Out of the Line of Fire Archives: A Debate About Charles Finney

I say Charles Finney was a powerful evangelist used by God. My guest says Charles Finney was a false prophet used by the devil. Who's right? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm holding in my hands a brand new DVD that was sent to me. Nicely, by the nicenecouncil.com. Beware of false prophets, the case against Charles G. Finney. And it is produced and hosted by Jerry Johnson, who is the founder-president of Nicene Council.com, the Apologetics Group Incorporated.

Jerry has consented to come on and be my guest today. And I imagine that if we talked for hours, we would find hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things in common that we could rejoice in. But today we're going to debate this issue. We're going to lay our different views on the table and hopefully learn from each other. Michael Brown, thank you for joining us today on the line of fire.

Number to call 866-34TRUTH. I'm not sure how many calls I'll be able to get to today because I want to give maximum time to interaction with our guest, 866-348-7884. But by all means, weigh in on Facebook. Ask Dr. Brown, Ask D.R.

Brown on Facebook. Jerry Johnson is the founder and president of Nicene Council.com, the Apologetics Group Incorporated, the Apologetics. Group Media. He has earned a Master of Arts in Christian Studies and a Master of Philosophy and Theology and Apologetics from Whitfield Theological Seminary, currently working on a doctorate from Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Jerry was the senior writer and researcher for the best-selling documentaries Amazing Grace: History and Theology of Calvinism and the Marks of Occult, a biblical analysis.

He was also the author of corresponding study guides for both films. Jerry is a member of the Board of Regents for Whitfield Theological Seminary and serves as an adjunct professor at Knox Theological Seminary and Veritas Theological Seminary. Since 2005, Jerry has been a chaplain for Baseball Chapel, serving the Seattle Mariners' minor league team, the Pulaski Mariners. Hey, Jerry, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us on the broadcast today. Oh, Brother Mike, it is my pleasure.

And I gotta tell you, I'm sitting here at my desk, and I have my bulletproof vest on.

So go ahead and shoot. Ah, well wonderful. You let everything fly with the DVD. And while I am not out to defend every point of Charles Finney's theology, we definitely see things differently.

So I'm quite sure that we can learn from each other, sharpen each other.

So I've got my bulletproof vest on also, so feel free to fire back, okay? I'll do it, my brother. All right, terrific.

Okay, um Question for you first. I want to lay out things as clearly as I can and then go through the DVD point by point and how. have some interaction on it. Since Finney died in 1875, he lived from 1792 to 1875. Why do you feel it's so important to address his teaching theology ministry today so many years later?

Well, I believe that much of the broad evangelical church and what we're seeing as an erosion of biblical Christianity. though not solely is Finney responsible. I do believe that he was a catalyst for it in the 19th century. I believe Finney approached the whole idea of Christianity and revivalism. from a purely Newtonian methodology.

And I think as Newtonian ideas of the universe have eventually dissipated. that Finney's ideas have continued to stick around. And today we are reaping the harvest. um really uh a pragmatic approach to Christianity that the Bible does not promote or use. All right, and to be totally clear, and I'm going to read some of these quotes when we come back.

We just have a few minutes of intro here, and then we'll get into the heart of the show. But you plainly say that Finney was a false prophet, a heretic.

So in your view, according to Galatians 1, is Finney one of those that Paul placed a curse on? Absolutely. I believe Fitti came with another gospel. I do not believe it was the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean I don't believe Finney was a sincere man.

But he's in hell right now. He's burning in hell, according to you, correct? I believe if Finney embraced the theology that he articulated in his systematics and his memoirs, he could not be a Christian. And we make that. All right, we'll take it up.

Stay with us, folks. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks, folks, for joining us today. I have on the program with me Jerry Johnson, who is the president and founder of the Nicene Council.com and Apologetics Group. And we are debating a new DVD that they have produced, Beware of False Prophets, the case against Charles Finney, 86634Truth. Although I'm not sure that I'll be getting to calls today as I want to give maximum time to our guests.

Okay, Jerry, let's lay things out. I want to read some quotes from the back of the DVD and from the DVD itself. A quote, Charles G. Finney was clearly and undeniably a heretic. He did not preach nor teach the true gospel as set forth in the scriptures.

In fact, it is not an exaggeration to say that he was one of the greatest heretics of church history. You referred him on the video as an arch or arch heretic. You say Charles G. Finney was not a friend of the gospel. In fact, he despised it.

According to the Apostle Paul, Finney's gospel was no gospel at all. You speak of enemy operatives, infiltrators in our ranks. And then quote from Jesus in Matthew 7, beware of false prophets. And then you quote from 2 Corinthians 11, which speaks of Satan himself turning himself into an angel of light.

So I think you've made your views quite clear there, Jerry. I appreciate you pulling no punches.

Okay. Uh first I I had a real problem with your exegesis of Matthew 7. I don't want to park there for long because I do agree that false doctrine is terribly dangerous. But when Jesus says you can judge by the fruit, my study, my commentary on the book of Jeremiah would verify this in Jeremiah 23. Almost all the major Matthew commentaries I can find agree that it's talking primarily about conduct, not about doctrine here.

But since we both agree false doctrine is dangerous, let me raise something that I thought was... A low blow and kind of well, Michael, before you do that, let me just get to it. I've read numerous commentaries also. And I can only say that in the past probably 100 years, because if you go back to the old Puritan commentaries, they didn't argue that it was contact or conduct. The context of Matthew 7 is, beware of false prophets.

And then it's asked, what are the fruits of a false prophet? And the fruits of a false prophet are false prophecy or false teaching. To tie those in with the fruits of the spirit. I didn't say the fruits of the Spirit. I said conduct.

Yeah, you're reading all from the same little pool of extreme Calvinist commentators. As R.T. France said in Jeremiah 23, 9-15 and elsewhere, there is the ethical test. Their ungodly behavior gives them away. This last seems to be the closest to what is intended here.

I suggest you study carefully. I would disagree with him. Look at the actions of King David. Those were not proper actions, and yet David was a man after God's own heart. In the final analysis, what we teach is primary, and I'm sure I could go to non-Catholic.

Calvinist. commentaries. Back 100, 200, 300 years ago, and they would say the same thing: that the final lost profit is far from the farm. All right, but Jerry, just in fairness, I don't want to major on that.

Okay, I want to major on something that you did that I thought was a miserable low blow in the video and demeaning to your cause, which is this. You say that anyone can mimic the fruit of the Spirit. Anyone can appear to look... Like they're really living in the fruit of the spirit.

Now you're talking about Finney, okay? And then you show a clip of Adolf Hitler playing with children. I mean, what in the world was that doing in your video, sir? Adolf Hitler playing with children? Is that that people thought he was walking in the fruit of the Spirit?

People thought that he was a godly man, and now you're going to compare Finney to Hitler subtly? I mean, come on, what are you doing there?

Well, and I will say, I will say, if you look at the beginning of where that starts. What we're simply trying to demonstrate is even an evil person like Adolf Hitler. can appear to be kind or nice at times. And that was the only thing. And if we take an isolated event or even multiple ones, I'm sure that there are times that Adolf Hitler displayed great love for friends, for family, and for country.

It doesn't change the fact that he was wicked, though.

So you're actually saying that Adolf Hitler mimicked the fruit of the Spirit and that people really looked at him as an ethical, godly man. I heard what you just said, but it has nothing to do with Charles Finney. It has nothing to do with your false. No, it had to do with the fruits of the Spirit and the idea that a person can mimic. what we would consider to be Outwardly, those fruits.

Adolf Hitler mimicked. Adolf Hitler mimicked outwardly what we would call the fruit of the spirit. Are you serious? Can you not say that Adolf Hitler could show love? He could do a couple nice things while doing constant, ugly, immoral, hateful things, which has nothing to do with what you're saying.

You're claiming that someone could be predominantly nice while having evil intentions. No, he was doing evil constantly. The man was doing evil constantly, and here and there had a nice facade. But to put all I'm saying is that completely demeaning. 2 Corinthians 11 Corinthians 11.

2 Corinthians 11 disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers appear as ministers of righteousness. Going back to Matthew 7, isn't that what Christ is arguing when those who come before him are saying, Lord, Lord, we've done all these wonderful works in your name? And the conduct, and the conduct, and the conduct. Jerry, what does it say in Matthew 7? The conduct does not line up.

In Jesus' own words, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, and only those who do the will of the Father.

Okay, that was just, I just wanted to mention that. Let's go a little further. You talk about Finney's conversion story next, and here's what you say. His salvation testimony should be questioned. And here's where you start.

On page 16 of his memoirs, he uses first person pronouns 34 times, but only speaks of God twice. 34 references to himself on the next page, but none to God.

Now, by the way, and then you said Finney credits himself with his salvation. I'm going to read Finney directly, his own conversion account in a moment. But just out of curiosity, I checked Luther's introduction to the bondage of the will. And there are more than 20 first-person pronoun references before the first reference to God, which is then followed by more first-person pronouns. And Calvin's epistle to the reader at the beginning of his Institutes, there are 29 first-person pronouns in a total of four references to God, Lord, and no mention of Jesus.

I have to tell you, as I'm watching this, I thought, you can't be serious that I'm supposed to question Finney's conversion account as he talks about what's happening in his own life and what's going on in his own soul. I'm supposed to question that. Maybe I should question bondage of the will in Institutes because Luther and Calvin use so many first-person pronouns. Do you really mean that seriously, Jerry?

Well, again, I think you're not looking at the whole. You're looking at a particular instance. And when we get into Sinney's view of justification, of regeneration, of original sin, and his belief that the actual turning or change in regeneration is the sinner's own act. The sinner actually changes and is therefore himself, in the most proper sense, the author of a changed heart. And that is a direct quote from Finney from his sermon, sinners have a change in heart.

Jerry, we'll come to that. We'll come to that example. No, no, I'm presenting as an organic whole. No, no, I'm just quoting. I'm just going.

Jerry, I just made notes. Jerry, I just made notes as I was going through. I've got all the notes about original sin and all these things. I'm just going through the video in the order it was presented. You made a point, and you made the outrageous claim that Finney credits himself with his salvation.

Here, let me read what Finney says in his conversion account as he's coming under conviction. Just at this point, the whole question of gospel salvation opened to my mind in a matter most marvelous to me at the time. I think I then saw, as clearly as I ever have in my life, the reality and fullness of the atonement of Christ. I saw that his work was a finished work, and that instead of having or needing any righteousness of my own to recommend me to God, I had to submit myself to the righteousness of God through Christ. Gospel salvation seemed to me to be an offer of something to be accepted, and that it was full and complete, and that all that was necessary on my part was to get my own consent to give up my sins and accept Christ.

Salvation, it seemed to me, instead of being a thing to be wrought out by my own works, was a thing to be found entirely in the Lord Jesus Christ, who presented himself before me as my God. and my Saviour. which then Finney receives as a gift. And as he says in his other quotes, it was grace from beginning to end. You completely mischaracterize his conversion account on your video, sir.

No one would get a hint that Finney said what he said. And this quote would be very damning to your position. I would do this. I would challenge your readers or your listeners. To go in and read Finney's memoirs.

Now, I've read the completely restored text three times. And I went over Finney's creation or conversion account. In fact, I went to outside sources that Finney had related the story to. Even took me six months to track down George Washington Gale's autobiography and read it from cover to cover, as well as Azahel Nettleton and Lehman Beecher and others, including Mayhem. And I wanted to compare and contrast all of the different accounts of his conversion experience.

And when I look at the totality of his theology, and this is why, Brother Mike. that if you look at What um I really believe, I think it was John MacArthur. who uh when he was going through Finney's own work. have made the comment that if you look at Finney. And how he really reasoned And how he, um learn to learn theology.

He wrote this. Tell you what, hang on to the MacArthur quote. We've got a break. We'll start there. I still say two things.

Number one, Folks have no idea of the conversion account, the way it really happened, and based on what I read watching your video. And number two, that was really silly to say the thing about the first person pronouns. And again, made me wonder how serious the video was. It got more serious, but it started out very shakily, in my humble opinion. And you can rebut me when we come back, sir.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, I am having the joyful privilege of debating a brother in the Lord with whom I probably have far more in common than I differ with, Jerry Johnson, founder-president of NiceneCouncil.com, the Apologetics Group Inc., and the producer and host of a new video, Beware of False Prophets, The Case Against Charles G. Finney. Jerry, we've both, we've got our vests on. Where do you live, by the way? What state?

I live in the state of compute. No, I'm just kidding. I live in Virginia. Virginia. All right, so we're not that far away.

I'm in North Carolina.

So we'll have to sit down and have a meal together without our bulletproofs on and find areas. I've got to actually say, if I may, plug one of your books. I had ordered your book on uh Oh, good night, brother. I'm going to forget the title of it. A Queer Thing Happened to America.

I'm really looking forward to getting into it. I've heard great things about it.

So I do believe you're right. You and I are going to agree more than we disagree. In fact, Michael, if I may have your permission, Um, can I can I say something here real quick? Go for it.

Okay, and I thought about this long and hard since Marcus contacted me about being on the broadcast. And I'm guessing that when it comes to orthodoxy, since you and I are brothers in the Lord Jesus. That we both, by the grace of God, maintain biblical and historical orthodoxy. And I want to give you some examples. I'm sure both of us believe that the Bible alone is the Word of God.

I'm sure that both of us believe that the fall as recorded in Genesis chapter 1 was a real and devastating event on mankind. We both believe that as a result of the fall, Adam and Eve Fell into sin and passed that sinful nature on to all of their posterity. We both believe, therefore, that man's nature is sinful, what you and I and what scholars call original sin. I would further contend that you and I both believe that man does not become a sinner when he sins. But he sins because he is born with that sinful nature that he inherited from Adam and Eve.

And I know that both of us believe that the only remedy For both original and actual sin is the blood of the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus. And that it is by faith. in him and his substitutionary death on the cross alone that we are saved. Would you agree with all of that? Sure thing.

Sure thing. Okay. Our disagreement is over what Finney taught. I believe Finney not only denied original sin and railed against it, but he also denied double imputation and substitutionary or penal atonement.

Now I'm guessing. If you and I went to hear uh some evangelists speak and this guy was saying there is no original sin, um, there is no imputation of our sinfulness to Christ and his righteousness to us. And Christ was not a substitute for our our sins on the cross. I'm sure you would turn to me and say, hey, Jerry, there's something wrong with this guy, wouldn't you? Sure thing.

You bet.

Okay. And and and see, that's where we are. The question really comes down to what did Finney believe? Last night, I read a book by a guy who was a pro Finneyite, who believes like you do, that I have it all wrong. I don't believe I have it wrong.

Nothing would give me greater joy, though, to find out that I was wrong. I want Finny to be in heaven. I want Arius to be in heaven. You know, I don't want anybody to be in hell. But because of my convictions to the Bible and to historic orthodoxy, I believe that Finney denied the things that I just mentioned, of which you and I agree.

So the issue comes down, what did Fenny believe? And you had read a quote on Finney's conversion, and I think that's a great quote. Let me just read this this was John MacArthur's assessment after his studies of Finney. He wrote this, quote, Finney's legal training I condition him with a world of wrong presuppositions. Finney's notions of justice, guilt, righteousness, transgression, forgiveness, sovereignty, and a host of other terms were drawn from his legal studies.

not the scriptures.

So, just to state it again, the real question is: what did Finney believe, and how did he teach? And how important is the doctrine of original sin and its effects? It has on other doctrinal convictions. All right, so let me yeah, let me jump in then and say a few things. Obviously, that's the issue to us.

What did Finney actually believe in? In which case, this is a secondary debate. Because we two, both of us agree on the fundamental things that you both mentioned. And we are not Finney's judge ultimately. I was.

Powerfully impacted by Finnish writings, by his conversion, by the piercing nature of his preaching, by the hunger for God that it produced. By the deep lasting repentance that I saw it bring, by the deep hatred of sin that I saw it produce. But my salvation is not dependent upon him being right, nor is your salvation dependent upon him being wrong.

So in that sense, it's secondary. But here's the problem I have with MacArthur and these other fine men who are attacking Finney. I look at lots and lots of other things Finney said. Just last night, I was reading verse after verse, you know, his book, Sermons on Gospel Themes, where he preaches the gospel page after page after page, and receiving everything Jesus did by faith, and the power of his death, and the power of his blood, and our universal guilt before God, etc. And I just say that he was now explaining those things as a lawyer, that he was combating a lot of the dead theology that he found in his day.

I think the place we'd have our most agreement is that he had a strange way of coming to the concept of the universal guilt of the human race, but he said this, that by nature we're all going to sin, Ephesians the second chapter. And he said, subsequent to the commencement of moral agency previous to regeneration, the moral depravity of mankind is universal without any mixture of moral goodness or virtue. He also said we can also predict without the gift of prophecy that with a constitution physically depraved, that was probably his strangest thing, just the constitution physically depraved, and surrounded with objects to awaken appetite with all the circumstances in which human beings first form their moral character, they will seek universally to gratify themselves. And then he said the fact that Christ died in the stead On behalf of sinners, proves that God regarded them not as unfortunate, But as criminal And altogether without excuse. You know, I have a few more quotes to that same effect.

And then I have quotes from him quoting even John Newton, amazing hymns about the atoning work of Jesus.

So let's do this. Let's take... Got a break coming up. Let's take the second half of the show and let's go through original sin, justification by faith, atonement. Let's lay out what you understand Finney said.

That I felt was the better part of your video. I took more issue with the first half introduction. And then we'll go through it point for point. And I'll read you some other quotes from Finnie since you've studied it so much, and you can react.

So we'll spend the next half hour doing that. I've got a break, though.

So, fair enough, Jerry. Yes, sir. All right, great. Thank you for holding.

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Brown.org. Again, the number to call 1-800-278-9978. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm so glad to have on the program today Jerry Johnson, who is founder president of NiceneCouncil.com and the Apologetics Group Incorporated. Their newest video, Beware of False Prophets, The Case Against Charles G.

Finney. Jerry, thanks again for joining me today. I appreciate it.

Okay, we've got just in this segment about four minutes.

So let me throw out a question for you, and then I'll give you most of the time to respond. Finney, again, speaking of moral depravity, said the carnal mind reveals itself in a whole life of rebellion against God. That unconverted men are in a state of rebellion against the authority of God is one of the plainest facts that lie in the face of society.

So in Finney's view, Deuteronomy 139, verses like that, which talk about little children didn't understand good and evil. Isaiah 7 would be a similar passage. That based on that, human beings are born with a fallen nature that will. Always lead to sin, but that they choose to sin as a result of that nature and then are universally. Guilty before God.

So the conclusion is every human being is inevitably going to sin once they come into adulthood or the time where they can think and understand for themselves and choose to act freely. They universally will sin. They are universally guilty before God, utterly condemned with no possible hope of salvation. In themselves.

So the question would be: even in this area, that some might say would be the the the quirkiest of Finneys with his physical depravity statement. Isn't it the exact same conclusion? That we're all universally guilty, that we all have sinned, that we're fully responsible for our sin, that we can blame no one but ourselves, and that we have to plead with God for mercy through the cross. Isn't the conclusion? Exactly the same.

And to me, that's why Finney preached against sin with such passion and exposed its ugliness with such passion.

So, your take, sir. Michael, you know, when I read the work last night by a fellow who was defending. Charles Finney. Um what I had noticed And what I believe he did, and when I entered the study of this subject, I got to confess. I didn't know much about Finny.

I come from, like you, a Pentecostal charismatic background. I was saved in a Pentecostal church. And, you know, Finney was touted as being this great evangelist, and I really had no reason to doubt it. But it was probably about five years ago I started a nominal study, and then that picked up about two years later when I started reading a lot more of Finney.

Now, let me do this. Let me give you this quote. Oh, I was going to tell you. I'm sorry, I went off track. This guy that I was reading last night, I think what he wanted.

And this is what I believe a lot of good men want. is they take Finney's words. And they read Some type of evangelicalism into those words and assume that Finney is meaning the same thing that we mean. And I don't believe he does. In fact, I have a plethora of quotes that I could have added.

But let me just give you one from his systematic theology, page 179. And by the way, this is the bicentennial edition, it is an abridged edition. He says this, original sin is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma. that a holy angry God I'm sorry, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent. Then he goes on to says original or constitutional sinfulness Physical regeneration and all their kindred and resulting dogmas are alike subversive of the gospel and repulsive to the human intelligence.

Now, that's page 179 of this book, and it goes on. It is a diatribe. And I will say this, there are men, they're not all Calvinists. and not all Christian. Hardman, who wrote the book, What Was It, Modern Reformation and Revival?

Hey. made this comment and he's not even a Christian. He said Nettleton's insistence on preaching the doctrine of original sin put him increasingly out of touch with Charles Finney. And these are I mean, I I've got here numerous quotes from Charles Hodge, B. B.

Warfield. R. C. Sproll in his series Grateful One Part two noted that Pelagianism Periodically rears its head at the same time.

Alright, tell you what, Jerry. Yeah, let me just cut in here. We'll come back to that. My question is still, though, if you end up saying all human beings will sin. inevitably and will be 100% guilty before God.

Isn't that the same end result?

So we'll talk that through. Fire we want, oh fire we want. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am not giving out the phone number a lot on the program today because I want to take every minute myself to have discussion. Fruitful discussion, I hope, with my guest, Jerry Johnson, founder and president of Nicene Council.com, the Apologetics Group, Inc. And the producer and host of the new video, Beware of False Prophets: The Case Against Charles G.

Finney. So, Jerry, as I've read Finney, I have seen him as in the mainstream of evangelicalism, which is why a great Calvinistic theologian like J.I. Packer would endorse him. You say Packer probably didn't actually read what he had to say, but... I'm just trying to extend grace.

Right, right, right. Or perhaps Packer saw something that you didn't. I think, again, it's the grid of how we understand him and which quotes are the most important. I see that Finney's issue with, quote, original sin was that it took away human responsibility, whereas his thing was to argue for the full guilt and full human responsibility of our sin, that we're 100% guilty before God by our deeds and that we can't blame anyone for it. That's what I take the greater argument to be, and hence his constant pushing to salvation through Jesus alone.

All Christians and sinners are to understand that the whole plan is complete, that the whole of Christ, his character, his work, his atoning death, and his ever-living intercession. Belong to each and every man and need only to be accepted. There's a full ocean of it. He said, You do not need to have in yourselves the attributes of Jesus Christ, for his attributes become practically yours for all possible use. As saith the scripture, he is of God made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

What do you need? Wisdom, here it is, righteousness, here it is, sanctification. Here you have it. All is in Christ. Can you possibly think of any one thing needful for your moral purity or your usefulness which is not here in Christ?

Nothing. All is provided here.

So I look at those statements and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of others just like that. to say I now put everything else in the context of that's the normative reading to me, and I'll understand everything else in that context. And I mean, surely you found hundreds of statements to this effect in his preaching and teaching. Oh, absolutely. And and I'm not saying that I disagree with everything Benny says.

The problem is, I believe, the core of his doctrine. is heresy, and I mean that in the full historical sense of the word. Um A quote you probably saw on the video, and this comes right out from his complete and restored text. He writes that Gale, talking about George Washington Gale, taught that men were passive in regeneration. And in short, he held all those doctrines that logically flow from the fact of a nature sinful in itself.

These doctrines I could not receive.

Now I start out that section. Clothing. Um The great Arminian preacher, John Wesley. Yes. And John Wesley says this: all who deny this, call it original sin or by any other title, are but heathens still in the fundamental point which differences heathenism from Christianity.

They may indeed allow that men have many vices. That's something that Finney did. that summer born with us, that's something Finney did. But here is the shibboleth. Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil?

Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupt? Or to come back to the text: is every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually? Allow this, John Wesley says.

And you are so far a Christian. Deny it and you are but a heathen. Still. See, when I make this pronouncement, brother, This pronouncement was not just Jerry Johnson conjuring up something in his own mind. I believe Finney is a Pelagian.

Now, by that, I don't think he went as far as Pelagius in some things. And in other things, I think he surpassed Pelagius. But we have what Seven Church councils. Four of them ecumenical in nature that say that if you deny the doctrine of original sin. That children before they are born, before they have done good or evil.

um inherit a sinful nature from Adam, all of us. That uh if you deny that You are anathema. And this was the decision of the Council of Carthage in 412. This was a decision, reaffirmation in 46. The Council of North African Churches in 418, the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431.

Hang on, did you hold? Even though a lot of those councils had a lot of anti-Semitic stuff and rejected a lot of scriptural authority, had a lot of weird. Doctrines you're having for a solva scriptura guy quoting all those catalogs. I want to see that as an example that it's not just my judgment. No, no, I understand again.

But here's my question. Here's my spoken argument. Hang on. I haven't gotten my argument. Jerry, just hang on.

I haven't gotten an answer to my question, though. Since Finney says And to me, this is where I have the least agreement with Finney, okay? Interest. But if since Finney says, again to quote, the carnal mind reveals itself in a whole life of rebellion against God, that unconverted men are in a state of rebellion against the authority of God is one of the plainest facts that lie in the face of society.

So he believed that every human being was born physically depraved, and that every human being by nature, according to Ephesians 2, would sin. and would only and inevitably sin, that it was guaranteed and absolutely sure, and that every human being then would become universally guilty before God, needing atonement that could only come through the blood of Jesus. I still don't get, you're preaching a message, right? Nobody knows your theology, okay? And you're preaching to people and you're telling them they are sinners in the sight of a holy God, that there's no possible way that they can save themselves, that they are utterly damned by their sin, and that given a thousand lifetimes to do it again, they would always do the same thing, and they need to flee to the cross for salvation.

Isn't the end result the same in terms of that conviction of sin? When I got saved, I had no clue about original sin. All I knew was I was guilty. I had sinned. When you look at the preaching in the book of Acts, show me where it emphasizes original sin.

What it emphasizes is the guilt of that generation before God for their own deeds. That's what Finney was doing.

So I still don't understand. We could argue theology all day long, but if we're going to be sola scriptura, let's look at the preaching pattern at the book of Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament. And it's always calling people to be responsible for their sin against God, their guilt. Not to say that Adam sinned and we were all born sinners, but to say, I have sinned. I am guilty.

I need to repent. I need to turn and ask for mercy and forgiveness. That's what I'm still missing with you, Jerry. Yeah, real quick, let me say this: there is a difference between a reason and an excuse. When I was a kid and I would do something wrong and my dad would ask me why, The minute I would go into excuse mode, he would stop me.

And he would say, son, I asked you for a reason. I'm not asking you for an excuse because there is no excuse for your behavior. I want to make that point simply because I do believe that Finney confused the two. Second, I have quotes from Finney where I believe he defines his terms. For example, moral depravity, as he used the term, quote.

Cannot consist in any attribute of nature. or constitution, nor in any lapsed or fallen state of nature. Moral depravity, as I use the term, does not consist in nor imply a sinful nature in the sense that the human soul is sinful enough. No, no, no, you've given ample quotes on that. I'm not arguing that.

I'm simply asking, just here, you would say that we don't go up to people and say, God has a wonderful plan for your life. Where is that preaching in the book of Acts?

Well, I'm just asking. Hold on a moment. Where is that? I'm just asking the pattern here. You know, we're shooting at long targets.

I do not believe Finney was an Arminian, and I believe Arminians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Right, right. But I'm not arguing about Arminianism. You are, because that is an Arminian. Belief there.

No, no, I'm talking about the Bible. Jerry, I'm asking you, where in the Bible?

Okay. I didn't even make that statement in the video. But I'm asking you, I'm solva scriptura.

Okay. I'm a Jew following Jesus. Church canons have interest to me, but ultimately it's scripture that's make or break for me. I agree. Finney's preaching, okay?

Finny's preaching. His messages, where over, and this is the fruit of his evangelism, the messages that he preaches call people to repentance, hold them universally responsible and universally guilty before God with no possible hope of reformation in themselves because of their sin.

So, isn't that the gospel message? Where does the gospel message require an evangelist to say that you sinned because of original sin? I don't see that anywhere in the New Testament preaching. I see the responsibility. No, I'm simply talking about the ministry of an evangelist.

Because you're calling a guy a heretic, you're damning him to hell, you're saying he preached another gospel. I'm looking at his gospel message, and it's a biblical message to repent before I go before God. I really, really, Brother Mike, thought I had explained that. That I believe Finney is using terms like the Mormon church does. He's using terms like God, Heavenly Father, Trinity, salvation, justification, but he's given totally different meanings to it.

I'm trying to give, and that's what I tried to do specifically. I just quoted his definition of moral depravity. But I've just read I've read two of his messages on that this morning. And again, Yeah.

So then you explain to me pages 166 and 167 in his abridged lectures on systematic theology and tell me what in the world he means by that because to me and to thousands of other people that have read it and have written on it, they say. Tell you what, we're going to focus. We got one last segment. Let's focus on atonement. I'll sketch our differences when we come back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am having a joyful debate with my brother-in-the-lord, Jerry Johnson, founder-president of NiceneCouncil.com, the Apologetics Group, Inc., and host and producer of a new video with which I take strong exception.

Beware of false prophets, the case against Charles G. Finney. Hey, Jerry, I don't want to put you on the spot, but would you ever consent to have a public debate on cessationism? Um, you know what, brother? I've got to let you know.

I've read the arguments on it and I'm not thoroughly convinced.

Okay. All right, fine. Yeah, if I find, if I'm assuming that you're talking about the end of the gifts of the Spirit. Yes, sir. Yeah, because I'm still charismatic and you said you were.

I'm just.

Okay, we can come back to that. I could only argue against it pragmatically at this point. I mean, there are passages in Scripture where I think that it definitely. appears to be. My only problem is, and I'll let you know this: I've got good friends of mine.

And what I tell them is: if you have a prayer language and you believe that it's drawing you closer to God, I'm not going to deny you the right of that. And if I believe that it's to me, that's not an issue I'm going to really stand or die on. But I would love to discuss it on a radio program with you one time and just kind of give you both sides, that the cessationist view and then the continuation view. Because uh I I sometimes wonder if there's not a happy medium to be meet to be met. All right.

Yeah, but by all means, we could probably take our vests off for that show, but our bulletproof vests. But uh okay.

Well, and uh, you know what? It's funny, I I will tell you this. I read Jack Deere's book, his first one a few years ago. Sure. Uh and are you familiar with that uh Assembly of God guy, uh, Douglas Oz or O's?

Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, I've read their stuff and they've got some pretty good works out there. In the final analysis, though, I stand on Sola Scriptura. But But again, I would have to qualify that, and I know we don't have time. All right.

Okay, we've got about six minutes to just Let me just say this very briefly. I don't want to frustrate you, but just very briefly about the original sin issue. I definitely do not see it the same way that Finney does there, okay? But to me, because everything that he preached. Had the same end result of universal guilt, no excuse.

We are sinners and we will always sin, and the only way to be changed is by the new birth and by the power of the Spirit, by the blood of Jesus. That to me is not like a Mormon way of reading it. That to me is saying he may have had some objections to some things and a weird way of coming at some stuff, but ultimately came to the same conclusions about what we do as human beings and our need for salvation. But put that aside. All right, well, let me atone.

Have you read much of Pelagius and Celestus? MV. Just a little. And I know Finney's commonly called a Pelagian. I understand that.

But okay, just quickly, though. These guys are saying the same thing. It's all the grid with which we see them. For example, I'm sure that you would praise a lot of the works of Luther and Calvin. I can have appreciation for them.

But Luther said some of the worst, most horrific, ugliest, bizarre. Statements of any leader in church history. I guess you're referencing his book on the Jews and their lives. Oh, no, no, not just that.

Some of his sin freely stuff and sin boldly. I was just pulling out quotes and thought, man, if I want to do a hatchet job on Luther or Calvin's Doom from the Wound stuff or the atrocities attributed to him, I mean, to me, it's a matter of are we coming at it sympathetically or unsympathetically? And the question is, where does the truth lie? But just very quickly, in the last literally four minutes that we have, Take a couple of minutes and then I'll respond. Your issues with Finney's doctrine of atonement.

So give it your best shot for like two minutes and then I'll interrupt you and give you my response and and then we'll we'll figure out how to sit down and have some fellowship together, okay? And good deal, brother. Basically, Finney's view of the atonement is not a substitutionary atonement. And I believe that is the primary evangelical doctrine when it comes to the idea that Christ died as a sacrifice and a payment for sin. And I have to emphasize that word payment.

Finney said on page 206 of his systematic theology, The substitutionary view of the atonement. assumes that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt. which we have seen does not consist with the nature of the atonement. It is true that the atonement of itself does not secure the salvation of anyone. Benny has a very held to a view known as the governmental theory of the atonement.

And the governmental theory of the atonement holds that Christ by his death actually paid the penalty for no man's sins. What his death did was to demonstrate that their sins deserved what they deserved at the hand of the just governor and judge of the universe. Permits God justly to forgive men if, on other grounds, such as their faith, their repentance, their works, and their perseverance, they meet His demands. By the way, I'm quoting here. But this is just to eviscerate the Savior's work of all of his intrinsic saving work and to replace the Christocentric vision of Scripture with the auto-satiric vision of Pelagianism.

And that's a quote from Dr. Robert Raymond in his new systematic theology of the Christian faith. One, I echo Dr. Raymond's assessment of the governmental theory of the atonement. And two, I believe this is exactly what Finney held to.

And I can quote hundreds of passages from his memoirs and his systematic theology and his revival lectures where he made such statements. All right. Well, thank you for being concise and clear on that, Jerry. And those parts are laid out clearly on the video in terms of the differences. And I guess the question is, you know, which is going to influence which in our understanding.

I see that Finney objected to the idea that Jesus took the exact literal punishment that would have been required for every human being who ever lived in sin, and rather took the representative punishment. I see statements like this. God so loved the world that he gave his son to die for it. And let me just grab these really quick. There's some very intense quotes from Finney about atonement.

He talks about the original words. Atonement is the governmental substitution of the sufferings of Christ for the punishment of sinners. It is a covering of their sins by his sufferings. Just as the uplifted axe would otherwise have fallen on your neck, he caught the blow on his own. You could have no life if he had not died to save it.

The Bible, especially almost everywhere, represents his death or the shedding of his blood as a vicarious offering for our sins. The texts which prove this are too numerous to be quoted in a skeleton. That Christ's sufferings and especially his death were vicarious has been abundantly shown in treating the subject of atonement. His point was that unless it's joined by faith, it doesn't avail, and that true faith. will produce a transformation.

Hey, Jerry, we're out of time. I think this has been enlightening for our listeners, and it's a good introduction for us to get to know each other. We have a mutual friend in Dr. James White. I understand you're doing a cruise with him, aren't you?

We are cruising. Actually, we're going to have an arm wrestling match, or at least I've challenged him to one. Don't challenge him to a bike riding match. But hey, Jerry, thanks for being with us. We're out of time here.

And friends, Listen back. I encourage you to get online, check for some of Finney's sermons like God's Love for a Sinning World or sermons on gospel themes or his sermon on atonement. Let me give you my bottom line, and on this, my guest and I agree: Salvation is found in the blood of Jesus alone. We are universally guilty before God. We have no possible hope of saving ourselves or redeeming ourselves or improving ourselves.

Our only hope is to cast ourself on God, plead for mercy, ask him to wash us clean by the blood of Jesus and give us a new life. And a new life he will give us indeed. Lying behind today's shallow Christianity is an epidemic of shallow conversions and lying behind the shallow conversions is an epidemic of shallow conviction. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I just had the joy of having a one-hour debate with Jerry Johnson from Nicene Council and Apologetics Group. He put out a new video, Beware of False Prophets, The Case Against Charles G. Finney. And while I don't support every word of Finney's theology for sure, I looked at Finney as a great evangelist who's been mightily used by God. And my guest viewed Charles Finney as a false prophet who's been used by Satan.

So we had a great conversation. You can listen to it later by going online to askdrbrown.org. Click on the line of fire, and you can listen to the first hour of today. programming. The discussion about Finney gets me on the subject of conviction of sin, gets me on the subject of the work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.

And if we're going to talk about moral and cultural revolution, old friends, this is big. This is important. This is major. Michael Brown, thank you so much for joining us today on the line of fire. I didn't take any calls the last hour, which means I'm ready to take calls this hour.

Here's the number to call, 866-34TRUTH. 866-348-7884. Online, Facebook, ask Dr. Brown, S D R Brown, or ask Dr. Brown.org for our website.

Okay. Let me throw out a question for you. Do you see generally in our church culture today a lot of superficiality? A lack of moral conviction. In fact, I'm going to address tomorrow a little bit more the question of the moral apathy and our culture and what we can do about it.

But Do you see just a lot of superficiality in the church? Have you been saved a number of years like I have? It's almost 40 now. And certainly there's a whole lot more superficiality now in most circles than there was when I first got saved. I'm talking about in America in the church of America.

Thank God for the good, committed, deeper, hungry life that's there among many believers. But you see a lot of superficiality. Do you see a lot of conviction of sin? Uh let me let me go a little further. Do you see people coming under real conviction when they come to faith, when they get saved, when they are born again?

Or. Do you primarily see people like joining the church, like joining a club? or following Jesus because of the benefits. Do you hear a lot of gospel preaching today where the primary emphasis would be on all the wonderful things Jesus can do for you, how he can make you a bigger and better you if you'll just put your trust in him, how he'll get rid of the guilt and clean up your life and give you eternal life and then blessing and prosperity in this world, not all of which is false, by the way. But that's the primary message.

And then not a lot of conviction. Not a lot of people being undone by their sin. One of the things that struck me about Finney's own conversion and Finney's own ministry is the depth to which he was convicted before God, the depth to which he was undone before God, the depth to which he got saved to the bone, as I've often said. And then when he preached it to others, they would get saved to the bone. There would be the same kinds of radical convictions.

Do you see a lot of that happening? Radical conversions, I should say. Do you see a lot of that happening today? Or do you see more superficial conversions? I'm not asking you to name names of preachers or to judge individuals.

I'm just talking symptomatically what you see as you look out. in the body. Let me throw this out from another angle. Do you think perhaps that that's old-fashioned negative preaching? Do you think perhaps that that's an old wineskin, not something God is doing?

This whole conviction, and you're weighed down with the guilt and burden of sin. And oh God, I'm a sinner. Oh, God, have mercy on me. Oh, God, save me. That's the old way.

That we've improved on that. We've come into something better. We've come into a more wonderful, hey, here's life, here's blessing, here's all the good stuff.

Now enjoy Jesus. And it's a better way. You don't need to go by the way of conviction. We're going to talk about that. We're going to focus on conviction.

I'm going to read you some stirring accounts of God working. And I want to remind you of something. John the 16th chapter says, when the Holy Spirit comes into the world, he will convict the world of sin. This is a ministry of the Holy Spirit. Myself do not believe this is some old wine skin that has been displaced, but we'll take your calls.

We'll talk about it. 866-34Truth. How'd you get saved, by the way? Conviction or not? It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Conviction of sin, the Holy Spirit piercing into the depths of our being.

Showing us our guilt before God so that we cry out for salvation and mercy. Boy, that's a theme in Scripture. And it's something that's happened in revival movements and church history. I've been an eyewitness to it. I've lived through it.

I myself was saved after the Holy Spirit put me through deep conviction. I've had major changes in my life. And as a believer where the Holy Spirit worked on me with deep conviction, I want to crawl out of my skin. I felt so miserable. But then mercy was found at the cross.

And boy, change came. Could it be that a big problem in the church today is superficial conversions because of superficial or even no conviction? Thanks for joining us on the line of fire, 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Online, askdrbrown.org. Uh this week we have a special resource package really meant to stir your hearts.

And I'm going to be reading from some of the materials.

So if you're interested in getting these, we'll tell you later in the program how to get hold of these. But in my book, A Time for Holy Fire, Preparing the Way for Divine Visitation. There is a whole chapter on conviction. I mentioned before that when I was writing this chapter and entering some of the quotes in it, at one point I got so charged and so blessed that I. Uh I I jumped up I I I put put well, I didn't have a pen, I was writing at my computer.

I stepped away from it and jumped I started jumping up and down. I was staying at a guest room in a friend's home and I I I jumped up and down with joy at the power of these quotes. And uh Oh, from Duncan Campbell and the Hebrides. Another main feature of the 1949 Hebrides revival has been deep conviction of sin, at times leading almost to despair. I have known occasions when it was necessary to stop preaching because of the distress manifested by the anxious, and many would find expression for the feeling in their hearts and the burden of their guilty conscience in the words of John Newton.

My conscience felt and owned its guilt and plunged me in despair. I saw my sins, his blood had spilt and helped to nail him there. In the parish of Wig, not sure how to pronounce it, UIG, all lorries and vans available were put into service to convey the people to the place of worship. Yet many were forced to walk miles, but distance did not matter. And at any rate, they knew that the meetings would continue.

If they were not in time for the first, they would be sure of getting the second or the third, because they would run all night.

So they came across the moors and over the hills, young men and maidens, their torches flashing in the darkness, intent upon one thing: to get peace from a guilty conscience and refuge from the storm in their bosom in the shelter of the rock of ages. W. Graham Scrogge said there has never been a spiritual revival which did not begin with an acute sense of sin. Brian Edwards, these are all opening quotes in the conviction chapter in my book, A Time for Holy Fire. Revival is always a revival of holiness.

and it begins with a terrible conviction of sin. It is often the form that this conviction of sin takes that troubles those who read of revival.

Sometimes the experience is crushing. People weep un uncontrollably and worse, but there is no such thing as a revival without tears of conviction and sorrow. Revival in China in 1906 was marked by a wholly unusual conviction of sin. In 1921, in the revival that began in the East Anglian fishing ports of Lostarft and Great Yarmouth, strong fishermen were literally thrown to the floor under conviction until one eyewitness reported, the ground around me was like a battlefield with souls crying to God. Yeah.

Mercy. Boy. Boy, boy. conviction of sin. Doesn't it make sense?

that when we realize our guilt before God, And then when we realize the great love he shows towards us in Jesus dying to pay for our sins. It doesn't it make sense that we would be undone? Doesn't it make sense that that we would come unglued? I mean just Just think of the irresponsibility of our sin. From the ages of 14 to 16, I sinned boldly and without guilt.

I'm ashamed of it. I stole money from my own father. I I shot heroin. I broke into houses in the doctor's office just for fun and to see what we could get. I was cruel to my best friends.

I deceived everyone I knew how to deceive. And I was so full of pride. And I did what I did without any sense of guilt. I was a fallen, lost, human sinner. When people in this little Italian Pentecostal church in Queens, New York began to pray for me, I didn't know what was happening, but I'd lay in bed at night and I'd I'd feel miserable.

Used to be I'd lay in bed, I'd get high on drugs, and if I wanted to sleep, I slept. If I want to stay up, I'd stay up, and I'd lay in bed thinking. I remember distinctly, look at all this cool stuff I did, man. Betrayed my best friends and stole money from them. Is that cool?

I told this one one story, another one, another story. They never figured it out. And now the next night, I'm laying there thinking the exact same thoughts. And instead of patting myself on the back, I'm undunked. Oh, what's the matter?

Ugly, foul sinner. What's the matter with you? And I didn't necessarily use the word sinner, but I felt guilty. I felt terrible. What's the matter with you?

When I got saved. Oh, the revelation of the love of God and the goodness of God, the revelation that Jesus died. For me, the revelation of how much love he had for me to clean me up when I was in my sin and to give me a brand new life. And here I was just going out and playing in the mud with these, you know, beautiful, white, new garments. And I'm going back out in the mud after he revealed his love to me.

I said, that's it. I'll never put a needle in my arm again. I mean, the conviction coupled with the revelation of the love of God was absolutely transforming for me. And to tell you the truth, I don't see a lot of preaching that brings conviction on sinners. I see a lot of invitations that invite people to have a better life in Jesus.

And tell them all the wonderful things God will do for them, while leaving out the essential part of the story, our guilt before God. That's why He hangs and dies on a cross. It's not just an example. Look at how loving God is, His Son dies on the cross. No, He dies to pay for our sins.

He dies because of our sins. He dies for our sins. He takes the weight of the guilt of our sins on his own shoulders, and he dies that we can live. Whoa, talk about a message that should give us cause to give the rest of our lives to Jesus. That's the gospel.

That's the power of the gospel. And I see way, way, way too little preaching that brings conviction and way too little ministry of the Spirit that brings conviction. And the revival movements I've been in, one for a period of months, one for a period of years, have been marked by deep conviction of sin. People choking on their tears, people crying for days. And when they come through, they're changed.

They're changed. And the great, great bulk don't go back to who they were because the conversion has been deep and real. We're talking about conviction of sin right here on the line of fire. Tommy in Orlando, Florida, thanks for calling the line of fire today. Hello?

Yes, hello, Tommy. You're on the air. What are your thoughts about conviction? Oh, well, I'm just sitting here listening to you, and I've just got to say amen. Everything that you just said, it's so inspirational.

And the topic that you're talking about, about conviction, you're right. It never gets brought up. It's always about, you know, and Jesus can do this for you, and Jesus can do that for you. But then, you know, God tells us to examine ourselves. And when we examine ourselves and And then, you know, when Jesus died on the cross and he gave us the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is to convict us.

And to teach us, to help us to understand the Bible. And I think that the subject that you're talking about is. is so important and so powerful Uh I was talking to the screener and I wanted to say that When we first when you first started talking about the the the uh the Wine skins. God has never changed. God is always the same.

We as humans change. And we we try to change things to to make things better for us. that God has never changed. And this conviction that you felt like you're I'm sitting here listening to your your testimony. about the things that uh of your past and Uh I can't say that my past is like that, but the conviction that I feel about sin in my life that I have now, that I've had in my past.

To me, that's evidence of my salvation. That the Holy Spirit is able to convict me. And it's not just my conscience saying, you know, don't spit on the ground or whatever. But it's actually when Jesus says, you know, my sheep will hear my voice. And I really truly believe that it's the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin, saying, Hey, hey, hey, don't do this, it's not right, you know.

And he uses the scripture.

So thank you so much for bringing up this topic that you're bringing up, because a lot of people need to hear this. And You said everything that I wanted to say. And thank you for your happy program. Bless you. Thank you for sharing that, Tommy.

You know, Tommy brings up one other thing that's important. There is the role of conviction of sin for us as believers, not guilt, the guilt of condemnation. If we're God's children, we don't experience the guilt of condemnation, but we do experience the conviction of love. Let me give you the short version of the difference between conviction and condemnation. By the way, I get into this at length in my class on holiness.

You can study with me online. I have classes on holiness, Jewish roots, and principles of revival, all online. You can study along. It's very inexpensive. Go to askdrbrown.org and just look in the online bookstore for our online courses.

All of our monthly torchbearers, by the way, get free access to all of our online classes. But in my principles of holiness class, I talk about the difference between conviction and condemnation. Condemnation says you are guilty. Get away from me. Away with you You're guilty and condemned and lost, fate sealed, doom sealed.

Judges Galville comes down, sentenced to death. You're guilty away from me. Conviction says you're guilty, come near to me. You're guilty, you've sinned. Come near to me.

I want to bless you. I want to help you. I want to heal you. I want to deliver you. And what Tommy just said is important.

As believers, being convicted of sin shows us that we're walking closely with the Lord, that we love Him, and that He's working in our lives. It's illegitimate children who are not disciplined by the Father. Those who are really children will be disciplined, and it's a discipline of love, not to destroy us, but to help us and to bring us into holiness. 866-34Truth. We've got some fabulous quotes and accounts about conviction when we come back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are talking about conviction of sin on the broadcast today.

My first hour, which airs in different parts of the country, I had a spirited debate with Jerry Johnson, a dear brother in the Lord, on the ministry of Charles Finney. You can listen to that later by going to our website, askdrbrown.org. Click on the line of fire. And by early evening, that's always available both hours for full listening. Anything you miss in this hour, you can catch online as well.

Number to call to weigh in with your thoughts on conviction. Is this just old-fashioned guilt-training, bad sinner? Terrible sinner. You're going to hell. You're going to burn, burn, burn.

I feel guilty. And now just hang your head down all the way, all the days of your life. Is that what we're talking about? Are we talking about something life-giving that the Holy Spirit does to pierce to the depths of our being, to expose the guilt of our sins so that we can turn for mercy and be saved? 866-34-TRUTH.

My premise is simple. Much of the superficiality in the church today is due to superficial preaching, superficial conviction, therefore superficial conversion. Ah. I'm just looking through my book, A Time for Holy Fire, in the chapter on conviction. Uh list listen to what Spurgeon said.

A spiritual experience which is thoroughly flavoured with a deep and bitter sense of sin is of great value to him that hath it. It is terrible in the drinking, but it is most wholesome in the bowels and in the whole of the afterlife. Possibly much of the flimsy piety of the present day arises from the ease with which men attend to peace and joy in these evangelistic days. We would not judge modern converts, but we certainly prefer that form of spiritual exercise which leads the soul by the way of the weeping cross and makes it see its blackness before assuring it that it is clean every whit. Too many think lightly of sin, Spurgeon said, and therefore think lightly of the Savior.

He who has stood before his God, convicted and condemned, and with the rope around his neck, is the man to weep for joy when he is pardoned, to hate the evil which has been forgiven him, and to live to the honor of the Redeemer by whose blood he has been. cleansed. One more quote, Robert Murray McShane. These are all found in my book, Time for a Holy Fire, Preparing the Way for Divine Visitation. He relates these accounts from the 1839 revival in Dundee, Scotland.

I have also in some instances heard individuals cry aloud as if they had been pierced through with a dart. These solemn scenes were witnessed under the preaching of different ministers, and sometimes occurred under the most tender gospel invitations. On one occasion, for instance, when the minister was speaking tenderly on the words, He is altogether lovely, almost every sentence was responded to by cries of the bitterest agony. At such times I have seen persons so overcome that they could not walk or stand alone.

So here talking about how beautiful and lovely Jesus is, people are convicted because of the guilt of their sin, weeping. Breaking and getting radically saved. No, you don't have to weep and break to get radically saved, but I'll tell you, deep conviction paves the way for radical, lasting conversion. David in Homeworth, Ohio, thanks for calling the line of fire. doctor Brown, really appreciate those quotes.

I really do believe that we need a deep conviction of the Holy Ghost. I've been preaching. for over 22 years. And I still cry on a consistent basis of God's mercy to reach down and save me and call me to preach his gospel. And I think there's far too many strangers.

Preachers and ministers that are preaching the true message, but because they're not preaching it with the heart of God and the compassion of God. They're hardening the hearts of the people. I can walk in Walmart sometimes and just ready to go in a corner and weep seeing the lostness of humanity. And I think we need to be prepared by the Holy Ghost to be broken. I believe hot tears not only mount heart hearts of the people we preach to, but also mount hearts.

We need to let God show us where He's taking us from and where He's taking us to. And I think, and I've seen it time and time again, as I've preached on the streets, I would go up and hug a homosexual, and I preached at Ohio State for seven or eight years. and tell them the truth of God's word. He would mock the other preachers. But when I would go up to preach, he would mock me.

Because he knew that I loved him because there was Christ in me reaching out to him. We need to preach the truth, God's love, conviction, wrath judgment, but mercy and love and compassion at the same time. And only God can give us the grace to do it. We need to realize we need him more than we need anything else in this world. And David, David, what you're really emphasizing, it's something I've often said, we can't give what we don't have.

So when our hearts are broken, we can minister in a way that breaks the hearts of others. From the depth of our pain for a lost human race, they will feel the pain of their lostness and find salvation in Jesus. Hey, David, keep it up. Thank you, sir, for the great example. Or Shirley in Atlanta, thanks for calling the line of fire.

Doctor Ream. Yes, you're on the air, Shirley. Yes, thank you.

Okay, I want to just say that um The ministry is certainly important, and I think that there's a standardized ministry that should happen every Sunday. And that E is the preaching of the b of death, burial and and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Because if it's not a consistent preaching of that. and people lose their weight. When I got born again, it was in a hotel room downtown at Lancer.

Um Trying to get this woman off my back who kept saying, You've got to go with me.

So I went with her. And as I was telling the the screener. I went in one way and I came out. Like, who was that I left behind? Because I was desperate for him.

And I was also telling the screener, I I put it in this context. When you're fifteen years old, you're sixteen, I first bored him when I was fifteen years old. And and to me he was my everything. And so God is no less than that. God wants, you know, everything about us.

He wants us, he wants us to be desperate for him.

So I was desperate. I didn't know I was desperate until I heard the message. And I thought, well, God, what am I doing out here? Where am I going? I was going nowhere.

So I was desperate for God and He just filled me over with His Holy Spirit. Yeah. Yeah, and Shirley, that is conversion. That's new birth. Not everyone will experience it the same way, but like you said, when you left, you're wondering who is it you left behind there?

You've got the old person and the new person. And that's the work that the Holy Spirit does to prepare us. Shirley, thank you for that testimony. That's the work that the Holy Spirit does to bring us to the end of ourselves. One thing that has really helped me through the years is to read accounts of the Holy Spirit moving.

Yes, I've been in some amazing meetings, and again, some lasting for months, some lasting for years in terms of what God was doing with intensity. And my own life has been radically impacted by the work of the Spirit. But it's helped me through the years to read accounts that have stirred me, to read accounts that call me deeper, to read accounts that give me a vision of what God can do, because there's so much more than what we've experienced individually, what God's done through history, what he's doing around the world.

So the resources that we put together this week, I think, will really help you, stir you, encourage you. And we've reduced the price quite radically to get them into your hands as best as possible.

So let me just take a moment. It's my book, Time for Holy Fire. I've been reading quotes from that from the Conviction chapter, preparing the way, excuse me, for divine visitation, the Revival Answer book, which tells the difference between true and false revival. My MP3 series, It's Time to Rock the Boat, six hours on MP3 and a free CD, our Religious Freedoms Under Fire, all for $30. Postage paid.

Call us at 1-800-278-9978. 1-800-278-9978. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are focusing on a very important ministry of the Holy Spirit, a foundational ministry of the Holy Spirit, but a ministry of the Holy Spirit that we are. Often don't hear about today, or we often don't see in action, namely the ministry of conviction.

The Holy Spirit convicting people of their sin. The Holy Spirit showing us our guilt before God and then drawing us to Him for salvation. Not pushing us away, but drawing us to Him so that we can be born again. My premise very simply this that the superficiality in much of our Christian culture is due to superficial conversions, and that ties in with superficial conviction or no conviction. Instead, we just respond often to a message of how to have a bigger and better life in Jesus.

Jesus came so I could be a bigger and better me. It's all about me. And he came for my success so that my goals and dreams could be realized. As opposed to he came because of the guilt of my sin and your sin that would condemn us forever from his sight. And he offers us mercy and a brand new life so that we can fulfill his plan and his purpose.

86634Truth, Michael Brown, thank you for joining us. 866-3487-884. Online, ask drbrown.org. Click on the line of fire for lots of resources relevant to the program today. One of the books that we're featuring this week is the most important book I've written on revival called The Time for Holy Fire, Preparing the Way for Divine Visitation.

It's part of a resource package this week. Let me read some quotes from this. This is actually quoting from Me? I've read a bunch of quotes of the first half hour from some other leaders in the past. Let me share some things I wrote here.

By the way, the first hour of broadcasting, which airs in different parts of the country, so 2 to 3 Eastern Standard Time, I had a wonderful, spirited debate with a dear brother, Jerry Johnson, on his new DVD, Beware of False Prophets, The Case Against Charles G. Finney, where I categorically differed with him on his take on Finney while not agreeing with all of Finney's theology. You can listen to that later on today by going to askdrbrown.org. Click on a line of fire. I think it's a program you don't want to miss.

Okay. Here's some of what I wrote in the Holy Fire book. If anything indicates the shallowness of our modern message and the superficiality of many of our conversions, it is this painfully obvious lack of conviction. hearts have grown so hard and preaching has become so soft. Two young men murder their parents and then go out for ice cream.

Pedophiles from organizations to promote adult sex pedophiles form organizations to promote adult sex with children. Abortion doctors put in long, grueling days to generate big bucks by slaughtering the unborn. Little kids watch gory mutilation movies and get bored. And all the while, in the deepest moral crisis our nation has ever known, so many of our preachers entertain. Who can imagine what will happen when the spirit punctures this armor of insensitivity and stabs through the shield of callousness?

Who can fathom the depth of anguish many of the unsaved will experience when their muddled consciences are finally roused? What will happen when they face God and their sins in this world? It will be an unforgettable scene. And the radical change that will be wrought in their lives will not be quickly forgotten either. Oh, for revival conviction.

And then I say this, after an account about people coming under conviction, hearing about the beauty of Jesus. Beautiful Jesus. What convicting power there is in the love of God. It was a revelation of His goodness and my badness that set me free from shooting drugs in 1971, and I've been free indeed. There is grace available without measure.

Evangelists, go and proclaim liberty to the captives. Prophets, declare the shattering word of the Lord. Pastors, get to the heart of your people. Convict, convert, console. Expose, exhort, equip.

Reveal, revive, refresh. Don't draw back from the truth. Make the saints firm and the sinners squirm. Build up the foundation of the meek, and tear down the stronghold of the proud. Comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

Minister the message of God in a manner worthy of his name preach the gospel, my friend. It is an awesome and glorious task. Once again I hear heaven's call. Want it. prophetic voices for a deaf generation.

wanted.

Sober watchman for blind people. Wanted. Preachers who convict. Are you hearing the call, friend? Are you hearing the call?

Take the message deeper. Let it begin with it getting deeper in my life, in your life, as we come under conviction. We can bring conviction by the Spirit to a lost-dying world. Back with your calls right here. Paint to work.

God of light, hear our cry, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

The conviction of the Holy Spirit. Ooh, the Holy Spirit getting underneath the oh, underneath every excuse, underneath all of the superficial stuff we put up, and down to the core of our being. Oh, and you can't get away from it. You can't run from it. The only thing you can do is run to the cross and ask for mercy.

The repentance that comes out of that is extraordinary. 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7884 online, askdrbrown.org. You know, as we talk about conviction today here on the line of fire, Uh I have had things in my life through the years, probably like you, that maybe a minor thing or just a little habit or something that doesn't seem that serious and we sorry, Lord, sorry, and it kind of like happens a lot. I shouldn't, oh, bad attitude. Got to be more careful.

Sorry, Lord. And it seems to stay there. It's almost like a little fly. You swatted away and then it comes back. But then there are things where God really nails you.

And by the way, I'm not excusing the little. I'm just saying that sometimes it's like that. And then God nails you with something. Oh, you're overwhelmed. And it's like an arrow pierced your heart.

You've recognized that you've sinned against God and you see the sheer wickedness of your actions. Other people may not see them as that wicked, but you do. And you agonize before God. The repentance that's come out of that, the different seasons, the few times I've had a deep, deep working of God that intense in my life has brought radical repentance that like burn the thing out of my life for months or years or for good. That's the power of the gospel.

That's the fruit of the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. And it's something that is really lacking in our day. Charles in Atlanta, thanks for calling the line of fire. Yes, thank you, Dr. Brown.

I feel like in my own life that I'm kind of a victim of something too in reference to the church and all, and that is Um You know, I feel like it's a knowledge about a subject. It's like an education course. Knowledge about the truth. You know, I've memorized scriptures, I've done all kinds of things like that, and Um And And all I'm trying to say is I hear the gospel preached. I've been to different churches, a lot of them.

I was a member of church for a long time and But there's no real abiding sense of conviction when you hear the words. you know and And I've studied the the Bible, I've studied revivals, I studied a lot about it. And I know that when, you know, the disciples preached Peter, when he preached to Cornelius, you know. He preached the gospel and then immediately says the Spirit fell on them. The Holy Spirit fell on those that were hearing.

And I know that the Bible also says that it's not by the will of man. you know, that that people are saved, it's by the will of God.

So It it has to be with the combination of two things. The the truth Watch the Holy Spirit falling on people when the truth is preached. And if they pervert the truth into a a gospel of self-serving this like you're talking about. because the preachers want to build big churches and you know, they're they're so seeker friendly today You know, they may be afraid of offending people, but there is an offense to the cross that the Bible teaches. Maybe they're just trying to make an end run around that offense of the cross so they won't so they can get more people to come in and and make a a profession of faith based on knowledge about a subject.

And the Holy Spirit is like left out of it completely because they won't preach A message that the Holy Spirit can respond to and actually come and. You know, and do what he does, which is save people. It's not their truth. It's the spirit in reference to the relationship to that. What I want to ask you is where is that happening?

Where can a a person go to find a man that when he preaches, the Holy Ghost falls on people? Thankfully, God is moving all over the world, and people are getting wonderfully born again and saved. And I don't know the motivation of everyone preaching why they preach what they do. Are they just trying to fill pews? Are they trying to avoid the offense of the cross?

Or is it maybe. They have a different understanding, or they may see something I don't and be lacking in other areas where I have strength, but this much I know, Charles. It's happening. uh very very infrequently It's happening for the most part here and there. as opposed to being the norm.

And as you're saying, it should drive us to our knees saying, God, where is the convicting power of your spirit? And yes, it is joined together with preaching the truth. We have a response to make, but it must be joined together with preaching the truth. What I'd say is, if you don't see it happening in your own church, your own fellowship, the places where you attend, Just pray, God, anoint my brother, anoint my sister, anoint those who preach, anoint them and minister. Fill them with your spirit.

Grip hold of them in such a way that their words carry weight and people are changed. And we understand as you're ministering to the flock, ministering to believers, that that's not the goal, is every week to bring everyone under intense conviction. But in particular to the lost, in particular to the backslidden, and particularly to the compromised, that message must come. And when it does come, it will bring change. And hopefully, Charles, this will be something happening so frequently all over America that we won't have to ask where it is because we'll be bumping into it everywhere.

But again, it's a great need. It's a great need in the body today. One of the greatest indications that we need a fresh move of revival, that we need awakening. Kirby in Charlotte, thanks for calling the line of fire. Yes, good afternoon, Dr.

Brown. Thank you for taking my call. This program today is so on point. I mean even when you were sharing at the beginning I could feel the Holy Spirit just dealing with my heart. Like you you know I was raised in New York.

I got saved February of 1993. And I remember in my bedroom, um, just the Holy Spirit just convicting me so hard, it was a Friday night. And I just fell on my knees and wept right there. I didn't even have a bed. I I had a mattress on the floor and I just wept.

And just ask God, you know, I wasn't born and raised in a church, and I just asked God, I say, God, if you come into my heart. You know, I'll change my life around. And now I live in Charlotte. I'm a pastor of a new church. We just started, we just planted a church in January of this year.

Things are going great. And I just wanted to say, you know, one of the things that I've noticed for years, I was an assistant pastor in Virginia Beach for a long time, been in ministry for years now. And two things. One is I hear a lot of preaching, I've heard a lot of preaching, where there's so much preaching on grace. And you know, I want to say this correctly.

I don't want to say it wrong. We certainly need grace. I need grace. Um but I've heard pastors in the past year So much on the grace of God. And there's no balancing of okay, grace gives you the ability to do what's right, grace gives you the ability to turn from sin.

But it's so much. Oh, it's grace. Oh, if you're struggling with this. Oh, if you're in this lifestyle, God forgives you. Oh, God loves you.

Oh, it'll be okay. And there's not all preachers, and certainly not all pastors, maybe not even most pastors, but I've heard it enough to where, like I said, there's so much of this grace message. Where's the balance? You know, people, Jesus didn't just love people in the Bible. I mean, one instance, he told an individual, go and sin no more, lest something worse happen to you.

So there needs to be a balance. And then also, I'll just say this real quickly. I know that some years ago, I read a book by John Bevere. It was called Drawing Near. And one of the things in the book that truly changed my life and allowing the Holy Spirit, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, to deal with me and to convict me, was he read a scripture in Proverbs.

I can't remember exactly where it's at, but it says, The satisfied soul loathes the honeycomb. And he broke down that scripture about how that, you know, there are times in the believer's life where when we're so satisfied with so many other things and we fill our lives with so many other things, the internet, the TV, the this, the that, people, work, whatever, that we don't give the Holy Spirit room to convict. And I remember when I read that book, I was actually on the twenty one day fast and Sir. When I mean the it was like it was a it was a new a new life, new life into my heart. The Holy Spirit, I was seeing things, ways I was treating my wife, my kids, like I hadn't seen in a long time.

And I was so broken. And I think one of the direct results was because I did turn off the television. I did just, you know, I'm not talking about being legalistic, but I'm just saying, giving the Holy Spirit room, sometimes we need to just. Tune things out so that our soul isn't so satisfied that when the Holy Spirit does want to, you know, minister to us and convict us, we'll hear. Thank you for your show, man.

It's been such a blessing, and we're Standing with you, sir, and everything you're doing. Hey, Kirby, tell you what, since you're local in Charlotte, the resource package that we're making available this week, I just want to send you this to someone to your ministry work there, and then let us know where you are so we can work together for the city here. But stay on hold, give folks their contact info, and I want to mail this out, book and CD, and some other things to you. Keep holding the banner high, my brother. Thank you.

All right. Stay on hold there. All right. I'm going to be back with your calls, Luke, Nelson, Maurice. Hang on.

I'm going to get to as many as I can. In my book, It's Time to Rock the Boat, we've got a six-hour class on CD where I teach on that theme. It's Time to Rock the Boat. Part of the resource package this week. There's a chapter called When the Holy Spirit Comes.

And I note when Peter, filled with the Spirit and separated to God, preached his message of repentance and judgment, the people cried out, Brothers, what shall we do? Acts 2.37. A.T. Robertson explains that the rare Greek verb used in Acts 2.37 for cut to the heart means to pierce, to sting sharply, to stun, to smite, just as a horse would dent and scrape the ground with its hooves. The sermon went home.

They felt the sting of Peter's words, compunction, oh. We needed friends. And look, when you really love Jesus, don't you want to shut off the outside things and just spend time with the one your soul loves? We'll be back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Oswald Chambers said this, never object to the intense sensitiveness of the Holy Spirit in you when he is educating you down to the scruple.

and never discard a conviction. If it is important enough for the Holy Spirit to have brought it to your mind, that is the thing he is detecting. Andrew Fuller said, if the cause be removed, the effects will cease. If the spring be purified, the waters will be healed and the barren ground become productive. That's what happens when the Holy Spirit does a deep work in our lives.

Again, I have said my premise for this hour, for this broadcast, for much of what I preached and taught for decades, is that much of the superficiality in the church today is due to superficial conversions, which are due to superficial preaching, superficial work of conviction, often little or no conviction. I'm not saying that people aren't saved. I'm asking the question, how saved? How deep is the salvation? And in many cases, are people even saved at all if there's no evidence of a change in life?

866-34-TRUTH. Luke in Des Moines, Iowa. Des Moines, Iowa.

Sorry about that. Thanks for holding. Welcome to the line of fire. Oh, thanks, Dr. Brown.

Appreciate the topic that you are dealing with today. Uh just uh two points. Um F first, uh, in Romans chapter eight, Uh Uh scripture is clear that Uh there's a that the work of the Holy Spirit Yes, too. I'm losing the words out of my head right now, but it tells us: oh, he that when it's the Holy Spirit who bears with our spirit. That we are the children of God.

That the work of God. in wounding our conscience has a purpose. and with bringing us to a sense of helplessness has a purpose And that purpose is that When He has wounded our Conscience to the right degree that he will then come And he will bring comfort. And I think what happens is when especially as Americans. who are uncomfortable watching other people in pain.

We want to come and shortcut that process, that work of God. That's true. And we want to alleviate that. And what we do is we end up shortcutting the work of the Holy Spirit, and people are prematurely encouraged. They need encouragement, and they need the love of their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

To come alongside them, but there also has to be that time and that place to allow that conviction to develop fully before. We come and and And the second thing is, I think what has happened in the church is good things. have been used to shortcut that. I'm a I'm a Southern Baptist pastor. And we're known for our altar calls and the sinner's prayer.

See him. Unfortunately, those good things get used as the means to shortcut conviction. Yeah, in other words, if I can just get someone to walk down the aisle in a certain way at a certain time, then basically it's done. And I have no issue with altar calls.

Some say Finney started them and they blame him on it. I think they go before Finney, but I look at Acts 2 as kind of an altar call, repent and be immersed. Respond, Jesus saying, follow me. And yet, if the heart is not prepared properly, we can give someone the impression, come forward, pray this little prayer, and then we make the terrible mistake of telling them it's done. You know, that's exactly right.

They don't even know what they prayed. They're not even serious about it. They're looking at their watch, wondering, when do I get out of here? And we tell them, now you're saved.

Now you have eternal life. And no matter what happens, you know, you're... Yeah, so it's, I agree with you, Luke. Yeah, and what happens, I mean, the process for a lot, I don't want to judge all my fellow brothers and sisters and something about this convention, but when someone comes forward, They say they want to be saved. They pray the prayer with them, set him down, have him fill out a card.

Then, immediately after that, the pastor gets up and says, We've got a new fellow believer. Right. And everyone say hallelujah because now they're in the kingdom, but there's been no time. Time to allow that person to spend the Lord to deal with their sins. Would they even be willing to get baptized right then and there?

And then the fruit of the changed life. And then, of course, we're going to put the stats up next week. We had 14 people saved, but then you come to the service next week, and it's the same number. Hey, Luke, listen, I'm short on time, but I'm with you, man. We are preaching to one another's choirs here.

May the Lord help us to go deeper and bring others deeper. Amen and amen. Nelson and Concord, we're a little short on time, so please dive right in. Hi, this hi. How are you doing, Dr.

Brown? Very well, thanks, Nelson. Good. I just wanted to quote uh from The Radical Cross by A. W.

Toza.

So you think uh the problem with convictions that we don't we're not proclaiming um Christ and the cross. And Aleutoza says that the old cross is a symbol of death. the man in Roman times who took up the cross and started down the road had already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was not going to have it ended.

The course. we're going to have it ended. The cross made no compromise. It struck cruel and And when it had finished its work, The man was no more. And I think that a lot of But we don't have real convictions.

Yeah. People's lives, but we've got to realize we need to die, and we need to preach a gospel where people die.