The Book of Enoch and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus: An Interview with Dr. Michael Heiser

The Book of Enoch? The forgotten mission of Jesus? What's this all about? My guest, Dr. Michael Heiser, will sort it out right here.

It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, we are going to have a really fascinating eye-opening show today with my guest, Dr. Michael Heiser. He is the best-selling author of The Unseen Realm. He does the well, he heads up the academic department of Lagos Biblical Software and is a published Old Testament Semitic scholar, now the author of Reversing Hermon. Enoch The Watchers and the forgotten mission of Jesus Christ.

I do a lot of reading, friends. And this is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking books I have picked up in quite a while. And we're actually making it available through our ministry because of the importance of this book. Michael, welcome back to the line of fire. Thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you, Michael.

Now, this is just about hot off the press. It's just about to be released, reversing hairmohn. I want you to be able to speak with total freedom during the show.

So let's first dispel a few misconceptions, all right? Are you a monotheist or do you believe in many gods? I believe in that that the God of the Bible is a one unique being that there is none like him. Uh so there's There's no one like Yahweh. He is unique in his attributes.

He is alone. All clear. Do you believe that we should add the book of Enoch to the Bible and that it carries the same authority, say, as the book of Genesis or the Gospel of John? No, I just think Enoch was a book that as reversing Herman shows, was well known and read by Jews of the Second Temple period, including the New Testament writers. And they found it useful.

And it preserves some important things that Bleed into what the New Testament writers did write, but I don't think it needs to be considered canonical. All right, but a very important book that shaped a lot of the thinking of New Testament authors and explains a lot of verses and concepts there. And then, did Jesus die to save us from our sins? Or is that not his true mission? No, he of course died to save us from our sins.

It's just the point of the book is that. We tend to Kind of telescope or have tunnel vision when it comes to what the Messiah was supposed to do. The Messiah was certainly supposed to die a sacrificial substitutionary death. to save us from our sins, but Jewish expectation was a little wider than that. that what the Messiah did would also combat and reverse some other things as well.

Got it. And again, I asked you these questions so you can speak with total freedom and not risk being misunderstood. One of the most important things. That never happened. All right, well, on this show as well, we're used to controversy.

But I want to put those disclaimers out first because a lot of people they hear with certain biases, but This book is really going to open a lot of eyes. We just wanted to introduce a few things now. One of the most fascinating things in the book is you have a lengthy appendix where you give New Testament verses and then next to those verses, verses from the book of Enoch or other related ancient literature. And it's verse after verse after verse where you cannot deny that they were borrowing these thoughts or that these were things that were important to them. When we come back, let's start in Genesis 6.

Let's start about some misconceptions of Genesis 6. Who are the Nephilim? What about the Sethite theory? We'll do that quickly. What about ancient Babylonian background to Genesis 6?

And then, what about the Book of Enoch and the forgotten mission of Jesus? To get today's special offer, the book and the CD of this interview, go to thelineoffire.org. Mm-hmm. Yeah. God of burning, cleansing.

Flame send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us for a special one-hour interview with my guest, Dr. Michael Heiser. His new book, Reversing Hermon or Hermon, Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ.

Now, you may differ.

Some of what Dr. Heiser says, but he knows. That of which he speaks. He is a Biblical and Semitic scholar. He is not just getting this stuff off the Internet.

So, Michael, let's go very quickly through Genesis 6, the story of the Niphileim, and the way you and I understand it, and then what's wrong with the Sethite hypothesis.

Well, I think the short answer to what's wrong with the cephite hypothesis. is that it is completely divorced From the original context for Genesis six, one through four. In other words, The whole reason why Genesis six one through four is even in the Old Testament is completely lost And ignored if you take the Sephite view that the sons of God were just human mortals. And What I do in reversing Hermon, I mean I I did a little of this in Unseen Realm, obviously. But in this book, I wanted to sort of focus on it.

And Show how the book of Enoch actually preserves. This original context that turns out to come from Mesopotamia.

So I We can get into the nuts and bolts of that if you like, but I would just say to someone who holds the Cephey position, I understand why you do this because the other view might scare you. or this is what the church has taught for centuries upon centuries. But the problem is That recent research in cuneiform studies, Mesopotamian tablets, really published in 2010. have firmly established that there are Mesopotamian antecedents Counterparts. every element of Genesis six, one through four.

We now know why these four verses are in the Old Testament. and how the biblical writers read them and how we should read them. All right, so for those not familiar with this, of course, Genesis 6 speaks of the sons of God and the daughters of men. The sons of God took for themselves the daughters of men. They have offspring.

Then it speaks of the Niphilim, these giants, apparently later on we read about them in the conquest of Canaan, the Anakim and the Riphaim, who are descendants of the Niphilim, this race of giants.

So apparently many wiped out in the flood, but then the same thing happened subsequent to the flood. And we've understood it. We believe, when I say we, Dr. Heise and I, many others, believe the New Testament writers understood it as well, that these were fallen angels who somehow were able to take on human form and procreate. The Sethite hypothesis says, no, these were the sons of Seth.

They're the sons of God, the godly line. And then the daughters of Cain, that would be the daughters of men. But of course, there's not a hint of that in the text whatsoever, nor would it explain the consequences with the Niphilim or even the extreme wickedness.

So it breaks down in many ways. You get into that in more depth. in your book, but why do you feel that this is a position, the sons of God being fallen angels, this is a position that has historic interpretation on its side?

Well, if if you go back into the Mesopotamian material, which reversing Hermon devotes a couple of chapters to. Do you What you find out is that before the flood, the Mesopotamians you know, believed in in beings called the Abkalu. The Apkalu to a Mesopotamian were they were good guys, they were wonderful, they were Scholars referred to them as culture heroes. These were the the divine beings who Civilized the world really it gave humanity the knowledge necessary to create civilization, so they were wonderful. Before the flood, they're always referred to as divine.

There's no ambiguity. The story in Mesopotamia goes, though, that Eventually, some of the higher gods were discontent with humanity. They didn't like humans. They made too much noise.

So they decided to wipe them out of the flood. Yopcala were kind of mortified by this because they'd invested a lot of effort. Into working with humanity and creating civilization.

So they decided. upon a means to preserve Uh civilization to preserve their knowledge Despite the cataclysm of the flood. And in the Mesopotamian material, we find out. What apparently what this was because there are tablets, for instance, in Mesopotamian material that. Refer to the Abkhalu, of course, as divine beings, wise ones before the flood, but then after the flood.

They are not referred to the same way. There are four postblood opkalu in a particular text. described as being, quote, of human descent, And the fourth of these post-blood opkalu is referred to as being two-thirds opkalu and one-third human. It's the same description that's given to Gilgamesh. Who is also called Lord of the Apkalu in a cylinder seal from Mesopotamia.

So apparently, And again, this isn't new to me. Like you said, lots of other scholars have known about this, but it's only been recently that all this data has sort of been accumulated. Apparently, the Opkalu decide, well, we're going to mate with humans And on the other side of the flood, there were there were certain upkalu that were hybrids, for lack of a better description. That would sort of Restart the plan, you know, to try to re-civilize the world among the surviving humans in the Mesopotamian version of the flood.

Now, what's interesting. is that Gilgamesh is mentioned by name in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, specifically the Book of the Giants. And the implication of all this, again, is that you had this mating These were, you know, the men of renown, the Apkalu of renown after the flood that. contribute to kick-starting civilization again. You have this whole hybrid sort of thing going on, and oh, by the way, Gilgamesh is described as a giant as well.

So that's a very quick overview. Um Every point in Genesis 6:1 through 4. And what's really interesting on top of that. Is in the Mesopotamian material, the lead god Marduk was really unhappy with this. And he judges the Opkalu for doing this.

and sends them down to the abyss. the underworld.

Now What's significant is that the Book of Enoch preserves All of that. In its telling of the Genesis 6 story. And that's important because when you go to the New Testament, you go to the book of Jude or 2 Peter. It talks about the angels that sinned, that are kept in chains of darkness, in the abyss. And in one place in the Greek, it uses a verb tar tara'o, which to means to be sent to Tartarus Well, Tartarus was the place.

Where these same offenders, the giants and their offspring and so on and so forth, this whole bunch of guys. they get sent in Greek stories you know for having the the the same sorts of crimes committed. And so Peter and Jude are Are accepting this story, this storyline, this idea. But what it tells us is that the roots of it. isn't necessarily Greek stuff.

It actually goes back The mesopotamian material And you can't find. the sons of God, the Nephilim, or anything like this, imprisoned. In the abyss in the Old Testament, there are little shades of it, and you know this because you've done work on the Rephaim. You get little glimpses of it, but you don't get anything really systematic. But all of that Comes from Mesopotamian material.

It's preserved in Enoch and it leaks its way into the New Testament. And so this tells us how important The Book of Enoch was because it preserves the original context. for Genesis six, one through four. And if you take the Sephite view, you have to ignore all of that.

So my objection is, look, We talk about interpreting the Bible in context all the time. Are we really serious about it? because if you're serious about interpreting scripture in context, in an effort to understand what the writer wanted you to get wanted you to understand, then you cannot take the Cephite view. You are violating. whole principle of interpreting a text in its own context.

All right, let me just jump in and ask this then. We've just got about a minute before the break. What then was the purpose of Genesis 6? Is it just borrowing Mesopotamian material and the Bible is just borrowing pagan material? Or is it setting the record straight?

Yeah, it's it's setting the record straight. It's not like You know, and and this happens I can just generalize this to the whole Bible. when the Bible draws on ancient Near Eastern material, the point is not the writer sitting there with writer's block. Oh man, I I got a paragraph to go. I don't know what to I don't know what to write.

Oh, hey, I read this neat thing over here, let's throw that in. No. To the Mesopotamians, the Aukkalu were heroic. And Marduk, of course, sends them to the abyss. And the Apkalu were the Mesopotamian answer to the question: how did Babylon get so great?

And they basically said, we're great, we're the greatest. people and civilization are gods of the greatest because They civilized us, we worship them. This is why we are the top dog. And they viewed this all positively. Whereas the biblical writer is saying, look, now this this is yeah, this is like what happened, but These are not good guys.

What the the effect of this was to raise up certain bloodlines that we're going to run into that fought our annihilation.

Alright, so let's come back to that. The bloodline, seeking the annihilation. of Israel. Where are we going? Straight to the word and its cultural context.

We'll be right back. It's fire we want, for fire we Please. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with best-selling author and biblical and Semitic scholar Dr. Michael Heiser. His brand new book, Reversing Hermon, Enoch the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. You can get the book and the CD of our interview exclusively at thelineoffire.org. And of course, you can get the book anywhere, but the special package just from us.

So, Michael, in short, what the Babylonians celebrated somehow, this mating of these heavenly beings with human beings and the offspring produced, what they celebrated, Genesis 6 is telling us is something disastrous, something that contributed to bringing on the flood, something that actually ties in with Israel's conquest of Canaan, and something that has more information preserved in the book of Enoch. And it's obviously through familiarity with the book of Enoch that the New Testament writers allude to these things. We're going to unpack all of that in the minutes ahead.

So, Michael, you mentioned right before the break the annihilation, the attempted annihilation of the Israelites. bloodline and obviously Israel's call to wipe out the Canaanites. What in the world does that have to do with the Niphilem and this whole story? Yeah, I spend actually a lot more time on this in Unseen Realm, but in a nutshell, I mean, we do get this in Hermon. reversing Hermon.

what happens at Genesis six ultimately results in a line of of you know individuals That the Bible knows as Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, and a few other Ems. Depending on the geography of where they're at, they get different names. But they were They were the biggest problem. The view I take of the conquest is that it begins and ends oriented to these particular individuals. Joshua, for instance, defines victory at the end of the conquest narrative in the book of Joshua as: quote, there are no more Anakim.

in the land. Neonachim in Deuteronomy two and three again. We know who they are. It's numbers 13. They're linked back to the Nephilim.

So, what happens here in Genesis 6:1 through 4. leads to A near disaster. It leads to these rival divine beings. Again, this is the way the biblical writers look at it, and this is the truth we accept. That They were there.

to annihilate Israel. It was to annihilate Yahweh's children. These were rival people scattered among the land. Not everybody in the land, I would think not even most people in the land, could trace their lineage back to this event. But the ones that did, were unusually powerful enemies.

And so Joshua says The Conquest uses a lot of verbs, it's not just verbs of killing. You know, it was acceptable to drive people out, to displace them, to dispossess them. But when it comes to the language of Karem, And other verbs of killing. Again, I don't think it's a coincidence, but if you look at the passages where those that terminology is used, They overlap with passages where you will find vestiges of the Nephilim of these giant clans, and again, that's why I think. Joshua defines victory as there are no more Anakim in the land.

There are a few that went up to the Philistine cities, we meet them later. during the time of David and David has to dispatch the last of the Rephaim. you know, Goliath and his brothers But this was a big deal because They were sort of specially there. as being the ultra enemy to the people of God. And reversing Herman is not about all of that.

It it it starts with Genesis six. And the whole context for it. And then I, you know, I have to sort of acquaint people with the narrative of Enoch. What's even What's even really worse for us, I mean, we don't live in biblical times, we don't have to worry about modern Nephilim. I think that idea is a myth and is kind of you know, silly and and cartoonish actually.

According to the Bible, these lines were wiped out during the biblical period, and that solves the story for me. But what's even worse is that according to The way scripture r writers, you know, repurpose the whole story. is that the knowledge that the Babylonians gloried in you know, things like What you know, how to make warf you know, weapons of warfare, astrology. you know, herbs and roots. all this sort of stuff that they thought was wonderful and what put them at the top of the pecking order.

The biblical writers view as leading to idolatry and immorality and self-destruction.

So I put it this way in the book. If you asked The average Jew. Let's just start with a question. If you ask the average Christian, hey, why is the world the way it is? Why is it so messed up?

Why is there so much evil? You know, what w why is why is there depravity? Most Christians will say Genesis 3. For fall. And that's the end of the story.

If you ask the same thing to an Israelite or a Jew, They would say, well, you know, Genesis 3, that's when rebellion began, both divine rebellion and human rebellion. But then you also have Genesis six, And what the Watchers did, that's Enoch's term for the Opcolar, the sons of God. what the launchers did in teaching humans basically how to destroy themselves Through technologies and other things that, you know, in and of themselves wouldn't be awful, but we're going to teach you how to. advance your own immorality and self destruction and misery and chaos We're going to sow this among you and just watch you destroy yourselves. That needs to be dealt with.

That's a reason for depravity. And then third, Is what happened at Babel with Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9, and God's punishment of the nations. allotting them to lesser gods and so on and so forth. And I spent a lot of time In Unseen Realm talking about. But in this book, I focus on The the depravity problem because if you have this storyline in your head.

That there are three problems to solve, not just one. And interestingly enough, the church fixates on Genesis three. It demythologizes Genesis 6 and gets rid of that, and y and nobody ever really discovers Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9 with Babel.

So so we've been myopically fixed on one, but If you had the whole scope in your head, especially the story of the Watchers, you're going to come across things in the New Testament That Are just going to jump out at you. The way things are said, the way things are described. are actually part of this worldview and dip into it. And that's really what reversing Hermon is about. Because if those are the three problems, When the Messiah comes, the Messiah is not here just to cure the ill.

of Genesis three uh two two Yeah. you know, heal our estrangement from God and give us resurrection life to conquer death. Those are big deals, obviously. But the Messiah is also supposed to take care of the other two problems. Bring back the nations.

That's the Babel problem. And then in this book, I focus on. healing, reversing, The widespread self-destructive depravity. that resulted from Genesis six. All right, big statements, but with massive documentation in the book, Reversing Herman.

Enoch the Watchers and Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. We have laid a foundation. This next half hour, what we'll do is now build on this. We'll tell you more about the Book of Enoch. tell you what Hermon is and what it signifies.

and then give you explicit examples from the New Testament where it clearly has in mind these truths that have been preserved in the Book of Enoch, not part of the Bible. but a book of great importance to early Jews and Christians. Again, to order the book and the CD of today's interview, go to the lineofire.org. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Dr. Michael Heiser's brand new book, Reversing Hermon, that's spelled H-E-R-M-O-N, Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. Michael, let's just take three or four minutes, give some examples where it's clear that the New Testament writers were familiar with the book of Enoch and esteemed what was written in it. Really?

Well, what I do in the book is I break it down into passages. In the Gospels, the Epistles, and in the Book of Revelation. Three sections of the book after we get out of Genesis 6 and the Enoch story.

So when it comes to the birth of of Jesus, for instance, There are if you take again certain passages a certain way, and this is what I'm suggesting to people in the book. you come out with a birth date for Jesus that falls on tissue one. And What I do in the book is I show how in, you know, for the for the early Jew, the Jew of the first century, this was also Noah's birthday. Again, if you read the book, you'll get the data for all that. But there's this alignment with Jesus and Noah.

that would have telegraphed connection.

Well, why is Noah important?

Well, he was the one chosen by God you know, earned favor, not earned favor, but Had favor with God. at the time of the flood. The flood comes and it marks, again, God's attempt to destroy the evil, cleanse the earth and all that sort of thing.

Now we know for the rest of the Old Testament story. if vestiges of that survive and then the evil crops up again, And what we get there, therefore, with Jesus is that: okay, the Messiah is going to come. to finish the job. Yeah, the majority of Chronological signage. There is sort of thematic relationships between Jesus and Noah.

That would have telegraphed the idea that the Messiah is the one who will really reverse the effects of what happened at the flood. And of course, We think of the flood, we don't think of Genesis 6, 1 through 4. But when a Jew thought of the flood, they thought of Genesis 6, 1 through 4 because of the Watchers. in the genealogy. Why are the four women That some people say all four are Gentiles.

There's a couple for sure. The others are ambiguous. But that really isn't the important part. The four women in Jesus' genealogy are described in such a way And certain terms are used, both in Greek and also the Aramaic targums. Uh per these women and the episodes of their life in the Old Testament.

There are certain vocabulary that you use.

Okay. pulls from Genesis six, one through four. All four of the women have stories either about sexual transgression, either something they did or something done to them. And I spend a whole chapter on this drawing on the work of a recent dissertation. that basically argues the point that the reason these four women are in there is because They are examples.

Fog. This transgression back in Genesis six, one through four. They are sort of you know, archetypes of it. And by including them in the line of the Messiah, the person that they help to produce genealogically is the one who will undo the effects of crimes done to humanity. along these lines.

Again If you're reading the gospel genealogies with the story of Enoch in mind, and you see certain vocabulary. Your mind is going to be drawn back to the story. And so I'm suggesting that that was the intention. That's why these women are there. Jesus is the one who will reverse.

what was done in Genesis 6, 1 through 4. Jesus goes to places to minister. that are associated with the giant clans of the Old Testament. And there are some dramatic things that happen there. Again, telegraphing the fact that I'm not just here.

To defeat the Lord of the dead and give you eternal life, and so on and so forth. I'm reclaiming this land. That was once given over to the giant clans and their descendants. where holy war, the war of Karem, was once fought. I am here to reclaim dev back into the kingdom.

Alright friends, let me encourage you. We're called to test everything. Right. Get the book, reversing Hermong. Test everything with scripture.

Test everything with the scholarly data that's here and get the book in the CD at thelineoffire.org. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

My special guest this hour, Dr. Michael Heiser, his brand new book, Reversing Hermann. Enoch the Watchers and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ, we read for you 1 Enoch 9, 5. You have made everything and with you is the authority for everything. Everything is naked and open before your sight, and you see everything, and there is nothing which can hide itself from you.

Compare that to Hebrews 4:13, and before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account. Obviously, some. Similar lines of thought there, indicating that the New Testament writers were familiar with Enoch. It was highly esteemed, the early church and among early Jews. It was not widely considered canonical of scripture, only the Ethiopian church has preserved it as scripture.

But it's part of what is called the pseudopigrapha, which is writings falsely ascribed, meaning that. this would be ascribed to Enoch as if he wrote the entire book of Enoch. But Michael, this was not meant as a forgery or a trick, was it? This was something that the people reading understood. Yeah, it this was a common thing to have a book bear the name of the central character.

Uh Yeah. There are canonical books like that, First and Second Sandu. Those books never claim to have been written by Sandu, but they get the name. Uh by tradition. Usually when it comes to pseudopigrapha, the books are grouped in there because scholars presume Presupposed that books were written with the intention of the writer to stick the main character's name on it.

You know, that thing that sort of thing can happen by design, it can happen by tradition. You know, ultimately, this is a a good illustration of scholars. you know, kind of assuming that they know more than what they actually do. But The long story short is that just because a book bears the name Of a character who didn't actually write it, and people thought maybe that that person did write it. doesn't undermine the value of the book.

And in in Enoch's case, first Enoch. It was certainly, again, a highly respected book. For the first century era, and of course, even a little few centuries earlier than that. I like to illustrate it this way. If I Let's say I sat down And I read uh Calvin's Institute.

And then I read Calvin's commentary on Romans. and anything else that Calvin ever said about Robin.

Well, if I sat down one day to write my own commentary on Romans, it's going to be next to impossible to not have John Calvin in my head. And that's Sort of, you know, how we need to think about the situation with first Enoch and the writers in the New Testament. It's very clear that New Testament writers read this book and knew its content pretty well. And in the course of their own writing, which we consider inspired and canonical. There are passages, concepts, terms.

Firm. David. That comes out of First Enoch that the New Testament writer thought useful. for articulating whatever point that he was making at the time. And so it it's actually a very human, very common thing to have happened.

Lo and behold New Testament writers read books. And those books mattered.

So how they thought about certain things. And you have in the back of the book some very valuable appendixes. The first is the question of the inspiration of 1 Enoch in the early church. And you quote the Epistle of Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian. And they're all speaking about 1 Enoch origin as well.

So what was the consensus of the early church about 1 Enoch? Yeah, the consensus was that First Enoch was not inspired. It had a few defenders and you just named them there. It's kind of interesting, you know, I I believe it was Tertullian For those who are interested in this, Jim Vanderkam has a book on. Early Christian apocalyptic literature.

He has a whole chapter on. Uh the you know, how the early church thought about Enoch. And in that chapter he's got An interesting anecdote from, I believe it was Tertullian who. We basically and this is Mike's paraphrase, basically said, Hey, I'm getting old now. And I've Still, one of the few that thought that this should be in the New Testament or the Old Testament or canonical somewhere.

And I'm I've lost that debate. And he was content in what he wrote, in his comments. To assume that the Holy Spirit whichin dwell the all believers, Would lead the church and mass to make the right decision. And so at the end of his life, he's like, I'm okay with it. You know, I love First Enoch.

I thought it should be in there. I thought it should be sacred like the other books, but. The Holy Spirit has led the church in a different direction and unflying. I'm fine with that.

So the consensus was that it was not inspired, but it did have some defenders. And of course, as you said, provided information that they believed was correct. When Paul, writing to Timothy, talks about Jonas and Jombris opposing Moses.

Well, who were they? Where did he get their names from?

Well, that was preserved in Jewish tradition or created by Jewish tradition. Those were names that were being used. Either way, it's not that he came up with that. That was part of the tradition of the day that Jewish people commonly accepted and knew.

So in Enoch. Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say, you know, it looks I understand Because the idea that First Enoch should be canonical has sort of been popularized by some writers in our day. And then, of course, you have this thing with the Church Fathers. But when you really think about the issue.

The Bible, biblical writers quote all sorts of stuff. Yep. And we don't have an argument, for instance, of well, should the bail cycle be inspired? You know, should the bail cycle be in there? Because it's Psalm seventy four draws on the bail cycle very clearly in the nine.

Yeah. Right. You know, you you you get this. It's just Yeah, okay. Folks, let's just take a deep breath.

and understand that biblical writers Red thing. And some things they read, they decided to intentionally respond to as a theological corrective. Other things they just found useful. Oh, I like the way that Enoch said this. I mean, they don't we don't have that verbiage in the New Testament, but you can tell they cite it not antagonistically, but because it's useful.

It helps them express something. Again, why do we focus on Enoch and wonder if it's inspired and have a little fight over it?

Well, we don't do that with the wisdom of Amenamope or the Bale cycle or something else. Again, it it's just not It's almost not an important question. You know, should it be in there or not? It doesn't matter. Read it because if you read it, And if you read all of this sort of stuff, And you're and you're you get familiarity with the content.

As you're reading your Bible, you will be able to have that Israelite in your head a little bit more. you will be able to have that first century Jew in your head a little bit more. and that will help you understand something you are reading. In Yeah. Yeah, it's just like when we look at Jesus having a dispute with the Pharisees.

Or Jesus healing a certain way, like in John 9, where he heals a blind man in a unique way.

Well, it seems that he was intentionally doing that to call attention to some traditions that he differed with that he felt got in the way of the Sabbath. Or when Isaiah says it. Go ahead. 'Kay.

Well, I was going to say, I think Jesus and the New Testament writers do that all the time. Yes. They assume their audience. has either read or heard something. that has been lost to us.

you know, without a great deal of effort to to recover it. Uh, but I think it happens all the time. Right, so in Isaiah 27:1, where it speaks about Yahweh smiting with his sword Leviathan, the coiling serpent, the fleet serpent.

Well, you know, hundreds of years before that, in Canaanite literature, North Canaanite literature in Ugarit, it says that Baal did it, that he smote Litano, or we'd say Leviathan.

So it's not that Isaiah, like you said, had writers block or was borrowing a myth. You say, no, no, no, no. It's not that Baal did it. He didn't destroy this chaos monster. Yahweh did it, the one true God.

So again, we get the overall point just reading it in English and not knowing much more background. But when we get the background, it's like, whoa, that really opens up. And the same thing with the concept of Saphon, the north. This was the seat of the gods. And Israel becomes the seat.

Bad stuff comes from the north. And Saphon is this mythical mountain. It also means north. And bad stuff comes from the north. And that becomes.

You know, the ominous threat from the north, Babylon, Assyria, but there's something spiritual behind it. No, no, God is the king overall. That's what the biblical authors are saying. In reversing Hermon in the sec in the fourth section of the book, which is about connections between stuff in the book of Revelation and Genesis six. again, specifically the Watcher story.

When we get into the Antichrist and then certain other themes in the book of Revelation. It's not necessarily a phone. That's the issue, but it's Babylon. Again, you know, we know about Mystery Babylon because it's named in the book of Revelation, but there's a lot of other things. Lurking sort of underneath the surface.

That connects concepts like the Antichrist, the great enemy of the Messiah. which again you can you can form a very nice second temple profile of that, but it actually connects back to Mesopotamia, specifically the Babel. Yeah, why is Babylon so big? And by the way, there's even an appendix about the Antichrist in reversing Hermon. We come back, who or what is Hermon?

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire with my special guest, Dr. Michael Heiser. Yeah, all we're doing is scratching the surface of this fascinating new book, Reversing Hermon, Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. You can get the book together with today's interview at thelineoffire.org. Maybe I should have started here, Michael, but a staff member sent me a note.

Maybe I missed it, but who is Hermon and why are we reversing him?

So at least we've kept the mystery going until now.

So what is Hermon? Hermon in English, Hermon in Hebrew. What is this and why are we reversing it? Did? Hormone is the mountain.

that Enoch has the Watchers descending to. Again, the Watchers are the sons of God of Genesis six, one through four. Watchers, Enoch's term for them. This is the place where they descend to Unite themselves in purpose to swear an oath among themselves to corrupt humanity. And so Hermon is sort of an archetype for what happens at Genesis six.

And ultimately, Hermon is linked to Babel and Babylon Because of the Mesopotamian Upkalu story that is the backdrop for Genesis 6, 1 through 4. Hermon, for instance, in In old Babylonian literature, was considered the dwelling place of the Anunnaki. again, which in certain eras of Sumerian and Mesopotamian literature. Were deities that were sort of the lords of the underworld, the lords of hell, that kind of thing. Again, to be overly simplistic here, but It was a bad play.

Hermon had a bad reputation. And in the Old Testament, of course, It's part of the geography associated with some of the Refaim, the giant plant.

So When we talk about reversing hormone, We're talking about What We're talking about the Jewish expectation that the Messiah would undo the all of the evil that extended from Genesis six, one through four, all the chaos that descended from The use of the Babylonian deities that that are evil and demonic. All right, so let's break something down. And I know this is not your primary thought. In writing a book like this, you're writing as a scholar, teacher, and opening up the scriptures. And obviously I'm relating to the book in the same way.

But someone's listening and says, well, What does it have to do with my own life? I'm just trying to pray and meet with God and love my family and be a good witness. And what do I need to know any of this stuff? How does it affect me personally? Again, I know you're not writing this primarily as a devotional, but you do care about the application of scripture in church.

How does it help me to know this? I think it it alerts our mind, again, other than just generally knowing Scripture better. it alerts our mind to the fact That We are and always have been. in the midst of a of an ultimately spiritual conflict. Yes, we can do lots of things to destroy ourselves and destroy our own lives.

But when push comes to shove, the reason that humanity has this history is It is all symptomatic of a spiritual war, really, for our minds and our hearts, and ultimately our souls.

So I think uh i it can orient the average person to consider that You know What's the nature of the conflict? Why is the world the way it is? It's not just because people are bad. It's because there are greater intelligences manipulating people and have who have always manipulated people. To move the herd, to do what they want, to think the way they want, anything to get them away from the truth of the gospel.

Anything? to get them away from being a member of the family of God. And so it's a spiritual thing.

Now the flip side of that coin is important.

Well, if I have at the end of the day, spiritual opposition. if this is the story of humanity where it's really about an unseen war. then I have a role in And if we would just wake up every day. thinking that what I do Is part of this conflict. What I do is actually important.

Because if there's an unseen force or forces warring against me, there are unseen forces warring on my behalf. And life becomes a cosmic thing. You might think you're stuck in a job, you're stuck in a bad relationship, what you do doesn't matter, you're not a public figure, so on and so forth. That is quite wrong. Excellent.

in sort of moving God's program ahead. you know, advancing this thing we call the kingdom of God. is moment by moment, it's decision by decision. And it is the cumulative effect of everyone involved. That you know, at the end of the day, result in Spiritual victory.

or spiritual law. it's a real conflict. And so I think if we can orient ourselves to wake up with such a thought. Uh You know, we would just be better off. I'll use a controversial illustration here.

You know, some listeners might not like it, but I think it does make a good point. Consider ISIS. If you are a member of ICE, You wake up. and your first bought. is how to promote your goal, how to accomplish your mission.

How to restore the caliphate. Throughout the day, You are oriented and motivated. You are single-minded. And those who are with you are motivated and single-minded along the same thing. You are of one mind.

When you go to sleep, your last thought is, what will I do tomorrow? to accomplish this goal. If we as Christians would wake up and our first thought is how Will what I do today, no matter how mundane, how can I advance the kingdom of God? How can I clear the path for someone to believe and enter the family of God? And if our last thought of every day is, what will I do tomorrow?

to further the kingdom of God and to win this war. the church would be dramatically different. It it just would. We are we are We are worldly. We have our minds set on the needs and the things of this life, and we can, in part, excuse ourselves because, hey, we're embodied beings and we have to live here.

But if we really believe that that this world is not our home. that what we do is about more than paying bills. If it takes on a cosmic significance, The church, we and the church collectively would change. And it would have a dramatic effect. in all sorts of ways.

Yeah, I agree with every word that you just said, and it's a great way to end the broadcast. And as you read this book, Reversing Hermon, it's going to take you into a spiritual realm and give you insight. to the importance of the spiritual battle and insight into many truths the New Testament and help us remember where our battle is ultimately being fought here on earth, but in. The spiritual realm.

So, the book, Reversing Hermon, the CD of our interview, you can get it at thelineoffire.org. Share this with your friends. This is a book that is going to be talked a lot about a whole lot, and we barely scratch the surface. Hey, Michael, I know you're busy. Thanks for taking time, and may the Lord's blessing be on this as the message gets discussed.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. My joy. All right friends, you heard it first right here on the line of fire.

Again, the book. And the C D Exclusively together at thelineoffire.org. Get as many copies as you want. My bottom line: we are fighting a battle in the spirit realm. All right, we're going to do a special edition.

If you've got questions, we've got answers from Facebook, Twitter, email, and your calls. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Hey, these are Paul's words, not mine. I didn't make these up. Finally, be strong in the Lord, and the strength of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood.

but against the rulers. Against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil. in the heavenly places. Our great battle is in the spiritual realm. And we just had that underscored to us in the last hour by Dr.

Michael Heiser, author of the brand new book, Reversing Hermon, Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. Really fascinating. At the very least, it's going to trigger massive, massive discussion that needs to be had. You can get the book and the CD from our website together at thelineoffire.org. I wasn't sure if Dr.

Heiser was going to be able to stay on at all into the second hour to take calls, so I cleared the second hour, which means that I'm going to be able to take your calls even though Dr. Heiser was with us for the first hour only.

So if you have a question about the book of Enoch, about the spiritual realm. or a question of any kind whatsoever. I'm going to take your calls today. Phone lines are wide open. I've got questions to answer on Facebook, on Twitter, on email.

So we're going to open the phone lines 866-348-7884 and do A special edition of You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers. Here on a Tuesday. Johnny, how did the Watchers survive the flood? Or these fallen angels, these sons of God. these divine beings who took on human form and had relations with women.

Well, the first thing is Genesis 6 would indicate that they were all destroyed by the flood. But Genesis 6 also says, and afterwards they did this.

So it would seem that this sin was repeated. After the flood, And then those people were ultimately annihilated by the Israelites as they survived as Anakim or Rephaim. Or Nephilim, descendants of the Nephilim, same word used there in Genesis 6.

So certainly those that were alive in Noah's day were wiped out. But then it appears, because it says, and afterwards, when this happened, resulted in the men of renown being born. appears that there are other angels that fell and committed the same sin. And what's happened to them ultimately, they're cast down, according to 2 Peter. They're cast down and imprisoned.

Yeah, it's interesting stuff, but if you just take a look at the wording here. 2 Peter 2, this is what he writes: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell. And committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment. If he did not spare the ancient world, but preserve Noah. A herald of righteousness with seven others.

So he mentions those things side by side. And that's in 2 Peter. And then back in 1 Peter, he also has this very interesting reference, 1 Peter chapter 3. He says this, for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. because they formally did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

While the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were being brought safely through water.

So it specifically mentions the angels that sinned in the days of Noah and that were now imprisoned. But it appears that it happened as well after the flood, first because of the language of Genesis 6 and afterwards, and then secondly, because you have these descendants of the Niphileim after the flood.

So it must have been that others fell and were also judged by God. All right, straight to the phones when we come back: 866-348-7884. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. We're doing a special edition. If you've got questions. We've got answers. Let the controversies fly today.

We're up for anything, as we always are. All right, we'll start in Hyattsville, Maryland. Robert, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, sir. How are you today?

Good, thank you. That's good. You know, I have so many things floating around in my mind. I'll try to keep 'em, uh, organized and editorialized and Um first thing I was thinking of earlier. Remember, I think he may, I don't know if he's still with us or not, he may be at the Lord.

but he was the Messianic Jewish. I don't know if he called himself a rabbi or not, but he wrote this book It was the first thing I'd ever seen about the subject Of the, I want to say the word wrong. Nephilim. Nephilim, uh-huh. What was his name?

The author? Oh, gosh. He was he was on he had radio shows that the book was called UFOs, What Old Earth Is Earth Is Happening? And he dwelt with Genesis chapter 6. And stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. There's no question. That's what Dr. Heiser alluded to in the first hour. Oh, okay.

Right. He didn't mention UFOs, but he said some of the silly things that are being made to arguments made today. No, I see absolutely no basis for that whatsoever. That there are still Nifile today, or that there's this mixed breed of fallen angel and man, and something like that, and that that explains aliens and UFOs. I don't believe that for a split second.

But do you think that possibly, I mean, you do believe that there are. God's angels and And the enemy's angels to continue. Oh, yes, absolutely. And could there be demons? Who take on certain form and appear to people as aliens?

Or, yeah, I mean, certainly that's possible, but that it has any connection to Genesis. Never been sure if there was a difference between D. Then and Polonies.

Well, that's another debate, Robert. A great point. We don't know for sure.

Some just assume that demons are fallen angels, and others think demons have another origin.

Some claim that demons were human spirits in a pre-adamic race that was then destroyed before the creation we read of in Genesis 1, beginning in verse 2. I highly question that. But certainly we know We want to say always, but when I started because there's so there's a lot of different theories about Genesis. and this, that, and the other thing. And I'm still, you know, it kind of in the middle of a lot of it.

But if the fallen angels or the Nephir. Mr. Leem. Yeah, um if if they're what they're bus Be meaning there'd be a crossbreeding of either demonic possessed. uh human beings with Okay.

children of the Lord or what it Actually, it means specifically that be part of the sin of them was that they were allowed to have sexual relations with the actual fallen angels. Yeah, some right.

Somehow, what it seems, not like the what was it, Rosemary's baby. But yeah, in point of fact, it would seem, as strange as it is. that these fallen angels were able to take on human form. Or take on or inhabit a human body, and now there was this mixed breed, and that was part of the evil. because of which God destroyed the earth.

And the New Testament seems to allude to it plainly when it speaks of the angels who sinned. And as Dr. Heiser said, in the first hour, is spoken of in the book of Enoch and is reflected in other literature in the New Testament.

So yes, it seems that this did happen, that there was then a race of giants that was wiped out by the flood, but then it appears to have happened after the flood as well. And this race of giants was then wiped out by the Israelites. And that could be even part of the great conflict with David and Goliath, one of the last of this race of giants. But it's part of a... massive ungodly mixture.

Something that God is fundamentally against. And we don't need to speculate on it happening today because it's not. But we do need to recognize the intensity of the spiritual battle, the reality of the spiritual realm. And I think, Robert, all too often we concentrate on just what's around us. If you're like me and you're looking at cultural issues, it's very easy to focus on the cultural issues and focus on the president or the congress.

And yes, those are important, but much more important is our prayer and our evangelism and our spiritual living in ways that is conducive to bringing about change. Hey, thank you, sir, for your questions. I'm sure others were wondering about some of these things as well. 866-34TRUTH. Let's go to Larin in Butner, North Carolina.

Thanks for calling the line of fire. And thank you for your program. I learned much from it. Yeah. Uh, can you hear me okay?

Oh, sure.

Okay. My question is, it's been a long time since I read it, but from what I recall reading about Ishmael, Uh could he possibly be This Mohammed? Because it said it was sent sent out, hated by all nations and sent out, if I recall correctly. In other words, that he is the ancient father of Muhammad? Is that your point?

I suppose so. I mean, I wonder if there's any relationship there.

Okay, right.

So, Ishmael, let's say Ishmael. is born, I'm just going to give you rough, rough numbers. Let's say Ishmael is born around 1900 BC. Muhammad is 600 AD. roughly.

So Muhammad is about 2,500 years after Ishmael. Is Ishmael the distant father? of Muhammad, just like Isaac is the distant father of the Jewish people, would be my distant father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as a Jewish man. I descend from them. That's what Muslims would argue.

And Muslims believe that Or at the least they would argue that it was Ishmael who was chosen, not Isaac, and that they would say the Bible gets things upside down.

Now, you might say, well, the characteristics of Ishmael and being kind of into fighting, and that speaks a lot about the Arab tribes, and it's part of their nature and being real hot-blooded and stuff. People have tried to make that argument as well. But as to a physical connection between Ishmael and Muhammad, that would simply be a matter of speculation. But I appreciate the question. Where are you going with it?

Thanks so much. 866. 348-7884. Here's a related question that I have on email from Tony. We have the canon of Scripture.

What would happen if archaeologists uncovered 40 new letters of Paul? or confirmable writings of other New Testament or Old Testament figures. Would this be included in the canon of Scripture or used as supplemental? Material.

Well, for example, there has been a 151st Psalm discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls. But there's no evidence that it was considered canonical. by the early synagogue or the early church. In other words, we have no record of this being looked at as Scripture, but it seems to have been an additional Psalm. What do we make of that?

Well, there are a lot of writings from the ancient world that were not part of the Bible. Here, so I'll give you an example, all right? For whatever reason in the providence of God that the letters of Paul that we have now were preserved and not others, we do know that there were others. and that everyone back then knew that there were others.

So for example, in Colossians 4, we read this. as he's giving instructions to the church there. In verse 16, he says, And when this letter has been read among you, Have it also read in the church of the Laodicians, and see that you also read the letter from Laodicea.

So Paul had another letter. That he had written, and it seems quite a few others. We would assume that was the case anyway. And there seems to be evidence of some other letters here and there, this being one of them. that there were other letters of Paul.

but they were not included in the canon of Scripture. Either they did not bear the same level of inspiration, or in the wisdom and providence of God, the material covered in them was not as important for future generations. We know that there were many prophetic words spoken in the Hebrew Bible, but most of them were not included within the Hebrew Bible. We know that there are other writings that are referenced, like the book of Joshara, Yashar in Hebrew. You say, oh no, I read that on the internet.

You read a much later forgery that claimed to be that we don't have that ancient book. And. For whatever reason, it has not been preserved for us.

So, if such writings were discovered, That would be fascinating. That would be eye-opening. That would be amazing. But it wouldn't change the canon of scripture because some of the ancient writers and writers of the Bible had these books and they knew about these books, and yet they did not consider them to be on the same level of inspiration or carrying the same authority or having the same purpose within the body. We trust the work of the Holy Spirit through the centuries in getting God's people to recognize what was scripture and what was not.

But certainly, if we discovered some other ancient letter of Paul, it would be absolutely fascinating and a massive archaeological discovery. When we come back, I just want to talk about so-called other ancient gospels. We'll address that when we return. You've got questions, we've got answers. Special edition today on the line of fire.

God change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I am taking your questions today on the line of fire, 866-348-7-884. Anything under the sun you want to ask me about, be it Bible, theology, spiritual life, be it moral culture, be it Israel, Jewish, be it a language question where I can help you. We're going for a wide range of things we're discussing. 866-348-7884. We've heard a lot in recent years, especially with the Da Vinci Code book and movie.

Well, there are other ancient gospels that the church suppressed and kept down because they didn't want these true stories to get out, or, you know, it was Mary, Magdalene, and Jesus, and they were a couple and they had children and all this nonsense. In point of fact, there were later gospels, so-called, with all kinds of attributions, you know, whether it was the Gospel of Judas or the Gospel of Thomas or something attributed to Pontius Pilate or whatever. And there were cults, there were offshoot groups that fell into all kinds of error. The New Testament is constantly warning against that, just like the Old Testament believers had to deal with the false prophets and false teachers, the same in the new, the same to this day.

So you had these other groups producing their own literature. But it was not accepted by the first believers. Why? Because they already had their gospels. They already had Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

They already had the foundational texts. They already had Paul's letters and some of the other letters. They already had these things. And now, when these other groups came, you know, 150 years later, 200 years later, and they've got this new information literature, they were already breakaway groups. It would be as if Christians today were supposed to accept the Book of Mormon because someone else said there's an extra book of the Bible.

No, of course not. Or if the Jehovah's Witnesses suddenly said we discovered this new book, it was Made it up. We don't accept it. We don't believe it.

So it's a complete misnomer. The church suppressed things, and the Bible translators suppress things because they don't want people to know the truth. There's a conspiracy, and somehow it all goes back to money and some control, and it's either the Pope or the Jews or somebody. Forget it. Forget it.

Forget it. All right. Here's a question I was asked on Facebook. Facebook, let me just get over to it. And it's from Jonathan, an anti-missionary that I was talking with, brought up these points.

And I was wondering how you would respond.

So the anti-missionary says this. Even if you were to grant that Jesus claimed to be the divine Messiah, that his proof sign was his violent death and subsequent resurrection. He rose from the dead. That would not make him the divine Messiah because of Deuteronomy 13. This anti-missionary says, quote, since Jesus was not revealed to anyone at Sinai or anyone else in the Tanakh, we have no choice but to understand Jesus as a false prophet.

Of course, it's a completely mistaken statement. First, He is foreshadowed in the Torah. That's number one. And number two, he is spoken of throughout the rest of the Hebrew scriptures. Hebrew scriptures that describe his divine nature.

The Hebrew scriptures that indicate that he had to come before the second temple was destroyed and make atonement for our sins. The Hebrew scriptures that say that he would be rejected by our people, that he would die for our sins, that he would be a light to the nations, that he would rise from the dead. This is all from the Hebrew Bible. As I gave my presentation at Kansas State University last week at this debate with Rabbi Daniel Freitag, All I did was quote from the Hebrew Bible. In my opening presentation, I didn't quote a word from the New Testament.

Because all I was doing was quoting verses in context and saying, who does this describe? And the answer was, it describes Jesus, the Messiah.

Now, as for the Torah itself, the Torah itself does not use the term Messiah. With reference to the future son of David. If it says Meshiach, it's talking about the high priest who is anointed. and it doesn't mention David at all. That doesn't mention daily believing, waiting for his coming, as Maimonides says, and that's the principle of faith that traditional Jews follow every day.

So that's not found. in the Torah. And by the way, the Torah does not say follow an oral law that's not written down. It says, no, follow what's written. That's the foundation.

The judges will give you guidance about disputable matters, but you follow what's written. The covenant's made on what's written. But within the Torah itself, remember Yeshua says in the New Testament, Moses wrote about meat.

So volume three of my series, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, is devoted to messianic prophecy. And the very first objection, so it's section 4.1, which is the beginning of... of Volume 3, if Jesus is really the Messiah and if he's so important, why doesn't the Torah speak of him at all? And my answer, you'd be surprised to see how many passages and concepts actually point to Jesus, the Messiah and the Torah.

So for example Genesis 22. the binding of Isaac. in different ways, which I lay out in volume 3 of answering Jewish objections to Jesus. In many ways, within the binding of Isaac, it is foreshadowing the Messiah. For example, Abraham proved his dedication to God through his sacrificial actions.

Genesis 22, 12, now I know that you fear God because you've not withheld from me your son, your only son. Romans 8.32, this is how God demonstrates his love for us in not withholding his only son. Isaac in Genesis 22 is Abraham's only son, Yaqid. In the same way, God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Isaac's willingness to be sacrificed illustrates the Messiah's obedience even to the point of death.

Abraham was confident, even though he was going to sacrifice his son, he'd somehow return from the mountain with his son. This prefigures then the Messiah's death and resurrection. Abraham says God will provide the Lamb. God will provide the lamb for the sacrifice, right? Genesis 22, when Isaac says, well, the fire and wood are here, but where's the lamb for the burnt offering?

Abraham answered, God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, but what was caught in the thicket with its horns? It was a ram. Here it says God will provide the lamb.

So there's a further hint about the Messiah coming as the Lamb of God, the one who brings deliverance to the people of God, just like the Lamb of God. When God sees the blood, he passes over and doesn't destroy. Again, a foreshadowing of the Messiah and his mission. And Jewish tradition states that even though Isaac didn't die, it was credited to him as if he did die.

So that's just one example. If we look at Joseph, rejected by his own brothers. Suffers false accusations and slander, even though he himself is righteous. Then he's exalted to become the savior of Egypt and the world, after which, the second time around, his brothers recognize him for who he is. We have, for example, the sacrificial system, life for life, the innocent taking the place of the guilty, pointing to the Messiah's substitutionary atonement.

The death of the high priest in Numbers 35, when the high priest dies. His death releases someone who accidentally killed a person. The Talmud says that the death of the high priest atones. That's why that happened. Deuteronomy 18: God says he'll raise up a prophet like Moses.

But then Deuteronomy 34 says, No prophet like Moses was ever raised up who worked signs, wonders, and miracles the way he did.

Well, Yeshua is that prophet like Moses, and even greater than Moses.

So that's just within the five books, and there are other things you could dig out as well in terms of foreshadowings of the Messiah.

So Moses wrote about Yeshua. pointed to him in different ways, even the promise to d to Abraham in Genesis 12 that through his seed all the world would be blessed, that comes to pass through the life and death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, through whom the knowledge of God, the message of God has gotten out to the entire world. And then the prophets who were raised up in each subsequent generation, they continued to give revelation in harmony with what God had spoken at Sinai, and they also painted a picture of Jesus the Messiah. If you believe Moses, you'll believe him. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

In the first hour today, I had a very fascinating discussion with biblical and Semitic scholar Michael Heiser. Author of the brand new book, Reversing Hermon, Enoch the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ. I'm telling you, it's an eye-opening, fascinating book that at the very least will give you more context for how the New Testament writers thought and some of the things that they were familiar with that we may have lost sight of. You can get the book. And the exclusive CD of our interview by going to thelineoffire.org.

I have Some extra time on the air today. I wasn't sure if Dr. Heiser would be able to stay on the second hour and answer questions. We had him down for an hour, and I thought maybe he could stay on, but he was unable to.

So we've got that first hour for you as planned. But I've been taking questions on any subject you have, like I normally do on Friday because we never get to all the emails and calls and things.

So you've got questions, we've got answers. Any question under the sun you want to ask me, if you differ with me, you've been waiting for the right moment, if you're just trying to sort something out spiritually, biblical, theologically, culturally, having to do with Israel, the Jewish people, having to do with America, give us a call, 866-348-7884. If you want to call about a controversy in your local church, the best way to do it is don't mention the name of the church or the name of the denomination. This way you can speak freely.

Well, we've got a big question we're dealing with about this issue. Yeah, you just talk about it freely. In this way, we're not talking about names, personalities, and things like that. 866-348-7884. Bob asks on Facebook: the United Methodist Church is splitting over differences concerning the authority of Scripture and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

The differences have manifested themselves around the issues of same-sex, quote, marriage and the ordination of ministers who are living active homosexual lives. How do churches split in a godly manner? They must split. They must split. They must separate.

There's no possible way that they could go on in fellowship and harmony. It's just not going to work. It is not going to work. The sooner they recognize that, the better, because they are not in harmony. about some really, really important issues.

So So Number one, What they do is agree to disagree. I would say they all get on their knees before God. And they say, God, we just want to follow you. God? We just want to follow your word.

So lead us and guide us. If our brothers are right and we're wrong, show us. If we're right and they're wrong, show us. You do it like that. And then you say, hey.

You be free to contend for what you contend for, and I'm going to contend for what I contend for. And may God be The judge. That's what you have to do. That's the godliest way that you can do it. But I would say this that the split must happen.

and that I would plainly say, If I was one of the leaders in the churches that held to the authority of Scripture and the Lordship of Jesus in these issues, and I rejected these new interpretations, I would say that the others are in very dangerous error. I would warn them. Sure, leaders get down on their knees before God and they speak honestly to him. Fine. But then I would say to those leaders, I believe you are in serious error.

And as we're splitting and dividing, I want to warn you. that you were going on a path of destruction. I will warn you that that you were deviating from scripture. I would have warn you that what you're doing is going to cost caused the loss of many lives spiritually. and is going to bring further shipwreck to the United Methodist Church.

Be forewarned, and we are praying for your repentance. If they want to come up with their warning, that's fine. But I would separate in the least bloody way. on a personality issue. on a personal issue.

But on a scriptural issue, I would make it loud and clear and plain. This is is dangerous and destructive and I'm warning you, I'm charging you. Turn back to God in repentance and accept the testimony of Scripture. 866-348-7884. We'll come back, take your calls.

Got a bunch more questions to answer today. Shake the nation, change the world. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. About to go back to the phones just quickly on Facebook. Kerrigan, what do you think about the prosperity gospel? I think it's terribly misguided. I absolutely believe in God's provision.

I believe that there are aspects of the prosperity gospel which have helped people get out of a poverty mentality and recognize that God is a generous God and have faith to fund missions worldwide. I do not believe that poverty in itself is a gift from God, but what I fundamentally reject is the idea that Jesus died to make us rich and that the sign of spiritual blessing is physical riches. I believe in provision. I believe in generosity. I believe that we can have a lot or we can have a little and still serve God effectively in this world.

I believe that there has been some positive fruit in swinging away from this mentality that the less you have, the holier you are, and the less you give, the more sanctified you are. We serve an abundant God, but this emphasis is a carnal emphasis. It is preaching a carnal message to carnal people and has further plunged the Church of America into carnality. Those who teach it, the ones who teach it in the most extreme way, are guilty of the most extreme error.

Some who teach it in a way correcting a previous poverty mentality have good points. You see God's provision through Scripture. That's undeniable. We see clearly that we reap what we sow, and as we give, it's given to us. We saw that in Scripture.

It is the emphasis, it is the focus. You can actually search online the prosperity. Let's see. What was the chapter?

Well, tell you what, my book, How Saved Are We? I've got a whole chapter on the prosperity gospel that came out in 1990. As for heresy, If you teach that Jesus died to make you rich, And that the proof of spirituality is earthly riches. And your great focus should be on physical prosperity. That is obviously a destructive doctrine, a heretical doctrine, because it has nothing to do with saving us from sin or calling us to submit to the Lordship of Jesus.

However, if someone is preaching an overemphasis on prosperity, that would be something that needs to be corrected as opposed to being outright heretical. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go to Doug in Kernersville, North Carolina. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hello.

How are you today? Doing very well. Thank you. Yes, thank you for taking my call. Um Dr.

Brown, I've always wondered about the wise men who came to bring their gifts to Jesus. It seems that the Jews did not seem to predict that Jesus was coming, but yet. This group from the East did, and they understood some things that. The Jews didn't understand. And I wonder where they got their understanding.

Were they Jews in exile or were they?

Some group that just studied ancient scripts, or do we know anything about them? I'd like to hear what you have to say about that. Yeah, it's a great question. It's a literate question. We know very little beyond what's written in the New Testament.

The question is, those that were called the Magi, were they pagan astrologers? And that this is Matthew's way of saying that Jesus is the son of Abraham, the son of David, but he's the savior of the whole world. And right from the start, God is getting the attention of the world. And of course, God could do that. God can speak in all different ways to a psychic.

God can get a message if he wants and call that psychic to repent and point them to Jesus.

So that's one idea, that they were pagan astrologers and they had some tradition about a Redeemer coming and the king of the Jews coming and they were now following this and being led. Another idea would be, no, if they knew about the king of the Jews, they had to be Jews themselves in exile and it just means wise men. Or they were just wise men who, either through interaction with Jews or through studying scripture, among other things, wanted to find out more. We know the scriptures were available in Greek at that time. The Hebrew Bible had been translated into Greek in what's called the Septuagint.

So they could have read things there. What's interesting is there are some Jewish traditions that indicate there was a surge of messianic expectation and a belief that the coming of the Messiah was drawing near at that time. It's not as clearly confirmed that we can say definitively, but it seems from some of the ancient traditions that are preserved in the centuries following that there was really some anticipation of the Messiah coming in the first century.

So it may not be that the Jewish people were uninformed or unaware, just that this particular group received this specific information. We don't have information beyond what's written there, though. That's the only problem. And the Greek could be referring to pagan astrologers or simply to wise men. Yeah, I would kind of lean towards them being Jewish.

simply because uh the gospel was to be preached first to the Jews. That's not proof in itself, but That's what I would lean towards. Yeah, and certainly that can make sense. But again, he's being proclaimed as king of the Jews, and Matthew tells us in Matthew 6 his mission was first and foremost to Israel. Let's repeat it, Matthew 15.

However, Matthew 28 ends with, go make disciples of the nations. And you do have already in Matthew 8, when he heals the servant of a Gentile, of a Roman centurion, that he says, many will come from the east and the west. and will feast with Abraham in the kingdom of God, but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out.

So that could be, as I say, a reference, a way of Matthew saying, hey, hey, I am including the Gentiles right up front here in this message. He is Matthew 1.1, the son of Abraham and son of David. He is the Messiah of Israel. But he's also the savior of the world.

So that could be included early on. Again, thank you. It's a great question. I appreciate it. 866-366.

Three, four, truth. Let me just grab another Facebook question, and then we'll go right back to the phones.

Well, let's just see what is posted. Post it here. Uh here we go. Dr. Brown, I'm really struggling right now.

A lot in my life is going wrong, and I feel like my prayers aren't working. I can't pinpoint one moment in my life where prayers work. They cannot be explained with science. No divine occurrences have materialized in my life. My cat is really sick right now.

The symptoms are not good. I pray for him to be healed, but it's not working. I ask God for a sign and see nothing. I don't know what to do anymore. What is the point of praying for God to help me when I really haven't seen it thus far?

I appreciate others weighing in to help Tristan. But Tristan, if you're listening, Don't pray for signs. You pray for signs, you open yourself up for all kinds of wrong possibilities. What I would do is as I would. Fill my heart and mind with what God says in His Word.

I would fill my heart and mind with who Jesus is. I would fill my heart and mind with what Jesus has done for me. and what he asked of me and I would worship him and praise him and thank him. and ask him to give me a deeper assurance of eternal life. a deeper assurance of forgiveness of sins.

a deeper assurance of my relationship with God. And that I would, from that vantage point of confidence. And assurance. Then begin to build on that foundation. All right.

And if you do. and you honor the Lord and you continue to pray, you will see answers to prayer. over the years you will see God work in certain ways, most importantly, in change in your own life, but you will see it in undeniable ways.

So hang in there. Put your trust in the Lord alone. Don't let circumstances move you either way, and you will see. The hand of God in definite and clear ways. All right, let's go to Charlotte.

Charlie, welcome to the line of fire. Hello, doctor Brown. I have a question for you. Um I heard talk about earlier about the Nephilim and fallen angels and extraterrestrials.

So I've had this discussion with people before. Is it Possible that God, and who is creative, created other beings out in the universe that are not sinful since Satan was banished to the earth. to be judged. later. and they're exploring the way we would explore our ocean.

Why are people always attributing that they are a demonic and that they are they're, you know. It's possible, Charlie. It's possible that there are other beings God created that he didn't tell us about. other beings that never send and for whom Jesus did not have to die. It's possible.

I might assume they'd be included in the massive host of an innumerable company of angels. But let's just say that's not the case. The problem is that the vast majority of experiences that people have, say with UFOs or with alien abductions, the vast majority of those that have these experiences are into demonic kind of stuff. Or some kind of mysticism, or some kind of openness to other spirits. And the main people teaching and propagating these things tend to be on what you would call the dark side.

So that's what makes me wonder if these things are demonic counterfeits. Rather than real alien encounters. But that being said, in theory, Could there be other universes God created that he didn't tell us about? Could be, except we know that everything ultimately and all creation will ultimately worship God and bow the knee in worship to Jesus the Lord.

So, whatever happens, that's the ultimate climax. That's ultimately. where it's going. That much is sure. Hey, thank you for your question.

It's fire we want, for fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Let me answer some Facebook questions in Rapid Fire and try to take another call or 286-34TRUTH. Morgan. Hello, Dr. Brown. Can you give your thoughts on the current state of the Messianic Jewish movement?

What do you like, dislike, where can it see growth and what can it do to reach more Jewish people? There's so much that's wonderful in the Messianic Jewish movement, so much that's understood now that the Jews who follow Jesus are still Jews, that there's no reason to cast off the seventh-day Sabbath or the biblical calendar. That's wonderful, that's good, that's healthy, that's spreading in a healthy way throughout America, throughout the nations, and all over Israel to multiply hundreds and hundreds of congregations. What I don't like is congregations trying to prove how super-Jewish they are and getting more and more involved in Jewish tradition and minutiae of Jewish law. And I would say, by and large, those that do so have smaller congregations and are seeing less fruit.

The ones that exalt Yeshua, the ones that are unashamed of the gospel message of Jesus Yeshua, the ones that welcome the movement of the Holy Spirit, the ones that make it important to reach out to fellow Jews, those are the ones that will see the most growth. Let's see, Paul. Hi, Dr. Brown. I watched your last debate with Rabbi Freitag and many more, and I was wondering why nobody asked the question to Jews.

If Jesus comes back in the clouds in your lifetime, would you recognize him as your Messiah? I would like to know their answer. God bless you for your wonderful work for the Lord Yeshua. Yeah, there is a Jewish joke that the first question that they'll ask the Messiah when he comes is, is it your first time here or were you here before? A traditional Jew, this would be unthinkable to them.

They couldn't imagine it, they couldn't countenance it, a more liberal Jew might be open. They're not expecting him to come in the clouds. They're expecting him to be raised up among us and then be exalted as a teacher and then as a leader and then fighting the wars of the Lord and rebuilding the temple and regathering the exiles and establishing the kingdom on the earth. And they said, that's how we'll know it's the Messiah. But for sure, when he comes, it will bring great shock.

And for many Jews, it will be absolutely traumatic. But I believe that leading up to his coming will be the revelation of who he is. And hence, these very Jewish people will be crying out to him in repentance and beckoning him to come. Carrie, I recently had a conversation with a Jewish friend and I asked about the Psalm where David wrote, My Lord said to my Lord, and asked who David is talking about. She said the Hebrew does not refer to the Lord as God or the Messiah.

Can you elaborate on this? Yes. Psalm 110:1, it's Yahweh said to my Lord. All right, my I don't, not Yahweh said to my Yahweh. It doesn't say God there.

It doesn't say Yahweh again. Rather, Yahweh. said, so the one and only God said to my Lord.

So if David wrote the Psalm, as we understand from the New Testament, David is saying, Yahweh said to my Lord, Meaning his son, the Messiah, but because the Messiah would be greater than him, He refers to him as my Lord, so my master, in that sense my superior. If a court poet wrote it for David, as some other Jewish traditions suggest and some scholars believe, a court poet wrote it for David, the court poet was saying, Yahweh said to my Lord, David. The key thing is that Psalm 110 is a messianic psalm. It is prophecies either given to David as a prototype of the Messiah, or written by David about the Messiah himself. Joshua, do you believe in a literal six-day creation, young Earth?

If so, what is science? What about science stating otherwise? No, I don't believe that Genesis 1 requires me to hold to a literal 24-hour six-day creation. And I don't believe that... that it tells me not to.

I don't believe it's there primarily to teach me science, but to teach me about God, the Creator, whatever it states, I accept as true. I'm not a scientist. I've had young Earth creationists on my show. I've had old Earth creationists on my show. And I said, let the debate.

Continue. Carrie, another Carrie, please comment on the Jewish young man with the afterlife's experience speaking to the rabbis. I just haven't watched the video. I know I've been asked to many times. I just haven't watched it, so I can't comment.

Sam, some people say that Messianic Judaism is unbiblical because it subverses the message of Jesus with the law of Moses. Do you think that claim is not biblical? If someone taught... that the only way to be saved was by believing in Jesus and keeping the law of Moses. And for a Gentile to be saved, that they had to be circumcised and observe the law of Moses, that absolutely would subvert the gospel.

But that's not what Messianic Jews believe. Messianic Jews believe that Yeshua dying for us and rising from the dead does not stop us from being Jews. 1 Corinthians 6, if you're saved, circumcised, don't become uncircumcised. You're saved uncircumcised, don't become circumcised. Paul uses the word called there, clearly meaning called to salvation.

So every Messianic Jew I know. I'm talking about the main leaders and those in the movement. They all preach the same way. Salvation is a gift by grace through Yeshua the Messiah. But that God does not tell us now stop being Jews any more than Paul and the Apostles stopped being Jews.

But the law of Moses is not for our salvation. We are under a new and better covenant. Elaine, when will you do your program on the shack? Oh, I know I need to. I just.

I haven't seen the movie yet. Please define love. Ooh, please define love.

Well, of course. Of course, we know God is love in His very essence. Love would be Defined in different ways. On the one hand, a feeling of tremendous attraction, desire towards someone or something. I love that person, I love this.

It's also an act of self-assess where you say, what I care most about is your will. being, those would be different aspects. of love Yeah, and Tito, I posted the channel for folks to listen. I gave the phone number, but just posted the channel where folks can listen online. The lineofire.org if you missed any of this.

All right, let's try to get one more call. Loretta in Huntersville, thanks for holding. What's your question? I have a comment, Dr. Brown.

I I love your program. I've learned so much. But I I didn't want to call. because I I didn't want to be critical, but I did not like your program today because it's a sin to add or subtract from the Bible. And I believe today that we added to the Bible.

Let me read this to you. It's in Genesis chapter seven. A first And all flesh died that moved on the earth, the birds and cattle and beasts and An ever creeping thing that creeps on the earth and every man And I have an agreement with them today. Yeah, first, let me just say this, Loretta. Thank you so much for calling, and thank you for being so honest.

No, no, no. Number one, we said right at the outset, my guest, Dr. Heiser, that the book of Enoch is not scripture and should not be included in the Bible. Rather, it was something that was read by writers of the New Testament, and they were familiar with, and they preserved some of their familiarity, and that at the flood, aside from Noah and his family, Every human being was wiped out. including the Nifilim.

However, we read about the Nephileim afterwards because Genesis 6 says that these were men before the flood and afterwards.

So apparently these fallen angels, again, there were other fallen angels who then committed the same sin with other women, gave birth to this race of giants that the children of Israel. annihilated.

So yes, everybody was wiped out at the flood except for Noah and his family. God forbid anyone gets any other impression.

However, Genesis 6 indicates, and the rest of the Torah indicates, that there were others then that committed the same sin, other apparently fallen angels, copulated with human beings, produced this race of giants that were then wiped out. I hope we made that clear, friends. You can get the book. And exclusive CD interview with Michael Heiser, go to thelineoffire.org, check it out. Uh