you know, the ability to give a defense. for all the skepticism and attack Uh and somehow encounter their heart so they're they're an actual witness Of of Christ, and it's not just, you know, trying to. um, be a really smart I don't you know, you know what I'm saying? Where it's both encounter and and but it's it's it's the ability for them to be able to Give a defense or a reason for the hope that they have. Yeah, no, absolutely.

So, here's what we're dealing with this. We started off just doing my whole journey through faith, my first chance to even minister to others, was in children's ministry and then in youth ministry. And it was in youth ministry that I realized that the crisis back, this is back in the late 90s, that was already occurring then, of young people who were going to secular colleges and walking away from their faith during those years.

Now, I had an anecdotal experience of that, but now the statistics have kind of borne that out. That is a dilemma. And we can argue this, those folks were never really with us to begin with, and so by the time they get to college, and then so, whatever, however you want to argue this, we know one thing for sure: young people that are with us in their either junior high or high school years don't seem to be with us in their college years.

So what can we do about that? And I think you're right, there's two approaches, right? There's a kind of a head and a heart issue that have to be addressed in balance.

So, what I've tried to do is to write the adult books. We've got two out so far: Cold Case Christianity and God's Crime Scene. Where now I've already outlined God's Crime Scene for kids. We want kids' books that address those same issues. The third in this journey is a book called Forensic Faith, which comes out next year, and there'll be a Forensic Faith for Kids as well.

And some of the issues you're talking about will be addressed more specifically in that volume. But I will tell you this. I kind of feel like the problem I see nationally as I travel and speak around the country is that we really have most of us Yeah. Possess a more emotional, responsive, kind of experiential faith. That's something I don't even have to train people to hold, because that's really where they are to begin with.

And my own personal journey was that my family was divided between atheists and woman's. I have no Christians in that group, but I did have Mormons, and my my dad's second wife is LDS. And I have six brothers and sisters all raised LDS. And what I just saw there was that they held a very similar faith to the some of the Christians I knew. Relatively unexamined, based on an experience they had that confirmed for them the truth of their worldview, And that's very much what I discovered with the Christians I found also.

Now it turns out there is an approach we could each take that would determine which of those two world views is true. But you're not going to be able to do it by way of trusting an experience of the Holy Spirit, because, believe it or not, both groups will tell you that they are trusting an experience of the Holy Spirit. We have to go another level, another kind of intellectual level to determine if that experience you're having really is from the Holy Spirit of God. And so that's why I wanted to kind of focus.

So to be honest with you, I kind of think we're at a place Where I needed to lean heavily in this direction to kind of pull people back to the center. But of course the risk is that we are ignoring experience and heart and the things that are really are important aspects of our faith in order to pull people back to center. Yeah, and David, thank you for the question very much. And Jim, thank you for the answer. Obviously, I wanted to get that addressed because reaching the younger generation is so important.

And I was thrilled to see when you began moving in that direction, Jim, because it's not something that many of us in apologetics think about because the questions coming away are more heady questions. But Josh McDowell says the objections he used to get from college-age students, he's getting out from 12 and 13-year-olds because of their exposure on the internet. And a lot of it is an emotional thing, but then it brings them to a worldview or a conviction. You know, they see a nice gay kid on Glee or someone on some MTV reality show or a kid on their, yeah, whatever it is. And now, or now there's going to be a transgender kid on Modern Family.

So now they've got that social propaganda that's come their way, that social indoctrination, but it now comes along with other information.

So we've got to help them on all these levels. And I think most churches are pretty well equipped to help people really come to know the Lord in an experiential way, you know, to pray and to ask him into their lives. But we tend not to be as well equipped to shore them up, to have an answer. And that's where we've got to say it's both an. It's heart and mind.

And we've just got two minutes left, but you're doing a presentation at the Apologetics Conference, October 13th through 15th, Southern Evangelical Seminary.

So SES.edu. You're doing one on cold case Christianity and one on God's crime scene. Give us the 90-second overview of God's crime scene. Yeah, no problem.

So what we try to do in God's crime scene is take a very crime scene-centric approach to the universe. In other words, we know when we walk into death scenes, that one of the ways we separate whether that's a death scene or an actual criminal murder, because there's four ways to die, only one is criminal, is to ask the question: can we account for all the evidence? In the room by staying in the room. If there's a pistol in the room and he's got a gunshot injury, well, is that his pistol? Did it start off in the room?

Is he the only person we have any evidence of ever having been in the room?

Well, if that's the case, it's probably an accidental or a suicide. On the other hand, if that gun doesn't belong there and I've got bloody footprints leading out of the room, well, now the better explanation for the evidence in the room is something outside the room.

Now everything shifts to homicide.

So I simply ask the same question of the universe. Can I explain everything in the universe by staying in the room? If I can, then some form of naturalism will get the job done. If, on the other hand, there's stuff in the room that's better explained by something outside the natural universe, Well now I've got another intruder like I had in the first case, only this intruder spans the entire cosmos.

So if you've never heard of the SES National Conference, and most people have, but if you haven't, go to conference.scs.edu because the roster of people they bring to this conference is crazy. You will learn so much in a short period of time. Be ready to overwhelm, take good notes, do what you can to absorb all this information because it's one of the two best days for thinking intelligently about your faith. Yeah, and you know, when I'm there speaking, uh I I end up spending so much time just talking to different people, presenters, and teams at their tables that I end up accomplishing about one-tenth of what I planned because it's so interesting and they're fields outside of my field.

So it is a great time. All the information on the SES website, SES.edu. And Jim, I'm so thrilled to see how God is using you and the audience He's giving you. May the truth continue to triumph. Michael, you are very kind.

I so appreciate your partnership, buddy. Oh, thank you. All right, friends, to go to Jay Walner Wallace's website, coldcasechristianity.com. If you've never read any of his books, get some. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I am going to do something I didn't plan to do. but it's my show and it's live. That means I can do it.

So You've got questions, we've got answers. Yes, we do that on Friday, and we will be doing it, God willing, on Friday. I should be coming away live from California in the midst of a great conference taking place there. But, but, I want to give you some extra time. If you have a question of any kind whatsoever, As long as it's appropriate for Christian radio.

If it's one that would normally be Jewish-related to ask on a Thursday, you can ask it today. If it's any other Bible-related question, theology-related question, ministry, conflict, spiritual growth, moral, cultural, anything in any area where I have any expertise, apologetics or the like, give me a call, 866-348-7884. And A question for you. If you are a believer in Jesus. And a believer in the New Testament scriptures, the whole Bible for that matter.

Do you believe that there are demons here today in this world? Demons. Yeah.

I don't mean that you have to believe that they are little creatures with. They're they're all red with horns and Pointy tails, and there's Satan is the big demon of all, you know, the devil himself, and he's all red the Pointy horns and tail, and all of that. I don't mean you have to depict them like that, but. Do you believe that there really are demons demonic powers Spiritual forces of evil. Regardless of their origins, are they fallen angels or something else?

You believe in their existence.

Now, let me tell you why I asked this.

Some years ago, I read a manuscript by one of my grads. on the subject of demons and deliverance. And uh As I was reading the book, I was convicted that although I know these things to be true. The things of which he spoke. I know them to be true.

I was convicted that I was not. really reckoning with demonic power. I was not really reckoning with demonic entities sufficiently in my Praying, in other words, knowing there's warfare, knowing there's battle, that even though I was engaging in spiritual battle, that I wasn't considering it adequately. And years back when I taught on this subject, and then we put it together in a tape series, used to be cassette tape, now you can do digital download or CD, angels, demons, and deliverance. I went through every reference in the Bible, and then specifically in the New Testament, to angels and demons.

And was struck, even though I knew it when you would look at the data. How many references to demons there were, especially in the ministry of Jesus and the Gospels, but then in the Acts as well, and then the recognition of this war we have with Satan and his forces.

Now, I'm not focused on the devil. My focus is not on a big, bad devil. My focus is on a great, wonderful God. That's where my focus is. And my emphasis is praying to him, not addressing demons.

Yet there is spiritual warfare. There are demonic powers. And many times we don't Recognize how real they are.

So yeah, there is the extreme of finding a demon under every rock. and that everything is a demon and whatever happened is a demon. And you know, if we have a power outage, it must have been a demon. There's the other extreme of not recognizing that there's a real spiritual war and that we have a real spiritual foe.

So I want to encourage you. To take the biblical witness. Seriously. All right. And get my series on angels, demons, and deliverance.

It's just about free when you order Michael Heiser's book, The Unseen Realm. And then you get also the one-hour interview that we did together. But be sure to check out this week's resource offer. We're extending it one more week. And I'm going to replay in this hour tomorrow my interview with Dr.

Heiser that was at a different time last week. I want you to get the benefit of hearing.

So, to find out more, go to my website, thelineoffire.org. When we come back, I'm going to go straight to your calls. Hey friends, this is Michael Brown. I want to encourage you to join our support team today. Become a torchbearer, one of our regular monthly supporters that enables us to broadcast the line of fire around America and around the world.

And oh, every month we sew back into you in many, many different ways. Join our team, become a torchbearer. Go to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, and click on donate. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame.

Say And the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, thank you for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7. 884 the number to call. Yeah, I know it's not Friday and we'll do this again gall bowling on Friday, but Just having a little fun now and taking your questions on any subject under the sun you want to ask me. You've got questions, we've got answers. As long as it's appropriate for Christian radio, there's nothing that's on subject or off-subject in that respect.

As long as I can be of help to you. All right. We start in Dallas with Harry. Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, thank you.

I'm excited to be on. I just had a quick question for you about, I guess, Nephilim or the giants of the Old Testament. Yeah.

I just wanted to get some insight. I know it's kind of a weird subject, but if Noah and the flood and that, you know, wiped out all the Nephilima, all the giants. And I wanted to just get your insight on why you think There were still giants around when Joshua and the other Israelites went to spy on the Promised Land. and there were giants there. How in the world does the flood wiped them all out?

Right, so there are two ways of reading this, all right? First, the most Plain reading of the text in Genesis 6 is that the sons of God. That refers to angelic beings that somehow were able to take on human form, and not just take on human form, but able to procreate with women. The idea that sons of God is the godly line of Seth and daughters of men is the ungodly line of Cain, I don't see that as supportable.

So that's why, for example, the New Jewish Publication Society version says it was then and later too that the Niphileim appeared on earth when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.

So there's one reading that says, one way of understanding it, that they were on the earth in those days and also afterwards when these things happened, but they were all wiped out by the flood. In which case, why do you have people called Nephilim afterwards or different ones, Anachim, Riphaim, that seem to be related to them, and they seem to be a race of giants if they were wiped out by the flood?

Well, the answer would be, look, the text tells us. That they were on the earth then before the flood, and also. Afterwards.

So again, read it, say the NET, the Niflim were on the earth in those days, and also after this, when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of Yumen Khan who gave birth to their children.

So the understanding then would be. That this continued after the flood as well. My guest, Dr. Michael Heiser, was on last week. We'll replay that interview at this time tomorrow because we played at a different time last week.

He believes that the Nephilim continued, that these acts of these sons of God and daughters of men continued after the flood. And that they were then ultimately wiped out by the ancient Israelites and others. And there are even some who say that the reason that the Israelites were supposed to exterminate the Canaanites, even children, was because they were a mixed breed. They were part of this mixed breed. You know, there was the old movie Rosemary's Baby and she gives birth to the offspring of Satan.

You know, it would almost be that type of concept.

Now, that's not what Dr. Heiser holds in terms of that's everyone that was being wiped out. But that, yeah, it happened in the days of the flood and. afterwards. as well.

How it stopped. When God ultimately stopped this procreation, this reproduction, the text doesn't tell us, but it does seem that there was a race of giants that continued after the flood and that they were ultimately wiped out. And there's some who claim the race of giants is still around in different parts of the world. You see these YouTube videos where they've got like a foot of a human that's like 10 feet long and all this, and say they're still around. But as far as I know, that's just a YouTube video.

Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, and look, I mean, there's even crazier stuff that the Nifilim, that's the UFOs. It's just, it goes wild. You know, the less the Bible says about something, the more crazy the theories. The crazier the ideas.

But it could be they were wiped out at the flood. I had once read it like that. I think you can make the good argument that they continued after the flood. It was a principal reason for the flood, and certainly why these people were then wiped out by the Israelites as well.

So there you go, and thank you for asking. By the way, the word Nifile, we don't know exactly what it means for sure. It does. Come from the root apparently nafal. Does it mean those who fell upon?

Does it mean fallen ones? We don't know for sure. All right, since we went to Harry in Dallas, let's go to Gary in Dallas. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you very much.

Kind of a two part question. When we recognize our spouse, our family, my sisters in particular, when I go to heaven, when I recognize them as my sisters here on earth, And will I have any recall of life on earth at all? Yes. The Bible gives us limited information about the world to come. Tells us what we need to know rather than what we want to know.

And one reason is that if God told us everything we want to know, we wouldn't even understand the answers or even have the capacity to process them. That being said, We know that there will not be marrying and procreation in heaven. Jesus tells us that.

So our relationship would be different in that respect. But if you look, for example, in Revelation chapter 6, it says that when the fifth seal is opened, John sees under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, O sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on earth?

So they obviously remember what happened to them and know the judgment that is due. And when you realize that relationships are the meaning of life, That to be with the Lord forever and to be with our friends and family in the Lord forever, that's part of the beauty of eternal life. The idea that we wouldn't be able to know who they were would be very bizarre. I would need scripture telling me that those things would cease to be. Otherwise, I would absolutely assume that they would be.

Revelation 22 even speaks of the kings of the earth bringing their splendor into the new Jerusalem, suggesting that there's even beauty and diversity of different cultures and backgrounds that would come in, that would be part of the beauty of the eternal kingdom.

So we don't know, Gary. Let's say. That seeing a certain person in this world It gives you a terrible feeling of guilt. You know, let's say that you felt you had let someone down, or let's say that this person that you knew had destroyed their marriage through adultery and had really hurt. You know, maybe he's married to your sister.

And when you see him, you feel that pain.

Well, obviously, in the world to come, if that person is right with God, you're not going to be smitten with that pain and have ungodly memories.

So there's certain things. What's going to happen is hard to say. It does say God will remove every tear from our eyes and sorrow and sighing will cease. But aside from that, I fully expect to enjoy eternity together with Nancy, with our kids, with our grandkids, with people that we dearly love that are in the Lord. And that'll be part of what makes heaven heaven.

Heaven. But thank you for asking. 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go to Mark in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire.

Hi, Doctor Brown. How's it going? I'm doing well, thank you.

So I have a question. It's related to the sovereignty of God when it comes to people.

So basically, I'm wondering, does God ordain evil? Because I recognize some people say that, um evil exists because of free will. But the problem is if If God has a problem with evil, if God cannot stand the sight of evil or sin, How is it that he's led Our free will override his desire to avoid sin and to get rid of evil, because that is, after all, his nature. Yes, and and when you say ordain evil Explain exactly what you mean by ordain evil. Right, so I you know Because I've thought it through my head and um I there are two options, right?

So it's either God is all powerful and sovereign. In which case He has control every over every situation. evil included, in which case He allows evil to occur, thereby Ordain in it, right?

So Or is all good and He doesn't have the sovereignty to stop evil. It it I I feel like it can't be It has to be one or the other. Because either way, the difference I would have with you, Mark, and I love the fact that you're asking these important questions. is for God to allow something or for God to give us a choice does not mean that he ordains Our response. Or that he ordains the result of our choice.

There are some who say that Adam sinned. because God ordained it. No, I say God ordained that Adam could have absolute freedom to say yes to God or no to God.

So God ordained Adam's freedom, and then Adam freely chose to do wrong, thereby actuating evil.

So God does not do evil. It is contrary to his nature, he's light, and in him is no darkness at all. But in his eternal purposes and in his great sovereignty. He has created the world in which we can make choices and bear the consequences of those choices, and through which he will ultimately work out his will. Stay right there.

It's fire we want for fire we Please stand to the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire: 866-348-7-884. Michael Brown, my joy. To be with you.

So, just want to finish up with Mark and Raleigh. Mark. When God ordains something Uh if if he ordains you To be the next president of the United States.

So, this is his will. He's going to carry it out and see that it happens. If he ordains that if people cross a certain line, that he will bring judgment on them, that's what he ordains. If he ordains if people refuse his grace, they will perish. That's what he ordains.

But he also ordained that people would have a choice and that we would then live or die by the consequences of those choices.

So, when evil, yeah, go ahead. I just wanna so here's the thing. We all recognize that eventually in heaven there will be no sin. Is it possible that I'm I'm assuming in this situation in heaven, our free will is still preserved and yet somehow we choose not to commit sin.

So, I do kind of wonder that if God has a setup like that sometime in the future. where we can only lift In perfect harmony with our free will preserved and yet still not commit sin. Why didn't he set up something like that right from the beginning? Why didn't he set up a situation where we kind of lived in perfect harmony with our free will preserved and still will choose not to commit sin? Right, because there would have been no choice.

You see, for those of us that will be with him forever. And never sin, we have made our choice. We have asked for His mercy. We have said, Jesus, we want you to be our Lord. And therefore, having made that choice, having seen the ugliness of sin and the destruction that it brings, we've cried out for mercy.

And now He will bring us to a place where not only do we have a holy nature, but there's no possibility of sin, no devil, no flesh, no temptation.

However, if He put us in an environment where there was no choice to start, where there was no possibility to disobey, then basically we never would have freely chosen Him out of our love, out of love, or responded to His grace.

So it was necessary for there to be true freedom because love is not coerced. That He had to put Adam and Eve in a situation where they could obey or disobey the same with the angelic beings, and ultimately, forever, it will work out. For the best, there's much pain and suffering in the process, but it's all part of the larger plan through which God would be glorified. I hope that makes sense. And as you process it, I hope it falls into place for you.

But thank you, sir, for calling. I do appreciate it. We could probably go on for hours. I want to get to some other calls, but hopefully that addresses the question. Also, if you go to my website, thelineoffire.org, just click on the digital library and search for ERMIN, E-H-R-M-A-N.

where I debate Professor Bart Ehrman. And I think you'll find a lot of what we cover in the debate to be very relevant to the subject. Thank you, sir, for these important questions. Let's go to Izzy in Fort Worth, Texas. Thanks for calling the line of fire.

Thanks for taking my call, Dr. Brown. Sure. Um I um I had a question As far as the um the return of Christ, I was um Well, I guess just kind of go over what I'm talking about here. The um Passover and Pentecost were both fulfilled on the day of.

And as far as I understand it, the Feast of Tabernacles is when would be fulfilled when Jesus returns.

So I'm just wondering if that is the case Would he return on the day of the Feast of Tabernacles? And you know, Yeah, so let me just go ahead and do that. Let me then run through this.

So, the Messiah dying as the Passover Lamb that takes place right at the time of Passover. His resurrection is the first fruits celebration during Passover, the first day after the Sabbath. The outpouring of the Spirit takes place at Pentecost, the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot. And then, actually, I would say that the next holiday which points to the Messiah's return is trumpets.

So the feast of trumpets or Yom Truah, the day of the shofar blast, which in traditional Judaism becomes Rosh Hashanah, the beginning of the new year. But the reason I say that is because it tells us in Matthew 24, it tells us in 1 Corinthians 15, it tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4, it tells us in Revelation 11 that the Messiah returns with the sound of the trumpet, the blasting of the trumpet. And then that's followed by atonement for Israel, and then that's followed by the ingathering of the nations. Zechariah 14, the survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem now come together, but the Lord has already come and placed his feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah chapter 14.

So the question would be, it's the same question, though. That, whatever the feast is, can we expect the Messiah to come on that literal day? The gentleman that wrote the unfortunate book, 88 Reasons Why Jesus is Coming in 1988, whatever the day was of Rosh Hashanah, he said that was the day Jesus was going to come. It was like September 12th, the 13th, whatever it was of 88. And when people asked me, people asked me, am I going to read his book?

Let's say it was the 12th Jesus was supposed to come, I'd smile to them and tell them, I'm going to read it on the 13th. Lord's 13th, he hasn't come and it's not going to be relevant. But it's a fair argument to make based on what happened with the first feast, the spring feast. But the problem is then you would know the day or the hour. And Yeshua said plainly that no man knows the day or the hour.

We should know the times and seasons, but no one knows the day or the hour.

So to me, I look at it as typifying. To me, I look at it as prophetic and symbolic. Could it happen on that day? It's possible. Would I expect it to happen on that day?

No. Because no one knows the day or the hour.

So that would mean that the first feast. Took place exactly as those things were unfolding, and the fall feast would point to them symbolically.

Now, that being the case, Izzy, an argument against my position would be. That it seems that tabernacles, which follows immediately after the Messiah's return, literally is everybody coming up to Jerusalem right after he returns. I just don't see how we can get around the idea of no one knowing the day or the hour. Hey, friends, I'm out of time, but if you had called to get on the air today, I'll do my best. If you call again on Friday, I'll do my best to get to your calls first.

Since I didn't get you today and we did a quick unexpected, you've got questions, we've got answers.

So if you're able to call back, as I'm just looking at some of the good questions here for me, if you're able to call back on Friday, I'll do my best to get to you then. And be sure to tune in tomorrow on Thursday Jewish Thursday. We're going to be replaying my interview with Dr. Michael Heiser from last week on his book, The Unseen Realm. Folks really, really profited from that interview.

They were really blessed and helped by it.

So, hopefully, you'll be able to tune in tomorrow and listen. And when you order The Unseen Realm, you get that whole interview free, along with my whole 12-tape series, 12-tape, 12-hour series on angels, demons, and deliverance, all at thelineoffire.org. My bottom line. Today. I've said it before, but if you want to avoid crashing into the walls, falling into ditches, stay in the middle.