A Firsthand Perspective on Being Intersex; and Confronting Unrighteousness in Target Stores and the NCAA

So what does it mean to be intersex? to be born one way and have your chromosomes going in a different way. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I want to encourage you to give me and my guests your best ear today.

We're going to be talking about some very sensitive. difficult issues. The kind of things that you're not used to hearing on Christian radio, we're going to do so with compassion, we're going to do so with wisdom, we're going to do so with truth. This is Michael Brown, welcome to the broadcast, 866-348-7867. Yeah, I think it's a good idea.

In a few minutes, I'm going to be bringing on a special guest, Leanne Simon. And Leanne will tell us a very personal story, a very unique story. And by coming on the air, Leanne is neither agreeing nor disagreeing with my positions and other issues, nor am I necessarily affirming or disaffirming what Leanne will share. We're going to take one step at a time. A pastor said to me a couple of years ago, You know, Mike, when our generation hears the word homosexuality, We think an issue.

When the younger generation hears the word homosexuality, They think. A person.

Well In the same way, When we hear the word transgender, many of us think an issue Others think a person. And in each of these cases we are dealing with both issues and people. We're dealing with issues like one I just read about, where a boy. Teenage boy in high school is shocked. to be disrobing next to a girl who's disrobing in His Locker room?

The school just changed their policy and said if the girl identifies as a boy, she can use the boy's locker room and. They've actually taken this case to court. That violated his privacy. And his thing was out, oh cool, there's a naked girl and he no, this violated his privacy. I would say it violated hers.

As well.

So you have here both an issue, but then you have people. involved. And when God laid on my heart in 2004, that these were issues that I needed to address. He immediately gave me a heart for the people involved. I didn't go looking for this.

This is not my own background. I don't come out of homosexuality. I can't relate to being attracted to the same sex. I did not have gender identity, confusion of any kind. Yet, my heart has been broken for people.

As much as I'm called a bigoted, homophobe, and transphobe, I care deeply about people. Whenever I write on these issues and what I've referred to as trans sanity, I write on them because there are issues affecting our culture. Here's a weightlifting competition the other day. for folks New Zealand, Australia, that part of the world. And the the winner of the women's competition is a man who who was a weightlifter as a male and now smoked the female competition.

And some of them were saying, that's, you know, what's she so proud about? You know, she's not equal, and she's not she, she's he.

Well, whenever I write about these things, I always say: look, there are some people who are intersex, meaning they have a biological or chromosomal abnormality. and we need to look at them like anyone else with an abnormality or defect and work with them to find wholeness. and be compassionate in in terms of whatever unique struggle they have. But that is then separate from someone who is biologically chromosomally male and believes themselves to be female or both or neither. Those are separate categories.

We were contacted by Leanne Simon. And Leon said, Hey, friends have encouraged me to reach out to you. Here's my story. And Leanne's given lectures publicly and things like that. Uh, out about her story, tells her story.

I said, Okay, why don't you come on the air and let's talk?

So, you're gonna hear about a category. You're about an individual. Sure about a life that's very different from what you and I might be used to. It perhaps constitutes A little bit under 1% of the population. We'll be right back.

You don't want to go anywhere. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. I want to concentrate on speaking with my guest in the minutes ahead, but if you have a question, the phone lines will be open, 866-348-7884. I may take some. Listener questions as well.

My guest, Leanne Simon. In her Personal description says sixty-something Christian housewife. intersects Advocate. If you've read articles where I talk about what I've referred to as trans sanity, meaning things in the culture because of transgender activism that I feel are very wrong, again, I always start the articles, as I just mentioned in the introduction to the broadcast, by saying we're not talking about people who are intersex. who have a biological or chromosomal abnormality because of which they don't fit neatly into male or female categories.

And we have compassion on those who are biologically chromosomally male or female, but internally feel differently. And what identifies transgender, we have compassion on them, but we don't turn the whole world upside down based on their own perceptions.

Well, that's led to discussion via email with Leanne Simon. And Leanne said, sure, glad to come on the air and talk with us.

So, Leanne, thanks so much for taking time to join us on the line of fire today. Thank you. Leanne, if you don't mind, before we just talk about your own life, your own history. the journey you've been on. Uh Simply stated How would you define the difference between intersex and transgender?

Where do they overlap? Where are their differences?

Well ordinarily there's no difference Uh well Ordinarily a male is going to be X and Y and have a penis. And Oh, I have a normal male puberty and be fertile But there are people who For instance, they're x, y and still female, the rest of the variables. or XX and have a penis. And this is without any medical intervention.

So, in other words, someone could be born. with female chromosomes and yet male Genitalia that something like that does happen, that would be considered intersects, correct? That's correct. One of the more common Well, intersex conditions are fairly rare, but one of the more common among them is something called complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. That's xy.

With testes in the abdomen. But since the body can't do anything with the male hormones, it converts them to female hormones. You end up with A normal or typical female puberty. without a period.

So they're infertile. But they could go through their entire lives without knowing that they're XY. Got it. In terms of your understanding, those that would have some type of biological or chromosomal abnormality. What percentage of the population is that?

Yeah.

Some people like to say that it's the same percentage as Redheads, but I think that's a little misleading in that if you go to parts of Scotland There are quite a few redheads and There are places elsewhere in the world that have very few. The most Or then. highest figure I've heard is in the between one percent and two percent. A lot depends on who you put in the category and who you don't. For instance, if you only have one sex chromosome, it's going to be an X.

You'll be female with Turner syndrome. And The question is whether that's intersex or not. It could be missing a why or could be. could be missing X. The results the same.

All right, let's just say. that roughly If we want to put this into most strict categories, let's just say roughly. 1% of the population, which is still one. and a hundred people. We might not know about it, because these things are not necessarily going to be shouted from the rooftops.

And people will deal with things privately more than publicly. Hence, we wouldn't be aware that it's even one in a hundred. Obviously, for you, it's not one in a hundred, it's one. This is your own life. And forgive me for just putting some terms out and coldly before we talk personally.

But you wrote a young adult novel, Confessions of a Teenage Hermaphrodite. What's hermaphrodite? Hermaphrodite Another term that people argue over, but the current medical dictionaries say that it's.

Someone Who has both ovarian and testicular tissue. Mythologically, it was someone who was capable of reproducing as either male or female, and that doesn't exist. Mm-hmm. And what's the difference between that and androgynous? Um A lot of people androgynous But refers to someone who's between in your presentation.

So that you look at 'em and you're not quite sure whether they're male or female. But I'm thinking in terms of clothes and the way they talk and hold themselves. That's what I think. Right, so that would be different than hermaphrodite, which would be biological. Right.

Got it. Okay. And look, I'm just putting these things out here because many are confused. And then... For many, they don't know the difference between, say, your situation and someone who's a drag queen.

It's like what we're talking, you know, two different worlds here.

Okay, so. Leanne, you're here to talk about your life. and to talk about intersex, not to be here. As an uh LGBT advocate on broader issues. I'm not, you may be, you may not be.

I'm not making any assumption.

Okay, if you want to weigh in on any of those things, that's fine. Or biblical interpretation, that's fine. But I'm not assuming anything. I'm not assuming you agree with me or disagree with me on scripture or anything. We just want to understand your own situation and your own journey.

So, as far as who you are, physically, chromosomally, what makes you intersex? All right. I mentioned that someone with only a single Sex Chrome. Are you there? Hello?

All right, we have lost you. For moment. I'll tell you what, Howard, you've got a Backup number to try to call our guest on.

So we just um just lost her there for a moment. But what you're about to hear is going to be different. Yeah, but make sure that It's not on the line there.

Okay. What you're about to hear is different than what you're used to. But not everyone. fits in biologically, chromosomally, into a normal male or female pattern. Maybe one in a hundred.

have exceptions. And the question is, How does someone like that find wholeness? How does someone like that find out who they really are? I'm making a I, this is me, I'm making a clear distinction between this. and Bruce Janner.

Caitlin Jenner.

Okay, here is a biological chromosomal male. Fully functioning male who believes is a female, and is seeking to live as a female to a certain extent. I'm making a distinction there. There are many transgender intersex advocates that say, no, all part of a larger complex. I'm differing with that.

All right, so we're talking about an actual Abnormality. We're here you can be biologically male. but have a chromosomal issue. which causes you to not behave, respond. as a normal male.

or you could be a biological female. And then chromosomally you have differences. because of which you cannot live a normal life. and fit in Now, in the past, The doctor's normal practice was this, all right? What doctors would normally do?

If there was a child born with ambiguous genitalia. And the doctors found it easier to make that child into a female than a male, and then found out. many of the kids they operated on. Actually, Actually They got it wrong. In other words, they just made the assumption we can just change the kit outwardly.

found out that they were very wrong to the great detriment of the child.

So regardless How you feel about what we're talking about. I hope that there will be a sense of compassion. for those who struggle. And then for those for whom it's entirely mental, emotional, there's nothing biological or chromosomal, but they still struggle. We want as God's people.

Not just to say what's wrong, but to say, let's help you find wholeness. Let's walk with you. in a place where you can find wholeness. and whatever help you need. Let it be that we stand by with you.

to help get that help. as opposed to shun you and push you away. It's one thing if someone has an agenda that they're trying to push on a congregation or they're trying to sow confusion or influence people. It's another thing where someone is struggling. and in the midst of their struggle.

They say, hey, would you stand with me as I seek wholeness? That's what we need to do as God's people. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, we have reconnected with Leanne Simon.

So, Leanne. Glad we're back on the phone here together.

So, you were in the middle of explaining. just your own unique situation. and uh born biologically male. but with a chromosomal issue.

So back to you. Hopefully we won't lose you this time. All right. Yeah, I had some Cells that are chromosomally female, some that are chromosomally male. And that led to gonads that were a mix or at least a dysgenetic Um variety.

And so At the age of twenty two, I had the development of a preteen. The endocrinologist offered a choice between testosterone and estrogen. And said that I wouldn't have any trouble. if I just switched to living as a girl. And so I did that and went on estrogen.

I don't know. And what had your life been like up to that? How did you see yourself? You obviously had a boy's name. You were considered a a boy by other boys.

How did you feel about yourself and how did you fit in? I had a gender neutral name, actually. Not that it matters much. Oh. But was that intentionally or it just happened like that?

You know, I don't know. I know my father didn't My father didn't know anything about my condition. My mother was a nurse. and in general kept me away from the doctors. I was the smallest of my classmates until fifth grade.

And I was frail, enough so that my parents worried about losing me.

So they didn't worry too much about on cross-gender behavior. And how did you perceive yourself?

Well, I I knew that I really wasn't either one. I mean, I at times I wanted desperately to be a boy. Like, you know, my brother was tall and strong and could play sports and do all of those things. And Yet I always wanted to be a wife and a mother. And when I was in fifth grade, had my first serious crush on a boy.

which of course didn't go over very well. Um But I got this feeling that if I prayed hard enough, if I just. tried really, really hard that God would make me a boy. And My feeling was that It wasn't. And it was my fault because I wasn't trying hard enough.

Um and I I just didn't know I didn't know where to go or what to do to become one, and I knew I wasn't. And I sort of felt guilty about wanting to have babies. And Leanne, was it common? Because we're talking now decades back, I'm in my early 60s, you're 60-ish. Um decades back Wasn't it a fairly common practice if a doctor was confronted With a baby born, say with ambiguous or dual genitalia, that the easiest thing for them was just to.

Make the child into a A female biologically or physically I should say And then they realized that that was not. That was not the best course of action. In other words, they're. It was kind of a cut and dry way of doing things without perhaps recognizing some of the complexities of what was going on. Were you confronted with any of that growing up, or did your mother have a a bit different perspective?

Well, as I said, my mother kept me away from the doctors as much as possible.

So I didn't see one. Um, from the time I was seven or eight years old until I had an emergency appendectomy in college. Got it. But yes, in the early 1950s they would It was standard practice to take an intersex child who. had ambiguous genitals and surgically operate to make them look female.

And the theory was that there was a window of opportunity before the child was two years old to. change the genitals, change their gender identity by making sure the parents had no doubt about what gender the child was. And obviously it doesn't work because if that child was was actually male... but with ambiguous genitalia, then they did that child a terrible disservice.

So I understand how the best intentions could fall far short. But you were now told, as you're growing and developing, That You could a doctor saying you could go either way.

So you went the way of estrogen. How did you start to feel about yourself then?

Well, I was I was greatly surprised at how people treated me after that because Um there we look at Boys can be brutally mean for to anyone who's different. I I suppose girls can too, but Okay.

Okay. One of the things that I had done To try to solve the problem was I thought if I got away from my family, and just had time to figure out who I was and what I was going to do, things would be fine.

So I left to support a family for a boystorm. And if you're not physically male, if the boy's arm isn't the best idea. Mm-hmm. So, um I got bullied. I there was a boy who proved that he could do whatever he wanted to me.

at any time. You know, he didn't rate me, but there was always that hint of it. Um So When I start on estrogen and I could um start living as a girl. Then all bullying went away and my emotional issues started to clear up. Um My hormone levels had been Very low.

So with estrogen, Um With low hormone levels, you have a depression. What? As soon as I got on the estrogen, that cleared up. Hold on. I wasn't all that excited about Getting feminine sex development, either.

I liked my body the way it was, but Yeah. spend your entire life with, you know, the hormones. All right, so at at this at this stage, you have you are you are married. And you are a Christian. Do you feel uh as much as a human being in a broken world can be do you feel whole in your identity?

Um Let's let's State that a different way. Please. This is what the Lord uses to keep me coming back to the cross. Um if I woke up And I was twenty one again and completely male or completely female. I would probably go off and wander away.

and do a bunch of foolish things. But I've been encouraged to embrace the Lord's. vision for my life, and this is what it is.

So Oh but I'm broken. But I'm also in Jesus, so All right. The way you've articulated that, friends. This is an important conversation. Leanne is not alone.

and having these very real. struggles. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are here. Here with Rand Simon.

Lean, I received an email yesterday. from an individual I won't use the name, identifies as Irene. and was writing me to thank me. for standing up against what I've referred to as trans sanity. and a lot of things happening in the culture which I believe are very, very wrong.

Negative effects of transgender activism. And Irene wanted to explain that Irene was born male. Not intersex, born male. transition to female Walked away from God. lived like that for years.

God started to call Irene back. Irene's married to a man. God started to call Irene back. Uh Irene is ashamed of what happened. What she did feels that it was wrong and it was sin, but here's where she is now seeking to follow the Lord.

and is so grieved by transgender activism in the culture. when uh i set things up before you came on I said that uh I was making clear that this was not a statement for or against activism or that you and I were in agreement on on any point. I want people to fully understand that we're talking about human beings. And that these are struggles that, I mean, I don't relate to as a heterosexual male. I don't relate to or understand.

So at any point that we're not getting to something that you feel is important to communicate to my listening audience, please just say, hey, I'd like to talk about this. But when in your heart of hearts before the Lord, Um You look at yourself as having a condition. that has made you more dependent on the Lord. Do you see any difference between that And Aspects of transgender activism, or do you think, hey, we just need to be sensitive to people in all their struggles? I think we need to be sensitive to people in all of their struggles and not.

prioritize Fam. Um My younger Sibling. is transgender. And Um I know how much of a struggle it's been. For them.

and just trying to survive to be into their 60s. And there aren't any easy answers to it. You know, I I think sometimes about what Jesus said. He said that Moses allowed you to divorce for any reason whatsoever, but. That's not the way that marriage is supposed to end.

And so there's a difference sometimes between the best and the right and what's lawful or allowed. And I think when you start making blanket statements about any one particular person situation, you just need to be careful. If they don't know Jesus, it doesn't matter what they're into. If they do, then, you know, they've got the Holy Spirit maybe. A little bit of sit-down and talk with them would help.

Got it. All right. And again, I want you to speak as freely as you can. And I know that you are. You're not a political advocate as much as a personal advocate.

saying these are human beings with issues and struggles and the church needs to Understand. Obviously. It's much easier. when things fit in normal categories. God making human beings male and female, and that's how the world goes around.

There wouldn't be a human race if we weren't made. Male and female, with all that implies, with reproduction and family and nurturing and biological and emotional differences and social differences, and yet, Not everyone fits. in those categories. All right, we'll have more time to talk to Helianne's heart, what she would say. to the church.

in terms of where we could do better. And what would be an ideal scenario if someone identifies as transgender but is biologically chromosomally male or female? What is God's best? It's an idea we can shoot for. Oh, God of burning cleansing.

Flame. Say And the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. I'm speaking with Leanne Simon, who identifies as a 60-something Christian housewife intersex advocate. And by the way, just looking at bio, fascinating bio, entrepreneur, advocate, author. Explorer, including flying solo. in an uh Aranka champ from Sunset Strip in Marlborough, Ohio to Waxahatchee.

Texas and Yeah, some very interesting background here. Leanne, do you look at gender distinctions, the gender binary as some type of constricting enemy? Or do you recognize that's the norm for the vast majority of the human race? Uh Well, it's certainly the norm for the vast majority of the human race. I wish that It were a little easier for boys to be nurturing and for girls to.

play sports and things like that. I think we draw our categories too narrowly at times. And intersex doesn't really have much to do with Most of the intersect people that I've met, and I've met hundreds. Um Live ordinary lives. as either men or women.

And There's you know, there's a minority that don't want to call themselves men or women that want a a third category or such. Um That's that's fine with me and the Bible. has a third category. Me meaning eunuchs, someone that would be in incapable of normal. sexual activity.

Um Yeah, I I mean, I think I would accept Except that definition in terms of bachelor's intercourse or something. Certainly. Um And it's clear that the promise of the gospel is open to Oh, everyone, whether male, female, barren, woman, eunuch, or anything else. Mm-hmm. What I generally try to stress to people in the church is first of all If God gives you an intersex baby, They're fine the way they are.

You don't need to change their bodies. Cosmetically? And there's no reason I mean, you can raise him as a boy. without doing surgery or as a girl without doing surgery. Give them time to Show what gender God gave them and to participate in any decisions regarding permanent alterations to their body.

And The other thing that I would like to see is a lot more transparency. Um My husband and I recently moved from Georgia to Tennessee. When my Church in Georgia. ran ran across my Blog and heard some of the the public presentations I'd given, they said, you know, you really should be. More transparent with the entire congregation.

A previous church had asked me never to speak to anybody in the church about it. And the church went now doesn't really know because I don't want people to know me. as intersex. I want them to know me as me. Mm-hmm.

Um Yeah. who's a Christian who who wants to talk to him about Jesus instead of about my body. Mm-hmm. And I also would talk to them about things like look. Mm-hmm.

Tennessee wanted to pass a law that said that Any vital record that wasn't based on the initial sex designation on the original birth certificate was void. Which would void Every record that I've got. Probably including The deed of the house. And and it's it's You know, I understand that That there's a culture war going on. It's just that.

I keep getting hit from both sides. Right, right. I understand.

So the both sides would be. Uh on the one hand you absolutely identify with those struggling with intersex and transgender issues. On the other hand, you recognize where there can be abuses. With Transgender activism. For example, here, there's a case now that's going to court.

Todd Starnes reports a teenage boy was told by his principal that he had to, quote, tolerate undressing in front of a female student and to make it as natural as possible. This is a lawsuit now in Pennsylvania Federal District Court. Here is a boy that's being called Joel Doe. He was standing in his underwear inside a locker room at Boratown Area High School preparing to change for phys ed class. He suddenly realized there was a member of the opposite sex changing with him in the locker room who was at the time wearing nothing but shorts and a bra.

and the boy with several of his classmates reported the incident to the assistant principal. And he indicated that legality was up in the air, but that students who mentally identify with the opposite sex could choose the locker room and bathroom to choose. The physical sex did not matter. To me, that's utterly abusive. Regardless of what's going on in that kid's life, you don't now impose that on everyone else.

And especially, it could simply be some emotional. confusion, that's what I'm getting hit with constantly. And therefore, speaking up against these issues or a recent weightlifting competition where a man who identifies as a woman beat all the women, and the women are saying this is not fair. Here they've worked their whole lives to get to this point, and now a biological male defeats them.

Well, no surprise. He's bigger and stronger. I get grieved over that. But at the same time, I realize when I speak out about those things, I'm probably hurting somebody like you. Or for example, when we say, look, If Bruce Jenner wants to change his birth certificate to say he was born female, I have an issue with that because he's not female.

He was a healthy, reproductive father and male for years.

However, In a case like yours, where your birth certificate didn't tell the whole story. Do we have a category for that? It's the either-or thing that makes it very difficult. And obviously, this has been, again, your life. You're not one in 100.

This is your life. And what would you say to me, Leon? I don't know how much of my stuff you've read, but you were encouraged to contact me. You're just being totally candid with me. I've got no concern with what you say to me on my radio show.

All right? But. You look at someone like me, if you've read any of my stuff, do you say this guy's a monster, he's doing more harm than good, or he's well-intended, but he's ignorant. How do you view someone like me? Yeah, um I think That People are too ready today to be offended.

So what I would ask of you is to remember that Blessed are the peacemakers.

So In a case like the locker room. There are things that they could do that would protect the rights of both of the students. For instance, have You know, dead. I if if I had a daughter in public school. I'm not sure I'd want undressing in front of anyone.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, as as far as the bathrooms go, I don't see too much of a problem because there's stalls in there and most people don't flash their genitals when they're in there. Um you know, if if you tell a transgender student they can't use the bathroom that agrees with their gender identity. then they have to go into either a remote possibly remote general neutral bathroom or they have to go in to a bathroom where they're going to get bullied.

So there there's It's a sensitive issue. They're all I think are some decent solutions, but neither side seems to be interested in finding common ground. Yeah, but no, here's where the yeah I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, I think you as a Christian ought to be meeting on finding common ground. All right.

Well, first I appreciate your measured tone. You're not reactionary. You're not speaking out of a life of hurt and bitterness and lashing out at people. And I hope listeners recognize that you're speaking first and foremost. as a Christian.

Uh I know some people blast me for having you on the air and some people blast you for coming on my show. And obviously we both have to not even think twice about that because of the larger issues. But let me lay something out and then we'll come back on the other side of the break and hear from you. And any key things that are on your heart that you haven't gotten to share, we'll cover. Number one, I think there is an all-out assault on gender.

I've documented for years in gay activist literature. And I think that plays into the gender confusion. And when you have Facebook giving you 50 different ways to choose your gender, and that's not enough.

Now it's filling the blank. To me, that's madness. That's cultural madness that we're participating in. That's one thing. Second thing is if someone does have a handicap.

And let's just say we have to look at it like that. And they have to use a handicapped bathroom and that's an option presented, well, fine. That's what it's there for. Or a single stall that faculty have to use, that's the one and only place they can go.

Well, if that's offered to a student also, then take it. But instead, the trans activists say no, no, no. Johnny identifies as Jane and Jane's going to use the girl's bathroom, doesn't matter who gets uncomfortable or who has a problem with it. That to me is turning society upside down in an unhealthy way.

So I'm all for accommodating someone in the midst of their struggle. Don't turn the whole world upside down or deny the fundamentals because of that. All right, back to you when we return. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, let me start here, Leanne. I know people.

who are former transgender. They used to have what was called gender identity disorder and now called gender dysphoria. They no longer didn't. All the ones that I know, with God's help, Found transformation, and all of them renounce sex change.

Some of them had sex change surgery, and nothing they can do about it now. But they all renounce that all regret the changes. Um But I don't know anyone that's former intersex. I don't think by definition you could be former intersex, but you can be. former transgender.

Now I know you talked about your sister and that situation. I don't know her situation. I'm not meddling there. But if if I was in your shoes, it would concern me. that now the door has just been opened, to some people saying you know that that their gender is is completely malleable They refer to gender blender.

You throw everything in and comes out, you know, just different. Or they they it varies from day to day to day. If I were you, I'd be crying out saying, no, no, I'm talking about something very different. I'm talking about something in the way that I'm actually made, not just in my perceptions, which can easily shift from day to day.

Well, let me give you um a hypothetical intercepts case. Let's say that you have a ten-year-old child who has ambiguous genitals. And has been living as a girl. And The birth certificate says mail because for the first three months they thought that you should raise. The child is boring.

So the child's in school, nobody knows. But then they pass a law that says that you gotta check birth certificates.

So your child is going to have to either Use the girls' room. Or have people wondering why They're using the nurses station. and you're going to have to reveal the child's medical story. Yeah.

to the teachers. And All in the name of football player in a dress.

So there has to be a lot of things. There has to be a lot of to be some way around it. Right, well that's why that's why I personally believe. that to include L G B T I Q and and intersects Being the I there, I think it hurts you and does you a disservice. Because I do believe that if there has been a misdiagnosis.

Right. that that the again you so you have ambiguous genitals a child born and it's just decided okay This is... This is Susie, not Sam. but then growing up, Sam knows now I am Sam. I really am Sam.

And then chromosomes turns out. Demonstrate that this is Sam.

Well, there's an error. On the birth certificate, that should be fixed to me that has no connection whatsoever. to a biological and chromosomal male who's convinced he's a female. and once his birth certificate changed. And to me, that's what ends up hurting.

the church's ability to better minister To people in your shoes. There's no excuse. We have to do better, period. We have to be more sensitive to those that don't fit in the normal categories, period. It's that simple.

And Jesus certainly has a heart for the marginalized. And to me, it's a shame. that folks in your shoes might find it More at home in a gay and lesbian church. Then in a straight church. because we don't relate to the marginalized correctly.

To me, that's terrible. That's again a reason I'm having you on the air, was for greater sensitivity for the body of Christ to these issues. But that's where I would make the third distinction. You might be surprised, actually. The church that my husband and I were members of in.

George is now. part of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. which is very conservative reforms. Yeah.

Um And They We're accepting. But Like you. The line is drawn between me and my sister. That I have a biological Difference And she is in wilful disobedience to God.

So Yeah. I all I can say is. We need to, as Christians, be tender hearted and also stand for the truth. And sometimes it's very easy to To point at someone who's different and assume that the difference is. Entirely Willful disobedience rather than something that they're struggling with that they need help.

Oh, and and to be clear, again, I I know nothing about your sister except for what you just told me in these in these last minutes. But I I always look at someone here I have an older cousin. who has transitioned from male to female, probably in his 70s now. I can't imagine the trauma he went through. We're not in interaction, so I don't know more of his story.

I'd love to hear more. He obviously looks at me a certain way because of my posture, and I can understand that. I can't imagine what agony he lived with. I can't imagine, and he's not a follower of Jesus either, but I can't imagine the struggles he's gone through. I can't imagine the price he paid when he started to wear a dress.

I think lost a job over, if I'm correct, where he'd been for many, many years. I don't know the effect it's had on this larger family.

So my default attitude is compassion. And pain for that individual thinking they must be going through struggles, I can't imagine.

Now there's a line they could cross in how they live, or I could say it's willful disobedience, but for many, I think it's deep confusion. And I want to try to help them from the inside out. And then there is a line someone could cross that would be willful disobedience. But that's my default value. And Leanne.

Let's agree. that that we need to lean on Jesus with all of our hearts, and we need to have his heart of extraordinary love for every human being on the planet, especially those who don't fit normal categories. while not tearing those categories down. I think we can agree on that. Yes?

Yeah.

Yes, I think so. All right. Is there, we just got 30 seconds, is there a website you would recommend people go to to find out more about what is meant by intersex? There are quite a few, but if you direct into my website, then I'll post something that gives like a little directory of the other sites. All right, and your website is Lean Simon.com.

LeanneSimon.com.

So that's spelled L I A N N E Simon. LeanneSimon.com.

Once more, L-I-A-N-N-E-Simon.com. LeanneSimon.com.

Hey. Thank you for sharing your story with us. I appreciate it. Thanks for reaching out to me in the first place.

Well, thanks for having me on. You bet. All right, friends. Take care. Take care.

The website again. Lean Simon.com. Christian. Writing about intersex. I hope you found this conversation helpful, enlightening, at the very least.

I hope it stirred your heart for greater compassion. for those who do struggle. either biologically, chromosomally, emotionally, whatever it might be. Let us be here to help people find wholeness in Jesus. Friends, please be praying.

Got a major debate with an Orthodox Jewish rabbi tomorrow night. You'll be able to watch it live online. We post it on Twitter and Facebook, all the info. My bottom line, Jesus came to heal the brokenhearted. can be broken in many other ways.

Well, should we boycott or not? Is that part of what the church is called to do? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, you talk about...

Two interesting conversations. Back to back, we are about to have two. In the last hour, I spoke with Leanne. Simon For the full hour, basically from well, just about the full hour. a Christian intersex individual She is married to her husband for many years.

strongly committed to following the Lord. And was born biologically male, but Not fully chromosomally male with aspects that were female. It ended up Finding identity as female I've lived against female ever since. but not fitting neatly into other categories because of a chromosomal abnormality. On the one hand The whole reason for having me on the show was to talk honestly about people who are intersex, so 1% or less of the population.

of a biological chromosomal abnormality. At the same time, as Leanne knows, and I made very clear, on the show. I wholeheartedly oppose transgender activism. the confusion it brings, and how it turns the world Upside down. because of the perceptions, the needs of someone struggling with gender confusion.

I mentioned in a recent article Two women in Canada that were ordered to leave a homeless shelter. Why? Because there was a biological male who identified as a female. sharing a room with them. sharing facilities with them.

Talking about a biological male. The women understandably, were uncomfortable. And imagine if you're a homeless shelter, you haven't had the best life. Maybe been abused. Maybe you've been raped.

Maybe you've been taken advantage of in one way or another.

Now you're trying to have a place of refuge from the storm. You're in a homeless shelter. And there you're being asked to share the facilities. With a man, a biological male. when they made an issue of it, they were told they had to leave.

These are the things that grieve me.

So when target stores A couple of years ago, Said, we are now getting rid of gender distinctions in our toy aisles. When they said that they're not going to have boys' toys and girls' toys because that offended Some people who felt that those restrict categories and the gender distinctions and all of that.

Well, that was step one. of to me cultural madness. Because you have 1% or less of the percent population struggling in a certain area, let us be compassionate and understanding of their struggles while at the same time not throwing out everything else and declaring war on gender, making gender the enemy. And no, not every boy is going to want to play with guns, not every girl is going to want to play with dolls, but there are generalizations, and that's what the aisle was for about the generalizations. And then Target goes one step further.

And says, All locker rooms, all changing rooms, I should say, and bathrooms are gender neutral, meaning however you perceive yourself, that's where you go. And no one can stop you. And there have been examples now of a man who identifies as a woman, but who enjoys looking at other women. trying to photograph people, record them and target changing room. It's actually happened already, these kinds of abuses.

And Target basically said, well, you know, in many of our Many of our facilities, there's a handicap bathroom. And obviously it's going to be small or single stall and the other bathrooms potentially larger. But we have we have that and and if people struggle In other words, if heterosexuals and those who are male or female struggle with the possibility of transgender birth, they can use that one. No, no, no, no. You don't turn everything upside down because the one that's struggling.

And you don't open the door for a heterosexual predator. a heterosexual predator, not a transgender person, a heterosexual predator to take advantage of these things.

So American Family Association launched a boycott against Target, which has been very effective. And now we're joined by Ed Battagliano of the American Family Association to tell us about stage two of the boycott. Talk about two different conversations the same way, just worked out like that. Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. In the first hour, we focused on compassion for those who struggle. compassion for those who don't fit neatly into are male-female categories, someone intersects, say, biologically male.

but with some abnormal chromosomes and struggling for life, finding identity, are they male or are they female? We talked about the need for compassion even for someone who's biologically or chromosomally male. who identifies as female. And so they have some emotional Disconnect some interior disconnect, internal disconnect. We want to help them compassionately, but we do not turn the world upside down.

If you have a child in a school, this is my standard illustration, sorry if I bore you with it, a blind child in a school, one child saying 1,200 students that's blind, and you don't have a school for the blind in the area, well you do your best to help that child accommodate their needs, but you don't force all the children in the school to close their eyes and read Braille.

Well, when it comes to transgender activism, now we're looking at the issues. We've talked about the people.

Now we're looking at the issues. When you talk about the issues, this is something where you turn society upside down.

So you get rid of boys' toys and girls' toys because that puts things in gender categories and you make everything gender neutral. Why not have a whole store gender neutral? Instead of men's clothes, women's clothes, men's underwear, women's underwear, you know, men's bathing suits, women's, why not have the whole store just everything is gender neutral. Obviously, the world does not work like that. And yet that's the direction in which Target has been going, and the American Family Association has led the way with a very effective boycott.

And now to join me on the air is... Ed Vitagliano, Executive Vice President with the American Family Association, and we're going to talk about phase two. of the boycott of target. Ed, welcome to the line of fire. Michael, it's my pleasure and honor to be with you and your listeners.

Well, sir, first, what's the motivation? And calling for a boycott, is this just Christian bullying or trying to force our views on someone? What's the motivation for it?

Well, our it's like our boycott Target pledge says. Until Target makes the safety of women and children a priority, I will shop elsewhere.

So our Our goal is the safety of women and children, and I would also add. that uh we think that this Policy is not only dangerous on the part of target, but misguided because our our suspicion is, and having talked to people hundreds who have emailed us. There are a lot of people who are just don't feel Um like They are comfortable with a member of the opposite sex in such an intimate setting. Uh it's not simply that uh they may feel like they're in danger. They just just feel uncomfortable about being in that setting with members of the opposite sex.

So on the one hand, this opens the door potentially to some type of heterosexual predator. Not a transgender. person or someone confused about identity, but it generally opens the door to to uh Someone who's a sexual predator because you can't tell the person not to come in because, hey, how do they identify? It's not just that. It's someone saying, look, this is clearly a biological male in the ladies' room.

And even if he's not a predator, we still feel uncomfortable. That's the other side to it. Ed, have there actually been documented cases of abuse of this target policy? Yeah, we tried to keep up with on our website at AFA.net, by the way, there's the big banner there on the top if they want to. Read more about the target boycott.

We have examples on the bottom of the page. Uh and uh You know, the same month that we initiated the boycott, we're coming up on the one-year anniversary, April 20th. There was an incident. And so these are happening. And as you pointed out, Um This is an opening for sexual predators.

We, from the very outset, and I know this to be a fact because I I wrote the first press release. uh for the ministry We want to make sure that the general audience, the general population, understands we are not saying that transgender people are a threat. It's that target in their efforts to make transgender people feel comfortable using the restroom Their policy removes obstacles for sexual predators. And you know, this is you know, we we all grew up, Michael. I I've interviewed you face to face.

I know you're probably in my age bracket somewhere, at least close to it. Um we grew up in a world where this wasn't questioned. And you know, you had men's room, you had women's rooms, and Changing areas, and if you saw a man going in the woman's restroom.

Somebody would stop them. Sir, that's the woman's restroom. You've made a mistake. When you remove that obstacle You have made it easier for a sexual predator to gain access to their victims. And we listen, we've talked to and taken emails from Ladies who don't even necessarily agree with much of what AFA does.

who said, this is a bridge too far. If I'm in an enclosed space, And a man walks in I don't care what his reasons are. I've got nowhere to run. And we certainly don't want to wait until the first screens happen inside a bathroom before we do something. Yeah, and and look, there are also many women who've suffered abuse at the hands of men.

And the one place at least they know where there's relative safety when they're doing something private is a bathroom. And it always amazes me that they're not considered. That the large number of women who've been abused, here, the women who've been sexually abused or harassed over their lives massively outnumbers. those who identify as transgender. And yet their needs are not considered either.

All right, so Ed, phase one of the boycott, what's happened so far? How many of you have signed up? How effective has it been?

Well, we are at we got to the first million in one week, which I think indicates I mean, it's kind of a kind of a perfect storm. I think it indicated Just How visceral the reaction was to Target's announcement that this was their policy, letting men go into women's restroom and changing areas. Um so that was so fast, it made our heads spin. In the intervening months, we have reached nearly another half million.

So we're at 1.466, somewhere there, six, seven. Our second phase is to try to reach 1.5 million. By the one-year anniversary, April 20th. At that point, Tim Weilman, the President of AFA, is going to ask. target for a second meeting.

He met in May with target officials. senior officials. And so we want to revisit them once we have reached that one point five million number, because another 500,000 customers and really families um is a is a big chunk of people. And so we're hoping to get Target to change its policy And to go back to sex Separate. gender separate bathrooms and changing areas.

And then for transgender customers, or anybody who doesn't feel like they want to use The bathroom with multiple people have a single occupancy, gender-neutral. Bathroom. That transgender people can use. We think that's a reasonable accommodation, as you said. The number of women who have been abused and suffered abuse, it's not a small number.

So other customers don't feel like they want to be in the same bathrooms with members of the opposite sex. We think this is a good accommodation we hope Target will agree. What if they say, well, what about changing areas? Or are we just left out? Is is that you know the there may be some way to uh create a gender neutral changing area.

Is that what you mean, a changing area? Yeah, 'cause that that would come up.

Someone would say, Okay, that's the bathrooms, but what about the changing rooms? 'Cause that's that's even more possibility of seeing someone in a in a compromised position or you know, one of the abusive cases was a guy who identified as a woman but trying to videotape other women in the changing room. Right. Yeah, we want those kept separate as well. Target initially said, well, we're going to invest, I think it was $20 billion.

to make sure all of our stores have this gender neutral single occupancy bathroom. Uh i you know i in a kind of bizarre fashion they said So, anyone who is not comfortable with a member of the opposite sex can use this bathroom as if they're the one who has to do with the business. Right, the 99% that fit in normal categories can use this one bathroom, and the 1% that don't fit in normal categories, they can use the other two. It's kind of a bizarre response. But listen, if they're willing to invest that kind of money, they can make a.

gender neutral changing area. I I don't I don't think you know the the percentage Of people in this country who are transgendered is just a fraction of 1%. The the chances that you're going to have Multiple transgendered people in the same store Shopping, who have to use the restroom or the changing area at the same time, I think is just so infinitesimally small. As to not even be on the table in the debate. Have a single occupancy, gender-neutral bathroom and changing area.

because that can be a lot smaller, maybe even a single stall. Yeah, right, if it's that important. Right, if it's that important to target, let them show it, make that investment. That investment would be far more frugal than all the business they've lost. Hey, Ed, do you just have about two, three more minutes to stay on with us?

Sure, absolutely. All right, stay right there. We come back on the other side of the break. I want to find out how effective the boycott's been so far. That's one.

Two, what happened in that first meeting with Target? And three, what you can do now. We'll be right back. Shake the name. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey, thanks for joining us, friends. I'm speaking with Ed Vitagliano.

Excuse me, Executive Vice President, American Family Association.

So, Ed, first question. How effective has the target boycott been? You reach these extraordinary numbers very quickly. Numbers continue to grow. Has it had a tangible effect on their business?

Yes, I think, Michael, it has. And now I do want to say from the outset here that normally affecting a large corporation's bottom line is not our primary goal because it's often very Very difficult to do that. We usually uh launch a boycott so we can talk about the issue. But in this particular case, I It's my personal opinion that since The boycott started, we have seen a tremendous effect. The company has lost.

fifteen billion dollars in just the Fourth quarter report alone. their profits plunged forty three percent Their stock prices plummeted more than thirteen percent to a new two-year low. When you look at their their stock, it was at eighty four when we launched the boycott, it is now at fifty five So I think that from that perspective, it has been very successful. Frankly, I'm surprised that Brian Cornell, the CEO, has not been fired by now because the performance of the company has been so poor in this year. Grant granted that some retailers are having a hard time, but a lot of retailers aren't, and Target's earnings have been way below the the average of these retailers.

So we think that it's having an effect. And what happened when you had your first meeting, the the one meeting that you had with target leadership?

Okay. Yeah, this is kind of laughable. Tim Weilman and his son Walker Wilman, who's assistant to the president, met with some target executives. And Tim talked about our concerns They said at this point, we're not going to change our policy. And Tim asked them, he said, why did you make this change?

And the one of the ladies who was in the meeting with him said, Well, Our customer base demanded it. Demanded the change in policy, which I think is laughable. I think what probably happened either. Uh a couple of Customers who were transgendered might have mentioned it. Probably more likely the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender group inside of Target recommended this change.

I just can't believe that the majority of their customers demanded the change in policy It would essentially allow men into women's restrooms and changing areas.

So that was what happened in the meeting, but they made it clear that they were not. They were very respectful. I will say that. I mean, it was a very respectful meeting. And but they said at this point, we're not changing our policy.

Got it. All right, so what can folks do now as you go into phase two?

Well, we are we're excited we're so close to one point five million. That's what we're asking people to do. Excuse me, if they go to AFA dot net, again, there's a big banner at the at the top. We're asking people to sign the boycott target pledge And if they have to uh then uh try to encourage family members or friends, their Sunday school classes, neighbors, whatever, to also sign it because we want to hit this one point five million mark. uh before april twentieth.

And then the next thing, I guess we'll have a phase three and shoot for $2 million. Maybe before the end of the year.

So we're hoping to. really uh encourage uh the the target leadership to consider, as you pointed out, Michael, consider the feelings And the beliefs of the vast majority of their customers. for whom this is a foolish and even dangerous policy. Got it. All clear.

And having gotten to know Tim better, spoken for AFA some months back. And I know your heart for the Lord. I know your heart for righteousness. And you live day and night with one part of the world caricaturing this as hateful. But this is just common sense.

This is just caring about families. And this is saying, hey, don't declare war on gender. It's a losing battle.

So friends, go to AFA.net if you haven't signed the Target petition. I know many of you did immediately as I did, but if you haven't signed it yet, do so so they can have more leverage when they go speak with Target. Hey, thank you for calling. God bless you. Keep up the good work.

Yeah, my pleasure. Dr. Brown, thank you for having me on the show. My joy. All right.

friends Uh Just, we're going to switch subjects here completely. Um as I took a break a moment ago, when we had a few minutes, well, a few seconds of downtime between segments, I noticed for the first time a major headline. And we've got some of our team gearing up for my debate with an Orthodox Jewish rabbi tomorrow night and not standing by feeding me some of these headlines. Headlines everywhere, terror at UK Parliaments, a British Parliament. A uh a cop stabbed.

Pedestrians mowed down. Prime Minister apparently 40 yards from the attack. Um three killed. many injured And uh ISIS is celebrating this, saying it's blood for blood. Uh Don't know who if anyone has claimed responsibility yet.

what further details there are. I'm just looking at another headline here. Two attackers leave four dead, including a policeman, and 20 injured in London. Terrorists mowed down pedestrians before one color is shot attacking cops in UK Parliament grounds and the question were there two of them involved uh This is a very traumatic event, obviously. God be merciful to the families of those dead and help those injured.

And may God use this to wake up whoever, whatever needs to be wake awakened. in England. whatever degree that these types of things are lurking. Under the surface May we wake up. and be aware, not declare war on all immigrants, God forbid, not to clear war on all Muslims, God forbid.

But wake up to radical Islam. If that's what it is, wake up to The reality of that. 866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Oxford, North Carolina. Lynn, welcome to the line of fire.

Hello. Hello. Hi, Dr. Brown. Hey, go ahead.

I just had a comment to make talking about the target issue with the restrooms. I read a recent Franklin Graham post on his Facebook account And he was speaking of where four terrorists had gone in a hospital in Afghanistan. And had killed multiple people, you know, injured many more, and the way they did it. Was they put on white lab coats. They appeared to be hospital employees.

and they went in with the motive of killing and destroying. And my my comment is, how are the the uh bathrooms at Target really any different from that hospital in Afghanistan. If you have men who say that, you know, I am associating myself as a woman, and they're coming into the women's bathroom, Yeah. not every man that says he's a woman and comes in, you know, they're not all innocent.

So I see some parallels between the the hospital in Afghanistan and even our restroom here. Yeah, yeah, so so not not saying that we're not s comparing transgenders to terrorists. Lynn is not comparing transgenders to terrorists. She's saying people got into a hospital by dressing a certain way to appear to be doctors and to blow the place up. heterosexual predators.

are using transgender bathroom laws to go into a bathroom to be peeping toms or worse. Yeah, that's sad but true. That's one of the reasons. that we protest these things. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Johnny, can you grab clip number eight? for us. I wanted to leave in this segment with it, but... This is social justice, the musical part for it. It's a parody.

of Under the Sea all about political correctness getting a lot of attention on YouTube. many many views so let's listen Come BPC Come B P C Things are so splendid when you're offended. Take it from me. We're fighting for progress, can't you see? Silencing all who might disagree.

So respectfully, be a cry bully, come BPC. PC. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's got to be radically PC. This is Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the broadcast. 866-348-7884 is the number to call. In a moment, I am going to be joined by Casey Maddox. To talk about the bracket of shame, to talk about some things with the NCAA. that may surprise you.

The NCA standing against bigotry, standing for tolerance, you might be a little bit surprised with that. And let me just tell you, these days... or college campuses. our college campuses, are some of the most intolerant free speech restricting places in the world. or I should say in our society at the least.

And same thing in England and some other countries. where if you're not politically correct, You can't say it. If you don't fit in certain liberal categories, you've got no place. It is extreme It is the height of intolerance. It is everything but open-minded and diverse, and yet it is everywhere on our campuses in growing measure across America And Now, one of the big issues is white privilege.

White Privilege and everything has to change. There are schools that won't read some of the ancient poets because they're all white men. Uh Clip number 10, listen to what Professor Jordan Peterson, courageous professor in Canada, psychology professor, listen to him talking March 11th at the Ottawa Public Library about white Privilege. I think the idea of white privilege is absolutely reprehensible. And it's not because white people aren't privileged.

Okay. You know, we have all sorts of privileges, and most people have privileges of all sorts, and you should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them, I would say. The the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime. Regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group, there is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that. It's absolutely abhorrent.

The idea of collectively held guilt at the level of the individual as a legal or philosophical principle is dangerous. It's precisely the sort of danger that people who are really looking for trouble. would push.

So, and just a cursory glance at 20th-century history should teach anyone who wants to know exactly how. how unacceptable that is. Mm. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, oh.

Speaking of campus madness. Theology students at the University of Glasgow are given trigger warnings. Bible students are warned you may find the crucifixion too upsetting We've got to be concerned about the mental health of vulnerable students.

So, trigger warnings when we're talking about the crucifixion, this. this might trigger something you might have a hard time with it so we want to warn you in advance Yeah.

Okay, ready for some campus madness? Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Shame. The world of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for. joining us today on the line of fire. We serve as your voice of moral sanity and spiritual clarity in the midst of a society and chaos in the church. all too often in compromise. I'm joined now by Casey Maddox.

He serves as senior counsel and the director of the Center for Academic Freedom with the Alliance Defending Freedom, ADF, and he's written an article on the bracket of shame. Casey, welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me on. First, why is there a need for a center for academic freedom?

After all, isn't that what our campuses stand for? Academic intellectual freedom, faculty, students? Isn't that what happens on all of our campuses?

Well, that certainly should be the case. Of course, what we find on many university campuses today is that students are not free, that the First Amendment is not followed and many universities don't seem to To understand that the First Amendment actually imposes obligations on them, and they have to make sure that. they're protecting students' First Amendment rights. And so We exist to try to keep the door open for the spread of the gospel on campus to make sure that all students actually are free to be able to speak their minds freely and that there is a true marketplace of ideas. And you've been litigating cases like this on campuses for years now with great success.

Could you give us an example of one or two? Oh, sure.

Well, yes, I have been advocating for these kinds of cases on campus for many years now. ADF has nearly four hundred victories of various kinds on university campuses from speech codes to speech zones. We have a one hundred percent record dealing with speech zones. We're Schools try to limit students to certain areas where they're allowed to speak and certain areas where they're not. And those are usually very limited areas.

We have one of those cases going on right now at a small school outside of Atlanta Georgia Gwen at college, where a school imposed on this student a speech zone and told them that. He was only free to speak in essentially what was just a few square feet of a huge university campus. And so he was not able to share the gospel anywhere other than basically one patio in his entire university campus. That's just not how the First Amendment works. And the fact that you've had over 400 of these cases indicates how pervasive this is on our campuses.

It really is. It's a true problem. Universities just Failing to teach students how the First Amendment works. And that's where it impacts everyone else. It's problematic enough.

when you hear about these individual stories and how it's preventing a student from being able to speak freely. The bigger impact though is the message that, that sends to every other student on that campus, that this is how the government works. And if the government wants to tell you where you can speak and when you can speak and what you can say, that that's a normal thing for the government to do. That's a really troubling lesson to be sending the next generation. And and What about the concept, well, no, you have freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences for what you say.

Doesn't that mean you really don't have freedom?

Well, that's right. Yeah.

Some schools will sort of resort to that idea and say, Well, you're welcome to say what you want to say, but we just can punish you and make sure that. Uh You know, you're uh, you even don't graduate.

So, one of the cases we have going on right now is. against Iowa State University, Iowa State had these speech codes that were were put in place. uh where they actually said that uh First Amendment protected expression. may be deemed harassment depending upon the circumstances. And of course, they were the ones who determined what the circumstances were.

So you just had no idea as a student, do I speak and find out what the punishment for my speech is later on? And they were telling students you had to agree to that policy, you had to sign compliance with that policy in order to be able to graduate from the school. All right, you focused in now in your article on the bracket of shame on the NCAA. First, why should we take special note? of the NCAA, say in light of HB2 in North Carolina and some of the actions of the NCAA, why might they especially be open to the charge of being hypocritical?

Well, that's you make a very good point because the NCAA, of course, has been very active in wanting to address political issues that they want to address.

So they want to talk about What's happened in North Carolina and HB2? They want to talk about. Um various political issues and step into those.

So, what we want to do here is to basically just shine a light on the fact that a lot of the same universities that that you're watching in the in March Madness. The Madness does not begin and end, unfortunately, on college campuses in March. It's a it's a persistent all year round First Amendment problem. And so if the NCA can point, can pick its own issues that it wants to talk about, we We can certainly point to how the First Amendment is actually being complied with or not complied with. on those public university campuses that are members of the NCAA.

All right, so what do you get into in your bracket of shame article? And by the way, for those not familiar with the NCAA, this is the College Athletic Association and a bracket in particular right now in what's called March Madness with the college basketball champions and you're in different brackets, different parts of the country, and then you have this kind of playoff system, hence the bracket of shame for those who missed the title there.

So what do you get into in that article?

So what we did with this article was, and this is in some ways a kind of lighthearted effort to address a very serious problem.

So We took the actual NCAA tournament bracket. And played it out as if this is how the bracket would play out if these schools that are the absolute worst for freedom of speech were the ones who advanced. And so what we ended up with, we have a final four in the bracket of shame of the University of Wisconsin, UCLA. Vanderbilt and Iowa State University. It's the final four in the bracket of shame, with the University of Wisconsin winning.

Wisconsin has had Uh Alliance defending freedom. Alone has sued the University of Wisconsin system about seven different times for various free speech violations. It's been a Uh We almost always have a case going on with the University of Wisconsin. Unreal. And so there's just a persistent problem there.

You know, throughout the bracket, there are major issues. One of the schools kind of in your listening area at UNC Wilmington. UNC Wilmington, of course, for many years Uh Word uh trying to violate the First Amendment rights. of Professor Mike Adams. And we handled that case and represented Mike Adams protecting his First Amendment rights against UNC Wilmington.

So there are a number of schools in the NCA tournament this year that have had a history of First Amendment problems. All right, so these are the ones that get to the top of the list. Casey, if you trace things back, How how long is this in the making or was this was this a sudden shift? Does this come right out of the 60s? Because you remember the free speech movement, Berkeley, and now you look at Berkeley and all of its intolerance towards other views.

How did we get here? Back in the sixties, you rightly point out, you had the free speech movement at Berkeley back in the sixties. And I think what happened was the students who were behind the free speech movement then moved into positions uh of power in academia. They went from being the students who were fighting against the man to becoming the man. becoming the people who are the ones that are making the decisions.

And yet in their minds, they continued to think. That they were the ones who were fighting against the man. It's just that the man became the five-person pro-life student group or the very small. Christian student organization. And they can they perceived of themselves though as continuing to fight against those groups, even though they were the ones with all the power now and all of the Levers of government and the responsibilities to make sure that the First Amendment was complied with.

So I think that's essentially what happened: the people who were fighting for free speech. became the people who were in power, and when they did, they uh suddenly uh started uh or or lost the passion to see free speech protected and instead wanted to make sure that their ideas were protected. If you've ever read Animal Farm, that's basically we just watch it in front of our eyes and hear the revolution against the establishment becomes the establishment. But I love your perception as if they're still fighting for their freedom, not realizing that they have become the oppressive force, the man.

So when these cases come before courts, you said you've had 100% success rate with free speech zone issues and massively high percentage on other free speech issues. What do the judges say? I mean, it seems a slam dunk in many of these cases. What are the judges say when these cases come before them? Very many of them are, and frankly, a lot of the schools will back down once they are.

actually receive a lawsuit. The difficulty is convincing students to stand up and defend their rights. to make sure that many of the issues are pretty well established. It's convincing students that it is It is right for them to make sure that violations of their rights on campus end. that they leave their campus more free than the than the campus that they found.

Um Because it's not just about them. It's about the other students that are around them that are learning. How the Constitution works, and unfortunately, learning very bad lessons about how the Constitution works.

So we encourage students that The reality is, you're going to graduate. Yes, this problem will be behind you in a year or two years after you graduate. But you want to make sure that you leave the school that you're attending in a place that's a better place than you found it. Got it. Yeah, and certainly an admirable goal.

And in the midst of this, we've just got a minute before the break. your mental emotional state in the midst of all this, do you feel like you're fighting an inevitable losing battle? Or do you feel there is some hope? No, I feel like there's quite a lot of hope. I think on the particularly on these issues, the First Amendment issues.

We can reach across and find people on the other side who can support us, who can understand the principle of the First Amendment. I think there's a lot of good It's fire we want, for fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. So I've been doing radio nine years. I have been doing live radio nine years daily. Talk live radio. for eight and three quarter years, I have been using this current time clock for The last six plus years And I read the clock wrong.

Tell the guest he's got a minute when he had ten seconds.

Well, I guess we're all human, huh? But you knew that before. I didn't have to tell you that. Hey, no, I saw the numbers correctly. I was just thinking there was another minute.

Why? I don't know why. Oh, I've got an excuse. I have an excuse. All right.

I have an excuse. The excuse is that I have a new mic stand. I do actually. I have a new mic stand that's an improvement for several reasons. And because of it, I have to look through it.

to see the normal numbers.

So even though the numbers were the same, That it felt different because I was looking through the mic stand. You say, but hang on, Mike. Isn't it the same time, even if you're looking through it? In other words, if it says one or two or three, isn't it the... Yeah, I know, but I was disoriented by that.

I was disoriented. Yeah, that's my excuse.

Okay, listen, listen. Uh would you remember to be in prayer? Tomorrow night. I am scheduled to debate an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, Rabbi Daniel Freitag, in Atlanta, Kennesaw State University. The question is, is Jesus the Jewish Messiah?

Now, this debate has been scheduled for a few months now, but it was with Asher Norman, who is an Orthodox Jewish lawyer and the author of a counter-missionary book. And what happened is that he got sick. In fact, someone's asking me here. Let's type it together. Uh he got sick.

Um How to drop out.

Now, we get the call Monday night. The debate's Thursday. It's been advertised, the Jewish community, leaders are going to be coming, we've been told, many coming to the event. There are some overflow rooms available if needed. And again, it's going to be live streamed.

In fact, Let me just... Let me just tell you the live stream address.

Well, I'll tell you what, if you just go to my Facebook page or my Twitter feed, you'll find we've posted it. All right? Live stream tomorrow night, 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, so Central 6, and work it out the rest of the country. All right.

So it's going to be live streamed, and God willing, we'll be able to put it up subsequently on YouTube or have it on DVDs. And uh problem is Ash Norman felt terrible, but doctor's orders, he couldn't do it. He'd been preparing all these weeks for it. Looking forward to it. I was looking forward to meeting him and engaging him in serious debate.

expecting a good serious debate. He can't make it.

Well, thankfully, another Orthodox Jewish leader in the community, the Atlantic community, himself, a scholarly man who's done counter-missionary work. He stepped forward and said that he would do it.

So I actually did some revising of my notes last night. I thought, well, he has shorter time. Let me kind of come at these notes fresh and some of my preparation for the debate and start afresh as he's starting afresh. And anyway, he stepped up to do it.

So that's tomorrow night. I'm not praying that I will shine as a debater. I'm not praying that I'll come out look, wow, Dr. Brown really did well. I want Jesus Yeshua to be exalted.

Oh, I want to do well. I want to do everything with excellence. I want to present the truth with excellence. I want to demolish wrong arguments with excellence. I want to be excellent in my demeanor and character as a worthy representative of the Messiah.

Absolutely. heartedly. At the same time, The focus is not who's a better debater. The focus is who is the Jewish Messiah? And that, to me, is the great, great issue.

We want to exalt Jesus Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel. We want people watching around the world to come to faith. We want those who are struggling to have their eyes open. We want those who are coming to Stand with the rabbi and support the rabbi to have their eyes open. We want people who are thinking, oh, this rabbi is going to destroy this Dr.

Brown character to realize, wow, this Dr. Brown character is actually giving some very strong arguments, and we need to look again at what the scriptures say. You say these debates work? Yeah, yeah, wonderfully. Wonderfully.

That's why Paul did it in the Bible and Apollos did it in the Bible. Read the book of Acts. We've seen great fruit over the years. We have seen people who came in completely skeptical, mocking our position, walk out shaken. I remember one friend saying that he brought A guy with him, Orthodox Jewish guy with him, another guy, just businessman with him, and others, just all their different stories.

And they came in on the side of the rabbi, different debates I've done, and left shaken. Shaken, yes. Uh One woman is now serving as a missionary to the poorest of the poor in Nigeria, living with the poorest of the poor, educating, teaching them. And the turning point, big turning point in her life came as she heard me debate a rabbi. And she was living as an Orthodox Jew at that point.

The general manager of the of the Carolina Panthers, Dave Gettelman. Jewish Believer in Jesus, his testimony was published in Decision Magazine last year. He came to a debate in New York City. And at that point, he had been going to a Messianic congregation, but had many questions. After the debate, these questions were answered, and he knew, he knew he could take the full plunge.

So we hear of things happening like this on a regular basis, and it strengthens believers. Jewish believers will be strengthened. They'll be encouraged to share their faith more and more boldly and without fear and without shame.

So pray, pray for God's grace. Pray for healing for Asher Norman that he'll make a speedy and quick recovery because he still wants to do a debate in the future. And we're talking about doing that. And pray for truth to triumph. Pray for light to shine.

Pray for Jesus Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel, to be exalted. We've got a special Thurly Jewish Thursday broadcast coming your way tomorrow. And then, God willing, on Friday, I want to give you a report on the debate, some highlights from the debate as well. But you can watch it, you can watch the debate. On the Kennesaw State University TV channel, KSU TV.

That is the school's TV channel. Again, I've posted this on our Ask Dr. Brown page. I've posted it on our Twitter feed. And I want to encourage you to partner with us.

to reach the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In fact, this month, as we're coming back from Israel at the beginning of the month and broadcast five nights straight live from Israel, we've wanted to sow into you in Jewish resources.

So when you become a torchbearer this month, help us do things like this debate. Help us partner together. to have the time and energy to focus on these things and to prepare the materials and to put out the videos and the books and to get these things out in Israel. And in the Jewish community worldwide, as you stand with us as a torchbearer, a dollar a day. or more, so $30 or more per month.

We will send you a new message, preaching message every month. give you 15% discount in our online bookstore, give you access free to some of our key online classes, video and audio, as well as send you a special newsletter every month, an insider newsletter with testimonies and updates on what's happening. But when you stand with us, when you stand with us, we've never done this before, we may never do it again. this month only. We're sending you free, the hardcover edition, you can't buy it, the hardcover edition of The Real Kosher Jesus.

Plus my Think It Through DVD filmed on location, Jesus Can't Be the Messiah live on the streets. And we refute that. And then live audio from Israel. All that is a thank you package when you become torch bearers.

So do it today. Stand with us, thelineoffire.org. My bottom line, I remain confident. Jesus is risen. The conclusion is guaranteed.

Mm-hmm.