A Dialogue with a Humanist; Therapy Dogs on Campus; and A Secular Rapper Calls out Pastors

I'm about to have a fascinating dialogue with a humanist. Join me right here on the line of fire.

Okay. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Isn't this striking? I was not aware of this when I wrote my open letter to Miley Cyrus, but she wrote a book in 2007 called Miles to Go.

So what she'd be about 14 years old there. And in my article, I referenced her 10 years ago.

So that would be... When she was fourteen, And according to a woman named Donna posting this on Facebook in the book Miles to Go, Molly Cyrus said that things that made her sad were people who don't know Jesus. And one of her goals was to read the entire Bible. Wow. Hey friends, Michael Brown here.

Delighted to be with you today. I've got some good news, an exciting interview we're going to have. 866-34Truth is the number of the call. Anything you want to ask me, talk to me about, question me on, challenge me on, get clarification on. That's the number, 866-348-7884.

So here's the good news. And a lot of stuff to talk about happening in the world around us. But first, the good news. I wrote an article oh Less than two weeks ago, why won't they debate me or even dialogue with me? Who are the they?

Who am I talking about? Growing up, if I would say something about they say my father, who was a lawyer in the New York Supreme Court, almost became a judge before he passed away. in 1977. He would say to me, Who who is they? Who who are they?

Don't just give a nebulous statement like that.

So, who are the they in Why Won't They Debate Me? or even dialogue with me.

Well, other public figures Journalists TV personalities, others, bloggers, whoever they are. who will challenge me. Or who will say, Hey, we want to talk in dialogue, and then when I reach out to them, silence. For example, For example, a a gay Jewish man Who's active in Jewish teaching and spreading the knowledge of Judaism, all being openly homosexual?

So, obviously, working on the more liberal sides of Judaism. He posted some outrageous things challenging me on my Twitter feed. And I said, well, let's talk. Come on, my radio show. He said, I'm not going to increase your platform.

I said, by God's grace, I've got a great platform already. I'm inviting you onto my platform. I'm giving you exposure. No. I said, well, tell you what, let's talk privately.

We can talk by phone. Silence. Or how about Montel Williams? Unless something's happened with him and he's inactive or unable to be participating. But I wrote a letter about his segment on Megan Kelly last year.

He wrote a response to it. I wrote a response to his response. My PA contacted his publicity guy, and Montel said, Yes, I want to come on the air with you. Let's discuss these issues. And then here's, I can't do it for like six weeks or something because of family commitment, some other things.

Then we'll do it. Great. We follow up. Silence. Well, there was a woman, didn't know who she was, but a liberal professor.

at a university writing for the very liberal Huffington Post. And wanted to interact with white evangelicals who voted for Trump. And even though I did vote for President Trump with reluctance, I said, okay, great. I responded to her article point by point. She wrote a lengthy article.

I wrote a lengthy response. I said, let's interact. I tweeted her before and after the article. Let's interact. My PA reached out to her, and another ministry reached out to her because I published on their website, all inviting her to dialogue.

She said, I want to talk to people from this perspective. I said, here I am, silence.

Well All that changed. Last week When I began to dialogue with an individual, a gentleman. Who had written an article that I took exception to, I wrote a response to him and tweeted it to him and said, Hey, you wanna come on my show and talk? He said, Absolutely.

So, a little bit later this hour, I'm going to be joined with the humanist, the science writer. who faulted the Methodist Church for using the Bible as a moral guide. Fascinating. We'll be right back. It's fire we want.

Oh, fire we want. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. If you went to college, wave at me. Just so I can see your hands. If you went to college, university, Wait, okay, great. I see those hands.

Thank you. Bop, I don't like to see your hands, but I can feel the waves a little bit.

Okay. Question, question. We're under pressure. during finals weeks and things like that. Yeah, probably, probably, a lot of pressure.

Maybe getting your last papers in and finals and things like that. Have you been under more pressure since you've been out of college or university? It probably so. General life, I would say, It's tougher than college or university. least my own experience through through undergrad and grad school, that real life uh excuse me, there's real life going on on college campus, but life after college and university to me is more challenging, tougher.

More ups and downs. More issues to deal with, more responsibilities. than when you're at college or university where a lot of the pressures Have to do just with peer pressure, relational issues, and have to do with the pressure of study and learning and things like that. But generally speaking, you don't have as many responsibilities then as you do afterwards. Maybe you're married with family, maybe you're working.

really hard on a job with high expectations, maybe other things in life where you have to make decisions, probably not living at home anymore and things like that, or living on a dorm in a dorm setting anymore.

So, yeah, there's pressure and stress in college. university. I think there's more pressure and stress in real life. Oh well. These days These days, We have to coddle our students because we don't want them to be under too much pressure.

Now for all my millennial listeners that despise this kind of coddling, good for you. This is the way to show a generation what it means to be a responsible adult, to be a man, to be a woman, to take things on and to say, hey, we can get through this. 866-34TRUTH-866-348-7-884 is the number to call. I bring this up. Because there's an article On thecollegefix.com by Jeremy Beeman from the University of Mobile.

Therapy dogs, chocolate, potatoes. Play-Doh. Universities offer ways to cope with finals. Yeah. You want to play with the play-doh over here because you've got an advanced physics final?

Yeah, I know it's tough. Hmm. A little bit odd there.

So let's go back to things that gave you peace and joy as little children.

Now that you are on your way to graduate from college and university.

Now that you are taking demanding tests and finals, how about if we do building blocks together? Maybe you're about to get your architectural degree. Maybe you're about to graduate with honors but now you can use the building blocks and build because the finals are too much pressure. Yeah, I have a problem with this. I have a problem with this.

Jeremy writes at the University of Pennsylvania, for example, several different student groups offered. Various study breaks, including a Zumba class. A video game stress reliever, and a chocolate and chocolate labs event. The Daily Pennsylvania reports. Student organizers did not respond to the college fixes' request seeking details.

An annual tradition at the University of Illinois offers students a reading day, place of classes. The university hosts a variety of non-mandatory events aimed at helping students study and de-stress. I don't know what goes into that. Maybe that's healthy. Penn State's de-stress fest included origami folding, we gaming.

brain massage music and more. According to the university's website, the University of Michigan offered play-doh and more. In an event build as a way to de-stress before final exams according to its Facebook page, other relaxes at the event included glitter, bottles, Legos. And dominoes, hey, Legos, even better than building blocks, especially, like I said, if you're an architect or something like that, that's you know, you're going to be a builder. Oh, okay, now.

L let me In all fairness, In all fairness, Put a positive construction on some of these things. Hey. Everybody needs to relieve stress. Hey. It's a healthy thing, but you're about to get into a very intense time where all your weeks of study and preparation are now going to culminate.

Some people do well with tests. I used to love taking tests. We had other family members that despised taking tests. For some, it's nerve-wracking. For some, it's exhilarating.

For others, it's just, hey, got to do it. But yes, it's it can be stressful if you don't study well or if you have to cram or if you're working a job and schedule's busy or you overloaded yourself with credits or whatever it is. Yeah, I understand it can be stressful.

So hey, let's just de-stress. We'll do better on the tests. For example, if you can get a good night's sleep before taking tests, you're apt to do better. Your mind will be sharper than if you hardly sleep at all. I mean, how many of you used to do that?

You cram all night, barely sleep, and then the next day your brain's in a fog because you weren't sleeping. You had to rely on extra caffeine to get you through. And after a week, you're ready to collapse.

So yeah, if there are ways, okay, everybody, let's just do some physical activity. And get our minds off test for a few hours and actually strengthen our brains by doing physical activity. Yeah, I understand that. Everybody's so tense. Every okay, take the pressure off.

I'm in India every year. And depending on what time of the year I've been there, many times children would come up to me and they'd say, Uncle, which is the affectionate, respectful way of addressing you, Uncle, could you please pray for me? I have tests this week. And there's tremendous pressure. among those in the schools to do well on the tests and and so on.

And I understand that. And if you could help them, all right, tell you what, we're going to take our mind off test for a little while and we're just going to do something else. I understand. I understand the logic behind that. But some of this plays into the entire mindset.

Some of this plays into the entire cultural mindset with microaggressions and safe spaces, and you can't do anything to upset the student, and they have to be able to have their safe space and the trigger warning if the class is going to mention something that could potentially be offensive or something like that. And then look, you got real life. You got real life ahead. That you got real life with real challenges and and play-doh is not gonna do it for you Now, look, some people, what do they have? Like this ball they squeeze or something like that that's that's de-stressing and you know little thing.

I understand that Play-Doh is helpful in that regard. Hey, keep your Play-Doh. But what I'm saying is this is not preparing you for real life. And yeah, Howard, you're absolutely right. The pressure and stress of going through military basic training are just a wee bit more than preparing for college exams.

There are a whole lot of things that are stressful. And challenging. And play-doh before your finals is not going to prepare you for when your boss sits you down in the office, says you are underperforming. And if you don't turn things around, you're out of a job, young man, young woman. All right, can I just get my play doh, please?

Would it be okay, mister Boss, if if I just brought my therapy dog in with me, because it helps me deal with stress? Oh yeah, you're gonna get a job, go from college to Wall Street. Oh, and bring the play-doh with you into the pressures of Wall Street. Yeah. You're going to go from college into the military.

Do they allow therapy dogs in the front lines of Afghanistan? Am I allowed That's the point. That's the point. There is a babying. of of these students.

There is a babying instead of saying, Hey, Let's get through this. You guys are first class. Let's get through this. This is why you came to school. Shine on these exams.

That's part of the growth is thriving under pressure.

Now check this out. And again, the many fine millennials out there that are solid citizens, that are mature for their age, that are contributing to society, God bless you. You're great examples. God bless you. And some of you that are struggling are struggling because of the way you've been raised by overindulgent parents.

Who didn't want you to ever lose? Didn't ever want you to get a bad grade at school. had you in sports leagues where no scores were capped so you wouldn't have your feelings hurt. It's not surprising if you're lagging. in emotional development.

But according to telegraph.co.uk, so the British Telegraph publication, millennials. Do not consider themselves, quote, grown up. until they are twenty seven. according to a new survey. Yeah, more than 55% said that feeling like a fully mature adult depended on reaching particular milestones in life, according to the survey conducted by nationwide current accounts.

So obviously over in the UK. Just over one in five, 22% of the 2009 surveyed said that people felt mature when they had their own children, while a further fifth 21% said it was when they moved out of their parents' home. And yet. It's increasingly common for young people to live in their parents' homes longer. and increasingly common to wait to get married and wait to have kids.

Isn't this then saying we are putting off the responsibilities of adult life and maturity? How about a little play-dough to make this feel better? The world O God of burning, cleansing flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. If you are Listening to people who are saying there's something wrong with transgender people and we have to make all these crazy changes. Maybe it's time for them to go.

That was the voice of Whoopi Goldberg speaking at the GLAAD Media Awards. GLAAD was originally an acronym for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. I changed it to the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Disagreement because they really want to censor those with opposing voices. And my friend and colleague Peter LeBarber suggested on the air yesterday that we could call this the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Advancing Disinformation. And Uh, Whoopi Goldberg is is Basically laying the line down in terms of Hey, transactivism, this is right, this is normal.

And those who oppose it have no basis for it. In other words, it's not a matter of, hey, live and let live. It's not a matter of you have your opinion, I have mine. It's a matter of you don't have the right to your viewpoint because it is bigoted and hateful. This is Michael Brown.

You're listening to the line of fire 866-342. Truth. Let's listen to Comedy Channel's Trevor Noah. Trevor Noah, as he's speaking at the Same Glad Media Awards in New York on May 6th. I'm honestly honored and humbled to be here today because I know, like many people, I haven't always been the most open-minded.

I've had to uncondition my conditioning growing up in a country and in a world where I was told. gay people weren't people. But everyone can grow out of it, everyone can change, everyone can become more if you just listen. It's scary, but it's not as scary as the journey most of the people in this room have gone through. We salute you at the daily show.

We thank you for allowing us into your world, which should just be our world. See, the the thing that troubles me with all this The thing that troubles me. is that On the one hand, The one hand. I appreciate People saying, look, there's diversity. We're different.

I didn't ask to be gay. I didn't ask to be transgender. This is the way I was created. That's what they would believe. And you need to be more accepting of me and don't condemn me as some terrible sinner.

I'm just being true to who I am, like you're being true to who you are by being heterosexual or whatever. I understand that. I appreciate that. I appreciate where they're coming from.

Someone's saying, hey, I fought being gay for years. I prayed against it. And this is who I am. And once I realize there's nothing wrong with this, and I can have a healthy relationship with someone of the same sex, and we can have a wonderful life together. You know, why would anyone reject it aside from religious bigotry?

I understand. the viewpoint, and the mindset. I understand that for an LGBT activist, they're simply fighting for to them what's a matter of basic equality. Basic human respect and dignity. I understand that.

from their perspective. the problem I have is that you are not allowed to have another perspective. You are not allowed to differ. You are not allowed to say You know, according to my faith, Homosexual practice is wrong. Or, according to my own beliefs, a kid should have a mom and a dad.

Or according to my own studies, It's uncertain why some people feel they're transgender and we should still look to see if there's a way to help them grow out of this. No, no, you are not allowed to have a contrary viewpoint. I mentioned a couple weeks ago after giving a talk at a college in North Carolina. And it was not in the heart of Charlotte or Raleigh, one of the bigger cities, just a little bit, maybe an hour out from there, so a bit more rural area. And I gave a talk on homosexuality as an innate and immutable.

They were having a series of different presentations. And there had been other viewpoints presented up to then, and it was time for mine. Everyone was very respectful, including those who opposed my viewpoint. Everyone was very respectful. There was nothing disruptive that happened on the campus, which I was pleased to see.

And I commended them for the respect with which they treated me in the midst of our differences. But what was interesting was at lunch we sat with a professor there, professor of religion and ethics.

So this is what he teaches. He teaches religion and ethics. He's also a pastor. And he told at the university, he could not say that Jesus opposed homosexual practice. If he had scriptural basis for it, historical basis for his views as a first century Jew, what would they believe?

If that was his conviction, which it is. He said he couldn't say that in his class. Even while teaching religion and ethics, he couldn't say it. on a rural North Carolina campus. I asked him, could he say the opposite?

if he believed Jesus affirmed homosexuality. And he said yes, that he could say. But he couldn't say that he opposed it. This has nothing to do with what the Bible says. It has nothing to do with religious truth or history of religion or anything like that.

It has to do with what's acceptable speech and what isn't acceptable speech. And more and more and more. We're being told. That simply differing with LGBT activism is a good reason for us to be silenced. and perhaps lose a job.

lose income. and whatever else might follow from there. There are many saying, absolutely right, bigots like you belong in the closet. And this is no different. than saying that someone that's black is inferior.

or someone that's Hispanic or Asian is inferior. This is no different. This is no different than the Nazis saying Jews were. parasites that should be destroyed. This is no different.

So you say in in other words, if I say, you know, I really think a kid should have a mom and dad and it's best to be joined to their biological mom and dad if possible, and you don't want to set something up intentionally from birth that separates them from from mom and dad when there are other choices. You know, that's bigoted. It's no different than being a Nazi. I mean, that's how extreme things have gotten.

Now, we've known this for years. We've documented it for years. It's just getting more extreme. And you get that when you hear from some of these major media people. And by the way, even though President Trump.

has not been strong. on gay and lesbian issues thus far. If anything, he has been favorable. to gays and lesbians in terms of executive order that was passed a couple months back, maybe three months back, that reaffirmed what President Obama had done in the federal workplace and then his last executive order falling short in that way. He's looked at as the ultimate enemy of LGBT people.

For appointing Jeff Sessions as Attorney General and having people like Ben Carson and Mike Pence around him.

So you don't even have to be aggressively against to get negatively branded. Hey friends, when we come back, I am going to speak with Clay Knaff. He's an award-winning journalist and he is a humanist. He wrote a book called Free God Now. Among other writings.

So we're going to talk in a moment. Uh believer to humanist. And see why we feel how we feel. And let me remind you: if you don't get my weekly emails, Which will tell you all the articles I've written, all the videos we've put out, which will link you to special discounted resources and special testimonies. Sign up today.

Go to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K. Drbrown.org. Sign up for the free emails today, and I'm going to send you a free e-book when you do. Seven Secrets of the Real Messiah.

All right, sign up today. Get your free e-book. We'll be right back with Clay Naff. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire.

So a couple weeks back, I came across an article in the Huffington Post written by Clay Farris-Naff, taking issue with the United Methodist Church for saying based on the Bible and church teaching that they would not recognize the consecration of a lesbian bishop. And Mr. Knaff is a humanist, took them to task for that, saying it's wrong for the church to use the Bible as a moral guide and gave reasons for it. We felt contradictions in the Bible and hypocritical use of the Bible by the church.

So I wrote an article in response and then tweeted it to him and said, hey, would you like to come on the radio and discuss it? And he said, sure thing.

So I'm delighted to have this opportunity to talk with Clay Farris Naff, award-winning journalist and the humanists, science and religion correspondent. He's been a Tokyo correspondent for United Press International and a freelance reporter for National Public Radio. Clay, great to have you on the air with us today. Thanks for joining us. Dr.

Michael Brown. It's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for inviting me. Oh, my joy. You have no idea how nice it is to talk with someone who differs with me because most folks don't want to talk.

I don't know if you run into the same thing, but delight to have the opportunity.

Well, thanks. I speak only for myself, but I feel delighted to have an opportunity to speak with somebody about differing worldviews. If we can't exchange ideas, we can't really embrace each other's humanity. Yeah, we agree on that, sir.

So just a couple minutes in this first segment, which is short, to find out more about yourself. Did you grow up? as a humanist or atheist agnostic, or has that developed over time? My parents were Christian, but they let go of their attachment to religion before I was born.

So we were nominally Christian, but I grew up without any religion in particular, and that perhaps accounts for my lifelong fascination with it. Got it. All right, so what is it that fascinates you with religion as a self-professed humanist?

Well, first of all, growing up, I felt a bit of envy for my friends. I had Muslim friends, Jewish friends and Christian friends, and they all seemed to have this activity that was meaningful for them. And even sometimes fun, and I was left out of it.

So at that point, there was curiosity mixed with a little envy. But as I became an adult and looks more deeply into it. I felt fascinated that people in differing parts of the world and sometimes even differing parts of a particular city have such profoundly different beliefs about the nature of the world we live in. And do you feel that any of this is positive, or since you don't believe in a creator God as revealed in the Bible, is it just people believing delusions?

Well, those are two very different questions, but let me say, first of all, I think religion. Has been a positive force in human affairs for many millennia. Although it has also been at times a terrible force and I think today it's a mix of both, but I work with religious people every day who are out there doing great good, and I have immense respect for them and for their beliefs.

So I'm not anti-religion per se. Uh what I oppose is what I've sort of Characterized as what I call old-time religion, which is really just a label for an authoritarian version. that thinks that religion, whichever one it happens to be, Uh is a rule book uh written by a strict supreme being and often used to threaten or punish other people. Got it. All right, so that's what we'll take up.

Is that an accurate view of the Bible or historic? Jewish or Christian faith, we can discuss that. And you write most regularly for the humanist, is that correct? That's right. And for my listeners that may not be familiar with the Humanists, what is that publication?

It's the magazine of the American Humanist Association. And humanists have a long tradition, some of it religious, but today nearly all secular. God o' Humanists are generally people who do not embrace any particular religion, but embrace a set of principles about loving one another and acting for social good. All right, great. We've got a lot to talk about.

Delighted to have Clay Farisnav on the line with me. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. I'm speaking with Clay Farris-Naff, award-winning journalist and the humanist science and religion correspondent. And we're having a discussion, not a debate, but having a discussion about what we believe, what we don't believe, and why.

So, Clay, help me just understand some things from your perspective, all right? And I'm sure these are questions you've thought about and worked through over and over again. But with most of my listeners being believers, being theists, believing in the God of the Bible, I want to just tease some things out with you. Your view of the origin of the universe, where do you stand on that? I'm a complete agnostic about the origin of the universe.

I think it's a deep and fascinating mystery. Uh there is one thing I frankly disbelief though. I don't believe any of the theistic accounts of the origin of the universe, and I need to define what I mean by that. Uh traditional theism Says that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving God who created the world. it seems to me that the world contradicts that assertion.

So I think the universe may have been intentionally created. It may even have been lovingly created. But I don't think it could have been created by an all-powerful, all-knowing Supreme Being. All right, so the old Epicurean trilemma there. All right, so let me since you brought that up, let me just dive in there with you for a moment.

Would you agree that often things that we pass through that seem to be the worst thing that ever happened can end up being the best thing that ever happened to us? On occasion, that's true. On occasion. And that sometimes going through pain or hardship helps us become. A better human being, or enables us to help other people.

So we may experience a loss, but something good can come out of that. Would you accept that? Yes, of course, but I also accept that there's needless suffering in the world. Uh-uh. Oh, okay.

From our perspective, no question. From our perspective, right now, a baby starving to death that starves to death while we're doing our radio show, in that sense, starved to death for no reason. In other words, the overall scheme of the world does not seem to be impacted for the good. My question is, though. As limited as we are in our own knowledge.

Could it be that an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God Created the universe knowing that the final outcome would be such that it would be worth it. and that millions of human beings would say it was worth it. Is that a possibility to you? Mm yeah. it doesn't seem like a logical inference to me.

If there is a supreme being, Then that being need not have put anybody through suffering to begin with, he could have just skipped. the end of the story and let everybody be angels. Ah, there's no need to con create imperfect beings in order to get to perfection. All right, from our perspective, correct?

Well, our perspective is the only one we've got. Right, right.

So, but our perspective also tells us that. Freedom of choice is important. Would you agree with that? Yeah. If you could right now, we could zap you and zap me.

And we become lobotomized, but totally happy. We can't make any choices. We have no free will, but we're happy. Would you like that?

Well, it's a really interesting question. I wouldn't choose that alternative. I mean, by definition, I would be happy if I were in that state. But that's not a happiness I would choose. Yeah, so from my perspective, and again, to just exchange these ideas and not push them in a debate way.

Okay, I just want to be sure, because everyone's different with the other. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. Go ahead. No, just to say this: that my understanding is. that obviously we prize our existence, otherwise there'd be much more suicide.

because we prize our existence and we prize our right to have self-determination, freedom, and that as I understand it, if God was going to create a world in which we would have freedom of choice. And we would have existence. Then there'd be consequences, but that something good could come out of it. That love is not going to be coerced, or love for God is going to be something freely chosen versus coerced. Hence, I see a universe that could have all kinds of pain, suffering, difficulty, many of these things devolving from choices we made, but then in the end, something good and wonderful coming out of it, beautiful forever.

I think I understand your perspective. And I will be the first to say that. I don't know what the world's all about. But as a humanist, I try to understand it through. reason through science through evidence and the evidence doesn't suggest to me that this world is uh set up on a course toward uh the sort of beautiful ending that you described under some sort of plan.

Instead, suffering seems to be very random Lightning strikes more golfers than terrible people. Earthquakes destroy people at random.

so do tsunamis. There just doesn't seem to be any moral sense to much of the suffering in the world. And that doesn't give me any confidence in the scenario you described. Right.

So from the purely scientific viewpoint. There are questions that you have. which leaves open the possibility of an intelligent creator. Just not the God of the Bible. All right, so say the origin of the universe.

The origin of life, the presence of DNA. things like that, the the fine-tuning of the universe, the fact that, as Einstein said, that we can comprehend it itself, it seems to operate based on mathematical laws and principles.

So the scientific end. leads you open to the possibility of intelligent creator. But the apparently random nature of human suffering and pain leaves you closed to the idea of the biblical creator. I think that's a fair summary.

Okay. And let me say, not just the biblical creator, but every creation story I've encountered so far. There are many. Mm-hmm. Right.

And and I'm sure you would agree that if you're going to compare, say, the Babylonian creation account to Genesis 1, you're going to have quite a difference there between them. But either way, I appreciate the broader statement.

So that's where The faith relationship part would come in. In other words, Based on scientific evidence, I too would agree that there's evidence, to me, very strong evidence, compelling evidence for an intelligent creator, for you possible evidence. But on the suffering end, because I've experienced the love of God. Because I've seen my own life transformed and the lives of so many others transformed, and I've seen God's help for people in the midst of incredible suffering and hardship, it makes it easy for me to believe the rest. Does that make sense to you?

It does, even though I don't share your view. I think I understand that. What I have seen of God working in the world is the force of an idea was in people. that gives them inspiration, hope, and maybe more power to achieve things than they'd expected. But to me, that's a psychological phenomenon, a very useful one at times.

But unfortunately also one that turns to terrible deeds at times. Oh, there's no question. That horrible things have been done in the name of religion. And there's no question that probably more people are being fed and clothed and helped right now in the name of religion.

So we understand in and of itself that that's not going to be the compelling proof. And have you ever heard accounts? for which you had no logical answer that you couldn't just attribute to a positive human factor within someone. I don't know what you have in mind, but I think I probably have. There are certainly open questions.

about um why some things happen. And, you know, they're explanations that may not be satisfactory for some things. But to me that That's interesting. I don't need to have a closed case for every mystery in life. To be convinced that the scientific narrative does a pretty good job of describing the world around us.

Got it. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate your tone, sir, for sure. Often there is extreme hostility. The way we often describe some of the new atheists writing, summing it up, is: there is no God, and I hate him.

Well, yes. People who have gone through a difficult process to get to An atheist world, you often have very strong feelings that I. don't have to share in because I didn't experience that. Right.

And it's interesting you put experience in there because it does shape us in many ways. I've talked to people who, just through their upbringing, were disappointed, lack of a father or lack of prayers being answered, and they became atheists. And then later they got into scientific discussion. But a lot of the atheism came out of an experience. Where was God when I needed him?

Why wasn't the church there to help me? And because of that.

Some people who feel that way, yeah. Yeah. So something that's true on them, and we'll come back on the other side of the break on this. I'll give you two examples. One is when someone's being operated on, say.

And during the sur after the surgery, they describe what family was wearing in the waiting room, or a shoe that was on top of the roof of the hospital. or what the doctors were discussing, those kind of things. Does that point to the evidence of a soul? And then, say, for example, folks like I work with in India, a friend named Yesu Padam, who was an atheist, alcoholic, basically involved in terrorist activity. hostile to any notion of God.

And he had a vision of Jesus and was instantly transformed and is one of the finest humanitarian servants you'd ever find in the world. Is that just to be attributed to Psychology. All right, we'll be right back with Clay Ferrisna. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm having a friendly dialogue with humanist journalist Clay Ferris Knaff. He is the science and religion correspondent for The Humanist. And we're talking about Belief in God.

Belief in the God of the Bible. Reasons why it makes sense and doesn't make sense. We're having a friendly discussion rather than a debate.

So, Clay, the question of human Consciousness, from what we understand, we have a self-awareness that's different than, say, a dog or a cat would have. And there are folks who Have described, in fact, scientists who became curious of this, where there were documented cases of someone during surgery where they said, My spirit left my body. And I saw the doctors talking, and they panicked at this one point, and they had this one machine, and they were fixing dials on it. And then I saw my family out in the waiting room, and they were crying, and my wife was wearing a dress of this color, and all the things get verified. And again, it just points to something beyond.

humanity or beyond just psychology. And enough of these accounts have been documented that it seems to be evidence, at least for some, that something's going on.

So how do you respond to evidence like that?

Well, I don't see that in the same way as you do. I don't think it adds up to A really conclusive case. And I think the general findings that science has made over the last. Century and a half, roughly, make it very problematic. What we know about Seeing now is that it's reflected photons hitting.

The retinas of our eyes and turning into electrochemical signals that our brain interprets.

So If there's a spirit, a soul, how does it intercept the photon? It's not material by definition.

So, what's going on there? If we imagine that there's something like soul stuff. that interacts with photons, then There should be a shadow on the wall where the soul is because the photons aren't getting through. It doesn't really make sense to describe the story that way. Does it make sense to describe it as a hallucination or a reformulated memory?

I think that's more likely. It would be interesting if we wanted to run an experiment on this. if we got a bunch of cooperating surgeons to put Um They a code word. On the ceiling of the operating room after the anesthesiologist is. done his work and then remove it before the patient recovers.

And if the patient could Read off that code word, then that'd be pretty interesting evidence. But we have to remember one other thing, and that is that In a world of close to seven billion people, Coincidences are going to happen a lot. Everybody has hundreds of experiences every day. times billions of people means that there's going to be some weird stuff It happens just by coincidence. And that's going to be shared with other people because it's weird.

You know, what's interesting, we we have a saying, uh when I pray, coincidences happen. Because it is interesting how one particular night I might feel deeply prompted. To pray about a particular thing or a person quite out of the blue, and then have this deep sense that tomorrow I'm going to hear from that person that I haven't heard from in three years. And sure enough, the next day they call, and the very moment I was praying, they were going through something that the very thing I was praying for. And those things happen enough that to me, I'd have to be unscientific in my approach.

to just attribute them to coincidence.

Well, but um Dr. Brown, you'd also, if you're going to be scientific about it, you'd have to record every single time that you do it because there's something called confirmation bias. Of course, you remember the times that you prayed. Or somebody to call you and they did, but can you remember the ones when you prayed and they didn't? That's much less likely to stick in memory.

Oh, well actually lots of folks keep prayer journals and they can document things. And yeah, I remember the things that didn't happen, but it's the rarest of rare times that I have a deep, deep, deep sense. That I believe God is speaking or leading a certain way. It's the rarest of rare times when it doesn't come to pass like that. Maybe once or twice in a year that I feel that.

The same with my wife.

So, again, it's an interesting thing that we talk about the reality of experience, and I'm no scientist, so I am absolutely not a scientist. My PhD is in ancient Semitic languages, and I am not a scientist. But I would guess, though, that if we're talking about a spirit/slash soul, that we're talking about something of a different realm, and therefore you wouldn't see a shadow. But what you are saying is that you're willing to look at scientific evidence and evaluate it as rationally as possible with a healthy skepticism. Exactly.

Right, which I can accept. And then radic. Yeah, rad.

Some say we need a hermeneutic of suspicion. And trust me, when I hear stories to this day, someone writing me and telling me about a miraculous healing, I say that's wonderful. But before I report it, unless it's a close friend or family member, we've tracked the thing for years together. And the doctors themselves are looking there and say, hey, this is a miracle. What can we say it's a miracle?

But otherwise, I always check. Is it accurate? Is there another explanation?

So I'm with you on that. But let me ask this. We've got two minutes, and then I appreciate you willing to stay on into the next hour. You are, in your approach and your tone, as irenic. A person as I've talked to, and yet I've forgotten what that means.

I'm sorry. Can you? Gracious, gracious, non-hostile, you know. amicable in tone.

So uh I'm very kind and I have to say the same of you.

Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate that. What you wrote, though, in the Huffington Post Gave me a different feel.

Now, perhaps it's just words on a page.

Well, partly that, but also it makes me angry when somebody who is. doing nothing that causes anybody else any harm that I can see, loses out by it. But I'm sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead. No, no, no, no.

I wanted to understand the why behind that because if you have a religious set of beliefs and these are sacred to you, and people say, my life has been helped immensely. Here, I was shooting heroin at the age of 15, radically converted at the age of 16. I wanted nothing to do with God. I didn't believe in Jesus. I'm raised Jewish.

And I was hostile. I don't think I would have lived to be 18 the way I was living. My life's radically transformed. We have missionaries graduated from our school doing humanitarian work, amazing work, helping the hurting, the poor around the world. A lot of good's come out of that.

I would have thought that your, based on our conversation today, I would have thought your perspective was, hey, if according to your religious beliefs, homosexual practice is wrong. We understand that, but I strongly differ. as opposed to almost attacking those beliefs.

Well, the deeper point in what I was trying to convey in that is that I think religious people of every kind Yeah, I should Take. a close skeptical look at their scripture. I think scriptures can be inspiring. and very do a lot of good in the world. But I think when they're read as Books of law and regulation.

I think they do a lot of harm in the world because they're snapshots from an ancient time. and they don't function well in our society today. Got it. All right, so tell you what, we come back, let's pick up. On that, is the Bible a snapshot from an ancient time that doesn't function well today in terms of moral guidelines or not?

My guest, Clay Ferris, and after going to continue to speak on the other side of the break for my latest articles and videos. Go to askdrbrown.org. I'm about to have a fascinating dialogue with a humanist. Join me right here on the line of fire.

Uh It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Is the Bible outdated? Is it a human production? with ancient laws, traditions, some of which are inspiring.

Some of which are Destructive. Should we look at it as a mix perhaps of Sharia law, and lofty idealism or is it God's infallible inerrant word do we err in our lives by following what is written in the scriptures Or by ignoring what is written in the scriptures. Clay Farris-Naff, an award-winning journalist, the science and religion correspondent with The Humanist. He is the editor of numerous books, including Free God Now. And we exchanged articles.

He wrote an article in the Huffington Post explaining why he felt it was very wrong for the United Methodist Church to use the Bible as a moral guideline. I responded to his article and then reached out to him and said, Let's dialogue. And he said he'd be delighted to do so. Clay, let's talk about for a moment your book, Free God Now. Free God from What?

Who is supposed to free God and from what? from ideologies that uh cause Great harm in the world was the essence of my message in that. I think religion is a natural part of human experience, although clearly a few of us at least don't. Uh live with it. But The way that it can be used can be benign in society, or it can be quite harmful.

And I think it's really a matter of. What people decide to do with religion. You asked a moment ago whether the Bible. Uh is uh the literal word of god that people should follow or whether they should choose their own. interpretation of it, I suggest that pretty much everybody Interpret scripture in ways that work for them, or else they take somebody else's word for it.

I think it's pretty much impossible to follow anybody's scripture. Uh word for word. without interpretation. Right, well obviously interpreting is important. You write an article, I write an article, we interpret what we each say, and yet we certainly mean things.

We have to probe each other sometimes. What did you mean when you said husband and wife have to do the same? I have no problem with interpreting in terms of seeking to understand what the author or authors intended, but ultimately. How do we decide what's good and what's bad? based on what standards, as a humanist, how do you work that out?

Well, that's a great question. First, I have to say that human beings have moral instincts. And this is quite evident because whether people were exposed to one religion or another uh throughout history people converge on very similar kinds of moral practices and taboos throughout the world. But those are far from sufficient to build a good society.

So, beyond that, we have to use our capacity for reasoning, for compassion. We have to use the information that we get from science to make New and really mutually beneficial and compassionate rules.

So the Bible is a great start for many people, but It has. A mishmash of rules, some of which have nothing to do with life today, others which seem to be at odds with our morals today. and some which I think we'd all want to embrace. All right, well, tell you what, we're going to come back. We're going to ask: can science tell us what is compassionate or moral or not?

If we have a certain shared moral conscience from whence did that come. And I will lovingly challenge Mr. Knaff in terms of his views about the Bible. All coming your way right here on the line of fire. Change the world.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm having a friendly discussion, not a debate, friendly discussion dialogue with...

humanist writer, humanist journalist, science and religious correspondent Clay Ferris Knaff. We're talking about the Bible and belief in God.

So, Clay, let's go back to a couple of fundamental things. A strict naturalist Darwinian evolutionist. would believe that that we are freak accidents, that we are the random end product of of an unguided evolutionary process representing the survival of the fittest that we are basically our brains are neurons firing In that sense, there's no good or bad, right or wrong. And yet you're talking about right and wrong. You're talking about science and compassion in the same breath.

So I don't know how those things mesh actually. Oh, well, the same process that gives rise to the complexity and variety of life, evolution, also gives rise to individual interests than in a social species like us, That plays out in the development of moral instincts. We need each other. And we compete with each other, and there have to be rules for how we do all of that. And evolution gives rise to those in us and to some extent in some other species, but certainly to a much greater extent in us.

But it's also about being human, though, is that we're able to elaborate on those to get past our. Strict evolutionary legacy and develop actual ideas and exchange them. But it's survival of the fittest ultimately. That's the fittest in evolutionary terms doesn't mean like strongest or best. It just.

simply means whatever group of genes gets into the gets the most copies of themselves into the next generation. And that's sort of mechanical. process that life rides on top of. All right, so let's come at it from this angle. Uh There the those in the Malthusian camp And this was something that Margaret Sanger believed in.

said that the world population is going to continue to grow and that ultimately human beings by the multiplied millions will die the most horrific deaths. They'll starve to death and human suffering will be unimaginable.

So you have to cull the population somehow for the good of the human race. And so for example, if you have lots of poor uneducated people living together in closely knit circles and close quarters and things like that. If there's a plague that breaks out, don't try to stop it because that's actually culling the race. Better that they die of a plague and that the population is culled rather than have this catastrophe. And this is in the name of good.

I don't think Margaret Sanger ever said anything like that. But I do know that it's a fact that that's how most of human history went until. Fairly recent times, there's something called the Malthusian trap, and you can. See, um A graph over time of population and wealth. Every time wealth began to build and people were able to have more children.

Then they'd overshoot the mark and famine would set in or. occasionally plagues and the population would drop again. Right.

So only in the last couple of centuries our populations exploded. Margaret Sanger embraced it in terms of abortion. That's the solution. And that's why you get rid of some of the human weeds, some of the ones that are less productive in society or that are going to be more takers than givers. My point is, if it's for the overall good of the human race based on an evolutionary survival of the fittest model, what is morally wrong with that?

To me, it's morally objectionable because every human being is created in the image of God and therefore is worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their appearance or their handicap or lack of productivity from the womb until their oldest days. But why not cull the race? What's wrong about that morally?

Well yeah. I think the only place where we meet. Disagree in what you're saying is first whether Margaret Sanger actually advocated such views. I don't know that. But more important, what is a human being.

I think if I'm hearing you right, you think that once uh a fertilized embryo An embryo, I'm sorry, once an egg is fertilized, that it's a human being. I don't see it that way. I don't think the evidence amounts to that. To me, personhood is the important concept at the beginning of life and at the end of life. But but again, oh okay.

My point, though, is, and just check out, do your research on Margaret Sanger and Thomas Malthus. No, what I'm saying is really not it's not controversial in that regard. It it's pretty as far as I understand, it's pretty well known that she embraced his his philosophy. Adopted ugly views, and then those views spun out of control. I utterly reject.

Eugenics as a practice inflicted on other people. Right, but you see, the thing I'm pressing here is that you're not doing it entirely on a scientific basis. You're doing it on an independent moral basis. Right, science can give us information that we can act on, but it's not a moral system itself. algorithm for discovering reliable uh patterns in the world.

Right, so science can tell you if a particular chord is discordant. but it can't tell you if if it sounds good or bad. Science can tell you that the sunset has these various colors and is caused by various phenomena, but it can't tell you if it's a beautiful sunset, correct? That's true, although science does have some interesting things to say about beauty, but let's save that for another conversation.

Okay, fine. Our essential point is correct: that science is a tool that gives us. Useful knowledge, but in itself, it's not a moral system. All right, so here, let's go back to the morality issue. Because what I'm pressing for is obviously we're created in the image of God and that even putting aside the baby in the womb for the moment, okay?

Yes, we differ on that, of course. I see personhood when I look at an ultrasound in the 4D and the baby's kicking in the womb and the parents have named it, and I absolutely see personhood. And then, so many premature babies now are surviving outside of the womb, and that keeps pushing the debate back. But let's look at it from a different point of view. I was reading a book by an Indian scholar, and he talked about a village they were helping out, you know, the poorest of the poor.

I've been to India 24 straight years and seen some things that are shocking to me as a Westerner. Poorest of the poor, there's a village and there's a little baby girl starving to death. And they keep trying to get the parents to care for the baby, and they seem indifferent.

So they actually get an injunction from the local government to take the baby out for care. And they bring the baby to a hospital. It's rehabilitated. They bring it into their home. And the baby's now healthy, strong, two years old, vibrant, full of life.

They give it back to the mother, thinking she's going to be so happy that the baby's healthy. The cycle repeats itself, almost starved to death. They rehabilitate it the second time, third time, starves to death. And what they found out was that this family, poorest of the poor, They already had a girl. They already had a daughter.

She can help with the chores and help with the other children. They didn't need another child.

So they had to calculate if she eats. Then someone else doesn't eat.

So someone has to die. She's the youngest, the least necessary. She'll die. Do you have a moral problem with that? Oh, yes, I do.

But I also have compassion. Yes. People who are in such terrible straits do sometimes have to make. incredibly difficult decisions. And uh I think it's morally wrong to sacrifice A child for the good of the rest of the family, because, like you, I think every individual.

has feelings. dignity and worth. Um but Uh I also Have tremendous compassion for people who have to face such a choice. Yes, agreed. that and the last thing I would do is just in a cavalier way condemn the the parents.

Obviously I say it's morally wrong, but it's fascinating that we agree that's morally wrong and yet it's certainly the parents are more thinking on the lines of Darwinian evolution and you're thinking more on the lines of a theist, just in my humble opinion. Oh, I think I I'm thinking of the humanist, let me say. But uh science informs my thinking, but it doesn't Rule my uh thinking or my views. Or anybody's, I hope. Uh it You know, if we take any ideology, including science, turned into an ideology called scientism, any.

Thing that's taken into an extreme ideology often has horrific results. We can't stray too far. from our basic compassion for one another. without bad things happening. Yeah, hey, I agree with you on that line, absolutely.

I had a feeling you might. I think. uh that you and I may have different worldviews, but I suspect We see the world and feel about the world in similar ways. Yeah, absolutely.

So we'll come back. We've got one last segment, sir. And we'll focus very specifically on the Bible. and some of the moral imperatives on the Bible. For good, Or forbid.

Again, we're not having a debate, friends. We're having a friendly dialogue. And hopefully, this is proof that you can sit with someone with a fundamentally different worldview, religious view, have a friendly conversation, and actually learn from each other in the process in the midst of your disagreements. We'll be right back. Get into the world.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flames. Say It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. I've got a few more minutes with Clay Farris-Naff. We'll try to grab the entire interview. We've been speaking now for the better part of 45 minutes. We'll grab the entire audio and put it up separately for you to listen to if you missed any part of our interaction.

Again, if you're just tuning in, Clay Knaff is the science and religion correspondent for the humanist.

So, Clay, let's focus specifically on the Bible. In my view. Understanding the Bible holistically meaning that we would say understand the Old Testament in light of the full revelation of Jesus in the New Testament.

So, for example, in Old Testament law, if an Israelite was sinning a particular way, there might have been a death penalty under that theocracy. Whereas in the New Testament, there might be excommunication from the church. In other words, an adulterer in ancient Israel would have been put to death. Today, an adulterer in the church, if they won't repent of their adultery, would be disfellowship.

So, let's just say that there's a holistic way I'm reading the scripture. I'm not going to say that we should, if our neighbor next door is a Canaanite, that we're supposed to exterminate that person. All right? Go ahead. All right.

So, the point is that I've found over 45 years now of following Jesus, incredible wisdom in scripture that it goes beyond my understanding. And that when I live by its moral imperatives, when, say, husbands love their wives. Wives respect and honor their husbands, when parents raise their children a certain way, when children honor their parents a certain way. I've seen healthy family, or for example, recent studies indicating that cohabiting couples have a 50 to 80 percent higher likelihood of divorce than non-cohabiting couples. Or if you live by the wisdom of Proverbs, you're not going to die of a sexually transmitted disease or of alcoholism or things like that.

That God's ways are ways of life and goodness, and that from a scriptural viewpoint and a practical viewpoint, I see it best for man and woman to be together, see that that's what we're physically created for, that it's best for a kid to be joined with a mother and father, and that you feel, though, when I'm using the Bible in that way, it's somehow unwise or potentially destructive.

Well, here's what I think. I know that the Bible can be a great inspiration for good. As I said earlier, I work with people every day who go out in the world and do a lot of good for others, and they're inspired by the Bible to do that. I think the problem comes when you look at it as a comprehensive rule book that doesn't require anything more than looking up a particular chapter and verse. If the Bible were a book of laws, the least you'd expect is that it would be clear and comprehensive and apply to everybody fairly.

And it does not. It's got laws that are very specific to one time and place. It doesn't address things like driving while texting. It doesn't tell us whether anesthesia is good or whether that would. The suffering that we'd experience without it is necessary to some greater good.

And it didn't get out. much of humanity for hundreds and hundreds of years.

So regarding it as The law book makes no sense to me, and it inflicts a lot of misery in our contemporary world. All right, so let's press in on that.

Something can be true even if it didn't reach the whole world, correct? Yes, but it can't be fair in that case. And you'd expect fairness. From a supreme being giving out. rules for everybody to live by.

Right, so we would understand it that those who have the rules are more accountable than those who don't have the rules.

So that's the first thing. In other words, Those within a family that understand the family structure and guidelines have more expected of them than the neighbor who's being raised by absentee parents.

So, in terms of fairness, that's how we look at it. And we also look at it not just as a rule book or law book, but as ways of life that God made us and designed us, and He knows what's best for us. But let's agree that the Bible does not explicitly address the issue of, say, anesthesia, okay, or it does not explicitly address the issue of a child. born with ambiguous genitalia. and defective chromosomes, exactly how to classify that individual.

I mean, it may in passing. Let's agree with that. But when the scriptures say don't commit adultery, is that any less clear? where it says don't murder, don't steal, is that any less clear because it doesn't address anesthesia?

Well The adultery case, I think, is pretty straightforward, pretty clear. Do not murder was rendered as do not kill for a long time, which led to lots of disagreements over capital punishment and various other issues. To me, the point is: if God wanted to communicate a set of rules to everybody, God's capable of doing that. He could have communicated and continued to communicate. with everybody in the world.

The idea that he set it all down in a book in one place. really isn't very precise as to me.

Well, we did agree that there are certain universal things written in our hearts, correct? Yes. Okay, so in that sense, he did put morality and consciousness and conscience within every human being. And then he works with us and through us. We're his co-workers, according to Scripture.

So he now gives us a message. to spread to the whole world, but it's not primarily a rule book. It's a message of how to come into right relationship with God. Yes, he is God, so we're here to serve him and live for him. But what we believe is when we go out with that message about forgiveness of sins through what Jesus has done on the cross, and here's how you can know God as your Father, we come to know him and love him.

And yes, he's God, so we're here to serve him in that respect. And we find great guidelines for living as well. But it's not primarily a rulebook. In any case, We share in the responsibility of spreading this message to the rest of the world, and that's what we seek to do. I understand that, and I suggest that we all have a responsibility to think through.

What's right and wrong. In terms of what we know, because let's face it, everybody ignores a lot of the rules in the Bible. I assume. Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that you don't worry about whether clothing is of mixed threads and so on. You mentioned a moment ago that.

The New Testament provides new ways of dealing with some things.

So you're presumably not. taking too seriously the verse in which Jesus says Not a jot nor a tittle of the law has changed. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. That should not be a reason to adopt Leviticus in modern life. But there are other Christians who do.

There are Christians who think we should. Reinstall the death penalty for just about every transgression the Bible named. Yes, and by the way, I do take Jesus' words very seriously in Matthew 5:17 to 20, but I believe that he's saying the law also had a purpose. In other words, that God gave laws to Israel, certain laws, to keep them separate from the nations, like dietary laws and mixed garments, and other things he gave based on universal moral prohibitions. And you're right, King James did not accurately translate Lotir Tzach.

They translated it as do not kill, or thou shalt not kill, where it should be murder. Of course, it's been translated properly, and people read the original as well. But all that to say, We're out of time. Perhaps we can continue the conversation another day. You've given me an hour of your time, which I really appreciate it.

I know how busy you are. But hopefully, you don't mind if some of our listeners will be praying for you on a regular basis. Is that all right? I take it as a benign act. I thank you very much for giving me this time to talk with you.

It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. And may the God you don't believe in make himself real to you. Thank you so much, sir. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I was not familiar with Kendrick Lamar until a couple of days ago. He is a chart-topping rapper. And he is calling the... Churches of America to account for not preaching enough on divine judgment. And saying that the messages and What's being put forth in our churches, they're lacking.

They may talk about hope. They may talk about someone's season is approaching, your breakthrough is near. But they don't adequately talk about God as quoted jealous God of discipline. and obedience. Is he right?

many cases I say the answer is yes. Welcome, friends, to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown, and here's the number to call: 866. 34 Truth. It's 866-348-7884.

You don't have to tell me what church you go to. You don't have to tell me what denomination you're a part of. But in your circles. the church you attend. the Bible study you attend.

Do you feel? that you are getting a balanced message. of both the love of God and the fear of God. Do you feel that there is adequate talk about coming judgment? Would you feel that you are just getting exposed to a lot of positive, positive, positive, positive, positive, more of a self-help message?

866-34TRUTH. If you watch Christian TV, If you listen to Christian radio, is it different on radio as opposed to TV? What are you hearing? Are you hearing messages that Stir you that move you to action. Not just that encourage you.

Have you left a church service? or sat down after listening or watching a broadcast and you're literally shaking on the inside. Because you realize, oh my God, there's a coming judgment. Even if you know yourself you're secure in the Lord, have you been stirred to weep? for a lost and dying world.

that is hell bound without the Saviour. Is there anything that would cause someone visiting your church to revere God? To realize that he's not just like the man upstairs. You ever hear someone getting an award or winning some event and they want to thank the man upstairs, it's almost the guarantee that they don't know the Lord. Because when you know the Lord, You don't just call him The man upstairs 866-348-786.

Eight eight five. Yeah. Uh Kendrick Lamar said this I went to a local church some time ago and it appalled me that the same program was in practice, a program that I had seen as a kid. the few times I was in service, praise, dance, worship, which is beautiful. pastor spewing the idea of someone's season is approaching, The idea of hope He said, after being heavily in my studies these past few years, I finally figured out why I left those services feeling spiritually unsatisfied as a child.

I discovered more truth, but simple truth. Our God is a loving God. Yes, he's a merciful God, yes, but he's even more...

So of a a God of discipline, obedience, a jealous God. You know, in Romans 11, 22, Paul urged us to consider both the goodness and severity of God, and Kendrick Lamar wrote, So, in conclusion, I feel it's my calling to share the joy of God, but with exclamation, more so the fear of God, the balance. Knowing the power and what he can build and also what he can destroy at any given moment.

Now what's fascinating. What's fascinating is Kendrick Lamar says he's a believer in Jesus. And apparently he has black Hebrew Israelite connections. Yeah. Family.

that is into the black Hebrew Israelite message, and that apparently has influenced some of his thinking as well. To read my latest article, A Secular Rapper Calls American Pastors to Account, go to askdrbrown.org. It's my latest article. Check it out. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Michael Brown here. I'm going to go to the phones momentarily. Had a great one-hour interview with a humanist science correspondent, religion and science correspondent, writing for The Humanist. We had a great one-hour conversation dialogue.

I'll take some calls on that. That was leading right up to this. Uh Time joining all of you on the air now and many stations that join us for the last 30 minutes of the broadcast, 866-34TRUTH. Before I go to the phones, Uh In my article, A Secular Rapper Calls American Pastors to Account, I quote from my forthcoming book, September of this year, Du Out. Really excited about it.

Just had a great talk with the marketing team about the book, and so excited to get this out to all of you in America and around the world. It's called Saving a Sick America: A Prescription for Moral and Cultural Reformation. And one of my favorite chapters in the book to write. Was the chapter called Restoring Thunder to Our Pulpits? Restoring thunder to our pulpits.

And in that chapter, I wrote these words. Let the truth be told. There's very little thunder from our pulpits, very little preaching that creates an atmosphere of holy reverence, what the Bible calls the fear of the Lord. Very little that challenges us and confronts us and stirs us and awakens us. Very little that equips us to endure hardship or to be courageous or to confront the culture or to live a sacrificial life out of love for our neighbor.

Many of our leaders preach a toothless, pep-talk gospel that fits in perfectly with our convenience store quick-fixed Christianity, promising all kinds of benefits without any requirements. What a deal! Who could refuse it? No wonder we are producing consumers rather than disciples. What else can we expect when we so studiously bypass the cross in so much of our preaching?

What else can we expect when we preach God the genie rather than God the judge? Is it is it not the truth? in terms of the messages that come from so many of our pulpits across America. And Charles Finney, Said this in an 1873 sermon. And I affirm these words, and I quoted at the beginning of my chapter, Restoring Thunder to Our Pulpits, in my new book coming out in September: Saving a Sick Prophet.

America Prescription for Moral and Cultural Reformation. Finney said this. Brethren, Our preaching will bear its legitimate fruits. If immorality prevails in the land, the fault is ours in a great degree. If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it.

If the public press lacks moral discrimination, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in religion, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that the very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it.

Let us not ignore this fact, my dear brethren, but let us lay it to heart and be thoroughly awake to our responsibility in respect to the morals of this nation.

So said Charles Finney in 1873. And yes, the pulpit was more influential in his day than in ours. But I believe that what he said remains largely true if America is in serious moral and spiritual decline. Many of our preachers are partly to blame. And so I say it is terrible.

Time that we restore thunder to Our Pulpits. eight six six three four eight Seven. Let's go to Ernest in Charlotte, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, sir.

And I want to say I hope you're having a great day today. Thank you. Having listened to the interview with you and the previous person who were online for an hour, Yeah. I guess I've not understood him what he was saying, but if I actually understood what I understood, I think there is a contradiction. First of all, he did a book says Free God.

And if I understood that he doesn't belief of God, then Much What kind of God is he talking about free? Yeah. Yeah, that's the first thing. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a legitimate question.

What he's saying is, okay. Maybe there is a God. But he's not the God of your holy books, and you need to free him.

So he's not an atheist in a strict sense, saying that there cannot be a God or there cannot be an intelligent designer, but he's saying that if that being exists, It's not the God of the Bible, obviously, right? say he's 100% wrong on that. But yeah, it could sound contradictory. If there is no God, what God are you freeing? But that's the way I understand it, that there could be this divine being, but he's not who you think he is.

So don't restrict him with your antiquated beliefs.

Okay. So, um Thanks for making me understand that as well. And I would like to just add up to where you actually tried to ask Kim. If somebody got sick and were watching the E hour and apostle or whatever, and the person started to say, Okay, why they were in coma or whatever. They throw it themselves the For their families that are wiped across and I fucked, you know, and one thing I have to ask him if he's listening or whatever is that.

Um What what how does he classify dreams? What part of his body dreams? Is it his physical body that he sees on earth here or is the soul? Because definitely if you have a God as it is, and he has told you everything and also promised there will be A life after death and judgment, he and everything he said basically thousands of years ago, everything he said coming into a reality. He called him Fledge to now mean natural disasters.

I don't get it how he would say there are natural disasters when, as a matter of fact, These things were prophesied by Christ. Yeah, and yeah, just to jump in, you know, the fact that Jesus said there'd be earthquakes and things like that, that would not. address his moral question. of how could a good God create a world in which you have a parent needless suffering.

So in that respect, sir. I I would I would say that would not matter. And he'd say, well, you've got prophecies that came to pass, others that didn't come to pass. But scientific evidence, to me, it is scientific if you say this person. was in a coma in their room, and yet heard conversations of people in the car driving up To see him, how did that happen?

When you start to document some of the details, then it becomes, yeah, you can't just say this is coincidence or projection. How did that happen? And I was actually reading a book by a scientist, and this is part of what began to push him. to first the recognition that there is a human soul. that there is something just beyond the function of the brain and the body, And then that was part of what led him ultimately to believe in the existence of a God.

Hey, Ernest, thank you for calling. I appreciate it. 866-34TRUTH. What about? Preaching on the truth of God, the holiness of God, the judgment of God, the justice of God.

Do we do it enough? From our pulpits. Let's go to Plano, Texas. Tracy, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Doctor Brown.

So no, I I do not think that we hear Enough about the Of the Lord. And I believe that it was something that the Lord brought to my attention. just for that reason to start. Uh recognizing that there's a lack of that in the church. And so I started doing, you know, research on it and started seeking out just uh Books, and there really are none.

Started looking at messages on YouTube, and I did find some great teachings by John Bevere. And Neville Johnson. Um And so it led me to just seeking out the scriptures and I found several. Matter of fact, in La Isaiah 11, One through three, it talks about the seven spirits of God. And The third verse is what really struck me and uh John Bevere kind of brought that out.

He said that defense delight in the fear of the Lord. And um Chapter 25 of Psalms talks about the man that fears God is the one that He will show His covenant to. And so there's, you know, there's great secrets and mysteries that the Lord wants to reveal to his people. but I believe that it comes only when we can trust you. You with those kinds of things.

And if that kind of honor and reverential fear is not there. Then that's why, you know, I feel that there is not enough, you know, the revelation of certain things that he wants to, you know, give us in this last hour. It's not coming forth. Like it could be. You're 100% right on all accounts.

John Bevere has preached on the fear of the Lord often over the years. There are other leaders who have, but often few and far between. And we're not talking about a servile fear. You were very careful to say reverential fear. A servile fear is what leads when we come to know the Lord and His love.

A servile fear is what Someone goes through that has a totally double-minded, fickle, violent employer, and they don't know if the person is going to scream and yell at them or throw things at them from one day to the next, or a child of a drunken father, is the dad going to strike them or hug them? They don't know. No, no, we don't have that kind of fear. But we have a reverential fear because we realize who God is, we realize his holy standards. And yes, the secret of the Lord, meaning that the inner council, those things that he shares with those close, that is with those who fear him.

There is a reverential fear that is healthy and life-giving and in full harmony with the love of God and it is sadly lacking in the church today and certainly in the culture. As a whole, we'll be right back. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends, on the line of fire, 866-348-7884. By the way, before I go back to the phones. Heat Street.

Ian Miles Chung reporting. on May 6th. Fury over Wonder Woman protein bar promotion that's quote insensitive to fat people. Yeah, uh-huh. In a sand world, Wonder Woman would be a natural fit for partnership with a fitness product.

The producers of the upcoming female led superhero film have teamed up with Think Thin, a fitness brand that delivers protein bars, smoothie mixes, and an assortment of other products geared towards fitness buffs. After all, Wonder Woman is the epitome of feminine strength. The new promotion came after the movie's producers at Warner Brothers were accused of underselling the film, which prompted accusations of misogyny from feminist critics. Unfortunately, he writes, we don't live in a sane world and social justice warriors keen on spreading the misguided belief that you can be healthy at every size are throwing a conniption over the promotion. The issue of fat positivity is at the source of their complaints.

They're complaining about advertising with Wonder Woman, Think Thin, Fitness, Protein Bars, and Smoothie Mixes and Other Products. This is offensive to fat people. This is insensitive to fat people. And everybody can be healthy at every size. Not true.

Not true. If you're 400 pounds overweight, you're not healthy. You're not healthy. If you're obese, over time you will, 100 pounds over, 50 pounds over, over time if you're obese, you will have many health-related problems. And it's good if someone says, hey, can we help you get more fit?

I know it's tough, sometimes really hard to lose weight, but can we help you and encourage you? That's now It's not fat positivity. Excuse me while I do this. There we go. All right, let's go to Rock Hill, North Carolina.

Steve, welcome to the line of fire. Oh, okay. There was a buzz on the line. I think you said Rock Hill. I encountered a Facebook group called uh Rethinking Hill, and it might surprise you.

It seems like there's a lot of ministers in it. Is it our job to rethink how and and whether God is that hateful and Annihilation could be true. You know, is it our job to rethink hell or is it our job to preach hell? Our job is to preach what Scripture says, Steve. But I have no problem with people re-examining what scripture says.

In other words, I just want to preach what God's Word says. I don't want to go beyond it. I don't want to hold back from what it's saying. I would say our big, big problem Our big problem today is failing to preach what is written. to what the Word of God says for sure.

However, I'm all for re-examining. Does the Bible speak of eternal conscious torment? Is that the best way to understand Matthew 25, 46 that speaks of eternal punishment? Or passages in Revelation 14 and 20 which speak of torment going on forever and ever? Does the Bible speak of the final destruction of the wicked?

The wicked perishing, John 3:16, Matthew 10:28, God destroying both body and soul in hell. Is there some type of annihilation? I have no problem with Christians studying the issue afresh. Know what you believe and know why you believe. believe it.

I am all fine. for that. No problem whatsoever. uh with people studying the scriptures afresh. And here's what I would say.

to those who want to quote rethink hell to those who want to Work out, does the Bible speak of conscious eternal torment? Does the Bible speak of final destruction? Here's what I'd encourage. And by the way, if you go to my digital library on our website, thelineofire.org. Just search on the digital library the question of hell.

An eternal punishment. All right, so go to thelineofire.org. And just you'll see search. Type in the question of hell and eternal punishment. I speak with Edward Fudge, the well-known author of the book The Fire That Consumes.

Here's what I encourage. You must Take hold. of the reality of what Scripture says. in a very strong and certain way, so that it shakes you. Whatever is coming, Be it.

Eternal conscious torment. or for those who would argue that there is a final destruction of the wicked. It is absolutely dreadful. It is. Irreversible.

And it is of eternal consequence. Let me repeat those three things. wherever you come down in terms of your final analysis of what Scripture says. What Jesus speaks about repeatedly, what other biblical authors, Old and New Testament, speak about repeatedly, the final coming judgment, it is one. Absolutely dreadful.

Two. Irreversible. and three of eternal consequence. Meaning. Meaning.

That You are talking about something that will last forever and ever. If someone is destroyed and cut off from the presence of God or if someone is conscious and being tormented, you are talking of something of eternal consequence that is irreversible and is dreadful and should drive us to our knees and drive us out to share the good news along with our great love for people and wanting them to come into the knowledge of God.

So, Steve Lots of books are being written on this. Lots of discussion. Much of it, I believe, is based on humanistic thinking. Much of it, I believe, is based on our distance from the God of the Bible and the Bible of our God.

Some of it is based on a fair reassessment of what Scripture says, and I'm all for examining it. and debating it. But let me say it again. Whatever our conclusion, if we're going to be true to Scripture, it should drive us to our knees with a burden for the lost. It should give us further incentive to share the good news.

I had people call and say, I don't believe in eternal punishment anymore, but now I can share the gospel much more freely because it overcomes a big objection. And I warn people about coming judgment. And others have thought, well, why bother to warn anyone if there's not eternal conscious torment? I understand you have these different reactions. The question is, what?

does scripture say? And let me repeat. The fate of the lost is dreadful. is irreversible and it is of eternal consequence, that is pretty heavy. Stuff.

Hey, friends, out of time. I wish I could get to more of your calls, but want to do my best to answer as clearly as I can. Remember to go to the website thelineoffire.org, check out my latest articles and videos there. And if you haven't signed up yet to get my free e-book, We'll send it out to you immediately. Seven secrets of the real Messiah.

Just when you go to my website and sign up for our email list at the lineofire.org. That book is coming your way. May the blessing of the Lord be upon you.

Next time change the world. Game to the world.