What Is the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation)

The NAR, the new apostolic reformation. What is it? Is it of God, the flesh, the devil? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire today. I hope to have a lively, productive, interesting, and important broadcast. Remember to call 866-34TRUTH-866-348-7884. I will take some calls.

Well, you know what? I'm not going to take election-related calls today. And I want to focus in on some other issues of importance to the body now. A few things in a preliminary way. Again, number to call 866-348-7884.

If You still have concerns about the issue I did with Pastor Bill Johnson a couple of weeks ago, getting a lot of attention online, a lot of views on the YouTube channel. It was an audio interview, but posted on YouTube. And you haven't been able to call the other times we open the phones. By all means, give me a call. I'm not here to bark at you or get angry with you.

You may have valid concerns or questions. Please give me a call. If You have concerns with what is Call the NAR the New Apostolic Reformation. Dr. Peter Wagner just went to be with the Lord a few days ago.

And some of his staunch critics call him a false prophet, false apostle. Others look at him as a major charismatic leader and pioneer. Others have a somewhat mixed mindset, viewpoint. If you have issues, we've put this online, we've posted this, so we've gotten this word out to lots and lots of people. I'd like to hear from you today.

I understand that people work and have jobs, but we have our phone lines flooded with calls all the time, which means that there are folks that can call during this time.

So if you have concerns, if you have questions, Please give me a call. And lastly, one more time, we did this an hour and a half last week. I want to give you one more opportunity. This is not a time for doctrinal Clarity. Hey, could you explain what this scripture means on this charismatic issue?

But if you have questions and concerns about things that you have heard about regarding the charismatic movement, Regarding revival movements and things like that. Please give me a call. It is my goal to help clarify. based on scripture and scriptural Principles, all right? Yes, I myself It would be characterized as charismatic Pentecostal in that I believe that speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, miracles are for today, and that God is doing these things around the world.

He's not a celestial bellboy. We don't just snap our fingers and manufacture a miracle. We are servants of the Lord. He is the sovereign God who rules and reigns, but he has determined to glorify Jesus through these acts of compassion and power and around the world. The vast majority of people coming to faith around the world for many years now have come through God's power in conjunction with the gospel, through healing, deliverance, just as in the book of Acts, just as in the ministry of Jesus.

It is not separate from the word, it is in confirmation of the word and in demonstration of the resurrection of Jesus. And with that, with the massive growth of the charismatic Pentecostal movement worldwide, there are abuses. There are charlatans, there are problems, and as one within the movement, I've sought to address those for decades, including one whole book, Whatever Happened to the Power of God, which came out in 1991, the subtitle being Is The Charismatic Church Slain in the Spirit, a Down for the Count. Plus, many, many messages and parts of other books devoted to this. I've also been in one of the most significant revivals of the 20th century.

The Brownsborough Revival served as a leader there for four years and an eyewitness in more than 2,000 meetings over that period of time. And I can tell you firsthand what God did, and yet people say, well, that was a phony movement. It wasn't really the Holy Spirit. Let's talk about it. Let's clarify this.

If God is moving, we want to get behind it. If it's counterfeited to the flesh, we want to resist it. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire 866-348-7884. Even now during the break, during the short two-minute break, I've invited folks on Twitter raising issues about certain spiritual things, charismatic issues, etc. I have.

I have asked Uh I've asked folks, well, call in. You've got a concern? Call in. I've also challenged those that hide behind the cloak of anonymity online and post blatant falsehoods. blatant falsehoods.

I mean, one website, I'm not even gonna mention it online because I don't even want to, on the radio, I don't even want to draw any attention to it. But it blasts me as a as a new apostolic reformation apostles. What? Explain. One have I claimed to be an apostle?

When have I been worked with Dr. Peter Wagner side by side and part of his organization? I don't even know what people are talking about. And I mean, they'll post things that are blatantly false. Just false information.

I remember reading one paragraph online where I think five out of the six sentences having to do with me were simply false. Not a matter of interpretation, but it's false. All right, if I knew who the person was. I deal with them. When they hide behind a cloak of anonymity, hey.

You may be excommunicated from a local church in bad standing. You may have been kicked out of a Bible college in bad standing, and then you go to website So it's only right and fair that we know who the person is. You may be 18 years old. and with no experience in ministry whatsoever.

So it's it's important. that we know who we're dealing with. Jesus says that those who have the truth come into the light that their deeds may be made manifest.

So I've got no secrets, I've got no skeletons in the closet. If I've made a mistake, the whole world knows about it. Oh man, sorry. I mean, if I say something on the radio the other day, you know, after a massacre in Nice, France, I actually said nice. And I said, did I pronounce it nice?

You got to be kidding.

So, I mean, if I blunder, the whole world's going to know about it in that respect.

Sorry. Of course, that's just a minor example there. But by all means, If you have issues, if you have concerns, call it. You may have valid issues. You may have valid concerns, or you may have concerns based on misinformation and falsehood.

Let us sort things out. And Twitter is not the place to do it.

Okay, Twitter I only have like 23,000 followers. But Facebook we have almost 450,000. And then every day stuff pours in, and then like 25,000 on YouTube and elsewhere. And every day, emails pour in. My staff can't even keep up with it, let alone me.

I'm not going to get into a four-hour Twitter debate, 140 characters at a time. With someone I don't even know. That when I say, hey, tell you what, I can't do this. Would you please drop me from the conversation? They'll send 30 more tweets until finally I block them simply because that's disrespectful and it's destructive rather than constructive.

But Let me just point a couple things out, and then I'm going to go to your phone calls. All right.

Somebody posted this earlier today, and again, I don't see lots of. Of Facebook comments. I don't see the vast, vast majority of them, but I happened to see this one from earlier today. Oh, let me just find this. Uh let's see.

Uh okay, hang on. No, is that it? Typical Pharaoh, Dr. Brown is a typical Pharisee apologist. No, that's because I'm Jewish.

That's not it. Just looking for a more recent one here. Yeah, someone blasted me. They're not going to follow me any longer. I was part of the Browns were revival, which was another experience-based fad.

Well, it's 100% false. One hundred percent false. This was a true, glorious outpouring. Church historians said it's the longest-lasting local church revival in American history. Hundreds of thousands of people dramatically touched, saved, delivered, and many of them.

uh transformed to this day twenty years later. We have folks that have been on the mission field now touching the revival, they've been on the mission field serving God, preaching Jesus, laying their lives down for others for 15 years. And you have critics that ever been to one service and saw YouTube called Well, that's just experience base. That's unfortunate. That is really, really unfortunate.

Here, this one website brands me an NAR Apostle. Actually to or narpossal. That's cute. What's it supposed to mean? I'm not an apostle and reclaim to be an apostle.

And I'm not part of the, quote, new apostolic reformation. Here, I listened to your interview with Bill Johnson of Bethel. You are woefully ignorant. There are pictures of Jen others from Bethel, graves sucking, soaking, so Bill likes you. See That's extraordinary.

To say Bill Johnson lied to me. Bill repudiated the practice. And his executive pastor, Chris Vallatin, repudiated the practice. And whether some people never denied that some people may have done it, but repudiated it. And yet, someone's going to call him a liar.

That to me is really unfortunate. You say, Yeah, I saw a picture of his wife. sitting on C. S. Lewis's grave site.

What was she doing? Was she praying? God raise up C.S. Lewis's today. Was she saying, God, you use C.S.

Lewis, use me?

Well, she's saying, God, whatever you gave him. Give me? Fine. I don't have a problem with any of that. Let God decide how he answers that?

Was she trying to suck up the anointing from his grave? If so, that's ridiculous, that's erroneous, that's stupid. That's misguided. But if so, Bill Johnson's publicly saying we repudiate that, even if his wife did it. And I have no idea what that, but people send me these pictures of people laying on a grave and like trying to.

Yeah, some people have done it. That's why Bill Johnson repudiated it. That's why Chris Valadin repudiated it. But anyway, there are pictures of there are the glory clouds of gold glitter to dupe people. Uh Into an experience.

Well, if somebody was manufacturing something You know, having this gold dust in front of a vent to give an appearance. Yeah, that's horrific. If that actually happened at Bethel. I'd denounce it and I'd contact Bill and Chris today and say, what happened? I need a statement from you guys.

What happened?

Okay. But if The I I saw a video one time. And suddenly people start screaming and shouting because it looks like there's a visible cloud in the meeting, which Perfectly fine with me. It's got scriptural precedent. But the clip I saw, Bill, said, Don't pay attention to that, just focus on the Lord and let's keep worshiping.

So what's wrong with that? Um Then I heard that you as well as Bill were caught up in other experiential facts such as the Brownsville revival. Bill was there as well as Pensacola and Ontario. I think I mean Toronto. I was never in Toronto myself.

But Brownsburg Revival, that was Pensacola. But it's not an experiential fact. See, it's people speaking out of ignorance. That's what... troubles me.

Not honest questions, and if there are abuses, let's address them. If there are abuses, let's address them. And let me use my platform of national radio and elsewhere to address them with you. Fair enough? And if it's a false criticism, let's address that.

All right, full lines are jammed, which is wonderful. I'm going to go to your phone calls momentarily. Let me just give you an example of something. JJ, play clip number one. This is from a teaching of Bill Johnson.

Clip number one. Today I have begotten you. The second song. You're my beloved son. Today I have begotten you.

Acts thirteen tells us That that phrase From the Father, today I have begotten you. is in reference to the resurrection.

So he was born through Mary the Virgin. And then he was born again. in resurrection.

Okay. Now When Bill says that. Does he mean? And I've seen whole websites and YouTube clips just based on those words. Bill Johnson holds to the erroneous teaching of E.W.

Kenyon and some word of faith teachers that Jesus suffered in hell and died in hell and was demonized and then was raised up as a glorified man, and that's what it means he was born again. I utterly, categorically, reject that teaching as false and destructive and heretical. Period.

Okay. I have no place for that, no tolerance for that. I don't accept on any level anyone that says that Jesus became demonized in hell and actually died in a literal way and then was raised up as a glorified man, that is heretical. And I categorically reject it, period. without qualification.

But I have no clue That's what Bill believes.

Now, if that's the case, then please get me that clip. Because based on that clip, all Bill is saying is that that according to the New Testament, Jesus was declared to be the Son of God. He was the Son of God before he came into the world, yes. He was declared to be the Son of God as birth. Luke 1.35, that holy thing to be born of you will be called the Son of God.

And he was declared to be the Son of God with his resurrection. This day I have given you birth. Psalm 2 is applied to the resurrection. And all Bill's doing is quoting that. You say, well, he explains the rest of the message.

Well, then tell me the rest of the message because that clip is online saying that based on that, Bill Johnson held to the C.W. Kenyon teaching. If he did, I differ with it and I repudiate it without hesitation. But I have no evidence that he did. All I know is that that clip is used to demonstrate something.

Give me more context. If he teaches it, there's got to be a clip. His messages are out there. I'm not denying it. I'm simply saying, give me that.

Because all he did was say, isn't this interesting? Acts 13 applies Psalm 2, This day I have begotten you to the resurrection.

So Jesus was born again through the resurrection based, because he was born first and then born again through it. What did he mean? Got to get clarification. If you have it, please give it to me. Phone calls next.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us, 866-34Truth, as we talk about contemporary charismatic issues, NAR new apostolic reformation, good thing, bad thing from above, from man from below. I want to take your calls, your concerns. You may have a valid concern that I'll agree with. You may have a concern that I feel is misguided that I'll do my best to correct.

You may raise a question that I'm, let's look into it. Let's find out what's what. But my only goal is to separate. fact from fiction, and help us to major on the majors. Because whether God is moving in in certain charismatic ways that people claim or not, we all agree we've got to major on the majors, on Jesus as Lord and Scripture as our authority, and living lives that are godly and being disciples and making disciples.

Do these things enhance? Are they neutral? Do they distract? Are they scriptural? That's what we want to talk about.

All right, straight to the phones. We start in West Bloomfield, Michigan. Patrick, thank you so much for calling the line of fire. Thank you, Dr. Brown.

Yeah, so I'm uh Just a regular guy. Um I'm uh A Christian that's 54 years old, gone through a lot over the years. My parents raised me Catholic, brought me all the way over to the Name it and claim it, and then I left all of that. And then, you know, thank God now I have just a very simple, solid relationship with the Lord. I love you, and I think you are an amazing teacher, an amazing scholar.

Um I think you present such a tremendous benefit to the body of Christ. And I have just one criticism that, if I could share it, I'd, you know. cherry sort of criticism as just one brother to another. I'm not you know, somebody that's a theologian, I'm not college educated, but Growing up in the environment that I did, there's something that is so. um just off by one degree, the way I describe it.

Um I always describe if your relationship with the Lord is off just by one degree, you're not going to know it. For years to come. And for example, if you shoot a rocket to the moon and they're off by one degree, they're not going to know it until they miss it.

So, you know, just out of my own experience, every time I've heard Bill Johnson or Benny Hinn or, Um all of these I'll call weird things that are occurring. That they take away from Christ, put the focus on self. And it's It's a distraction. I don't have a problem with speaking in tongues. I don't have a problem with the Lord doing healing.

I don't have a problem with the charismatic movement in general. Um I you know I think a lot like for example I saw you tell you what let me just jump in just to be fair to other callers I I think you raised the point clearly and very humbly and and and I I appreciate it So your constructive criticism with me would be any association. This is my construction criticism. Thank you. Because of your passion for the Charismatic movement, because of your love for it and just you're you're involved in it.

My opinion, just again, is that it's a blind spot for you when you interview people like Bill Jensen or Benny Hinn. I know that you mean well. I know your heart is in the right place, but I think that because you're so close to it, You don't see what a lot of us Maybe that have come out of this movement have seen. Right. All right.

So, so, yeah, let me, let me, let me, let me respond.

Okay. And again, I'm only jumping in because our phone lines are jammed. I want to get to as many as possible. First, I appreciate your point. And all of us can have blind spots, which is why we listen with humility and pray about things, and which is why my wife is always speaking into my life in 100 different areas.

So could I have a blind spot? Sure. You could have a blind spot, a reactionary one as well, right?

So we all could. When it comes to Benny Hann, again, I accepted an invitation to be on his show. Main reason was I wanted to get the Hypergrace. Message and book out to his viewing audience because I knew a lot of other teachers on TBN and networks that he's on would listen to that. And unfortunately, that broadcast did not air.

That's one thing. Secondly, I knew there were tons of bad guys associated with Benny Hannon and all kinds of bad reports. I also had some folks that got close to him and said, hey, he's not who you think he is. You should get to know him. I said, great.

I will get to know him. I'll be on his TV show. And if there are errors, then hopefully I can be of help to him behind the scenes. Unfortunately, no relationship came about after the show. I did write to him privately and urge him to repudiate his fundraising techniques and some of the people he has on the air.

So, I did call him to account for that. And it may have been a mistake to go on the show because it confused a lot of people.

So, I accept that. It may have been a mistake. As for Bill Johnson, Bill and I have been in several similar circles for years and ministered together in different settings. I preached at Bethel a few years ago. I have grads from our school that served there in the church for years.

I have others that have been there regularly, and they're all about Jesus. They love the Lord. They're really excited about the Lord, winning the lost. It's never a self-thing. I see that fruit consistently.

But here's the deal: having Bill on the air. I and Bill's a friend. We don't spend a lot of time together, but we're friends. We know each other. And again, I know people that have been in his church and school for years and years and years.

And they're very excited about what the Lord's doing there, and very excited about the Lord, and excited about holiness and purity, and winning the lost, and so on.

So when I was asked about having Bill on because he had a new book come out, I said, I'd love to, but you know, there's a lot of controversy around Bill's ministry. And as long as he's willing to let me have people call in with their criticisms and me to raise some honest questions, I'm happy to do it. And Bill said, great, let's do it.

So, I had just a few things. I was going to play a couple of clips and a couple of concerns that were raised. I was going to raise them and leave the rest to call because nobody called. We publicized it to hundred to millions of people, literally. Call it, no, nobody called.

So I'm perfect and hopefully more people are calling about it today. But I still haven't gotten The actual doctrinal teaching from Bill's mouth that is heretical. If someone brings it up, Fine, I'm not going to deny it, I'll confront it. But it was not there. If people are going to condemn him as a heretic because sometimes they say a cloud appears in their meetings, I've got no scriptural issue with that.

And I've actually seen it happen myself. Yes, with my own eyes, in complete settings where nobody else was there. I mean, a small group of people. It doesn't disturb me in the least. Why would it?

But I've never heard Bill draw attention to it. Quite the contrary. His whole thing is bringing people to God. Bringing people to God.

So, by all means, let folks bring up substantive issues and we'll address them. And there are plenty of substantive issues with Benny Hinn's prophecies and with guests on his show that I repudiate and differ with, and the fundraising, etc. No issue with it, and I've written to him about it privately because I did not have ongoing public access. All right, so that's where we left it. But as far as Bill, I asked critics to call and they didn't.

I gave another hour and a half last week and they didn't.

So hopefully today. We'll hear from more. But Patrick, I would say perhaps that your weakness Is that you haven't been, say, in Bill's meetings for a period of months to see the community, see the fruit? If I was there, would I differ with certain things? Absolutely.

Would I have issues with certain things? Absolutely. Will I take issue with people branding him a false prophet and heretic? Absolutely. But, sir, thank you for the call and let's all.

Continue to grow in Jesus. All right, friends, I've got a break coming up, but I'm ready to take calls for another 90 minutes, at least a half an hour, but another 90 minutes if you want to get in. 866-566. Three four truth. Oh.

and for everyone who's ever had to deal with the stronghold of food. Either dealing with obesity or gluttony or bad health because of bad eating habits or just being out of control. Nancy and I have a book, Breaking the Stronghold of Food. It releases January 3rd, but you can get a pre-ordered, numbered, signed copy in time for Christmas, but only through our website, The Line of Fire. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Does the takeover involve kind of a strategic thought-out process? Is it potentially a violent type of takeover of these areas? I mean, how far does this movement potentially go? Yeah. Yeah.

That was David Pachman.

Now, listen, David has enough crazy guests on his show that I guess he thinks there's reason to ask. But the so-called Dominionism movement where Christians want to take over the society, how far is it going to go? Is it going to resort to violence that he has a guest on that's going to answer that? But I just want to say this about so-called New Apostolic Reformation. And then I wanna go to your calls.

And thank you. I'm looking at some of the topics on the board here. This is what I've been waiting for. These are the calls I've wanted to get in terms of people who have their criticisms and concerns. Thank you for calling in.

Much appreciated. And if I don't give you each. 10 minutes to talk or five minutes straight. It's only because if I did that, I'd get to two calls. But very quickly, I've been in meetings.

With so-called apostolic leaders. I say so-called because we'll debate whether they're apostles today. All right, we'll talk about that later. Not debate it, but talk about it. But I've been in these meetings, all right?

And When leaders talk about having influence in society, no one's talking about taking over. Rather, we're saying, why should the media be so secular and liberal? We should have a presence there. And if we have enough presence, we can turn it in the right direction. The schools, why are our universities that are so many founded by Christian leaders and denominations for Christian purposes?

Why are they so secular and liberal? We need to infiltrate the schools. We need more godly professors and administrators. And politics, why is it so wacky and corrupt? We need godly political leaders.

It's not a matter of taking over.

Now we're going to impose: if you don't follow, observe the Sabbath, you're stoned to death. No, no, no, no.

So it's completely. I've never once heard the stuff that these people are accused of, or that I'm accused of. I've never once heard it. And I'm in meetings with people.

Okay. So that's one thing. When it comes to apostles today, And again, I'll discuss this more later. Yes. I do believe that there are apostles, small A apostles today, just like in the New Testament.

In other words, people called apostles emissaries who are not of the 12. All right.

Of course, they do not have apostolic authority in terms of like Paul or Peter did. They don't write scripture, but they're emissaries in the same way that Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts. I would look at Hudson Taylor as a modern apostle, even though he wouldn't have seen himself like that. But A weakness of what I found in so-called new apostolic reformations. Everybody became an apostle.

This is not something you put on your business card. And I've repudiated that and spoken against that for years. All right, let's go to Joseph in Berkeley, California. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hey, Dr.

Brown, thank you so much for doing all this. This is, I really Tremendously appreciate and honor what you're doing. I receive from you a lot, and so thank you so much. I know that there's not a lot of time, so Right, and we'll continue after the break. Get your stuff out and then we'll continue.

Okay, cool. I didn't know that you had a saying on Bill Johnson. I'm sorry, I wish I had called during the time, but I'm glad you're doing this now.

So I'm in Berkeley. Pretty close to Reading, obviously, doing ministry in Berkeley for a while. I noticed that a lot of the A lot of my friends and a lot of people in Berkeley Um Would have come to a lot of problems in their life and in their understanding of God. And what I kept seeing was it would always come back somehow back to Bethel and some things that they were teaching. And so what I did was I just went on a kind of a journey of kind of figuring out, okay, what are they teaching?

Because people keep telling me about them, and I'm seeing these problems. And so, what I found through a lot of study of Bill Johnson and Chris Vallatin is That they're all very many troubling things. And me, I am a charismatic as well. And so, this is not like I'm like a cessationist bashing on charismatics. I am fully charismatic.

But what I saw was there were a lot of problems that I was seeing with their teaching. I should tell you what, stop here. We've got a break for two minutes. Take those, and I'm looking at the phone lines: Jam, Kay, and Chris, and Jim, and Ryan. I'm gonna get to every one of your calls.

So, if you can stay there, I will get to you. But get your thoughts in order. Give me your top three biggest concerns. All right? It's fire we want, oh fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I just tweeted this out.

My entire emphasis is on Jesus being glorified through our lives, not a cloud, but he can still appear in a cloud of glory if he chooses. We can discuss that later. All right, Joseph, so could you give me your top three concerns? And you may be right on every one of them, by the way. I'm not the purpose is not to argue.

Your top three concerns that you've seen coming out of Bethel or out of Bill or Chris's teaching?

Okay. I think number one would be Um though The way people understand the gospel, I guess. talk about these things fully in such a short amount of time. Um so we have a we had uh several obviously we have several friends in Bethel and and you know we even hooked up with Bethel teams that wanted to come to Berkeley campus, UC Berkeley to do evangelism. And so, you know, we hook up with them, you know, and and do evangelism with Bethel teams.

And it was very concerning because the way that they would preach the gospel would be um I mean, literally to tell people how awesome they are. I mean, I'm not even exaggerating. Got it. I understand. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So that's one thing. So let me say that to the extent that that's done. with just wanting people to know How highly God thinks of them, or something like that, without. Preaching a sin.

I mean, Bill Johnson was clear on the radio saying we have a sinful nature, we need to repent, we need to get rid of that, we need to turn from it. One of my friends just heard him the other day giving a strong holiness message on TV. Yet, I've definitely seen that happen with teams. I don't know if it's directly from Bill or Chris, but I've absolutely seen that kind of thing happening with teams going out, and it's a big mistake, it's not the gospel. And I agree with that concern.

If I get time together with either Bill or Chris, I'll certainly talk about it. But I agree with it. Valid concern.

Next. Yeah. And so the I guess the other one would be, I guess, maybe the root of a lot of things, which is Um they're they do I know that Bill has said that he does value Scripture, but I feel like in practice, it's not really there. And it almost I have also, you know, in my studies, I've seen that there's a consistent, not just like a one-time thing, but a consistent. A pattern of yes, saying that there's a value for the scripture, and yet it's always in the context of, but.

you know, experiencing something supernatural from God is you know Kind of more important and almost explicitly said. And I feel like that's kind of the root of a lot of things that is coming out. And so, what you have, and again, I think one of the previous callers, you were saying, you know, like you haven't really been with them or you don't know their culture, but I kind of have. Again, I'm really close. A lot of people, a lot of people from Berkeley go up to Reading constantly.

I know many people in Berkeley. I know many people that have gone through the Berkeley Supernatural School Ministry. And so I'm very involved in that regard. And what I have seen in that culture really is. Actually, a very low view of the scripture and a very high view of.

You know, thus saith the Lord, you know, healings and signs and wonders, again, which all things I love. And I go to the world. It's the emphasis, right? The word of God is our foundation, is our anchor. And these other things that happen are confirmation of the word.

Or, for example, the fact that we. That we have intimate relationship with God and fellowship with the Holy Spirit is in harmony with what the word teaches.

Now, again, when I was there, you know, I was just turned loose to preach. You know, I preached on Take Up Our Cross and the Call to Suffer. I preached on the fire of God's purity and holiness. I spoke against superficial manifestations and things in the school. I brought a message on the importance of Israel and was warmly welcomed and received in doing it.

Oh, I I'm The folks that I know that graduated from our school that spent time there never came away. With the concern you're sharing, but it could be valid. I mean, it's it again, I'm not in the midst of it. Enough to know, but if it's true, That's a serious concern. And look, I have a flip side concern for cessationists that downplay experience entirely.

I have a whole chapter in my book, Authentic Fire, on the God to be experienced, and I quote the Bible abundantly in it, but then I quote great Calvinist leaders of the past, Reform leaders of the past, talking about their intimacy with God and their experience with God.

So it's not either or, but to the extent that anything. experiential takes precedence over the word. Of course, that's an error and it's a pathway for deception. And there was one movement, I was not part of it directly, but when I would hear their leaders speak, there was a deprecating of scripture. Or one of my major issues with Todd Bentley's ministry was his calling angelic revelations and things like that and not using scripture.

The couple of times I heard him that gravely concerned me. Again, when I've heard Bill, He's been teaching the word, but I've read stuff. It's always starting with scripture and going from there. But if the pendulum is swung because of the outpouring they're experiencing, that is a danger, and that should be addressed. Give me one more.

If you have one more, because these are pretty major ones that I concur with you. Yeah. I think the with Bill, kind of his main ministry is kind of based off of signs and wonders. He wants to teach a generation to walk in signs and wonders. And one thing that I think kind of all together with these things is that.

Kind of the basis of his theology and his doctrine of signs and wonders, I believe, you know, I have seen, you know, is. false in that he said that One thing that one of his catchphrases is always that God cannot give what he does not have. Right, so God can't give disease. And so that's kind of one of the bases base fundamental doctrines that he has is God cannot give what he does not have. And it also said in the positive, which is God can only give what he does have.

And so he makes that argument in saying that no disease can come from God, period. Like God literally cannot do it. And I take huge problem with that only because I feel like that's part of also the hypergrace tendency that they may have. Um But Yeah, yeah, that's an and let me just jump in only out of respect for other callers. All right.

But yeah, let me just say this. Um again, it you're quoting him and saying that And let's say it's an accurate quote, okay? Uh, yeah, of course, it's an overstatement, and of course, God does smite in the Bible, He does smite with sickness and disease, and in the book of Revelation, when the wrath of God is poured out, it includes sickness and disease. On the flip side, I fully affirm the point he's making, which is. That the nature of God is not to make us sick but to heal us.

That when Jesus touched people, he didn't make them sick, he healed them. That God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil. I challenge anyone to go through my 465-page book, Israel's Divine Healer, with 165,000 words of annotation, and find fault with that fundamental theology that God's desire for His obedient children is healing, and that in the Bible, sickness is either associated, aside from just in the fall, if it's got a specific cause, it's either sin. or a divine curse.

a judgment, a chastisement, or Satan and demons. That it's never a loving gift from God.

So I affirm the point. Points he's making as far as the nature of God, but the way he's saying it obviously could lead to error. Hey, listen, Joseph, I'd love to talk to you more. I want to be fair to other callers, but these are all valid issues that I want people to know what I believe, where I stand. And let's put these on the table for further prayerful discussion and to the extent that I can follow up with concerns as I'm with people or see, okay, are these concerns valid from the inside?

Because let me just say this. You can't Blame A large movement. for everything people do associate it with it. But if you see a large percentage of people associated with the movement doing it, then you can't blame the movement.

So, in other words, I've got lots of listeners by God's grace. And maybe some listeners do crazy things. And they say, oh yeah, listen to Mike Brown. Or I go to Dr. Brown's website.

Okay, well, you can't blame me for that.

However, if this was a tendency that you saw on a large level, from people who graduated from my school. or who listen to my show or on the website, then by all means, I'm responsible.

So uh I don't downplay a word you've said. I think these are valid questions and issues, and these are the exact kind of calls I was waiting for. Thank you, sir, for weighing in. Much appreciated. All right.

All right, 866-34Truth. Let's go to Ryan in Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown, how you doing?

Doing well. Thank you. Uh, I got a question. It's kind of concerning the um the commissioning service of Todd Bentley, this happened a number of years ago, obviously. But Phil Johnson was there, Rick Joyner, the Arnaut, Shion, a lot of leaders in the, you know, whether they identify with it or not, there's leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation.

They all got up there and gave prophecies, words from God, about How great Todd was, how great this ministry was going to be, and it was going to explode and take off. we know that was all false. It didn't happen. It was exposed a couple of months later. that he was getting drunk, he was having multiple affairs, he ran away from his wife and his kids.

I'm not here to judge him on his sins, but I'm a sinner as well. But What is that just blatant false prophecy? Did God really give them that word? Or were they lying when they got up there? Oh, they were wrong.

Absolutely wrong. I was embarrassed by it, Ryan. And I'm going to continue commenting on the other side of the break. I'm on record. It's in my authentic fire book as saying that that was divine chastisement and judgment.

on the charismatic movement of America. for so many senior leaders to be involved with something that was blatantly that false. I was embarrassed. My wife Nancy insisted I sit down and watch the whole thing. I couldn't watch it.

I was so embarrassed until she said, please, you've got to watch the whole thing.

So let me comment more on that when we come back. The world O God of burning, cleansing flame. Say And the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. We're talking about so-called New Apostolic Reformation. We're talking about Pastor Bill Johnson Bethel.

We're talking about charismatic issues and trying to talk through concerns and questions. People have Dr. Peter Wagner, probably the founder of what critics or friends call the New Apostolic Reformation, recently went to be with the Lord, and probably some of his severe critics say he's not with the Lord at all. And some of his greatest friends say he's the greatest man of God they've known.

So we're talking to be constructive here. 866-34-TRUTH.

So back to Ryan in Nashville. Ryan, I don't know details of everything that happened in Todd's life during what was called the Lakeland outpouring, but certainly it has been revealed that he was getting drunk. It appears that he was in adultery towards the end of it, certainly soon after. And of course, he did divorce his wife and is married to someone else. Rick Joyner is a friend of mine, and Rick worked with Todd's restoration.

Believes God is using Todd and raised her back up. I'm on public. Record as differing with Rick on that. We've sat face to face and talked about it, and he knows my public stance that I don't believe Todd was rightly restored and that the right path was to step away from the relationship he was in and to seek reconciliation with his wife and children. I wish him well.

I hope for mercy, but that's just my own stance. But, Ryan, during the Lakeland outpouring, I was never there. And um I heard reports of the Holy Spirit moving wonderfully in worship and people really being touched. And then I had grave concerns because of the lack of preaching of the word. and the central focus on one person and some abusive practices.

So when that meeting happened, And most of the people on that platform were people that I know, and some were good friends. When I heard that they were there, To kind of lay hands on Todd, and I've sarcastically called it the coronation service. And basically, set him apart as the main leader. And one of my friends said that the Todd must increase and he must decrease. I honestly felt like I was watching people I loved.

running around public in their underwear. I was so embarrassed I couldn't watch. And I I How it happened, how people were so wrong on something that was so obviously off. Um I can't answer that. I can only say that to me, I felt like God was bringing public chastisement.

To the charismatic movement of which I'm a part for lack of discernment and gullibility. That's how I personally felt. My question was further be. Not as much of the discernment part, but if they were claiming to be prophets and apostles speaking from God. And that was in fact a false prophecy.

Why should we not believe that they are indeed false prophets today? Ah, okay. Their word why would their word why should we believe something Bill Johnson says today if he got on cable T V and falsely prophesied for the whole world to see? Yeah, that's a valid Ryan, that's a valid concern.

So yeah, yeah, but I'm glad we got to address the other things too, because I want to be on record plainly and clearly for those that don't know where I stand. But in short, Ryan, As I understand Scripture, a false prophet is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A false teacher is a heretic leading others to hell. A false prophet is not someone who loves the Lord and prophesies falsely. Remember, we're not under the Old Testament where people were dependent on the prophet to lead the nation, and a wrong word would get you stoned.

Okay?

So I would say that if someone prophesies falsely today, they are corrected for it. They can be a believer who loves the Lord, but they make a mistake. They speak in the flesh. They confuse the voice of the Spirit for their own thoughts. And they.

They speak falsely. I will not brand them a false prophet or false teacher based on. New Testament terminology, you know, that these people are wolves in sheep's clothing and are servants of Satan. I will say this. if I said something publicly All right, that I got up on radio and said, God has shown me that Ted Cruz is actually going to be our next president, that it's not going to be Hillary or Donald Trump.

And it didn't happen. That would not make me a false prophet. That would mean I prophesied falsely. But you better believe. that I would need to publicly apologize.

That I would need accountability to speak into my life, to help me to see where I made the error. And then, if I ever did claim to speak prophetically again, I would expect people to be very skeptical. That would be the natural fruit of it. If we're in a prayer meeting together and you say, Hey, Dr. Brown, I really sense the Lord is saying this.

And I said, You know, Ryan, I don't sense that at all. Right, let's keep praying. I'm not going to brand you a false prophet if you're wrong. Or say, man, you're in error. And there's a way to submit things, which is in humility and saying, hey, I feel this could be the Lord.

What do you say? Let's pray about it. But if I'm going to, on a public platform or here in an international platform, get up and make a public prophetic pronunciation that is false, by all means, I need to be held accountable for it without question.

So all right. Thank you, sir, for the call. Very important and much appreciated. 866-34TRUTH. All right, let's go over to Kay in Stafford, Virginia.

Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. I enjoy your show. It makes me think.

My question sounds kind of simple after listening to some of these other questions that have come in. But I'll just preface it by saying that I believe that the gifts are for today and that I want all that God has for me according to the scripture. But I guess in the circles that I travel in and fellowship in with my friends and stuff, I see kind of two camps. I see I have a lot of friends that are Pentecostal that You know, believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. And, you know, where Jesus disciples, someone's preaching, and he's like, You, you know, should we stop them?

And Jesus said, you know, if they're not, against me, they're for me, that kind of camp. And then the other camp, I think, where there's fear of things not done decently and in order. And so I guess that's where my confusion and my question comes in. I'm wondering if you can tell me the difference between a prayer language And actually in the uh book of Acts where People were praying in tongues, and it was another language that the people heard their own language and understood. And then a follow-up question to that is: when?

you're in a meeting and if there is a tongue that comes forth, And there has to be an interpreter. Is that the prayer language, or is that actually the gift of tongues? Yeah. I don't see any distinction between gift of tongues and so-called prayer language. The New Testament doesn't use the terminology prayer language, but just speaks of praying in a tongue.

And it's a tongue that no human being can understand. That's why you have to have the gift of interpretation as opposed to someone from that country. The only time it mentions only in Acts 2, right? Acts 2 is the one and only time it records that. It doesn't say that there was an understandable language in Acts 10.

It doesn't say that there's an understandable language in Acts 19. And the only extensive teaching we have on it is 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul's talking about don't forbid speaking in tongues. Everyone should seek prophecy. Don't forbid speaking in tongues. And if you speak in tongues, if you deliver a public message, Right?

So here you are, you're doing a public, you deliver a public message in a service. I get up during a quiet time in worship and I speak a 30-second message in tongues. and I don't have an interpretation no one else does, then I should be silent. And that's what's explicit because the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. But, Kate, listen, I am unfortunately.

Out of time. When I was filled with the Spirit began to speak in tongues January 24th, 1972, no one understood the language I was speaking, nor did I. And that continues to be the case as I worship God and pray in private to the great edification of my own life and to the blessing of others. Thank you. For the call, we're going to keep this conversation going another hour.

My bottom line today, I want everything God's Word says that I should have to glorify Jesus and touch a dying world. The NAR, the new apostolic reformation. What is it? Is it of God, the flesh, the devil? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. All right, I've got a little... question for you, a little puzzle for you. All right, this is Michael Brown. The phone lines are open, 866-348-7884.

We had a great hour, the first hour. I've asked people to call in if they have questions about so-called new apostolic reformation. As Dr. Peter Wagner went to be with the Lord just a few days ago, you could say he's the founder of that movement. Folks still wanted to call in and talk about Bill Johnson and Bethel and Reading, California, and not satisfied with my interview with Pastor Johnson.

Hey, phone lines. are open once again. And the goal is not to talk about doctrine so much. Like, I'm not sure what the word says on this, as much as practices and things that, of course, will go back to doctrine.

So the number to call with your question, feel free to differ with me. Feel free to say, hey, Mike, I think you're wrong on this. Dr. Brown, I think you're in error on this. Fine.

No problem. I welcome, I welcome your conversation. calls. 866-34TRUTH. But let's let's go through a little Sequence here.

And I want you to tell me how you are going to work this out.

Someone gets up and they begin preaching. And they begin saying, you know, as I was studying the word, the Lord began to show me that I was wrong about the resurrection of Jesus. And Jesus didn't rise physically. Actually, that's a wrong theory. He rose spiritually, but he didn't bodily rise.

And those believing the bodily resurrection, they're in error.

So, what would you do? You'd immediately say, well, that's heretical. How would you know that?

Well, that's what my church always taught. No, no, you've got to do better than that.

Well, I mean the creeds. Uh gotta do even better than that.

Well the word. The word plainly speaks of the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Okay. Great. Uh perfect. I agree.

So, in other words, we would sort that out. Uh with scripture. And we would say, okay, this is what the Bible says, and it's confirmed by the most fundamental. Earliest Cretes.

Okay, agreed. That's how we sort it out, right?

Someone says, man, I was praying yesterday. I've had this back issue for months. Doctors want back surgery, but it's really iffy. I was praying and said, God, I believe you're the healer. I believe you're the same yesterday, today, and forever.

You've healed in the past. Lord, healed. He said, Suddenly, you say, I suddenly felt this heat all over my back. It was like 10 heating pads all enveloping my back, and next thing the pain's left, and I'm completely healed. I went back to the doctor, and the doctor said, It's a miracle.

So how would you evaluate that? How would you evaluate that?

Well you would say okay Is there Scripture that says that God could still heal today? Of course, not just could but that we should expect it. I'd say that abundantly, clearly. And that's how we would judge the experience. that that the Bible speaks of God being the healer.

And that it produced good fruit of healing in that person's life. And it was an answer to prayer. If we ask God for bread, He won't give us a stone. That's what Jesus says in Matthew 7, Luke 11. Therefore I have every reason to say Well, that sounds like the Lord to me.

If someone says, Well, I have to be the Lord, well, why couldn't it be the Lord? Why couldn't it be the Lord?

So we agree that ultimately... Ultimately, we discern first and foremost based on scripture. And then if Scripture what if Scripture doesn't directly address something? I was I was praying in my room and suddenly it was like a cloud filled the room. I don't know what to expect, and suddenly the fear of God fell on me.

The fear of God came upon me. And I began to repent deeply of sin in my life. And I went to my family and I confessed to them. And I love Jesus, and my life is pure.

Well, how do you judge it?

Well, the Bible doesn't say that a cloud couldn't appear. We know in the Old Testament God appeared the cloud. And because it brought the fear of the Lord and repentance and holiness and a life devoted to Jesus, you'd say, well, since it produced scriptural fruit, Sounds like the Lord. Is that how we'd work things out? Is that how we would evaluate?

866-34THRUTH, go into your calls as soon as we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. All right, welcome back to the line of fire.

Okay, so screening calls. Ah, okay, got it, got it.

So, Betsy, you're just taking over for Howard. No, I already complimented him earlier. All right, now I get to compliment you. All right.

We're all clear.

So if you call now, Betsy will be screening your calls. 866-348-7884. I'm going to go to your phone calls in a moment. Thanks.

Some of you have been holding for almost an hour. I want to get to everybody I can. Oh, I'm looking at an article blasting me. From 2014, January. Dr.

Michael Brown says: Friends, Mike Bickel and Lou Engel, true man of God. Yeah. Absolutely. True Blue, I know them well. I spent many hours with them.

I spent a lot of time in prayer with them, seeking God together. Cry out. True man of God. I absolutely. Do I agree with everything they teach and preach?

I don't know everything they teach and preach. Who has time to listen to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of everybody's teaching and preaching? But all the time we spent together, the things we've made drawn, the things we believe together. Absolutely. Yeah, but I get blasted for that.

I'm looking at a series of articles here on shocking beliefs, shocking, shocking beliefs. Morton Luther! What? John Calvin. Hmm?

C. S. Lewis. What? What's my point?

Yeah, Frank Viola put these out, not to deny these men were Christians, but to say, you know, what's interesting, what's interesting. When these come out, I think mainly in 2015, 2016, That Frank's point was to say, you know, we nail leaders to the wall today for things much more minor. Then some of what these leaders believed.

Now, does Frank believe we should be doctrinally accurate? Yes. Is he a scripture man? Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. He's talking about our attitude, and that's just one thing I want to say.

That if you damn Martin Luther to hell because of the things he taught and believed about the Jews, things he said about the peasants, other stuff, it's completely outrageous. Stuff that literally led to bloodshed. literally led to bloodshed. and directly connects to the Holocaust. All right, this is not hyperbole.

I mean, these are just simple facts. If you said, well then he couldn't have been a Christian. And that's why I also condemn this leader and this leader and this leader today.

Okay, you're being consistent. But when you are going to defend Martin Luther. whose transgressions Massively, massively. Outnumber. the the failings of some modern charismatic leaders.

And you're going to damn the ladder to hell. as false prophets and heretics and false teachers. and defend Martin Luther. I have an issue with that. That to me is unequal weights and measures, and that's something Scripture is plainly against.

You say to me, Well, why don't I damn the character? It's so fun. I have an issue with Luther, and I'm not damning into hell. I hope to see him in the world to come. But obviously, I want to find out what in the world happened, man.

The horrific damage that you did, what in the world happened? And the things you said, wrote, claimed, yikes. But having said all that I have an issue. with condemning a brother or sister to hell based on a non-central doctrine or practice that I differ with. And that's what I'm going to respond to.

And what when I see Websites that post falsehoods, I mean, blatant falsehoods. Or make ridiculous statements. You know, I was on a TV show once. You know, questionable whether I should have been on the Christian TV show or not, you know, debate it. But someone said, yeah, they really pushed his book, and he's going to sell.

tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of copies or whatever the number was. What Are you serious? Like six weeks after the broadcast, that ministry asked if they could purchase four hundred books from our ministry. And when we couldn't sell them at a steep enough discount, we said, Hey, just go to the publisher. It's the best way to do it.

It's our best way to make it make a dime from it. And if any if I ended up with a personal royalty, maybe it's like $200. Oh, it'll be tens of thousands of books and dollars. When I see that kind of nonsense, And things that I know because I'm an eyewitness to it being blatantly false. And then when some on top of it hide behind anonymity, I don't have any respect for that.

And you better believe I'm going to stand with a brother or sister who I know loves the Lord but may have some error that needs to be corrected. I'm going to stand before them. You're going to stand with a critic who's posting blatant falsehoods. and not repenting of them and not asking for forgiveness and not making things right. Just being clear, 866-34TRUTH.

Let's go to Jim in DC. Thanks so much for holding, sir. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, sir. Um, good to talk to you.

Um, I just had a question, uh, just I just your opinion. I have a close uh family member who's church and she believes in signs and wonders, but she's a oneness Pentecostal. Does she reject the Trinity? Um, I'm just wondering is that It kind of baffles me because I don't understand Is either God doesn't care about that or is demonic. Or, um or the flesh.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, or the flex. Absolutely. Yeah, you should have. I want to get your opinion on that.

Yeah. So. Oneness, Pentecostal churches, they normally wouldn't identify as charismatic. They would strictly identify as Pentecostal. In my experience, sometimes there's just a fine line between the two.

But yet, they are ones who preach that Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. They say that we're to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Spirit, not the names of. And they say, What is the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit?

Well, Acts 2:38, be baptized in the name of Jesus.

So that Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. That in Isaiah 9:6, one of the titles for the Son of God born in this world is Everlasting Father. Therefore, Jesus is the Father. And that they teach modalism. That is that these are different manifestations of the one God, so that I am at one and the same time a son, a father, a grandfather, a husband, a radio host, an author, depends on which hat I'm wearing.

So, the same with the alleged Trinity. That's what they believe. And oneness Pentecostals normally believe if you're the extreme ones, if you're not baptized by one of their bishops in the name of Jesus, you're not even saved. That would be the extreme form. And that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved.

Yeah, that's the one, the extreme one. That's the one she goes through. I just, I, it's kind of.

well, I went to her church and it kind of frightened me a little. And I was wondering what they're being filled with. Yeah, all right.

So, so there are there are three options only, and I would be deeply concerned as well.

Now, let me say this. A large Number of apologists and Christian teachers say that this group is completely apostate. That because they deny God's triune nature, they are heretics. And Dr. James White makes an excellent point in terms of pressing who they even believe Jesus is and do they really have the Son.

And it's a point that he's raised. I can't articulate it off the top of my head the way he has, but he's raised questions: do they really have the sun? Because I've said. 1 John 2: If you have the Son, you have the Father also. Could it be that even in the midst of their extreme error?

that they still have rightly believed in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, And God the Son. and therefore could be saved.

So I I believe some could be saved. But there's grave concern because it's serious error. And I understand why some say it's apostasy and heresy, period. I fully understand that. I've just dealt with some over the years that seem to be genuine believers and are not in the full extreme side.

So, could it be if they have the son, they have the father also? But putting that aside, let's think worst-case scenario. Worst case scenario, if they're not saved at all, right? then it's either demonic stuff happening. And anybody, look, there's counterfeit tongues.

Just like the account of it miracles in the Old Testament. For Satan to counterfeit tongues or for human emotion to counterfeit tongues, that's easily enough done, right? It's not like they're counterfeiting raising Jesus from the dead or something, you know, or counterfeiting creation. These are things that, you know, could there be counterfeit signs, wonders, and miracles? It happens.

Could a lot of stuff be fleshly? It happens. So is it possible that there are sincere believers in the midst of this deceptive, erroneous doctrine? Genuinely receiving the Spirit, genuinely being saved, it's possible, although some of my colleagues would say could never happen. But let's just say it may be possible.

That God is still working in the midst of this because of the exaltation of Jesus. And not denying him as Lord or God, or not denying him as the only Savior, not denying the power of his blood, etc., not denying the authority of Scripture. But obviously, treading on very dangerous ground, either outright heresy. and they're lost and damned or very close to it.

So it's possible the Holy Spirit's working in some of them, otherwise it's the flesh or demonic counterfeit. And one of the manifestations is the severe, faulty doctrine and the judging of the rest of the body. Pray that the Holy Spirit really reveal things to her because often these churches are very legalistic. And put a lot of pressure on people out working for them. Think if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved.

That's not going to put you under pressure to manufacture something. Absolutely, yeah.

So, the same way with a lot of standards to set, some Christian leaders have pointed out that legalists are either self-righteous or self-condemned because either you're deceived about yourself and you think you're the only one doing it, or you realize you're falling short. Pray that God would expose that legalism, bring her to a point of spiritual bankruptcy, so that she really does turn to the truth of the gospel. Hey, Jim, thank you for calling. And, Lord, touch her. Touch or touch others in those church.

and bring them into the center of your word and truth in Jesus' name. God changed the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire 866-34-TRUTH. My joy to be with you. Seeking to separate truth from error, seeking to understand how to discern what the Lord is doing and isn't doing. I want to give you some principles for that as well.

I want to give you principles of discernment based on the writings of Jonathan Edwards and based on my own reflection in the word and revival and experience as well. First, we go back to the phones: 866-34Truth, Chris and Grand Forks, North Dakota. Thanks so much for holding. Welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for taking my call.

I got a question. I mean, the topic today is what is the new Apostolic Reformation? I still don't think I'm getting a clear answer as to what that is. But having read C. Peter Wagner's book on Apostles Today, It's very clear that he believes that since the year two thousand one, that the uh charismatic uh prophets had predicted and have confirmed that we've entered the second apostolic age.

and that God has restored apostles On the earth. And there's all kinds of different apostles. And apparently, this is supposedly.

so that uh the church can receive marching orders In order to fulfill its mandate, he likens them to the generals who've been missing from the army of Christ since the death of the apostles. He does this in his book. And by the way, you just provided more clarity for our listeners in one minute than I have in the first 80 minutes because I've been taking calls and dealing with other issues. But so, thank you. Perfect.

This is exactly. uh what I want to talk about. But go ahead, continue, please.

So so my question is Um I'm a pastor of a small Lutheran church. in Oslo, Minnesota. And I've been told by Charismatics in my area that I need to submit myself and submit my congregation under the umbrella, the apostolic umbrella, of a female apostle. who is um not too far from me. Is there any reason to believe that what they actually would have me do?

No, no, no. Yeah. Just in case anyone's unclear on where I stand. All right, Chris, let me interact briefly. With what you described in the teaching of Peter Wagner.

Okay, where I disagree and where I agree. And then let's get back to your specific situation. All right.

Yeah. One of the calls I was waiting for wanted to be able to respond to, so perfect, thank you.

Okay. Um I have no question based on scripture definition. That there were the twelve apostles, and there are others called apostles. Remember, it was not a. A spooky, unusual term, it's an emissary, it's a sent one.

In Hebrew, Shaliach is just an emissary, a messenger, someone sent on a mission.

Okay, so there's nothing, the term has become the apostles. And I know we've got the 12 apostles on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 22. But, you know, I'm looking at Acts 14:14, the apostles. Barnabas and Paul tore their robes. There are others called apostles in the New Testament outside of the 12.

So. Are there apostles today? Is that how I understand Ephesians 4 that God has appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, the way I understand 1 Corinthians 12? Yeah, I believe that there are people who have that pioneering... A foundation laying uh divinely backed apostolic ministry today One of my best examples is my friend in India, Yesu Padam.

Who was an untouchable, a communist, alcoholic, atheist, a violent man? Jesus appeared to him and saved him in his mid-20s. And he's been stoned for his faith. He has planted probably over 8,000 churches and tribal areas, just completely revamped a whole area as far as the gospel getting where it's never gone. He's now pioneering works in several different nations.

He's the ultimate servant you'll ever meet. The power of God is on his life. I look at him as a modern-day apostle. He never uses the title, wouldn't even think of it. Um but uh all that to say I believe, like someone like Hudson Taylor or William Booth, I believe these were apostolic men.

They were pioneers. They were planting new things. They were foundation layers and builders. They had a certain divine authority, even if they wouldn't have seen themselves like that.

So some of it to me is semantics, okay? But if someone can recognize that their calling is not just a traditional pastor, traditional teacher. or traditional evangelist, that they are supposed to Plant new things and pioneer new things, and maybe reintroduce things in scripture that people have lost sight of, and maybe have a certain regional authority. You know, like Timothy, we call him a bishop, but he was the leader over the congregations in Ephesus. I do believe God raises people up like that.

And I think recognizing that and understanding that. is important. Would I put that on my name card? No. And I've worked with others that used to be called the Coalition of Apostles, but they didn't like the way that sounded.

They've changed it to a coalition of apostolic leaders. And I'm more at home. with that terminology because it's it's it's Easier to understand. All right, so I agree with that. I disagree.

That There are all these people now all over the place, you know, apostles in the workplace and apostles here, that everybody becomes an apostle. That Chris, if you, you know, it's been a standard in-house charismatic joke of ours for years. Once you start your second church, you're an apostle, you know? Or just change your name from pastor to apostle because you sent someone out to do a soup kitchen mission, so now you're a real apostle. The term gets so overused and so abused.

I've had an issue with it for many, many years. And yet I recognize men that God's raised up. on national levels in different countries. They're doing extraordinary work, and they have that kind of apostolic anointing, meaning they are backed to go on this mission and to establish new things. And sometimes they're speaking to government leaders, and sometimes they're in the business world.

They can be in all different settings, but they're doing this extraordinary ministry work. All that I believe is helpful. Can I pinpoint the time when some of this understanding happened? Peter Wagner says he could. I don't know.

I've never looked at it like that. I'm not one to see times and trends in that way.

So if it happened, I'm not aware of it, but I'm not discounting it. What I am saying is wrong. is that people associate being apostolic with With accumulating churches and ministries under your domain or command. I call it apostle by acquisition. By naming everybody and their brother Apostle, by putting that now on your name card as part of your title.

I don't agree with doing that, and I think it's unhelpful. Do I believe there are truly apostolic people alive today? Absolutely, and I've the privilege and joy of working with them. Do I believe I'm an apostle? No, just to clarify that.

Do I believe that anyone telling you that you need to come under their authority is out of order? Yes. You're part of a Lutheran church. You have denominational structure. That's your accountability structure.

If you met with a group of leaders together in your city, and there was someone recognized as a city father, That everyone, hey, we honor you. Wonderful. Let that be. But no one comes to you and tells you that you need to be submitted to this one or that one. That's out of order, and that is a serious abuse, in my view.

So, does that help you? Yeah, that helps if I could ask a follow-up question.

Well, tell you what, if you don't mind. Stay right there. We're about to start a brand oh no. I'm sorry. I I accidentally Drop Chris, drop my caller instead of put him on hold.

I hope you call- Oh, you're there, you're there. You know what? I dropped somebody else. Uh-oh. I do.

Stay there. I want you to ask your new question at the beginning of the next half hour. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thank you so much for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. Are there apostles, prophets today?

Is that just what Mormons believe? or some flaky charismatics, or is that clearly taught in the New Testament? What about the Holy Spirit moving today? Is he doing a new thing, a different thing? Does he appear in clouds and glory and Does he raise the dead and heal the sick today and give prophetic words?

Is that scriptural? Can we know whether it's scriptural or not? Is there enough evidence in the Bible to address it as scriptural or not? How do we discern these things? That's what I want to talk about with you today on the broadcast, 866-34878.

Eight, eight, five. And okay, let's, yeah, let's see. I was thinking, all right, I see my confusion. I have two Chris's on the air. Chris in Rockport, Missouri, thank you for calling back.

You were holding, and I accidentally dropped your call. I'm glad you're able to get back in. Thank you. All right.

I want to reconnect with Chris in Grand Forts, North Dakota, and everybody just joining me, all of our great friends in the DFW area. We are starting a brand new half hour. Please give me a call if you have questions, concerns, issues, the so-called new apostolic reformation. What is it? Is it of God or man or the devil?

Please. Give me Call. I'd love to hear from you. 866-348-7884. So, Chris in North Dakota.

Your question, please. My follow-up question, you had Okay. Yeah. quite funny that you had said that uh Todd Bentley's service was a coronation service. But as you were aware, C.

Peter Wagner was the one presiding over Todd Bentley's coronation service. And We're referring to a service a few years ago in Lakeland, Florida, during what was called the Lakeland Outpouring, where a number of well-known, respected charismatic leaders from America and Canada We were there to lay hands on Todd.

Now, I don't know that every one of them was there for the same reason. One of them specifically told me he was shocked with what happened. That night, but under the leadership of C. Peter Wagner, they laid hands on Todd Bentley. And basically, well, again, the way my wife and I dubbed it, a coronation service, it was terribly embarrassing for me to watch some of my friends up there participating in it.

Not long after that, the whole thing collapsed, and Todd was found to be in sin, subsequently divorced his wife and married someone else. And yes, C. Peter Wagner was the leader in that, and I was embarrassed for him. He's with the Lord now, but I felt it was completely what was being done was completely. Off base.

I mean, a ring put on the finger. I was ashamed. As a charismatic Pentecostal, I was ashamed.

Okay. And so if you're familiar with the service, you've seen it. That Bill Johnson and Shea On were both there, and C. Peter Wagner introduced both of them as. kind of the notable apostles present for Todd Bentley's coronation.

And my question is, given C. Peter Wagner's theology that is so clearly taught in his books. In what sense did he believe that Bill Johnson and Cheyenne were apostles? And should I believe that they truly have an apostolic anointing based upon their participation and the false prophecies that they gave regarding Todd Bentley? Yep.

All right.

Thank you. Excellent question. Let me say one thing first, and I'm going to answer the rest on the other side of the break. I one hundred per cent Understand. Why people who watch that service, and that's what you know of Bill Johnson, Cheon, Peter Wagner, I fully understand.

why you think charismatics are flaky. I fully understand why you say these men could not be true apostles or prophets. I fully understand that, and I am absolutely sympathetic to your concerns. I just want to say that plainly. Hey friends, this is Michael Brown.

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Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, and click on donate. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Wow. Thanks again for joining us on the line of fire, 866-34TRU. Thank you, all of our torchbearers, all of our monthly supporters.

Join our team. We are on the air with your help. We are on the air with your support. If you appreciate this broadcast, if it's meaningful to you to have our voice on the air, stand with us, go to thelineoffire.org, click donate, and become a monthly supporter. All right, so just to To finish up the question, Chris, why would Peter Wagner think that Bill Johnson or Cheon were, quote, apostles?

Again, define the way we're defining them. We're not talking about the 12 apostles. We're not talking about someone having authority to write scripture. We're not talking about any such thing. They are servant leaders, just like pastors and evangelists are the same way.

But I would say it's fairly obvious that both of them Have birthed and help oversee worldwide movements. In other words, that being apostolic would be spiritual fathers who are reproducing. That would be one characteristic of apostolicity, as we would say, which is reproducing leaders, ministers, raising up, sending out, and not just leading one specific work, but something that becomes a movement as well. I think that would qualify in Peter Wagner's views. And Che has certainly done that, not just as a church planter, but overseeing a network of hundreds of churches worldwide.

And what's happened in Bethel has now multiplied, whether you like it or not, has multiplied in hundreds, thousands of churches, Bible schools, ministries around the world as well.

So, in that sense, they are having a multi-church, multi-regional, multinational impact with their ministry, and I think that would be part of what he would characterize as apostles.

Okay, it just based on his theology and his book, I just wonder if. If that's the way in which he meant it. I'm not sure how else he would have. Again, I've... I've not read a lot of Peter Wagner over the years.

He writes a lot and I haven't read a lot of, you know, I've been in meetings with him. We knew each other.

Sometimes we'd, I think we spoke on the phone one time, one or two times. And otherwise we were we served on a board. with Lou Engel for the call events. And the thing that struck me when I was with him. was his high level of integrity.

I remember, and now here, figure this out, Chris.

Okay, he's with the Lord now, so I just want to be as transparent as I can. Um but We were at a meeting. And we had about 30,000 people at a stadium. In in um in California. And afterwards, we were evaluating things in future meetings, and someone said, Yeah, there were some prophetic words that the stadium would be packed.

And Peter Wagner said, Who said it? We need to hold them accountable immediately. He was all over accountability, and all over integrity, and all over ministerial accountability, and holiness of life, and the authority of scripture, and all of that. And yet there were aspects of his theology that I felt led to abuses, you know, in terms of everybody and their uncle becoming an apostle and then the misuse of that, that, okay, I'm going to appoint you, Chris, as the apostle over Grand Forks, and now everybody has to listen to you. I decline.

I decline. Yeah, yeah.

Well, okay, good, good.

So good, you decline, and I can't do it anyway. But beyond that, I can't say. In my definition of apostolic leaders today. Would someone like Che be an apostolic leader? Sure.

No, it's that would fit. You know, multiplying church planter, father of other leaders, worldwide impact, etc. Does that make it all the more grievous to me? That he said what he said over Todd Bentley that night. Yes, absolutely.

And Chey and I don't see each other a lot, but we were good friends and worked together fairly closely in the past. And I know he's all for accountability as well. I just never talked to him about the whole thing with Todd. And so much water under the bridge, and so many other things happening in life and ministry. It's just something I haven't done.

But certainly, if we were working together, that would have been, I would immediately have called him and said, hey, buddy, what in the world's going on? I saw what happened last night. That's crazy. Even before stuff was revealed about Todd. Hey, Chris, thanks for the dialogue and the phone calls, and be faithful where the Lord's called you and just smile at the others that are telling you you need to submit to this woman and go on doing the work of the Lord.

All right, 866-34Truth. Chris in Rockport, Missouri. I'm so glad you got back through. I apologize for accidentally cutting you off. That's not a problem.

You're not the first one to hang up on me, so no big deal. Yes. Okay, so here's my question. I I saw you were on Twitter. You were asking about the Glory Cloud, which I I I didn't get to hear the whole show, so I I can't imagine somebody can actually make an argument from scripture against that.

But my question would be about some of the other stuff, the angel feathers, the um People's teeth. Teeth turning gold like fillings and jewels appearing, and people finding manna in their Bible, and all of that kind of that same line of thought there. I just like your opinion on it. and maybe hear what you have to say about it. Yeah, a lot of it seems really strange to me, and some of it here and there has been exposed.

I mean, I know a church in Tulsa some years ago where there were feathers. uh falling through the air And it was a complete sham. I mean, it was as sham as shams can be. The lady was up there ministering. I think it was the lady, or maybe she may have been the one with the props.

But literally, while she get people closing their eyes and praying, that one of the guys would go upstairs and start throwing feathers. Yeah, so I mean, there's crazy stuff like that that's happened. I also know of people. Godly, saintly, Holy Living Word Oriented, word-grounded people, solid saints. If you knew them, you'd say, Wow, that's a man of God, that's a woman of God.

And while they've been praying, They've suddenly felt the presence of God in their room. and looked at their hands and their hands are covered with oil. I know other people. That I was in a meeting in Mexico. I can't tell you whether it was God.

or or somebody behind the scenes was doing something. But there is this woman who's had this gold dust manifestation. And as she's speaking, it's like just kind of pouring out from like behind her head. You think, okay, is this some kind of prop or something? I'm watching, like, what's going on?

He said we should be able to discern. What she was preaching was true. What she was preaching was fine. And the church is an evangelistic, holiness, word-based church that I had preached in, a megachurch in Mexico, several times. It was weird to me.

Okay. I'm trying to, I'm asking the Lord what's going on. I don't want to reject something that's you, but this seems weird to me. What's the purpose? I'm going through that.

I can be as skeptical as anybody. I then went in a back room where you could sit and have some water or refreshments. And the whole room was basically all the carpet, all the walls. almost covered with this gold stuff. She had gone in there and prayed for their staff during a break, laid hands on them, and they said, Yeah, the gold was just flying everywhere.

Now, all I know is they had just left the room like that. In other words, they didn't know I was coming in afterwards. This was no show for the public. And it was and the woman said That she doesn't look for this. She finds it personally a little embarrassing.

You know, she wants her ministry to center on scripture, et cetera, et cetera. But um I So I'm not saying that can't happen. I myself one time saw a cloud fill a room where I was teaching in New York City. Just about 10, 15. or I think under 20 Koreans, I was teaching them Hebrew, Bible, and Old Testament.

And I thought it was a faulty Faulty line in the heating system, and it was like a steam heating system in the room filled with steam during the winter. But there was no such thing. It wasn't the heating system. I was the only one who saw it. And when it finally dissipated, I asked everybody about it.

They looked at me like I was crazy. And when I prayed about it, the Lord said to me, That's just a sign of my presence this semester. And we had an outpouring. It was great repentance and people saved that came in during chapel and stuff.

So I'm not one to say these things can't happen. I see nothing in Scripture that says They can't happen. But here's what we have to do. Number one, if we major on them, we are in instant error. If we look for them, we are in instant error.

And if we use them as some type of doctrinal confirmation, we are in instant error. I hope that's categorical and clear enough for everyone. If, however, While we're preaching and teaching sound scriptural truth, okay? While we are preaching and teaching sound scriptural truth. and there's a sense of the Holy Spirit coming, and there are these unusual manifestations.

that either produce faith or fear of the Lord, or healing and miracles, and Jesus is glorified through it. Again, we don't look to them for doctrinal confirmation. We don't look for them period. We don't put our trust in those things. They are peripheral at best.

But if God does something again, As we are, as his word is being declared, or we're worshiping him in a scriptural way, we're not just singing, you know, Hare Hare Krishna or something like that. And There's a sense of God's presence that brings fruit, either the fear of God or the joy of the Lord or healing or salvation, and it's good fruit that remains. And I would say, well, it seems like the Holy Spirit. That's how I would evaluate it.

Okay. Well, that makes sense. Would you I mean, would you throw things like these guys claiming supernatural weight loss and money appearing in their wallet in that same boat? Or do you think that's?

Okay. Okay, I don't want to say. that it can't happen, that I am massively Skeptical about some like the supernatural weight loss. As opposed to being disciplined. In fact, I got a story I'll tell you on the way back.

Stay right there. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you so much for calling 866-34TRUTH. All right, so Chris in Rockport, Missouri. Let me just finish this off.

There's a story that was told. I can't verify it. Gordon Lindsay, who was a great Christian leader, went to be with the Lord when early 70s. He was the founder of Christ for the Nations in Dallas with branches around the world. And the story is told that a severely obese woman came to him the day before her wedding.

and said, Brother Lindsay, would you please pray for me that I will lose two hundred pounds by my wedding to morrow? And according to the story, Gordon Lindsay replied, I'm sorry, but this kind only comes out by prayer and fasting. Yeah. So look, if somebody had some metabolic disorder. and gained a ton of weight and and got healed the disorder.

and removes the weight. Could he do that?

Well, just like he could heal a crippled limb or do things like that, why not? But I've never seen the actual testimonies of it on TV, but just put me in the list of skeptics. I mean, just like, and let me say that. And this is one very open to the Holy Spirit and is moving. I just have a major question when I hear something like that.

I know that God. And let me say one other thing. When it comes to like the gold teeth issue, You know, I've had a question about that for years. Like, let's say you're bald and you're praying for hair. Will God give you a toupee?

Or will he give you hair? If you have a heart condition, will God put a pacemaker in your body? Or will he heal the heart?

So we always used to wonder about that because we started hearing about this in the early 70s. That this guy's gonna pray for you, and you're gonna get gold teeth and silver teeth. And it was like, Well, why not just give you a healthy tooth? Or you're gonna get gold fillings? It's like, why get a filling?

So I've fundamentally questioned that for years, unless. For some reason, it's just a sign. That God does.

Now, I've got rock-solid friends who would die for Jesus, who are as scripturally sound as anybody you'll ever meet. And they said, yeah, Mike, what can I tell you? We witnessed it. We're eyewitnesses in our church. And we had dentists check this stuff out.

See, yeah, it's actual gold, actual silver. They can't explain it either.

So I just put that in let God be God. But I will absolutely not major on that, put the emphasis on that. Make that the big proof of anything. I'm going to preach Jesus, lift him up, preach the word, and as the Holy Spirit moves to the glory of God and to the edification of his body and the salvation of the world, then let God be God. The error is: if God does do some of these things, when we major on them, we're never look.

I was watching a meeting with two dear friends of mine, charismatic leaders, dear friends, I vouch for them, and they're talking about the presence of the Holy Spirit. And in this in this closed church building where they were. Suddenly as they're talking, this feather just comes Waffling down. I mean, there's nobody above them. There is nobody to drop it.

It just comes. just dro and they just smiled and laughed. And went on with the meeting. You know, we're like, was that a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence? Like, It certainly wasn't somebody just doing it there.

I don't think the devil was doing it, but whatever. They smiled and went on. And I think if that's our attitude, we're a lot safer. If we're going to now take the thing and sell duplicates of it, now you know where the thing's coming from. Yeah.

Alright. Yeah. Thank you. God bless you, mate.

Okay. So so listen, let me let me end here with Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards' principles. Discerning whether something is truly a revival movement or not.

Okay, it's in my book, Time for Holy Fire, chapter 15: The proof of the revival is in the living. Right, so it's in time for holy fire, the proof of the revival is in the living, chapter 15. Um And I go through Jonathan Edwards' nine non-signs. His nine non-signs saying, you can't conclude, you can't say this must be the Spirit or it can't be the Spirit. based on these things.

And I'll read the short version. Number one, nothing can be certainly concluded from this, that a work is carried on in a very unusual and extraordinary way, provided the variety or difference be such as may still be comprehended within the limits of Scripture rules.

So he's saying just because something is different. Doesn't mean it's not God as long as it can be. Uh Held within scripture rules. And his words, we ought not limit God where he has not limited himself. Number two.

Work is not to be judged by any effects on the bodies of men, such as tears, trembling, groans, loud outcries, agonies of body, or the failing of bodily strength. In other words, If this happens, it's like, wow, that must be the Lord. This person's collapsing or fainting or crying out or shaking. No, not necessarily.

Well, they can't be the Lord. No. You just don't know. A work is not to be judged based on it. Number three, it's no argument that an operation on the minds of the people is not the work of the Spirit of God, that it occasions a great deal of noise about religion.

Ah, they're a bunch of fanatics that well. Doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit's not working because people are saying this. Number four, it's no argument that an operation on the minds of a people is not the work of the Spirit of God, that many who are the subjects of it have great impressions made on their imaginations. Man, I saw it as a, man, my eyes are just open, my heart's burning.

Well, it doesn't mean it's not God because these unusual things happen. Number five, it's no sign that a work is not from the Spirit of God. That example is a great means of it. In other words, you see something happening and then the same thing happens elsewhere. It doesn't mean spirit's not working.

6. It's no sign that a work is not from the Spirit of God that many who seem to be the subjects of it are guilty of great imprudences and irregularities in their conduct. During times of awakening and revival, some people get weird. It doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong. Yeah, he said, and this is Jonathan Edwards, highly respected Jonathan Edwards.

Number seven. If some who were thought to be wrought upon fall away into gross errors or scandalous practices, it is an argument that the work in general is not the work of the Spirit of God. Yeah, that one's a heresy. That one's totally off. Yeah, but it doesn't mean the work as a whole is not from God.

Judged by the whole, not by the part. Um and hang on, hang on. Uh Number nine, it's no argument that a work is not from the Spirit of God, that it stands to be promoted by ministers, insisting very much on the terror of God's holy law, and that with a great deal of pathos and earnestness.

So he's saying that in those days they preached the law so heavily you think, wow, it could Could that be God? I mean, look at the emotional response that today it's the exact opposite. But those were his points. Then he gives five points. Let me summarize them in four just because of shortness of time.

Number one, Is the Jesus of Scripture exalted? As a result of this movement, As you watch the people touched over a period of time in their lives, is the Jesus of the Scriptures being exalted in their lives? Not some counterfeit Christ, but the Jesus of the Scriptures, is He being exalted in their lives. That's number one. And is he the one being exalted in the preaching?

Number two. Are people brought into conformity to the Word of God? Do they now love the Word of God and submit to the authority of the Word of God? Number three. is the movement producing repentance from sin and towards holiness.

Number four, is it resulting in a burden for the lost? If these four things are the fruit. of a movement or message or church or meeting. If these four things, the exaltation of the Jesus of the scriptures, submission to and love for the word of God, repentance from sin towards holiness, and a burden for the lost, if these four things are. are the result of a meeting, a movement, a message, then it's from the Lord.

Because Satan won't do it and the flesh can't do it. All right, friends, remember you can pre-order a signed and numbered copy, kind of a collector's edition of Breaking the Stronghold of Fruit. It's released to the general public January 3rd. You can order on Amazon if you like. But to get a special.

Book edition, signed, and yours in time for Christmas. Order as many as you want. This book to be the most important book you've read in yours. Go to thelineofire.org. My bottom line today: I want everything the Word of God says we should have, and nothing beyond it.