Should We Engage in Interfaith Dialogue with Muslims? And a Debate Between Robert Spencer and Dr. James White.

An interfaith dialogue between a Christian leader and a Muslim in a mosque and in a church. Is this the wisdom of God? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well the article is loud and clear and bold. When I printed it out, even in small print, it was like eight pages long. I'm not going to mention the author's name. I invited him on the air. He declined, but I have called him out for this article.

Facts reveal James White is an Islamic dupe. And clueless evangelicals are desperate. to save his credibility. Nothing could be further from the truth across the board. And today you're going to be edified.

Your eyes are going to be open. And I believe you're going to be blessed and stirred with further outreach to the Muslim world. This is Michael Brown. You're listening to The Line of Fire. Without further ado, I want to bring on the air my esteemed friend and colleague, Dr.

James White. He's been on the air with me numerous times. I've been on his dividing line show. We are brothers in the Lord with theological differences along the way, but deeply devoted to the same Lord, the same God. And I deeply appreciate my brother's heart to reach the Muslim world with the gospel.

James, welcome back to the line of fire. It is great to be with you. It's been a little while. I think it's been quite some time, I guess. Yeah, I think maybe the last time you were here face-to-face in the studio with me.

I think so. Yeah, we did a whole uh whole section there. It's been uh been quite some time since I taught that was January of last year, so it's been been a while, but I appreciate the opportunity of having me on because uh these days um You'll end up paying for it one way or the other. Yeah, well, that's just fine. And I've been very public on Twitter and other social media calling people out for what I say are slanderous attacks against you because most of my listeners will not be familiar with some of the names of the people attacking you.

I'm going to leave that out and we will just get the facts out as we do. But let's just talk about this. What's your history in terms of Islamic outreach, debate, and what about study and background?

Well, uh obviously I've been involved in doing apologetics uh and debate specifically since 1990 and we began dealing with the subject of Islam in two thousand and six. The debate that I did with uh Shabir Ali at the Viola University. Um Sometime couple years ago uh Islam became the majority, in other words, the well, not actually the majority, but The most of any of the groups I've debated became uh Islam, which has included uh Mosques. Uh the Ababa Chrysidic moss and Arasmia, South Africa, the Juma Masjid in Durban, South Africa. one week after the attack on the uh Benghazi consulate.

Uh I was debating uh in the East London mosque. which is one of the largest moths. in Europe. uh on whether Muhammad's prophesied in the Bible, for example. Yeah.

I I remember very clearly as we were walking out These young Muslims. Men were with me, and they were going, You've got to come to Birmingham. We've got to have. Debates in Birmingham. And so we've had some.

Tremendous opportunities. Every time I go to South Africa, I just did a debate. on the crucifixion of Jesus. uh in Linasia, South Africa at the mosque there. We always have those kinds of encounters.

And yet As you know, Michael, uh My desire is to adorn the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not simply to. decimate someone, destroy someone. I want to actually communicate the gospel in a meaningful fashion, and I believe that the only way to do that, if you're communicating the gospel of grace, and you are not gracious, there is an inherent contradiction. right at the start, which is going to be create a artificial barrier.

uh to the presentation of what you're saying. And so Uh I've always believed that in dealing with anybody, whether it was the Mormons, the first group that I was dealing with a long time ago. Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever, I've always gone to the original sources to learn what they themselves believe. I want to know accurately and I want to understand why they believe. Right, so in order to have a fruitful dialogue, debate, discussion, understand what the others believe.

Speak to them graciously, respectfully, and then tell them the truth. Right between their eyes. What's controversial about that? Oh, well, we'll see. We'll be right back.

Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Hey friends, if you have a question you'd like to ask Dr. White directly, If you've heard some of the recent criticism and attack, I mean, I'm looking at stuff i mean that's that's ugly i've i've called folks out on this and told them it's it's slander James White has sold out the clear mandates and restrictions of the Word of God for the sake of his own self-promotion. I mean ugly, sick charges like that. People like this should be marked out. to believe any of this.

Call in because we're going to set the record straight. I'm not out here to embarrass anybody, which is why I'm not even mentioning other names. Simply dealing with facts and truth for the sake of the gospel.

So the controversy then comes, James, not through you going into mosques and debating Muslim leaders, and you've done it more than anybody that I know, and you've debated some of the world's top Muslim apologists right on their home turf, so to say. But you did an interfaith dialogue with a Muslim leader.

Some have called them a jihadi Imam, so we'll talk about that. In interfaith dialogue, he said he's not an expert in Christian beliefs, so he didn't want to do a debate, but an interfaith dialogue in a church where the Imam got to say what he believed, and then in a mosque.

So give us the background to that.

Okay, the gentleman is Dr. Yaserqadi, and I have learned a lot from Dr. Qadi over the years. He is a conservative Muslim. In fact, he came from a Salafi background, so a very, very conservative perspective.

He's an expert on the Hadith, and so I've listened very carefully to his lectures on Hadith studies and things like that. And so I had had some communication with him over the years. He had been willing to provide me with information. He had sometimes contacted me to ask questions. from from his perspective about different Christian groups and things like that.

Uh he had been uh uh attacked, he he has uh stood up against ISIS. He has been marked for death by ISIS twice. in their published materials. And he himself has moved away from the Solafi perspective as he's gotten older. He's just finished a PhD at Yale University.

And so to make sure long story short I was going to be going to the Memphis area, and so I contacted him. I had tried to talk him into doing a book with me on the subject of a Christian and a Muslim in dialogue with one another because. When you hear two sides speaking, it's just like the cross-examination period during a debate. That is the most useful time period in a debate. You get the most information out, the most clarification takes place.

Well, Dr. Cottie has always said, I'm not an expert on Christianity. You would have a tremendous advantage. Because you studied Islam and you know Christianity, I only know Islam, and so I would be at a disadvantage. He said, but there are things we can talk about between our two communities, and so If you'd be willing to have just a dialogue, but but not a debate, then I'd be willing to do that.

People say, well, you just shouldn't do that.

Well, let's remember a couple of things about what was going on. From the very beginning, the first words that I said were: this is not some type of ecumenical. Squishy, Sven Kumbaya. sweep all of our differences under the rug discussion. We're not doing That.

That's not the Islam that Dr. Qadi believes. That's not the Christianity that I believe. That's not what's going on here. Instead, we are very open about what we believe.

Yeah. Uh I'm not sure which segment you want to do this in. I linked to I sent a sound file. Uh where uh If anyone would just listen, and the thing that really bothers me is the initial attempt. Not and this was this was back in January.

This just came back up again uh because certain people stumbled across the Yeah, the YouTube videos and did programs Without even listening to the entirety of the dialogues. It was absolutely amazing to me that you would do this to someone. Um uh you know, and and claim to be a Christian in the process. But Whichever segment you'd like to do it, we were very, very, very clear. Ian.

Uh what we were saying to one another In regards to the differences in our faith. And I think you've had the opportunity of seeing what we're talking about there. All right, well, tell you what, let's play that right now. Johnny, grab the clip that was from the actual dialogue, and let's hear what was being set forth. Was this some kind of alliance?

I just saw some Facebook post attacking you, James, for making this kind of alliance. I mean, how could light make an alliance with darkness and all this? Was this some kind of alliance, or was this to be able to say, here's what I believe. Here's what I believe. Here's, let's understand the differences plainly, and then we'll do it one night in the church and one night in the mosque.

And what I think is really significant, because we both have a heart to reach Muslims, I often warn against radical Islam, which I know is not the best way to reach Muslims, but I have a burden to warn against radical Islam. But if I was primarily involved in Muslim outreach, I would tone down some of those warnings only because I'm not going to be able to reach the people that I reach who are going to constantly feel put off and offended by me. And I'll speak the truth in love.

So, Johnny, let's listen to this clip. This is from the dialogue. of a relationship with someone based upon respect, recognizing in them we use the term image of God. I realize that's not a Muslim concept, but it's a woman concept. We are created by God.

When you recognize in someone else a fellow image bearer, obviously it is far easier to model the love of Jesus Christ and to have the opportunity of modeling the gospel in front of someone when you have a relationship with them that is based upon respect and kindness and everything else. I think the greatest barrier for Christians in reaching out to the Muslim people is fear. We have fear in our hearts. It's based upon ignorance. It's based upon other things.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to do this. And so the final question before we go to questions, we've actually gone three minutes over. The last question we had in our little list is What we want for each other. And we sort of just talked about that just a little bit, but we'll conclude with this. From a Christian perspective, obviously, and this is why we can have these conversations, I would be very uncomfortable.

Just talking about our similarities, if we weren't honest about where we really believe. That's the kind of dialogue that I think a lot of people think we're doing, and it's not. Obviously, the greatest thing that I can hope for any person, if the greatest thing I can hope for my children, Is that they bow the knee in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ, and they receive a new heart, and they have eternal life. They have His righteousness, and they are going to have eternal life because of what Christ has done. If that's the greatest thing I can hope for my children, then it's the greatest thing I can hope for anyone else.

And so. I can have friendships With Muslim people, as long as we've had that conversation, they know where I stand, they know what I'm praying for. But I know what I'm going to be doing and have been doing for years And that is, I pray. for Yaserkadi. If I pray for Yasrakadi, I'm not changing God's heart.

God's changing Changing my heart. He is making me to be the type of person that is going to be concerned about your welfare. concerned about your health, concerned about your safety, concerned about your family. He's changing me. That's you know, we're not trying to convince God to be better.

God's already good. He's changing us. And so What would it mean? if the Muslim people in your neighborhood knew that you loved them, cared for them, prayed for them, and were willing to do anything for them. It would change everything.

But unfortunately, that's not generally how they view us. And So my desire, what I wanted, the final question was, what is our greatest desire for the other? And I know that that Obviously, I want your health and your your happiness and all these things, but The greatest thing a Christian wants for anyone is that they come to know Jesus Christ personally and bow the knee to him. And from a, I would imagine, from your perspective, you would love to see nothing more than for me to embrace Islam and say the Shahada and that would make me very happy.

So. All right, so clearly laid out: your desire is that he bows the knee to Jesus. His desire is that you become. a Muslim.

So James, where's the ambiguity here? Where's the interfaith alliance here? There simply wasn't any. And in fact, if you watch the uh the night in the mosque um Dr. Cottie starts off by saying the first question you asked me is, James, We don't understand the Trinity.

Could you please explain it to us? Later on, why did Jesus have to die? And it was not a debate. He does not come back, push back, anything like that. It was explain what you believe.

And look, the fact of the matter is, what I've discovered, especially over the past couple of weeks, is there's a lot of people that have a vested interest in making sure that our two communities do not talk to one another. that we remain in an abject state of fear toward one another. And I don't understand that because I am gospel focused. I believe the gospel is the only thing the only power that's been given to the church is the gospel. That's the only thing that can change hearts and minds.

And if we can open doors, Michael, I can't even begin to describe to you. how different it was. After each of these two dialogues, both the church and at the mosque, how different it was afterwards in comparison to debate. Both places had food set up, and we were talking with folks. And Every everywhere you looked.

It wasn't the Christians in one side of the room and the Muslims in the other side of the room. Everybody was talking together. It was Christians and Muslims talking together. It wasn't just the two sides, you know, lobbying verbal bombs at one another, anything like that. They're talking together.

I had three Muslim men.

Well, I'll tell you about the three Muslim men when I get a chance. All right, on the other side of the break. And then I was in Germany. I was with a pastor who has baptized a thousand ex-Muslims in the last 10 years. A phenomenal ministry to Muslims.

I asked him, did this thing, did he think it was a good idea? We'll play his clip. We come back. Got a Light and here are It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back, friends, to the line of fire. I'm on the air now with my dear friend, Dr. James White. He's come under criticism for an interfaith dialogue he did with a conservative Imam in January, one night in a church, one night in a mosque. And we'll give you more of the criticism he's come under.

Many others are so thankful for the opportunity. Just want to let you know in the second hour today, Dr. White will be having a debate with Robert Spencer about Islam. We're not going to get into this subject now. That's a separate subject for the debate.

Is true Islam violent Islam? In other words, can you be a true devout Muslim and be a peace-loving Muslim? Or is that a denial of the Islamic faith? That we're going to get into in the second hour.

So, James, you were mentioning after the dialogue one night, again, first night in the church, second night in a mosque, that There were some Muslim men that you wanted to tell me about. Yeah. Three of them came up to me as they were leaving and uh they just wanted to thank me very much for the for the dialogue, for the spirit in which it was uh undertaken, so on and so forth. And I I I looked at the older one who was staying in the middle and I and I said, Did did you feel welcome here this evening? And his eyes teared up and he simply said very quietly, I didn't think this was And in talking with many of the Muslims Uh you know, even Yashr Kadi said to me, We can have conversations with liberal Christians.

They'll talk with us. But we also recognize they don't really have firm beliefs. But those of you who claim to really believe the Bible and to have a firm commitment to the Trinity and things like that, you all want to talk to them. You you won't have anything to do with it. Um, and it's a it's a tremendous shame.

that that we have that reputation. The second night at the mosque, This young lady in full hijab comes up to me and she says, Thank you very much for being here. Could I ask you a question? And I'm sitting there munching on this very yummy chocolate chip cookie.

Sorry about that. I know that problem. Yeah, all right.

Somebody's got to do it. And. Uh I say, certainly. And she says, How do you deal with the influence? of pagan religion.

in the development of the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea. And I'm like Wow, what a question. And for 10 minutes, I stand there and I get to talk about Constantine's actual role at the Council of Nicaea and what the Council of Nicaea actually said, and go back to Ignatius and Ignatius' testimony of the deity of Christ all the way back in 108. And she hung on every single word. Michael, that doesn't happen after 99% of the debate.

It just doesn't happen after nine. See, the difference between a debate and a dialogue is the argument and the interaction takes place between the two speakers at the debate and not afterwards. At the dialogue, the locust moved. from us who were up front. Nobody was preaching, anything like that.

But Yashar Kai did not preach in a church or anything like that. It's been misrepresented that way. But the locus of interaction moves from the two up front. to the people in the audience. And that's where it needs to be.

There's only one of me. There's lots and lots of Christians. And so that's where the conversation needs to be taking place. And so here you had both Muslims and Christians being encouraged to talk with one another. And I believe the gospel is so powerful that let's have that conversation.

Let's let the power of the gospel be released. But there's a lot of people that really, really fear that. They really fear allowing Christians to have conversations with Muslims. Like really good. Yeah, so you hear, friends, you hear James Hart and outreach.

And look, I'm a debater. It's one thing that joins us together is debating and putting our lives on the line for the gospel. You've got to remember, James, when you spoke in the largest mosque in England or in South Africa, how big was your entourage? How many bodyguards did you have? Yeah.

None. None. You travel by yourself. Yeah. Right, exactly.

And you made they understood that you didn't agree with their religion. Ah, you know I remember standing in the East London Mosque and specifically stating. That the Quran is in error in what it says about the prophecies of Muhammad. And almost as soon as I said that, the Adnan goes off to call to prayer over the loudspeakers of the room we were in. And you you could just you could cut it with a knife, but Look, that's exactly what they expect.

I have to be able to. They never said you can't say anything like that. And no one who's ever attended any one of those debates would ever, and they're all online, by the way. What exactly? that I have In any way, shape, or form, compromise the gospel in my proclamation to Muslims.

And the main people that say that would be the Muslims. They recognize I've never done that. If you're going to be criticized, it's for being too rigid. It's for being too uncompromising. And we've we yeah, in other words.

Michael, come on, Michael. Whether it's being a Scott or a Calvinist or a mixture of both. Both, yeah. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

So, here's what one of your critics says: Despite what the theological pretenders of the evangelical elite declare, honest contenders of the faith, like me, the fellow writing this, are left with no choice but to lift up a shout of clear and unequivocal dissent, lest our silence be an implicit endorsement of the white travesty that was permeated with the spirit of Antichrist. I mean, again, I hate to keep using the word sick, but that's sick stuff. It's one thing to say, you know. We don't think it's wise to, we just have a problem with an imam talking in a church. All right, I understand some people say, you know, it's just the pulpit and that's sacred and you don't even want to bring a dialogue in there.

And well, people that are ignorant or they may get influenced or isn't Yasser Khat isn't like, isn't he a radical? Isn't he jealous? That's all fair to discuss that. But to couch it like this, the spirit of Antichrist, I imagine the person writing this means well, but from the best of your knowledge, what has gotten some people so exercised that they're thinking so utterly irrationally. there is a vested interest on the part of many, many people to make sure that our two communities stay in an absolute state of warfare.

And it they're on both sides. You need to understand. ISIS kills Sunni Muslims. who are too friendly to Jews and Christians.

Okay, so on their side, the far, far, far right of their side. They believe that the only true Islam is an Islam that shows absolute detestation of Jews and Christians. And they have their arguments for that. Sadly, on our side, and we have no basis for this in Scripture. I mean, it is amazing the text that's been come up with that, well, you know, you shouldn't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, has actually been used as an argument as to why you shouldn't have a dialogue with a Muslim.

But On our side, we have people who honestly, I've seen it. I've seen the disgusting comments over the past two weeks. A Muslim is a Muslim, every Muslim is a liar, every Muslim is demonized, and you have the exact same attitude. And obviously, those two extremes are never going to talk to one another. They're never going to accomplish anything.

Yeah, let me let me just ask this though. Do you believe that every Muslim as a non-believer is a child of darkness, not a child of light? I very clearly made it known that Well Remember what happened with Bernie Sanders? I would have been in the exact same boat. We all stand condemned before God outside of Jesus Christ.

Exactly. Right. And we said in the dialogue. And Yasha Connie and I said in the dialogue: hey, I believe. You believe you're going to hell, you believe I'm going to hell.

Now, what do we do about it? Exactly. All right, tell you what, we've got a lot more to unpack, friends. And I want to play this amazing quote from a pastor in Germany. I want to get to some calls, but let the whole world hear this right now.

Let the whole world hear this. One critic has said, unfortunately, the time has come to identify the men, churches, and organizations who defend James White in what 2 John 7 through 11 describes as an evil deed manifesting the Antichrist spirit.

Okay, I am one of those men. Mark me. Go ahead and mark me. I am one of those who defends James White. For sharing the gospel with a Muslim Imam in a church and in a mosque.

Go ahead and mark me. You know what? I believe God's marked James with a smile for this. Oh, and go ahead and call me Christian Mafia also. I'll pray that the Lord will bring you to repentance and bless you.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, friends, to the line of fire, talking with Dr. James White about an interfaith dialogue he did back in January with a conservative imam one night in a church in Memphis the next night in a mosque.

So James, when I was in Germany this past weekend, after two days in Israel, it was two days in Germany. I met a pastor. I'd actually preached from many years ago in Germany. He's from Ghana. He's been in Germany 26 years.

And he began leading Muslims to the Lord years back.

Now, he'd have a different approach. He's not a debater. He prays for the sick and has seen many healings. But he's baptized 1,000 ex-Muslims. At his church on any given Sunday, you'll have at least 200 ex-Muslims there, mainly from Iran.

So I asked him about interfaith dialogue. I said, it's not a debate, it's not preaching, interfaith dialogue. Would you do it? I told him, friend had an opportunity one night in the church, one night in the mosque. He said, that's the wisdom of God.

That's the grace of God. That's an open door. Do it. And then he said, I would.

So I said, well, let's do an interview because I wanted to get his whole story. I said to him, I asked him to get on the air. And he said, he said, oh, I'd go into that mosque. I'd preach. I'd line up all the sick.

I'd pray for them in Jesus' name. He said, I wish I had that opportunity. I said, no, no, okay. I said, but what about... bringing the Imam into the church And having a dialogue in front of Christians, would you do that?

And I asked him in a totally neutral way: all right, let's hear how he responded. Pastor Richard, I do from Dusseldorf, Germany. Oh, this is a golden opportunity. If an Imam will invite me to the mosque and to speak to his followers, that will be a dream come true. And the topic will be: I should explain to them who Jesus is.

What an opportunity to preach the gospel. And right there in that mosque, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what, people who have got headaches. Let me just jump in. Hey, Johnny, let me just jump in on it.

Okay, so that was the first clip. I actually, I queued up the, sent the wrong one to queue up. But James, when I asked him about the mosque and when I asked him about the Imam coming into the church, he said, oh, yes, he said, let him explain what he believes. Let him explain about Muhammad. Let him explain about the Quran.

Let him explain all of that. Absolutely. He said, because our people, they know Jesus. They won't be affected. He said, well, just love on him.

We'll just love on him and tell them about Jesus. And he has baptized a thousand ex-Muslims. I would take his word seriously.

Well That's the whole point. L let's let's just be honest. The vast majority of people are complaining about this. have never invested themselves in sitting down and getting to know a Muslim. and expressing their own heart.

See, one of the things I've started to try to do with before all of my debates is I try to have lunch or dinner with the person I'm going to be debating. And make sure they understand why I do what I do. Michael, it has had. such a massive impact. On the quality of those debates.

It has not only turned down the unnecessary volume and temperature. But it has greatly Deepen the content of those debates. If you can honestly look at someone and say, I care about you in the name of Jesus Christ, I do this because I truly am concerned about you, and I really believe this is the only way of having eternal life. And yet, I have taken the time to understand what you believe and to accurately understand. That's what's bothering me so much, Michael, is so many of my Christian brothers and sisters saying, I don't need to know that.

I don't need to hear what this man has to say. He's a false teacher.

Well, okay, I understand that, but if I'm going to communicate with someone, I need to know the categories to do so the most effectively. It's like saying, just go up to Utah and stand on a street corner and start yelling at Mormons. And see how effective you're gonna be. You know anything about Mormonism, and if any of them start talking to you, you won't have any idea what they're talking about, but just go do it. That's what basically we're being told.

And I go, No, that's not how Paul did it. That's not how the w the the Spirit of God would lead us to do that. I I just don't understand it. I really don't. Yeah, and by the way, when I've done debates, gay activists or different ones, those that are opposing, I say, right, here's my one condition: that we have a meal afterwards.

I mean, my thing just want to sit and keep relating and reaching out. And by the way, I have debated, so everyone's presenting their views forcefully. I've debated a rabbi in a church. I've debated a rabbi in a synagogue or rabbis. And one time I had a rabbi come and lecture our students as to why.

Christians should not try to reach Jews with the gospel. Have them lecture my students. And then Q ⁇ A after, it only fueled their fire to do more outreach. We'll be right back with your calls. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame.

Sanda fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Remember, the second hour. Dr. James White and Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch will be having a friendly debate on Islam. Is true Islam always violent?

Can you be a Genuine, devout, peace-loving Muslim, or is that a contradiction in terms?

So we'll be discussing that in the second hour. James, some callers have some questions for you, but let's just get to one important issue first. The whole idea of being, quote, a useful idiot being used by Islam and that you just don't get it, you don't really understand Islam, you're believing the lies of these Muslim leaders like Yasir Qadi, and that you don't understand taqiyya, where they're just lying and denying things. Obviously, we understand that people can be useful idiots, be it of communism, be it of Islam, and just no, no, Islam is a religion of peace, and Islam is always peaceful, and no, these jihadists, they're not really Muslims. You say they are really Muslims, but so are the peace-loving ones.

And that, again, will be discussed in the second hour. But what about Yaserqadi? I mean, I'm reading all these links about him, and he's tied in with this group, and this group, and this group, and this group, and he stands for Sharia law. Is that the old Yaserqadi? The new Yastrakati, or is there really a new Yastrakati at all?

No, no, no. No, the man's a conservative. That's why I've learned so much from him, and that's why I found in him someone that I wanted to have a dialogue with, because Uh he's not uh some type of moderate or liberal that doesn't actually believe what Muslims teach. He actually believes Islam, he believes that it's true. And that's the majority of the Muslims you're going to be talking to.

I mean, you know, here in the West we'll run into some liberals once in a while. That's true. Majority who come from another nation, they're going to be very conservative believing Muslims. And so that's the type of person I want to have a dialogue with, because that's the type of person I want to reach. And so it's amazing to me that people are going, well, wait a minute, this guy is actually a consistent Muslim.

He loves Sharia. And it's like, excuse me, first of all, What do you know about Sharia? There's this Here's another example where there's this kind of absolute explosion of the mind as soon as you say sharia. Um I'm not an expert in Sharia. I don't know any non Muslim that is, and I don't know very many Muslims who are.

It's a huge subject. Hundreds and hundreds of volumes, the vast majority of which are only written in Arabic. And I know very, very, very few people that have access to almost any of those things. But one thing I can tell you Is that there's a lot of different views of Sharia. And you know why?

Because Sharia simply means God's law. And how many views of God's law are there amongst Christians? Hmm.

Well, a lot. J just a few. We could get a debate started on that real easy. And see, Again, it's all about consistency, Michael. You know, people say, Well, the Muslims want to establish Sharia all around the world.

And I go, Are have you read Philippians chapter 2 recently? And they go, Yeah. And I go, What does it say? Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess Jesus Christ the Lord, the glory of God the Father, right?

So, what if someone comes along and says, All the Christians want to force everyone to become a Christian? You're going to want to be able to go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I need to make distinctions here, we need to put this in context. We need to understand exactly how it's going to happen. We need to understand the difference between bowing the knee in repentance and faith resulting in salvation versus at the end time when God by his power brings it all to an end and every knee bows, but some to their judgment.

We need to put it all in context. We need to make distinctions. If we're going to demand the absolute right to say this is what we believe by these words. We cannot turn around and say, but we will not allow anybody else to do that. We are going to tell the Muslims, you have to believe what I believe you're supposed to believe about what Sharia is and how it's to be applied.

And all the rest of that stuff, even though it is as plain as the nose on anybody's face. that there have been tremendous arguments amongst Muslims about those very issues for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. How can we be consistent? And saying, we demand the right of self-definition, but we will not give you the right. of self-definition.

I can't look at myself in the mirror in the morning. And engage in that kind of activity. I have to be consistent. Right, so even if we believe that the Quran is the most influential falsely attributed to God book ever written, or Muhammad is the most influential false prophet. Of all time doesn't mean that we don't nuance discussion about specifics.

That we could believe someone is a child of darkness and they could believe we're hellbound, but we still want to understand each other when we're having a debate, dialogue. And one rabbi once made the comment that it's not fair to take the worst elements of someone else's religion and compare them to the best elements of yours. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And see, from my perspective, Michael, I believe that I have presented some very strong arguments against the authenticity of the Quran as a divine revelation.

But they are fairly deep arguments, and they require the Muslim to know the Quran and to follow the argumentation. And I believe that that's As you just said. I learned a long time ago in dealing with Mormonism. you respond to the the best argument that they give. and be prepared for the best people that they have.

And if you're prepared for that, then when you run into a Mormon that's not all that well prepared. Then you're going to be prepared for them as well. If you're always going with the least common denominator, low-end, low-ball argumentation, and then the well-prepared person comes along, you're going to be in deep trouble. In the same way, I think our approach should be, well, you've seen my book, What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran. One of the primary arguments about my book was this shouldn't be what every Christian needs to know about the Quran.

This should be what every apologist needs to know about the Quran, because I went into so much depth. But that's Look. Do you respect someone who comes on your program? And says, I hear you, Michael Brown. You're a Christian, right?

Well, yes, I'm a Christian. You believe that Bible, right? Yes, I believe that.

Well that that That makes you a cultist.

Well, why does it make make me a cultist?

Well, because I saw a movie once by an ex-Christian that said that everything in the Bible is a bunch of mythology.

So you've never actually read the Bible for yourself. No, I haven't, but I watched that movie. How much credibility does that person have? Absolutely positively none. Zero.

And I listened to your debates with the rabbis, and you know why you drive them nuts. Because you've done your homework. That's why. Because you've taken the time to read the rabbinic sources. I've stood in your office and you've pulled the Mishnah down off of the shelf and opened it to these pages, and you know where everything is.

And why did you do that? To show off? No, because you knew you needed to do that. If you want to reach those people and you want to reach those people in the proper way, you've got to do your homework. And unfortunately, let's be honest, a lot of this is coming from people that haven't.

done their homework. Yeah. And they think that doing it somehow is a compromise. Yeah, and it's one thing to call out ISIS for what it is and to pray against them and to rejoice when one of their terrorist attacks is cut down and innocent people aren't killed. It's one thing to do that.

It's another thing to reach your next-door neighbor who's a Muslim and one of the nicest people that you've met. And it is equally mortified by what ISIS did. And the reason we both learn Arabic is to do our best to read the things in their original language and feel it and try to see it through the eyes of a Muslim. Why are they so devoted? Why is this so powerful to them?

And then seek to bring the gospel. Since you mentioned your book, let's go to James in Lafayette, Indiana with a question about your book. Go ahead, sir. You're on with Dr. White.

Yes, thank you. Uh just wanted to say Thank you, both you men, for your ministry and what you do, and it's really inspiring to live it out. For the Lord. And anyway, about the book, just curious, Dr. White, if there's a good way to apply what every Christian should know about the Quran in a small group Bible study setting in order to What you're doing with the dialogues with Dr.

Cottie and others, and honestly, I hope you do more of those.

So please do. Yeah, is there any way? Let's be honest, I'm not sure Dr. Cotti would want to do any more after this because he's getting attacked right, left and center for having done it, not from Muslims. but from Christians.

It it's it's a shame. But yes, we do hope to do more, maybe not necessarily with doctor Cotty, but with some others who are willing to do that type of thing. But as far as in a small group thing, I know that there have been churches that have done small group studies and they focused upon each chapter, tried to understand exactly what the application would be. Obviously, from my perspective, it's the issue of looking for consistency. And so being able to go into Sura five, for example, one of my key arguments, Sura five forty three through forty eight, And to demonstrate the intimate relationship that exists between the New Testament and the Old Testament.

The New Testament writers know the Old Testament text, they quote from the Old Testament text. You come to the Qur'an, which is allegedly the next step in the series of Revelation, and there's no knowledge. The author of the Qur'an does not have first-hand knowledge of either the Old or New Testament texts. It breaks the chain that the Quran itself Claims is the primary authority for the author of the Quran. And you you know if I keep saying author of the Quran, I do that so as to not get into uh the the personal uh affections and connections that people have to the name Muhammad.

you're sort of allowing them to sort of step aside And look at the Quran somewhat objectively if you just simply talk about the author of the Quran. And what you're doing is you want to ask the question: if this is the final revelation, Then shouldn't we expect certain things to be able to be said of it?

So, won't the author know what Christians believe and accurately represent what Christians believe? Won't there be this intimate relationship between the revelations that has come before? None of those things are the same. Yeah, again, these are arguments, friends. If you don't have...

good clear arguments about these issues and you're not familiar with the Quran, get Dr. White's book, What Every Christian Should Know About the Quran. It was written in a painstaking way, detailed, documented, but clear and usable. It's fire we want for fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I was speaking with my friend and colleague, Dr. James White, about interfaith dialogue he had with a conservative Muslim Imam early this year in a church and then in a mosque in Memphis. And James, what about... the concern that some raise that Things were were spoken by the Imam. Erroneous.

Spoken by the Imam reflecting Muslim belief, and that you didn't, quote, refute him. and that therefore people would hear these things and be confused by them, or that he was allowed to speak lies in a church setting. What's your response to that? A couple things. of all when people say well listen Search.

Uh well, I believe the church is made up of people. This was not a worship service. He was not preaching. There was no pulpit. We were sitting in comfy chairs.

It looked like a Monty Python thing, to be prepared. And uh So we were there in a dialogue. Everyone that came there, you had to get tickets to be there. You knew exactly what you were coming there for. You're going to listen to a dialogue between two different people with very different perspectives.

So it's not like Some naive person walks in and goes, Is this Christianity or is this Islam? I don't know. Uh as to uh Saying, well, you need to refute everything that he has to say. That's called a debate. That's the very thing that he said he was not willing to do because he does not claim to be an expert on Christianity.

And so The the exact same thing would be true in reverse. When I was in the mosque, should he have refuted everything I said about the Trinity, the necessity of the cross, so on and so forth? What people were there to do is to hear a representative from the other perspective express their faith. And so many people have been saying, well, but Yasser Qadi, his views aren't identical to this person over there or that person. His views aren't like ISIS, which is probably why they want to kill him.

All that does is prove. that if you had if you had an interface dialogue with um Well, with a Roman Catholic, you're going to expect different answers than you're going to get from an assemblies of God pastor. That's that's obvious. And what this proves is there isn't one Islam.

So when people are saying, well, Yaser Qadi misrepresented Islam here, what they're saying is I get to define what Islam is, and since his view of Islam is different than mine, then he's engaging in takiyah. And he's lying about everything. I don't know how you can have any kind of meaningful conversation with anybody. when you start with the assumption. That everything they'd say about their own faith.

is going to be a lot. I mean, that's it. You might as well. Why even bother? You're not going to get anywhere in this situation.

It's just. It's done uh just There's nothing that's going to be communicated in that context at all. And, you know, I would teach periodically at different seminaries an intro class on answering Jewish objections to Jesus, so Jewish Apologetics 101. And then, if it worked out, one night during the class, an ultra-Orthodox rabbi that I would normally talk to weekly would call in. and I would put him on speakerphone.

And ask him a series of questions about his relationship to the law, how he's used Torah, why he doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah, just to be sure. That that I represented his views accurately to the students, that the way I represented Judaism was accurate. Then they would ask him questions, and then that would be it. I wouldn't rebut him or refute him because the purpose was, here's now what you can hear, a rabbi saying, and the whole class was designed to presenting our viewpoint. But again, what's the use of having a dialogue if you don't accurately understand what the other person believes?

What's the use of me getting aggressive in terms of opposing something that someone doesn't even hold to? And then what's the use of saying, okay, what do you believe? And then they tell me and say, you're lying. But Michael, you and I not only have confidence. in what we believe and our ability to provide a response.

But we have confidence that we have been teaching the people properly and they have a level of discernment. If you set yourself up as the expert of all these things and want everybody to depend upon you. then you're going to fear that kind of of exchange. And if you don't have confidence that your arguments are really strong, then you're going to fear bringing someone in like that. That's the problem, that's the difference.

Um I believe that we've Very, very clearly laid out a very strong case of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ. You and I have debated together against many of the objections that Muslims make to the Deity of Christ were the very ones that are made that you and I answered, I think, rather fully just a number of years ago in the debate on the Jewish Voice broadcast. We have confidence in the truth of Christianity, so we can allow it to get out there into the arena of ideas. Other people don't have that confidence. Yeah, I agree that that's the case.

And by the way, that quote, we just I pulled the wrong one from that pastor in Germany. His thing was, yes, our people are grounded. They love Jesus. Let the Imam say about Muhammad, Quran, whatever he did. Our people love Jesus.

They're not going to be moved. They understand the truth. Let's try to grab one more call really quickly. Chris in Ontario, Canada. Thanks for holding.

What's your question for Dr. White? Hello, doctor White and doctor Michael Brown. Very pleased to be on here to be able to speak with you two gentlemen. My question for Dr.

White would be Um, on the internet there was a a broadcasting that had your words and it was That there was no apologist that has been. able to clearly and represent the gospel better than you have in a mosque environment. uh to Muslims.

Now what type of context would that be In sir. That was in the dividing line just last week. And what I was talking about was the criticism that people are making that, oh, James White didn't present the gospel and James White was compromising the gospel. And what I was pointing out that in regards to people that are active in debating Muslims today. I don't know of anyone who goes to more pain than I do.

to try to make sure, not in an artificial way, not in a way that violates the rules of debate. But I can provide clip after clip after clip. Of my tying the topic into a presentation of the gospel in whatever context I'm in.

So when people come along and say, Oh, this is terrible, you're compromising the gospel, you're a dupe of Islam because you didn't preach the gospel in this context. They're ignoring the fact that in the second half of the year, of this dialogue, I was specifically Why did Jesus have to die? I sat there for ten minutes. In a mosque? explaining the necessity of the atonement.

I mean, it is just amazing why anyone Would make the argument that the presentation of the gospel is something that I am seeking to not do. Like I'm trying to please my Muslim masters. I've heard that one too.

So my what I was responding to was this assertion that, well, you know, you didn't present the gospel, and so what happened was a terrible, horrible thing. And my response was, I don't think show me anybody. And there's only a small number of us that are doing this, so it's pretty easy to do. Show me anybody. Who has put more effort into making sure that the gospel is clearly proclaimed in their debates than I do?

And I don't think there is anybody. The vast majority of folks are much more focused upon historical things and law things and history and things like that. Very focused, even when debating issues that are primarily historical, in tying it into the gospel. And that's all I was saying. It was a very short clip.

They took it out of the context of what I was saying, and I stand by what I said. Hey, thank you for the response, James. And Chris, thank you for the question. All right, listen, friends, we are out of time in this first hour. When we resume, we'll be joined by Robert Spencer.

And Dr. White and Robert Spencer are going to have a radio debate. We have to do it within the context of the timeframes that we have, but both gentlemen understand that. And we'll do our best to give them equal time and then time to question each other. Let me remind you: if you are not getting my emails where we're sending out new articles, new videos every single week, sometimes six, seven, eight new resources a week, make sure you sign up at askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org.

Sign up for the emails. I want to send you a free e-book, Seven Secrets of the Real Messiah, a Real Eye-Opener. Yours for free on our website. Islam Is it always violent? If you're true to the Quran and the original sources, will you support jihad?

We're about to debate that issue. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire. Over the months and years, we've often talked about Islam. I've often warned about radical Islam and interacted with teachings of the Quran. I've also sought to interact with Muslims and discuss the gospel as well. But the question that always comes up is the nature of Islam.

Is Islam by its very nature true to its original sources and the example of the life of Muhammad? Always going to have a violent expression, always going to believe in some form of jihad. Or maybe not as bad as ISIS, but it will be a violent religion. Or is it possible to be true to the Quran and Muhammad, the original sources and theology and history, and somehow be a peace-loving Muslim? And say, yeah, times of war, that's one thing, but otherwise we're peace-loving and we deplore what these other groups do.

Are there different forms of Islam? That's what we want to discuss today, and I've got two experts on with me. Robert Spencer, the director of Jihad Watch, which is a program of the David Harwood's Freedom Center, authors 17 books, including New York Times bestseller, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades. I often go to his website, jihadwatch.org. Mr.

Spencer, thanks so much for joining us on the broadcast today. Happy to be here. Thank you. All right, and joining him is Dr. James White.

We've been on the first hour talking about an interfaith dialogue he had with a Muslim Imam earlier in the year, but now we're focusing on this topic. James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, the author of many books, and most particularly, What Every Christian Should Know About the Quran. James, Dr. White, welcome back to the show. Good to be with you.

All right, so Robert, if you could take a minute. And give your basic thesis. Then I want James to do it, and then you'll unpack it both longer in the next segment.

So, Robert, starting with you for a minute. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. It's certainly true that not every Muslim Is waging jihad or ever will wage jihad or needs to wage jihad in Islamic theology. The Quran envisions jihad as something that is violent.

Muhammad, who is exemplary for Muslims in terms of The highest example to be imitated, fought in battles and exhorted Muslims to do so. The Quran says that those believers who sit at home are not equal to those who strive in the way of Allah, that is, wait jihad in the way of Allah, with their possessions and their lives. Which makes it very clear we're talking about battle and not about some sort of spiritual struggle. And Islamic law in all of the various schools of jurisprudence both Sunni and Shia. all of the mainstream sects of Islam.

All of them are unanimous in teaching that it is the responsibility of Responsibility. of the Islamic community. to wage war against unbelievers and subjugate them under the rule of Islamic law. And so violence is inherent. in Islam in all of its traditional and classic forms.

All right, one minute exactly. James, over to you.

Well, obviously, the the real issue here. Here is, do we demand that we apply A Protestant sola scriptura. The earliest sources are the only type thing. lens upon Islam? Or do we recognize that Islam developed its own jurisprudence over time?

That provided for a limitation on the nature of jihad, when jihad could take place, what jihad is. Uh the the roll the caliphate, so on and so forth. And so while there's no question that there is a tremendous amount of basis For the Argumentation of violence. In the promulgation of this. There is also very clearly No consistency.

And this is the issue. I'm going to be arguing. I have to argue. That the original sources themselves are not consistent with themselves as divine revelations. This is one of my primary arguments.

against the idea that the Quran's the word of God to begin with. All right, friends, we come back. We're going to hear from Robert Spencer five minutes supporting his position, and Dr. White five minutes supporting his position, and then we'll continue to go, and then ultimately with interaction between the two gentlemen as we discuss the real nature of Islam. Oh God of burning cleansing Flame, send the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We are discussing today the true nature of Islam. If you are consistent with the sources, will you be ultimately a violent Muslim or a Muslim who supports violent jihad? Or are the sources not consistent? Two experts debating this, Robert White, Robert White, Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch and James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Robert, over to you for five minutes to present your side.

Yes. In the first place, Dr. White started out by saying that what we must not do is supply some sort of Protestant sola script. Yeah. to Islam.

And that is absolutely true. That's exactly what I am not doing. what we have to do is take Islam on its own terms. He mentioned it schools of jurisprudence, and that is exactly what we need to look at because every Sunni Muslim and every Shiite Muslim. with very few exceptions.

Adheres to One of the schools of jurisprudence in the Sunni world, the Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi, and Hanbali schools, these are not brick-and-mortar schools, these are schools of thought. ways of understanding Islam. And all of them. Shiites also. The Jafari school is a Shiite school, and other Shiite schools.

They all give a Muslim an understanding. It's not just a solar. Scripture or religion that a Muslim reads the Quran and comes to an idea of what it means. It is a a religion of authority, and the authorities come from these schools of jurisprudence. Every one of these schools of jurisprudence in is unanimous.

in staying That it is a responsibility of the Muslim community to make war against Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims in order to bring Bring them into the Islamic social order. which means that they pay the jizya the tax on non-Muslims. and accept various humiliating and discriminatory regulations, or else they go to war with the Muslims. the the Muslims go to war with them, that is.

So this is something that is taught by all four schools of jurisprudence among the SUNYs. as well as by the Shiites. It is something that is Taught by Muhammad and something that is exemplified by Muhammad.

So the thing is, is that Dr. White is also correct when he says there is no consistency in the original sources. But this is something that these schools have jurisprudence all deal with. Because in the early part of Muhammad's career, He did not teach warfare against unbelievers. but when he moved at the hijra.

from Mecca to Medina. He began to preach in the first place defensive jihad and then offensive jihad. The Yeah. Of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq in the 8th century. He actually explained that there is a progression In the Quran, in its understanding of jihad, first talks.

then defensive And finally, offensive jihad, which is The stage that is valid for all time. Although, when Muslims are a small group that is threatened by a large majority of unbelievers, then they also will preach tolerance. in the manner of the first stage. but it is always tending toward the second and third state.

So Dr. White is broadly correct that there's no consistency. In the sources, but this is an inconsistent. That has been dealt with. By Islamic jurisprudence.

All the way back to the beginning. Beginning, all the way back to Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Qayim, Ibn Kathir, the pioneering sociologist Ibn Khaldun and many other Islamic authorities. all the way throughout Islamic history. down to the twentieth century. Have taught that the offensive jihad as a versus involving fighting.

Like for example. For example, chapter 8, verse 39 of the Quran. Fight until religion is all for Allah. In chapter 9, verse 29. which says fight them.

Mm-hmm. fight against those Who do not obey Allah and His Messenger and do not forbid what He has forbidden. even if they are of the people of the book which is Primarily Jews and Christians. until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Mm.

that these kinds of verses Take precedence. Over verses such as chapter 109 of the Quran, which says, Say to the unbelievers, I don't worship what you worship, and you don't worship what I worship, and we're not going to worship what he. each other worships and so essentially we'll just leave each other alone. That the verses of fighting, of warfare, They take precedence. Yeah.

versus of peace. And so for example, you have a Emanual of Islamic law saying that because the prophet Muhammad, who is of course exemplary. Muslim behavior. instructed his commanders directing them to call the infidels to the faith, First, so the Muslims call the infidels to the faith so that the people will hence pursue the That they are Being attacked for the sake of religion. And not just for the sake of taking their property.

In other words, it's saying that this is something that Muslims Have a risk. Responsibility. to fight. Sayyid Abu Ala Maldoudi, the twentieth century jihad theorist, In Pakistan. said the same thing in his multi-volume exegesis of the On that Muslims have a response.

Responsibility to wage war. to impose Sharia over the world.

So they understood. that there are other things in the sources. teaching peace. But they always taught, in accord with the principle of abrogation, based also on the Quran. what comes chronologically later supersedes what comes chronologically earlier, that the warfare superseded the tolerant.

All right, thank you.

Now, Dr. White? Back to you.

Well, we've already had pretty much everything we need laid out right there. And now we've gotten to the real issue right there at the end, and that is If we are having to deal with Yeah, yeah, yeah. Engaging in prioritizing their materials, saying, well, Yeah. precedence over that. requires us to utilize the law of abrogation, for example.

I have in my experience Never found. the law of abrogation to in the exact same way By almost anybody. It's amazing how easy it is to utilize law of abrogation to basically come up with your own particular uh perspectives. And whenever a sect arises in Islam, and there have been many of them. They utilize the law of abrogation to reorganize things.

The same thing is true with the study of the Hadith. When you Start looking at this massive amount of information. and you actually start reading the Hadith, you discover very, very quickly That but By prioritizing how you're going to view them by putting one quotation over another quotation. It's very easy to change the tenor and the tone of what you're going to be presenting from the hadith. And since the hadith, become the lens through which the Quran itself is to be interpreted and has to be the lens through which the Quran itself is interpreted for the simple reason that the Quran being so short And being so Uh non Uh Mubinun, it is not clear.

in its presentation. You cannot exegete it. the way you can the New Testament. you have to have a lens through which you're going to be reading it. And the many, many, many different readings of the Quran that have come about as a result.

the interpretations of different passages. is due to the fact that you can create the lens that you want to create from From the hadith. And so, my problem with the entire thesis statement is this idea that there is a quote-unquote truth. True Islam. Who's getting to define that?

How do we How do we define that? And that's why I said at the beginning. In listening, for example, to Dr. Cotty, One of the things he said that was fascinating to me is he said, well, The the Salafi, the Wahhabi. Um, they basically are like the Reformers.

And what they've done is they've gotten rid of All of The later developments of tradition saying this wasn't coming from those original sources, this wasn't coming from the The people that were around the prophet. And so they've gotten rid of all the things that. provided a buffer against this type of activity. And that's why they fight with each other, that's why they can't agree on theology, that's why they're in the mess that they're in, which is very similar to the arguments that Roman Catholics use against the Protestants in saying there's all these different groups and all these different perspectives. things like that and so When we say what is true Islam, we have to ask ourselves the question, Do you mean What is The view of Muhammad.

Well, I don't know that anyone. can know that. Yeah. Spencer has a book. Did Muhammad exist?

So if you question whether Muhammad existed, I don't know how you can know what he would have thought if he didn't actually exist.

So how can we How can we even know? That we're reading stories that have developed over a tremendous period of time and in different directions. There does seem to be a core of some type of historical element to it. But so much of it develops over time And again, by looking at it, you can go, well. This this you know, ISIS, the Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram.

They're going to look at this. strain of tradition. in the hadith. And they're going to use that. to create their theology and that's going to be a very violent Theology, no question about it.

But then others look at this strain of the And they're not going to look at the same way as Boko Haram. uh the the people, for example, who as Muslims uh desire The education of women, for example, are going to prioritize certain hadith over other hadith. the inconsistency of these sources is to me one of the strongest arguments against the divine nature. of Islam. Because Yeah.

The Quran was written on heavenly tablets and sent down during Ramadan. And you can say it's been absolutely perfectly preserved for us, but the fact of the matter is it cannot define itself. It is not sufficient in an Of itself to define itself, and when you add the hadith in, it doesn't help the situation. It hurts the situation. And so I don't believe that there is a quote unquote truth.

Yeah. to begin with. I don't think the historical documents can give us a solid enough basis for that. And Since my My Biggest emphasis is seeking to reach people where they are, then I want to reach them with what their beliefs are and not try to enforce something upon them. All right, friends, we come back.

I actually have a question for Robert Spencer and a question. for James White and then they're going to be able to question and cross-examine each other. Stay tuned. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Actually, I got slightly ahead of myself. I will answer, raise some questions in the next segment. But first, back to Robert Spencer for a four-minute response, rebuttal to Dr. White. Yes, in the first place, I think that Dr.

White and I both agree that there is Ridiculous to say there's any true Islam. Because there isn't any single authority that can define what that would be.

However, we can and should look at the mainstream authorities within Islam, as I explained in the earlier segment. And those are all unanimous in saying that jihad involves violence against unbelievers and that violence against unbelievers is a blessed act that will bring reward to the believer. Uh Dr. White is uh correct. that the contain all kinds of different things.

Mm-hmm. But it's really kind of ridiculous for him to say that because I question the historicity Of Muhammad, therefore, we can't know anything about what Muhammad actually said and did. It's just like if I say, Macbeth said Is this a dagger I see before me?

Well, Macbeth really said that. in the play. But that doesn't mean Macbeth was a historical character. And it's the same thing with Muhammad. Muhammad says and does all sorts of things in the hadith.

Yeah. should know about, but that doesn't mean they have any historicity.

Now the historicity of Muhammad is a separate question. But the content of Muhammad's teaching is very important because it formulates Islamic law. And Muhammad is very clear in the hadith. It's not true, while it's true that there are all sorts of contradictory hadith about all kinds of matters. Dr.

White will not be able to invoke a single hadith in which Muhammad is saying, live at peace and coexist with the unbelievers on an indefinite basis and don't go to war with them. There is no such hadith, but there are many such hadiths that say, for example, Muhammad says, I've been commanded to fight against people until they confess that there is no God but Allah and that I am His Messenger. where he tells the his his followers to In the first place, involve The unbelievers to accept Islam and then invite them to pay the jizya. If they refuse both, Then to fight. them where Muhammad says, I have been made victorious with terror.

where it's very clear that he doesn't mean something not some sort of religious awe, but terror in the sense of being terrorized. Muhammad himself. practice this. in a notorious incident that There were some people who Stole some of the camels and made off with them. And uh the Mahal.

Yeah. Ordered people to go and follow them and find them, and then he ordered them to be have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, which is in accord with the Quran in chapter five, verse thirty three, and had them staked out in the desert and their cries for water to be ignored and so on. This is somebody who mandated violence, who practiced violence, Engage in violence. And this is why all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in teaching. that violence is integral to the application of Islam for the believer.

this now violence is fart kefayah, a communal obligation. On the Muslim community in general.

So, if one part of the Muslim community is discharging it, another does not have to.

So not every Muslim has to engage in violence in order to be a true Muslim. But There is no Sect of Islam. that teaches Pete. There is no School of Jurisprudence of Estate. long.

teaches that Muslims should Every last sex and every last school. Working from this mass of hadith that Dr. White rightly notes his controversial contradictory. Yeah. in it.

It's odd that there's not even a single one that sees any peace in it. They all see a mandate to wait. war against and to subjugate unbelievers. As inferiors denied basic rights, under the rule of Islamic law. And we have to remember that that is the goal of of jihad.

Not just undifferentiated mayhem, it is designed to be. The infidels and ultimately to bring them under. Under the sway and under the government of Islam. As Madudi says, non-believers have absolutely no right to wield the reins of power in any part of God's earth. And if they do, the believers have the response.

Responsibility to take up arms and dislodge them from that power. All right, thank you.

James White, back to you for four minutes. I'm a little confused uh about What was just uh in regards to Macbeth and and Mohammed I'm still it sounds like if if the thesis of the debate was true Islam is always violent. If we're saying there is no such thing as true Islam, that Islam has always been uh Had all these different kinds of characteristics to it. that there's differences between people. Maybe what should have been said is You can interpret Uh the various schools of jurisprudence in such a way that they all demand jihad as Yeah.

then also include the limitations upon Yeah. requirements when you live in a non-Muslim land. we haven't defined yet. And unfortunately, as time gets shorter and shorter each segment, Dar al-Harb, Dar al-Islam, what the difference is between the world that is submitted to Allah, the world that is the Re reign of war. Uh so on and so forth.

Uh that's uh that's unfortunate. was completely lost as To The relationship of Macbeth and Muhammad. If Muhammad didn't exist, then what you have is some kind of development over time of what becomes the foundation of the various schools of jurisprudence. Where did that come from? And if there wasn't a Muhammad, then how could there be such consistency amongst these schools of jurisprudence.

is something that I think But once again, the question becomes If we're using log of abrogation to come up with all of this type of interpretation to begin with. What do you do with the people that you Live with today who look at the stories of Muhammad and they emphasize the pre-Hijra stories.

So they emphasize the stories. when he was a minority prophet. When he himself was speaking religious freedom. Upon what basis are those abrogated? Yeah.

do believe those things. Yeah. relevant to their faith today.

So you say to them, I'm not, you're not a true Muslim. Or do you just simply say, well, historically, the large portion of your leaders in the past have not taken the same perspective that you have? Is that then missing? I think that's a good idea. I'm not sure, do we want to actually try to argue to Muslims?

That to be a true Muslim. I'm not sure if that's. What we want to do, even though. I have, for example, many times in the past argued that vast difference between the Christian message and the Islamic message. is that the messenger, the one that we are presenting to people.

Jesus Christ is not a person that you can hold up entire books about their various military campaigns. But you can with Muhammad, and that one of the great dangers of Islam is that it has enshrined. At least a later understanding of this man, Mohammed, one that I would say evolved over time and not necessarily reflects. the original Mohammed if they're Yeah. We could even dig past.

the various historical developments to get to them. But Since that is what has been happening, since he has been called the best of humanity. Then what you've done. is you have established someone. Who has all of And there has not been any type of meaningful understanding of what came beforehand.

In the other books that The Quran says were also contained light and guidance. which would help you to in any way ameliorate Right.

Okay. of the militaristic aspects. Of that individual's character.

Now, thankfully, there are some Muslims that don't want to emphasize that, but they are unfortunately. In the minority, but they still exist. What do we do about them? And I keep hearing music right before my time runs out. All right, that's what happens when you go second on a radio show.

We come back, I've got a question for Robert Spencer, a question for James White, then they can go at each other. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We are right now in the midst of a very clearly presented debate. Um The nature of Islam, does it consistently point to violent jihad against unbelievers, or is it inconsistent and there are various expressions of Islam, some of which may be violent, some peace-loving? The former position is being advocated by Robert Spencer of jihadwatch.org, a best-selling author on Islam. The latter position is being advocated by James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and also a best-selling author, his book on Quran for Christians, well known as well. I have a question for Robert Spencer, then a question for James White, and then I want to give them opportunity to cross-examine one another.

Robert, when there's an attack in the world that looks like it could be terrorist, I immediately go to Jihad Watch because you seem to know pretty quickly whether it's a terrorist attack or not. And then we'll hear the constant mantra from all the leaders in the West that this is not Islam. I write about it constantly. I often reference Jihad Watch. What would you say to those who see the latest terrorist attack carried out by Islamic extremists, who say this is not Islam?

Can you take 60 seconds to say what you would say to them? when the The attackers themselves make it clear That they are acting in the name of Islam, it's foolhardy in the extreme to pretend that they're not. We should take them at their word. For example, today a Muslim in an airport in Flint, Michigan. a policeman in the neck while screaming Allahu Akbar.

And the police said, Is potentially an act of terrorism.

Well, I don't know what on earth the poor man could do to establish that it's an act of terrorism beyond what he's already done. We need to understand what the jihadis themselves are saying about themselves. in order to be able to counter them effectively. And this is the Willful ignorance on the part of authorities. which is designed to keep people essentially complete Yeah.

About the Full magnitude of this threat. Yeah. extraordinarily dangerous. and is going to expose Yeah. because it's not being countered honestly or effectively.

Just if you could expand just for, say, 30 more seconds, why do you think so many people get this wrong in the West? I'm sorry, you Almost inaudible there. Why do I think what? Why do you think so many in the West have gotten this wrong? If you could just take maybe 30 seconds.

There's a concerted effort by the media and by governing officials. to obfuscate terror attacks. And to downplay and denigrate, deny outright any Islamic connection to them. And so routinely we see in the mainstream media that there's a guy screaming Lahu Akbar, even quoting the Quran, saying like Omar Mateen did in Orlando, that he's doing it for ISIS, the Islamic State. And then we read that it's really about something else, that they're mentally ill, that they had family problems, something of that kind.

It seems as if there is a very high level effort to make sure that people do not realize the full magnitude of what is going on in this.

So it's somewhat suicidal, isn't it? I'm sorry? It is somewhat suicidal, is it not? guys could turn up the volume on this. It's very hard to hear suddenly.

All right. Not sure what happened there. I think everything's the same on our end, but we'll work on that. James, let me put this question to you, and then you can answer it on the other side of the break. And then Robert and James, you can interact and question one another.

But James, here's my question to you. I look at the way you have debated Muslims in the mosques and in other settings as a real model that you're familiar with their material. You're respectful to them, but you loudly and clearly present Jesus to them.

So my question to you, and you can answer it on the other side of the break and take a couple of minutes to answer, is... What concerns you in terms of gospel outreach when the latest terrorist attack takes place and people say, well, that's all Muslims are like ISIS. And a lot of Christians think, yeah, all Muslims are like ISIS. And if they say they're not, they're lying.

So James, you can answer that on the other side of the break. Take a couple minutes to do it. And then Robert, your turn to ask James a question to cross-examine him. And then back and forth, we will go. Angel World.

Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We're having an important discussion about the nature of Islam with two experts on the subject. Robert Spence, you can read his Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades, his website, jihadwatch.org. James White, you can read his book, What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran, his website, a-omin.org.

So, James, my question to you before the break was, what does it concern you when there's the latest Islamic terrorist attack? And a lot of Christians think, well, all Muslims are terrorists? What it What it does is it unfortunately closes doors an opportunity of presenting the gospel to individuals because it creates fear in people's minds. And certainly there is reason to. To be fearful of individuals who engage in such type of activity, I can't look into people's hearts and minds.

I can't look into that that man who today in Flint, Michigan, engages in this type of activity any more than I could look into the heart and mind of the individual that drove the van into the Muslims. uh just a few days earlier in London. I can't see Those things. And so, if you put yourself out there to present the gospel, you are risking yourself, and you have to place yourself in the hands of God at that point. But my real concern is, I'm looking at ways of opening up avenues of communication between Christians and Muslims, because for me, Given the nature of Islam.

Given that I do not believe, this has been an argument of mine for many, many years, I do not believe. that the original sources of Islam Are sufficient to be able to end the disputes between the various Muslim groups and the infighting. And remember, ISIS primarily kills Muslims. as their victims, as well as Christians and others. I don't believe that the original sources of Islam are able to answer those questions.

So, what's the only true Final solution, I believe it's the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so I want to see every opportunity of doors opening. And unfortunately, the way things are being dealt with, because the media Look, when someone yells Allahu Akbar, you need to recognize yes, this person is claiming an Islamic understanding of what they're doing. But then you also have to be honest and go look. Look, when a Christian does something.

Don't we want to be able to ask the question, how much this person really know? How well studied were they? What what perspective were they coming from? We want to have that type of freedom and we need to extend that freedom to the other side. And so it bothers me when people say, well, it's just all of Islam without making the necessary distinctions.

to recognize the differences that actually exist. All right, and I wanted to ask those two questions, gentlemen. only to emphasize not not um Just the truth about the various questions, but why you each do what you do? There's a different motivation behind it. Nonetheless, we come back to the discussion: is Islam consistently violent or not?

Can you be a genuine, devout, serious Muslim and be peace-loving and renounce violent jihad?

So, Robert, your time now to begin cross-examination. You can ask James a question, and if you need to clarify, go back and forth a little file, and then we'll switch over to James asking you.

So, over to you, Robert. Thank you. Actually, Dr. White already asked me a question earlier. What would you say to?

Muslims who prefer the The Meccan passages of the Quran, which generally teach a Form of tolerance. rather than the Medina passages that teach warfare and uh What I would say to them, and in leading up to my question to Dr. White, is to note that Mahmoud Mohammed Taha the great Sudanese Muslim theologian. was executed as a heretic. by the Sudanese government, which is a short Sharia government, an Islamic law, a government according to Islamic law, in 1985.

preaching exactly that.

So what I would ask Uh Dr. White in in in In turn, is What would he say? How would he? Ask those Muslims that claim that they are Meccan and not Medinan Muslims. How would he ask them?

that how would how does he propose that they protect themselves from charges of heresy. From the mainstream dominant view. that Islam teaches violence among Muslims. And that can he name, please, a school of jurisprudence or a sect. of Islam that actually teaches people peace and coexistence as equals with non-mofform.

Well, there are a number of things there, but I think Yeah.

Sort of. Establishes the thesis of the debate, unless you're going to say that the man who was was executed by the Sudanese government. then you have Muslims killing Muslims over disagreements on this very issue, which sort of is the point of why I even agreed to do this. and that is I know too many Muslims. who interpret Yeah.

of Islam, not just the original document. But they then interpret even the schools of jurisprudence in light of the history of Islam and the history of the development of the Through the Abbasid dynasty and so on and so forth, there's been a lot of theological. Look, if we can recognize. that even the view that the Quran is eternal amongst the Sunnis. I mean, this is a difference between the Sunnis and the Shiites.

If we can recognize that something as central as that developed over time, and it was not an original. Concept, but came into existence over time. If something as basic as that can be the Result of the process of the development of theology, then obviously many other things can as well, and the people looking from our perspective backwards say, Well, there's the process of development. This is the stream that I see. uh that I want to uh be a part of that express is what I understand of Islam.

And so The s the the terrible thing is that the Sudanese government would act in that way. And And that the only place you can be free to have that perspective is outside. side of where Shari becomes established. But why would it be? Wouldn't that be because of the nature of Sharia itself?

That would be because of the way that Sharia. Yeah. Applied As you know, Different ways of understanding and applying Sharia. The very fact that in African uh Islam context. Uh up until the past What?

120? twenty years, some actually more like eighty years, I guess. Uh there was tremendous uh Um uh freedom. even amongst Muslims and and Christians and Aboriginal tribes and so on and so forth. Yeah, but that was a retreat from Sharia.

That wasn't Sharia. Seventy percent of all the uh rulings are established by consensus, ijmah, among the various schools of jurisprudence. Uh the In Africa, there were many areas where Sharia was not applied, but that wasn't some moderate form of Sharia.

So I ask again, can you please identify, outside from one individual who was executed as a heretic, can you please identify a sector school of Islamic thought that teaches peace and coexistence with nonbelievers is equal? Peace and coexistence is Of course not. Of the fact that you have shirk and you have the understanding of the ummah. and the division between the Dar al-Harb and the Dar al-Islam. But I'm afraid that you're utilizing that terminology there in somewhat of a double entendre or something along those lines.

There is no question. Yeah. views those who submit to Yeah. To be in the right relationship. With a law, and they want to have God's law applied.

Across the board. The question Is there a Proper way, or is there any way at all that a believing person can interpret? those same historical laws in such a way That they, for example, believe that if you are in contract, if you are a member of. Of another society, if you are under the laws of another society, that you cannot engage. in rebellion against that society.

And as you know, That has been a decision that has been made many times in the history of Islam. Yeah, traditional. Until Muslims attain sufficient and strength in order to apply Islamic law, as I'm sure you're also aware.

So the question once again becomes Is there then a school? of thought that rejects violence against unbelievers, that rejects The idea that one must wage war against unbelievers and make them submit as inferiors. Under the rules of Sharia, To pay the jizya to not build new churches, that kind of thing. There is absolutely no question. That particular under Understanding of the application of, for example, Sura 9.

Is extremely prominent.

However, what I was trying to say You said, well, that's provisional until something takes place.

Well, what do you mean by well, I'm not asking questions right now even though you've been making a lot of statements, but When you say that Provisional, provisional in the sense that this person is allowed to engage in act of violence to. hasten this Yeah. in the sense that they accept that in this particular land this is the case case then of the law that that comes to the rulings are generally that If the Muslims attain a majority, Then they can begin to apply Islamic law, and some schools come. consider that it's impermissible to To engage in jihad activity until that point, but at the same time they're working toward that point. And so the remaining.

And of course, the reality that All of these schools one of the important elements of this Where ISIS and the others have rejected these Islamic schools, which you haven't brought up. is a necessity of the caliphate, which is why ISIS is so fixated. On the concept of the caliphate, right? Of course.

So they're different as well. Yeah. not killing other Muslims because it's some sort of a non-Muslim entity. killing other Muslims because it believes that it's the caliphate and that all Muslims owe allegiance to it. And that, therefore, those who are not allied with it are heretics or apostates.

and thus under the death penalty for heresy and apostasy. Which is why they also attack Al Qaeda, right?

Well, this is the same thing, that al-Qaeda is is a rival jihad group. And so I'm thinking. They don't accept the caliphate. But they're both working. Yeah.

principles that one must Do violence to those who are outside the fold. And that is the core of our debate here. Yeah. core and is taught by all the various groups. And it is not something that is Yeah.

Province of one group or another group, and then there's the other peaceful group because we still don't have the name of any peaceful group. All right, tell you what, just got to jump in here. Dr. White, we resume, finish your point, and then you can begin to question Robert Spencer. And feel free to question, make statements, be free in the interaction.

But we start, Dr. White. God of light, hear our cry, send a fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We continue the interaction with Robert Spencer and James White on the nature of Islam.

So James, over to you to respond and then to begin your questioning of Robert Spencer.

Well, what I was trying to uh get to there uh a number of times toward the end was uh the reason that there is so much infighting between these various groups is because they don't have the same theology and the same understanding. ISIS establishes the caliphate because they recognize that historically there has to be a caliph. For jihad to exist, and al-Qaeda specifically rejected that. If you read uh the the writings of al-Qaeda that they put out. They said that a state of jihad exists and there does not need to be a caliphate.

And so, my point was: isn't that one of the demonstrations of the fact that this idea that there is a single one true? True Islam, there's lots of differences, and one of those differences is this idea of the necessity of the caliphate. All right, so with that, we turn things now to James. You can. That was my question.

I'm sorry.

Sorry. My bad.

Sorry. Go ahead, Robert. I'm sure Robert was sitting there trying to talk and was muted the whole time. No, no, no, no. He's right here.

He's here. He's been here the whole time. Yeah, this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the Islamic theology of jihad. Al-Qaeda declared that there did not need to be a caliphate because al-Qaeda was basing, was saying that it was a defensive jihad in Islamic theology since the ninth century. Yeah.

Of the theology of jihad, there has been the idea of offensive jihad and defensive jihad. Offensive jihad requires a caliph. to call it, and the caliph has the responsibility to call it at least once a year. But In the absence of a caliph, There is it's not as if there isn't any jihad. Jihad is, as I said very much earlier, fard kefaya, an obligation on the whole community.

But If a Muslim land is attacked, Then jihad becomes fardain, which is an obligation on every individual Muslim and does not need the permission or the call of a caliph. And so what al-Qaeda was arguing was Was not that there's no caliph necessary, they weren't going against traditional Islamic theology, they wouldn't have dared. They were instead just Saying that we are because Muslim lands have been attacked. Osama bin Laden even invoked the presence of American soldiers in Saudi Arabia to Claim that Muslim lands were attacked, but also there was Iraq and Afghanistan after that. It became a much easier case to make.

Then ISIS, which Comes from Al-Qaeda, went with them one better. They didn't disagree with any of that exegesis. But they said that the caliphate was Now back. And so they were able to declare. their offensive jihad and the jihad did not all need to be defensive.

So when it distant Islamic apologist like Yasser Qadi comes in to the U.S. and he tells people there's no jihad because there's no caliph. he is being actively misleading because he knows full well that defensive jihad is something that is a responsibility of every individual Muslim if a Muslim land is attacked and that that was al-Qaeda's case. But he He fosters complacency and ignorance among non-Muslims who aren't aware of jihad theology by making it seem as if all these various jihads around the world today are illegitimate since there's no recognized caliph.

So when he actually Agivized entirely. lectures where he contextualizes those, talks about both offensive, defensive, talks about the caliph. Yeah. the information concerning the necessity Yeah. considered to be under contract.

Oath of loyalty. to a nation and the relevance of that Is that just what He's giving to the Muslims, or was I just not supposed to be listening to those things? How do you how do you have knowledge of of his heart and intentions, even when Yeah. And his family, because ISIS wants him dead. I never claimed any knowledge of his heart or intentions.

Uh that's quite quite I just called him a jihadi apologist, didn't she? Yeah, well, that's what he is. That's obvious from his words, from his. from what he has said. But the fact is that the ISIS has them on a list Because he is affiliated with Brotherhood.

groups. The Muslim Brotherhood is a very Large rival of ISIS in the world. Wanting to establish a caliphate of its own. They had their big chance in Egypt in 2012, and they blew it when Mohammad Morsi was toppled from. power in 2013.

And Muslim Brotherhood groups in the United States are quite extensive and active. As a matter of fact, every major Muslim organization in the United States is linked to the Brotherhood.

So the Brotherhood organizations in the U.S. are able to fool people very easily by claiming that they condemn ISIS, they hate ISIS, they don't want anything to do with that caliphate, and that's all true, but not because they reject it in principle or reject the theology, it's because they're rivals. They want their own caliphate, and so of course they're going to denigrate ISIS, just like Yeah. Chevrolet.

So, for some reason, I've taken the time to actually listen. Um to Yeah, lectures against ISIS, I didn't get the Ford and Chevrolet thing. Yeah. Was much more theological in regards to historical. developments, the idea of the the Karijite.

and uh the the use of violence And it wasn't anything about Fords and Chevys. Is that just simply meant to be deceptive? You misunderstood my analogy. What I was saying is they're both selling cars.

Okay. same business. They both want the They're just two rivals who are trying to get to it in different ways. And that's the same thing with ISIS and the Muslim Project. Brotherhood.

Yeah. Meant to be deceptive?

Well, as c uh it might well have been. After all, we have to remember that Muhammad said war is defeat. And the corruption. on in chapter 3 verse 28 says that uh you can deceive unbelievers In a commentary on that verse, one of the companions of Muhammad, Abu Ad-Darda, says, We smile in the faces of some people, but behind their backs we curse them. And so that cannot be discounted as a possibility, certainly.

But as I say, I'm not claiming to know his heart. Uh the fact is, however, that Muslim Brotherhood is dedicated to The establishment of the caliphate, groups that Qadi is involved with are connected to the Muslim Brotherhood.

So it's a perfectly reasonable surmise. that he has no objection to the problem question. Of the establishment of the caliphate in principle, he does. doesn't like the ISIS one because it's not in his group, it's a rival group. Would there be would there be anything that uh that could be said.

from anyone who's ever spoken at ISNA. Are they not automatically by speaking ISNA connected in utilizing your terminology to the Muslim Brotherhood?

Well, I'll tell you something. To speak in a group, and I saw a big kuka. I would walk out. I wouldn't speak. And if a Muslim situation Jihad rejected Yeah.

Violence against unbelievers wants peaceful coexistence. Why would he go speak at a group like ISNA?

So, everybody, it is not, from your perspective, Stands for Yeah. hot. I didn't say that. I said that a speaker who comes in, who may have nothing to do with this. But he should know he has a responsibility.

Sponsors are. And they seize. Yeah. admitted ties to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. Then he should know better than to see.

speak there unless He wants the association and has no trouble with it.

So there's there's Always unanimity of perspective from everybody who's involved in E every every uh conference that you speak at, there's Unanimity between yourself and the market.

Well, of course there isn't, but you're, I think, perhaps intentionally missing the point. The fact is that I am held to Very strict standards, as I'm sure. You are as well in this, and that is we. We are always tarred. Yeah.

with various people. If you look at the wrap sheets on me from various leftists, gentlemen, I hate to interrupt. But we're out of time. I wanted to give you both to the last second. We'll post this on our website, thelineoffire.org.

And we'll put the audio up on YouTube. Gentlemen, I gave you to the last second. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.