The Battle for the Soul of America, and a Report from Iraq

Yes, our religious liberties, our freedoms are really under attack in ways you might not even know. Um It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, I hope you had a good 4th of July yesterday. And the theme of the 4th, Liberty, Freedom. It's a theme that we'll pursue today on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us.

I'm not giving out the phone number now because we've got a few special interviews coming your way over the next couple of hours.

So I want you to stay tuned, listen with an open heart and an open mind. Let me remind you, if you don't yet have our app, our line of fire app where you can listen on your phone wherever you are, where you can catch up with past broadcasts wherever you are, and then connect with our website for our articles and videos. Just go to the... App Store with Apple. If you have an iPhone or if you have an Android phone, go to the Google Play Store.

Download the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown, and you can start listening immediately. All right, before I bring on my first special guest and we begin to talk about religious liberty issues here in America, let me read to you a quote from Benjamin Franklin. He said this Nothing brings more pain. than too much pleasure.

Nothing more bondage Then too much. Liberty.

Now, some of you can absolutely relate to the first part. Nothing brings more pain than too much pleasure because perhaps before you knew the Lord you lived a life of real fleshly indulgence. and you did whatever your body and mind want it to do, and you found yourself suffering because of it. When I see people that have everything in this world naturally speaking. Maybe a guy that's got every imaginable girl just chasing him down and spends more money in a day than some of us earn in a month or a year.

and seems just to have everything going for him or some gal seems to have everything going for him. I'm talking about in the natural, the flesh. I look at it, I feel bad for them. Because I know that the deep peace and the deep satisfaction and the deep sense of well-being and security that comes from being in right relationship with God, right relationship with others, they're not going to have that.

So, many of you can relate to that, that indulgence does not bring. lasting freedom lasting joy, lasting contentment. And then Franklin says this, nothing brings more bondage. than too much liberty. And he didn't mean that America should not be a free country.

But he meant that for there to be a free country, we needed to have some restraints in place. And there are God-given restraints that God's put into the heart of human beings worldwide, which is why we have certain shared morality worldwide. In other words, not just survival of the fittest. We recognize certain things are right and certain things are wrong, even fundamentally transcending religion and non-religion and things like that. But with America.

This was a great experiment. to have the government have as little control as as was established by the fathers, and for the people to be such a determining force, to not have a royalty ruling with military power, This was in many ways a great experiment. And it's just like your children when they're three or four years old you only entrust them with so much. When they're 12, 13, 14 with more, when they're 20, 30, you could turn a business over to them.

So it's the same with us. As we mature As we prove ourselves trustworthy, we can handle more liberty. But that liberty comes with restraint. that liberty comes with certain principles. and their principles on which our nation was founded, religious liberty being one of the fundamental ones.

The principles on which it was founded that based everything on a Creator who had given us inalienable rights. Friends, we mess with that, we fall into bondage. We cast off God as king, we find ourselves bound, not free. Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

There's an important new book out, published by Oxford University Press, debating religious liberty and discrimination. On the one side, the side that we would say would be that the left side or the quote progressive side, Professor John Corvino. I met John face to face, had some very cordial interaction with him, had him on the radio. We were supposed to do a debate a couple years ago on same-sex marriage progress or regress, but had to cancel that. We might do it in the future.

So, John Corvino takes a side that in many ways I would. differ with John's PhD professor and chair of the philosophy department at Wayne State University. On the other side, the side that I would agree with and be in harmony with, Sheriff Gergis and Ryan T. Anderson. Ryan is one of the leading conservative thinkers today.

You may have seen him on TV debating these very issues. He's the William E. Simon Senior Research Fellow at the Heritage Foundation. We've sat side by side in panel discussions, and we've had him on the air with us before.

So glad to have Ryan back with us today on the line of fire. Thanks for joining us, sir. Sure thing. Happy to be with you.

So um Ryan If you could explain Professor Corvino's point, he opens the book speaking about religious liberty, not religious privilege.

So the things that we think are fundamental for us as Americans and our religious freedoms, so we'd want exemptions from certain laws and things like that, he's looking at as some kind of special privilege. Could you give us his point of view? Sure. I mean, um uh John's gonna want to argue that if the um law is a good law and if it's a good enough law uh for everyone else There's no special reason why religious people should get what he calls a get out of the law free card. Uh playing on the Monopoly.

Get out of a jail-free card. Mm-hmm. And so John would argue that certain anti-discrimination laws, SOGI laws, adding sexual orientation and gender identity to Our anti-discrimination statutes, those are good laws because they prevent um harm from being inflicted upon um LGBT Americans. And so religious people, when they argue for a religious liberty exemption from those laws, that's more akin to a religious privilege so that they can break the law. um in a way that other people cannot.

And obviously, I mean, the nice thing about the format of this book, a debating book where we go back and forth, is that I disagree with John on both of those points. I don't think.

Soji laws. um are justified. And so I don't think there's a justification for the government To um add sexual orientation and gender identity as protected classes Under our law, nor do I think a religious liberty exemption from those burdensome laws is a form of privilege. If anything, it's a form of privilege to have sexual orientation and gender identity as a protected class. exempting someone from the burden of that law is not privileging uh their position It's merely saying that we're going to protect coexistence and saying that their position won't be a Panelized.

Alright, so let's then look at the SOGI laws themselves. Decades ago, these were not on the books.

So you didn't have a lawsuit. You can't discriminate based on sexual orientation. You can't discriminate based on gender identity. whether someone's born this way or not, we both dispute that. You can't argue with the fact that most people did not decide, hey, I think I want to be gay or I think I want to be confused about my gender identity.

So this is just who the people are. They didn't ask for this. Why shouldn't they be a category just the same as race or ethnicity or gender? Why shouldn't we have laws that specifically protect them from discrimination?

Well, it depends how those laws are crafted. Because what's interesting, you said, you know, decades ago we didn't have these laws. In some jurisdictions, we did. But they were interpreted back then and when they were ratified As not to be a law that would punish someone because they believe marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

So there were several states that had a SOGI law on the books. while continuing to define and to defend marriage properly understood. It's only in light of a reinterpretation of SOGI law, in which we now say that believing that marriage is a male-female relationship just is to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. uh believing that Male is a biological category, not a social or psychological category, just is. to discriminate on the basis of uh gender identity.

So the problem here is that Um These laws are now employing an overly expansive understanding of what counts as discrimination. Uh I'll give you one very clear example about how to think about this. Imagine if there was a hospital that said We won't do chemotherapy for you because you're transgender. To my mind, that would be an unjust form of discrimination on gender identity. They're taking the gender identity of the patient.

Into consideration where it's irrelevant, the gender identity of the cancer patient doesn't matter to the type of cancer treatment that they need. And then they're treating that patient less than equally. That's radically different than a Catholic hospital that says we won't perform a sex reassignment surgery. And right now, Catholic hospitals are being sued. because they have re refused to do sex reassignment surgeries, And the lawsuit says they're, quote, discriminating on the basis of gender identity.

When these SOGI statutes were passed, Um, no one at the time thought that they would be used to persecute bakers, florists and photographers who can't celebrate same sex weddings. that they would be used to shut down Catholic adoption, that they would be used to litigate against. a Christian hospital that can't do sex reassignment surgery. What people thought was that they would protect you know, a gay customer from being kicked out of a pizza shop just because they're gay. Right.

Which almost Um never happened. When was the last time you heard? about a business owner who said, I don't serve gay people. Exactly. I don't do gay weddings.

There's a huge difference. Right. So, if you think, for example, of the controversial law or bill in Mississippi, where we're being told, I contrasted an article you wrote giving an accurate overview of it versus the New York Times making it this hate-filled anti-discrimination thing that's going to hurt people. But, for example, it said specifically: someone comes into a hospital, no matter who they are, no matter what their condition, you take care of them. But if they say to a doctor, we want you to perform sex change surgery, that doctor can opt out.

So, what you're saying then is when When these laws were introduced, because religious freedoms were the bedrock of our country and everyone understood that we had fundamental religious objections to participating in a same-sex quote wedding ceremony or who would have dreamed of it then, forcing a doctor or a hospital to engage in sex change surgery. No one looked at it in that way. And yet ultimately, as I've said for years, those who came out of the closet want to put us in the closet. Not universally, but ultimately it's not a matter of equality. When the river meets the road, it's really not an issue of equality, is it?

Sure. I mean, I think that's things of it this way. The simultaneously, the definition of discrimination has grown. while an understanding of religious liberty has shrunk.

So that these anti-discrimination statutes are now deeming good actions as discriminatory and religious liberty. protections are now being reinterpreted to be merely freedom of worship. And you heard this in the previous administration. the free exercise of religion was regularly redefined as freedom of worship.

So, the space for religious believers, their protections get smaller. And then the burdens, the government regulations Uh Grow larger and larger. That's what's creating This kind of flashpoint that we're seeing, whether it's the HHS contraception mandate, whether it's Transgender surgery, whether it's gay marriage and bakers, flowers, and photographers. Those two forces are coming together.

So what do we do just with the soundbites? You've had to deal with this for years now because of the nature of communication these days. When we're told, yeah, yeah, you have your freedom of religion, but there's not freedom of consequences. It makes for a good soundbite, but doesn't that fundamentally undercut the meaning of freedom of religion? Oh, of course.

I mean, if if if the government says, Oh, you're free to live out your faith, but then we're free to penalize you because of it Entirely undercut the point of the free exercise of religion. As we saw just a week or two ago now with the Trinity Lutheran case. The Supreme Court said seven to two. that if there's a public benefit that this school qualifies for, and you say they're not getting it because they're religious. You are burdening, you are penalizing their free exercise of religion.

'Cause you're saying merely because they are religious they are not receiving what they otherwise are entitled to. under a government benefit program. playground surface recycled. Mm-hmm. In the same way, if they say, oh yeah.

Green family, the owners of Hobby Lobby. You're free to run your business how you want to, but if you don't pay for these abortion-causing drugs, we're going to fine you millions of dollars a year. That's not free exercise of religion. That's someone exercising their religion and then being penalized for it. in a gratuitous and unnecessary way.

Exactly. And again, we're not talking about the free exercise of our religion causes us to go seize houses and neighborhoods and burn them down so that there should be penalties for breaking the law. We're simply practicing our faith and, yes, being penalized for it. All right, we've got a few more minutes with Ryan Anderson. When we come back on the other side of the break, I want to ask two questions.

One, are these debates fruitful? Can we actually change thinking? And two, why is his chapter in the book, major chapter, called Against the New Puritanism. The new book, Debating Religious Liberty and Discrimination. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Ryan Anderson, one of the leading Christian conservative voices today. together with Sheriff Gyerges. uh writing along with Ryan and Professor John Corvino, who's on the other side of the argument, they have a new book published by Oxford University Press. debating religious liberty and discrimination. And Ryan, I'm a debater, love to have formal moderated debates in universities and other places like that.

So I believe that debates have their place. But when we look at polling, when we look at the opinions of the younger generation, they seem to have turned in so many ways against values that we might have taken for granted in a previous generation. Can this debate be won? Is it just a waste of ink, a waste of words, or can hearts and minds actually be changed? You're on college campuses.

You do this face-to-face before secular media. Can we win this battle and turn the tide?

Well, sure. I mean, with God, things, with God, all things are possible, and there's a. There's a role for um everyone given his or her Uh, yeah.

So this won't just be one making intellectual arguments. There also needs to be a spiritual component, an emotional component, a social media, a mainstream media. I mean, all of this kind of different components. To this. It'll be a multi-pronged effort.

My contribution is on the intellectual side. And so we've engaged in an academic Uh a written debate. that's meant to be accessible to nonacademics.

So even though it's published by Oxford University Press, the book is written at a level so that anyone who has a high school college education could read the book, understand the arguments, Um and learn from it. And we view our contribution here as I don't think I'm going to persuade kind of the ardent convinced LGBT activists. Um that he or she is wrong and that I'm right. But I think I can um weaken the resolve of that person. in thinking that I'm stupid and evil and must be punished.

So part of the reason of this is to help the people who are on the far other side of the spectrum, the far left side of the spectrum, to say, actually, wait, wait, religious conservatives, they're not the reincarnation of the KKK. The Westboro Baptist Church doesn't speak For all Southern Baptist than There's a good argument to be made that People who believe what the church has always taught about marriage, that it's the union of husband and wife, shouldn't be penalized in American law. That's one audience. Another audience are the people on our side of the debate. We need to help them better understand the issues, better articulate the argument.

They're going to be having these conversations at PTA meetings, at Little League practices, at the water cooler, um, in the dorm room with their college friends. But we need to be able to um help educate our own people on how to think about and talk about these issues. And then third audience, there are people who are undecided on this issue. People who personally were in favor of gay marriage, but they're also in favor of the freedom of the baker. There's a there's a contingent of people who thought, look, Gay people should be able to get married.

But conservative religious people shouldn't have to give up their beliefs either. And so we can persuade people in the middle to say on these religious liberty debates, Um We're Not the ones imposing our values on others. We're responding to what Sharif and I call the new Puritanism. the new Puritans in the United States. are people saying because we are in favor of contraception, you have to pay for it.

Because we're in favor of abortion, you have to cover it on your health. Insurance. because we're in favor of gay marriage. You have to bake us. A gay wedding cake.

That's the new form of Puritanism that we see. And so middle persuadable people in this debate can be one. to our side of the debate. Yeah, and the three reasons you articulated for debating 100% with you in terms of that. And first and foremost, we articulate things for those who agree, and now they're fortified and strengthened because they're under constant bombardment.

And Ryan, I'm on the front lines of this day and night, not by choosing, but by calling. And yet there are many times where there are nuances of things. I'm looking for, okay, how do I articulate this? What are the real arguments? And I'll look at what you've put out and think, perfect.

This is what I'll share. I don't need to write my article. You've said it.

So you're helping many. And yes, I believe with God's help, the tide will turn with folks like you doing your part.

So thanks so much for the hard work and the effort. And even crafting it as a new Puritanism. I think that's a brilliant move.

So may God bless your efforts. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Again, friends, the book.

debating religious liberty and discrimination. The authors John Corvino, Ryan Anderson, and Sheriff Gerges.

Okay. Uh in the next half hour. I'm going to be speaking with A man and a woman, a licensed therapist and a long time school teacher. About extreme discrimination within the NEA. the National Education Association, which is America's largest union and what, 150 years old, something like that.

A little bit more. You, I think, are going to be shocked when you hear about this. But I believe beginning next week, we're going to be making a special announcement about my new book, Saving a Sick America.

So hold on before ordering or thinking about that right now, because we're going to be offering a special Well, as we do this before new books come out, signed, numbered copies of the first printing.

So the first few hundred we do that for. It's kind of a collector's item. We're going to be announcing that next week. But when I research the role of the Bible In American life. And I'll talk about that more next week in conjunction with Saving a Sick America.

When I when I Saw, number one, that it was even more influential in our early life and history than I had realized. I knew it pretty well. But the more I dug, the more amazed I was. When you look at the textbooks that were used, the primers to learn the English language, to learn to spell, to learn grammar. And when you see The extraordinary amount of scripture and Christian truth that was in them, just for your average American kid learning to read and write.

And this went not just in the 1600s and 1700s, but well into the 1800s. until at times even late 1800s. What happened was the National Education Association and those of like heart and mind of influence in academia. Swerved in a more and more secular direction that took us away from biblical foundations.

Now, the Bible was not the mandatory religious book of America when we were founded as a nation. We did not have a mandatory religion or a state religion. We were vastly Christian in our overall viewpoint and Christian nation in terms of the majority faith of the people.

Okay. But, but, in point of fact, In point of fact, uh There there was Massive harmony on certain fundamental values throughout much of the nation. You had the skeptics and those that opposed, but we were very much religious people. To the extent we got away from that, And it was those biblical foundations that ultimately caused us to throw out slavery, because that was debated from our earliest days. The fact is, to the extent we threw that out, we have fallen increasingly into bondage, and we find ourselves in that state today.

We'll be right back. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks friends for joining us on the line of fire 866-348-7884. I am not paranoid. I am not a conspiracy. theorist. And looking under every rock For Some Radical Islamic activist.

or radical leftist activist. a radical LGBT activist. A radical atheist, activist, and thinking they're, or Jews taking over the world, or whichever group is taking over the world, or Illuminati, or the Rothschilds, or whoever. I don't live like that. And I understand there's a devil who wants to destroy us.

By us, I mean you and me, whoever you are, because he hates us because we're created in God's image. I understand that. I recognize that.

However, While I am not a conspiracy theorist, while I am not paranoid, while I don't have a security entourage of 50 people going wherever I go because everybody's out to get me. On the other hand, I'm a realist. And I see. what's been happening in our society, in our country, for years and years. I see where things are going.

We've sounded the alarm over and again. And Finally, people recognize, more and more people recognize why we have been sounding the Alarm.

So, in a moment, I'm going to introduce two guests to you. And I think Many of you are going to be surprised with what you hear. And this is firsthand. on the front lines. This is something going on as we speak.

These are realities that are being lived out and experienced, not my projection for 38 years from now.

Okay? The NEA, the National Education Association, Is not just a teacher's association with people working together. for the common good of our children. And of course, that's the fundamental purpose theoretically. But they are also quite ideologically driven.

You know, you might ask, why does the NEA need to take a position on abortion, for example? Or on homosexual issues. I thought the goal is just better education for children. This is one of the most clearly left leaning Groups in America. It is highly, highly influential.

And it has an agenda that is hostile to many of the things that you and I hold. Dear. When I was doing research for my new book, coming out in just a few months, saving a sick. America. When I was looking at the Bible in our history and in our education.

in particular. I was struck by how much the NEA drove things to the left. over a period of years. beginning in the late 1800s and aggressively thereafter. There are fine people within the organization.

There are fine people who have given their lives to educate our kids, and even if I disagreed with some of the approach or philosophy, I know their motivation is good. And many of them have worked tirelessly. God knows how many teachers there are in the public and private education system that have given decades of their lives to helping children. And they've done it often at very little financial compensation. I appreciate that and admire that.

But we must expose a radical leftist agenda for what it is. We must expose it in all of its bias and bigotry and intolerance and narrowness and yes, anti-Christian. Spirit. We'll be right back. It's time to change the world.

Change the world. Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Just uh this week I received an urgent notice from some of my friends. who had an ex-gay educators booth at the NEA Annual Convention, National Education Association. and the NEA was potentially going to ban them. Throw the booth out because it was allegedly discriminatory.

So, I want to find out firsthand what's been going on there. And then, I want to find out a little bit more about the NEA in general. I'm joined by Susan Halverson. She's retired as a public school teacher for a couple of years now, but taught in public schools for 27 years, member of the NEA for 26 years, NEA delegate to the National Convention for 22 years, and the NEA X-Gay Educators Caucus Chair. For 10 years.

Along with Susan, I'm joined by David Pickup himself, XK. He's a Christian licensed marriage and family therapist. He operates two private psychotherapy practices in Dallas and Los Angeles, working primarily with men dealing with unwanted same-sex attraction. And he underwent extensive training in authentic reparative therapy under the direction of Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, who, of course, is a key leader in that field.

So, Susan and David, great to have you with us today on the line of fire. Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. Hi, Sue. All right, so sue.

Tell us first present tense what's happened this week with the NEA and also explain what your booth is about, why you're there, and what your message is.

Okay. Well, we're actually a caucus.

So I'm I you have to be an NEA member. And then Um when you have a topic like I do, EPSK. educators um been people can join the caucus and you can have a voice there. Um So fire. I found out a couple of days into the convention that Uh we were um scheduled to be booted out.

Because our Supposedly our material was offensive, distracting and discriminatory. Um So That was a big surprise to me, but although they've tried to kick us out before. Sure. So right now what's happening is they haven't actually come to vote on it yet. The delegates will discuss That issue and then vote on it.

We're on I think they're on number seventy new business item now and what we're number eighty six. Really? coming up soon. And what's your understanding, since there's been pressure on you in the past, and they have all kinds of other viewpoints represented there, why are you folks being singled out like this?

Well, our caucus is Absolutely the most hated caucus of any caucus. I think it's because of the dialogue that you're born gay, you can't change, and if you try, it's harmful. And so when they see X gay, it just infuriates them because it goes against the uh dialogue that's been perpetrating for so long. Yeah, now, David, since this is your own testimony and life experience, since you help men dealing with unwanted same-sex attraction, it must be frustrating for you to see the bias and bigotry that comes against you in the name of tolerance. How do you deal with that?

Well That's a great question. And I deal with that with truth and compassion. That's always my number one and two motivation. And what the truth is, is that my clients, every single one of them, including myself, knew that homosexual feelings were caused by trauma. a short version of that, but nevertheless, trauma in child childhood that when resolved, homosexual feelings actually lessen and dissipate.

And for some men, they move on to women. In other words, real reparative therapy really does work. And so When they try to assume that we're telling lies and putting we heard stories. While I was there. Sue can attest to this: that we put electrodes on people, use electroshock therapy, aversion techniques, shaming spiritual boot cancer, and all this kind of thing.

Uh it it's I would say it's intolerable, but I don't feel like it's intolerable because I do believe that we are speaking truth and we're speaking it in love. And I don't think that there can ever be anything than that. They think better than that. They think that we're establishing hate and false science and nothing could be further from the truth.

So that's why this works, is to just simply express our differences, but they seem to only demean and display intolerance. They can't have a civil conversation, at least a lot of them. Yeah, all too often that's been the case. It's anything but tolerant or open-minded. And I want to talk more about the whole issue of reparative therapy, separate myth from fact, and then talk about a major legal case you're involved with in California.

But Sue, what have you run into at the table in years past or now? What type of interaction, what type of hostility have you encountered from people just coming right up to you there?

Well, first I want to say our name of our caucus is Ex-Gay Educators Caucus.

So People always want me to change the name of it. but nobody can figure out what name to tell me. And I decided last night for sure I should keep the name. because X Ks are discriminated against. Totally.

And that's the whole point. Ever since I've been the chair which the last ten years. People don't even want to Sit with me hardly. They don't want to. They pretend like they don't even know me sometimes.

I mean, it's just. hostility and just they're afraid. It's almost like they feel like they're bullied. you know. Last year I had someone join the caucus and then he came back the next day to get his membership back.

because his friends had seen him there. And, you know, we're bullying them about it.

So that's how I felt this year was the worst bullying I've ever had in intolerance. People were. Just I I was so sick after four days of it that I just I actually went and reported it. And I do have to be honest, All the bullying was by the LGBT caucus members. Because and I know that because they were wearing pink ribbons.

You get a ribbon if you join a caucus.

So I went and reported it. Um And It did that.

So now the last two days I haven't had. harassment, but they come up in accused they just trying to scream at me. They just it was just I can't even remember everything they said, but it was very attacking. And Sue, do you know, Sue, just off the top of your head roughly. How many people are in your caucus, and how many people are involved in the LGBT caucus?

Our caucus only has thirty members. And you have to have twenty-five to have a caucus. I can tell you a lot of the reason is people are afraid to join. They're afraid. Absolutely afraid.

Even if they agree with us, They're scared to joint. And that, you know Yeah, I mean it's extraordinary with that amount of people that that few would be willing to join and that this handful of people, 30 people, are such a threat. And I don't know myself what the numbers are of LGBT caucus. I'm not sure if you're aware. Quite a few.

It's quite a few. It's a lot, but I don't know. They don't give numbers. Just generally speaking, though, one of my friends who was a professor who taught school teachers and taught out administration. She was telling me whenever she was at the NEA meetings, there was an extraordinarily disproportionate representation of the homosexual community.

She said it was almost like a 30% representation as opposed to 3% of the general population, meaning that gay activists have found it's important to get involved in the education system for the purpose of indoctrination. David, if you had to talk about actual bullying and tolerance, what have you experienced at the convention this year? Let me give you a prime example. One lady that walked up to us we were talking about how All people should be tolerant and hear people that they disagree with. And she honestly, now I'm quoting.

She honestly looked at us and said, I don't care about tolerance. This was from an LGBT delegate activist.

So that gives you a clue on the kind of thing that comes our way. And again, you mentioned false accusations. Do you think that some of these people? David, actually believe this, that you are there kidnapping people and giving them you know kidnapping teenagers and giving people shock treatment to get the gay out of them? Do you think they some people actually believe this and that's why they look at you like this?

It's kind of belief in some cases, in my opinion, and kind of not. I don't think there's really anybody who would just calm down for a minute or two and actually. Consider the evidence of that. I don't think there's a lot of people who actually believe that. But that's the thing about groupthink.

And I know you know what groupthink is, and that's the thing about hysterics. And when people move into kind of a mob mentality, they tend to just spout things off because they're projecting their own psychological issues or emotional issues, what have you, onto other people because it doesn't fit with their narrative. And so they're trying to control the narrative by being controlling. And they're telling us it's about love and acceptance. and their behavior doesn't match that.

Yeah, in short, that sums it up.

Well, we come back. I just want to find out a little bit more about the leftist views of the NEA from Sue and then from David, what's happening in California. Friends. This is serious stuff. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Sue Halverson and David Pickup about discrimination. from the NEA, National Educators Association, discrimination against those who have come out of homosexuality and want that to be something that is known and heard. Sue, this is not the only position of the NEA, though, that represents a strong leftist position. The NEA has been openly pro-abortion, for example, or pro- same-sex, quote, marriage.

So you've been with the NEA for over a quarter of a century. How fundamental are these views to the NEA? It's the largest union in America. It's, what, over 150 years old? How far left is it really from an insider's perspective?

Well, I think the best way to explain it, a lot of people don't understand the NEA. It actually is run by the democratic process, and it's one person, one vote.

So if you run to be a delegate and I was elected by my local or you could be elected by your state. Whoever's elected gets to go. Anyone can put in any item they want to talk about.

So you can think of any gamut there could possibly be. And you can put in a new business item. There I think there's one hundred of fifty of them this year. and then it's discussed from the floor and voted on.

So the problem is, yes, I I guess the people that are more on the left viewpoint are the ones that become delegates and get involved. And so because it's one person, one vote. And um so there's any gamut of of leftist things that have nothing to do with education whatsoever. You know, it's across the board. But I think too, people feel really bullied because These activists there's a mentality there, you know.

I think it's more people with you know, more central or or right views would get involved. Changes could be made, but a lot of people give up right away because they think, oh, I don't see any change.

So you have to stick with it. Yeah, so isn't that remarkable? It's like people complaining about an elected official when they didn't go out and vote.

So it's simply a matter of for whatever reason. It could be that many conservatives pulled out of some of the mainstream educational system or differed with some of the direction. And rather than stick around and try to bring about change, maybe if we're primarily into homeschooling and Christian school, we didn't see the need to be involved. And that's the problem. Obviously, we have to educate the way we see best, but by pulling out, we leave this void.

And it's something that needs to be addressed. David, you're facing now discrimination on a more overt level in the state of California, and there's a battle to push this forward in other states as well, some successfully, to say that if you're a minor, and you have unwanted same-sex attraction, let's say you're a 17-year-old. Boy, let's say you're raised in a Christian home, you share conservative moral beliefs. Let's say you were sexually molested by an uncle from the ages of 9 to 11. And as you came into puberty and began to develop sexually, you began to question things and were confused and found yourself attracted to other boys.

And you wondered, is this normal or not? You're troubled by it, and does it go back to the sexual abuse?

So you want professional counseling to try to get to the root of this. Your parents are for it. That's illegal now in the state of California. The same state whereby, if you had, say, two lesbian moms and an eight-year-old boy who identified as a girl. They could go for counseling and the counselor would tell the boy to dress as a girl and use a girl's name and within a couple years to be on hormone blockers to stop the onset of puberty.

That's perfectly legal in California. We're talking about extreme. discrimination. What are you doing about that, David? I'm glad you asked, Michael, because first of all, your listeners need to know that you're one hundred percent correct.

The reason why I know this is because I'm one of the main people in the thick of these battles. I'm a national lobbyist now for the Task Force for Therapeutic Equality. And we have successfully fought many of these state bans. But in California has led the way, no shock. And if your listeners are In a state of shock themselves, or if they almost can't believe this state of affairs, or if they are aghast at all this.

then I in a sense, I hope that they are because it really is this bad and it's getting worse. Can you imagine a little boy walking into my office in California and any other state that actually bans this therapy. That really does work and that really helps them work out these issues, and saying, no, even though you've been sexually abused by a pedophile, I can't help you change your feelings because it's illegal. It's beyond shocking, and that's why those of us who are on the front lines are speaking up, and we hope. That people in your audiences and all over the world will finally begin to.

be cajoled or inspired to speak up and join our causes. And I'm happy for people to contact me, and I'm sure Sue would very much appreciate people contacting her to join her own caucus as well. Yeah, and and David, are you in in the midst of a lawsuit uh with California? Technically, yes. There are actually two lawsuits.

Both are in a sense in limbo right now because the U. S. Supreme Court, for whatever reason, we don't know, has declined to review the case. We think that once these goes these bands get more out and more dichotomous with the rest of the states, we think that they how can they not hear something as important to American freedom as this? But because this involves religious rights as well, because many counselors working under churches are licensed therapists, and so now you've got a religious.

rights problem, which is guaranteed religious rights, as you know, are guaranteed by our Constitution.

So we are fighting very hard, and we're waiting for the day when the mainstream media picks this up because it'll catch fire, we hope, and increase the debate So that eventually the U.S. Supreme Court will take Uh the the case. Yeah, it is extraordinary, and it's nothing less than discrimination. David and Sue, I appreciate you both. Being on the front lines.

And here's what I want to do. First, folks, could you pray for David Pickup and Sue Halverson? As they're on the front lines, you have no idea how you often feel like. You're the only one out there. You have no idea how how Often you feel isolated.

I I've spoken at events Uh Put together by ex-gay leaders, and then we had to do it where the location wasn't announced publicly because of gay activists that were going to try to shut it down. And then you showed up, you had maybe 30, 40 people meeting in a stealth. I'm talking, seriously, that's how crazy. It's become.

So we're going to take this interview, the audio, and put it up on YouTube. And then, Sue and David, if you just both email me, okay, what's the best website to go to, or what's the best way to connect, or if you just want to refer to an article that we post, we'll put some links up with the video as well. And this way folks can call, can stand, can do what they know how to do, be educated properly. Of course, we address these things all the time. And friends, can I ask you to pray for our guests again for strength, for courage as they stand, and that Light would triumph in darkness, that truth would triumph over lies.

God bless you both. Thank you so much for joining me on the air today. All right, we are out of time, but we're moving from here. to Iraq. Yeah.

front lines of mission work in Iraq. Why? when a young family uproot and go over to northern Iraq. Serve. the Kurdish people there and beyond.

Talk about that when we come back. Let's pray, let's believe, let's stand together. It's time for change. And friends, make sure you check out our resources. 30% off on all of our DVDs this week.

Go to AskDr. Brown. Mm-hmm. So why would a young family leave America and go settle in northern Iraq? to reach the Kurds, to reach the Muslims, to reach others.

What does the world look like from over there? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

It is my joy to be with you today, back live on the air after the 4th of July. Michael Brown here. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire.

Some folks say to me, Why don't just preach the gospel? Why do you get involved in these cultural, moral, social issues? And for me, this is part of preaching the gospel. The same God who laid it on my heart to reach out to my Jewish people, the same God who laid it on my heart to raise up a ministry school to send out laborers to the nations. is the same God That called me to address moral and cultural issues.

This is the world in which we live. God's Word has something to say about all of these things. For me, it's both and. But I want you to understand That's a major, major part of my life, for those of you who don't know this, a major part of my life. is devoted to taking the gospel around the world.

I have had the privilege of being overseas more than 150 trips now. around the world. Uh to to Asia alone I've gone Oh. almost fifty times, including going on 25 trips to India. And I mentioned Asia because these are long trips.

You know, sometimes it's a day and a half or two days of travel before you arrive at your destination for a few days of ministry and then head home.

So I've spent several years of my life overseas with joy, just combined with all the trips. And one of my greatest joys. is to see grads from our ministry school. Called to take the gospel around the world.

Now, we're also very blessed, very blessed to... Have our grads serving all over America. America has needs as well, and many are called to be right here. But many are called to go. And probably the largest number we've had going into any one part of the world.

in recent years is is is the number of those called to go to the Muslim world with the gospel. In many ways, the most dangerous part of the world to minister if you take out North Korea. But in terms of a larger population group, one of the most dangerous parts of the world to go. And yet, we have an increasing number of our grads going to serve in the Muslim world. What's it like over there?

What are they experiencing? Why would they leave everything? and go and raise their kids in another part of the world. We're going to be talking about that with Neil and Lindsey Brewer. They are Neil's a grad from our ministry school.

They are both uniquely equipped with their own background in spiritual and natural education. They've been serving with a team in northern Iraq. Yeah, we actually have grads who lead the Mesopotamia house of prayer. Think of that. And amazingly, not long after our team started ministering there, ministering to the Kurdish people, suddenly, because of the horrific warfare in In Syria.

and the refugee crisis that suddenly There were hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding into Iraq, into northern Iraq. And there they were literally in in their back yard. many of them nominal Christians. Many of them Muslims. All of them.

needing the gospel.

So we're going to talk with Neil and Lindsay. We come back first, find out how God shaped their lives for this. How, okay, just Neil today. All right, just Neil. He'll speak for Lindsay as well.

Find out how God shaped them, called them over there, what life is like. there. I think you'd be blessed, stirred, encouraged, and challenged. But today's. Interview.

We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today. I want to talk about mission work, talk about living. in a foreign country in the Muslim world, what's it like? What's God doing? And why would a family uproot and go over to Northern Iraq?

My guest, Neil Brewer, one of our fire school of ministry grads. Hey Neil, welcome to the line of fire. Doctor Brown, it is so good to hear your voice and talk to you. Yeah, I I wish it could be face to face, but as you know, we are doing major office renovations, so we even though we're in the same area right now, it's it's by phone. How long are you back in the States for?

We are here to the end of August.

Okay, got it. And then you head back to northern Iraq. We do. Yes sir. All right, just to paint a picture then, how how long have you and Lindsay been married?

We've been married for f Oh man, I should know this, shouldn't I? We've been married for 12 years. 12 years. All right, you better get this next one right. How many kids?

We have four kids. All right, and what's their age range? Our oldest is ten, and then seven four and two. All right, nail those. Good job.

Good job. All right, so you really did uproot a whole young family to go over to Northern Iraq. Let's first get your own background, Neil. When did you come to the Lord and what brought you to Fire School of Ministry?

Well, my wife and I, we both were raised in a church, but we didn't fully surrender to Jesus until about nine years ago. And when we did, We told the Lord, whatever you want us to do, wherever you want us to go, we're completely yours. And from that point, he steered us the fire school in ministry in twenty eleven to twenty fourteen, And it was while we were at Fire School that the Lord began speaking to us about the Middle East. All right, and Lindsay has her own unique background that kind of ties in with that educationally upbringing. What's that?

She does.

So Lindsay went to grad school at a particular university that was a CIA recruiting ground.

So she was she was recruited by the CIA twice And she she turned them down once and got in her venees once. Yeah. Really? So what was her specialized training or background where the CIA was interested in her? Yeah, she she got her undergraduate degree in political science But it was in her when she was getting her master's degree, she was studying International Affairs and Economics.

She's incredibly athletic. And I think there was a combination of things that that the government's just all attractive in her. Um, but God had a different plan in mind. All right, so she has this secular education, which certainly works well for a missionary. You get the spiritually focused education fire school of ministry.

When did God begin to drop in your heart the Middle East? Yeah, it was I remember it vividly. It was during a chapel service. I had fire schooling ministry on a Tuesday morning. I was worshiping And the Lord showed me a vision of millions of people in the desert.

And the Lord took me up on a cliff, and I just saw all these people staring up at me. And the Lord told me, He said, I little ha I have little ones here.

So do not know me. But I know Zen and I need you to tell them about me. And so from that point, the Lord just really put on our heart this people of the desert. And over the next three years God fine tuned the vision until ultimately we ended up in Iraq. All right, well when you first went over to to visit You may have had certain preconceived notions.

You can know a certain amount about it. What was the same as you expected? What was different? Yeah, I think like the majority of people in the West. there's this perception of Iraq.

in the Middle East, that there's going to be someone on every street corner who wants to kidnap you or harm you. And this is was not the case. And I think this first couple of weeks that we were there, We had this sense of danger. Like we were in danger all the time, and it was. it was only by the grace of God that someone didn't jump out of a car and kidnap us, you know, but we we soon realized after about being being there for about a month that It's not like this on the ground here.

Of course, there's dangerous places. places in the Middle East. But by and large, you know, there's safe Places where people are seeking peace. They want to live in harmony and peace. And so it's just a regular city just like any other place in the world that we were in.

Interesting. All right, so. You go over there, you and your wife both feel called. The kids are young enough, you can kind of make this a new adventure for them. They don't know what's coming.

But now you're raising your family in another part of the world.

So Lindsay's not with us now to describe it, but what's it like from the perspective of a mom? with with young kids. Yeah, it It's very similar to here. You know, you you worry about. Are your children getting the best education that they can?

Are your children being nice when they play with the neighborhood kids? Are your children okay riding their bike? around the corner, even though you can't see them. There's the same sort of concerns that we would have in America we have there. The only difference is You know, the children that our kids are playing with speak Arabic.

They don't speak English. And the corner store The man at the corner store speaks Arabic and he's from Mosul, and we're building a relationship with him, and it's a great opportunity for the gospel. the parents of the children that our kids play with. they come to the house and they don't know Jesus. They've never heard the truth about Jesus.

So even raising our kids in the context of the Middle East, Is an opportunity for us to share the gospel and for us to be Jesus to folks who have never really heard the truth of who He is. Hmm. And it is amazing that people are still people and life is still life. in in different parts of the world. Uh how are your kids doing with Arabic?

They're doing great. Our oldest two, Layla and Addie, They're ten and seven. They're taking formal classes five days a week. And so they're they're working on their reading and their writing and They're doing fantastic. When we go back in September, Judah, he's four point five We're actually going to throw him in the deep end.

He's going to be going to school, like a a preschool type curriculum where he'll they'll speak Arabic and a little bit of English. But the kids are doing fantastic. Yeah, it is amazing. The younger they are, the quicker they learn the languages. And I remember studying Arabic.

in in college and grad school, but the first college class I had in Arabic were learning pronunciation. And a lot of it is just for I was learning Hebrew, but Hebrew doesn't preserve some of the sounds. you know, some of the more guttural sounds, it's not preserved in modern Hebrew. And we're learning, trying to say these things. And, you know, the professor's telling us, you know, when you're riding the subway or taking a shower, you know, just practice really loud to try to do it.

And, you know, after we're struggling for a few days, he said, just think of it. Two and three-year-old kids right now in Egypt are pronouncing these things perfectly.

So but that's amazing. Yeah, it is amazing though how the kids can learn pick things up.

Okay. The Muslim world. Obviously, it is not monolithic. It's going to be different in Afghanistan. versus Saudi Arabia.

versus Pakistan versus Indonesia. We understand that, but what you are encountering so far in the Muslim world, what percentage of the people that you're dealing with who are Muslims are fairly devout Muslims? You know, the men praying five times a day or participating in the feast of Ramadan. What percentage of the Muslims you're meeting are fairly devout? Yeah, it's a good question.

I think where we are. It's definitely unique. I would say twenty five percent of the Muslims are devout. Band. No, one of the things that we've seen is The folks who have lived underneath ISIS for the past three years, you would think they would be the most hardened.

to the gospel. and they would be the most devout Muslim. But the opposite has happened. It's as if the devil has overplayed his hand. Yeah.

And this this heavy form of Um Violent Islam is pushed people away. And so they're not devout. They're not praying five times a day. th they care more about the safety of their family than they do about you know, fasting Ramadan.

Now, do they associate ISIS with their religion? and therefore it's driving them away from Islam? Or do they think this is not really Islam? ISIS is not really Islam? Yeah, I think in the beginning They saw it at least the Folks in Moses now.

they would say in the beginning ISIS did represent Islam. But now you're hard pressed to find anyone who's going to say that.

Now a lot of the younger folks, thirty years and under, They're the ones who are so turned off. Bye. Um this devout Islam that they've seen. that they're just kind of swimming between agnosticism and lukewarm Islam. Yeah, got it.

From your viewpoint, again, you've only been... in in Iraq for a few years. You have limited interaction even within Iraq. You're in one particular location. You certainly are not an expert on Islam.

or the entire Muslim world.

So I'm couching everything here in my question. from your viewpoint, interacting with these Muslims. Is ISIS more a representation of real Islam? Or And therefore, if you're not really into that, you're lukewarm. Or is it a distortion of his love?

Just your own limited perspective and interaction. I want to get your take on that. We'll be right back. Also, want to talk about the travel ban. President Trump, Muslims getting saved.

Lot more. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm back with Neil Brewer, who is one of our fire missionaries serving in northern Iraq. If you want to find out about Fire School of Ministry, how you can be trained, equipped, and sent out, give us, well, just go to fire-school.org. All right, we've now been joined by Lindsay as well.

So we're going to put Lindsay on for a moment, Neil and his wife, Lindsay, and their four kids. Hey, Lindsay, we almost stumped him on how long he's been married. You're going to have to work on that a little bit. I know. I was standing here.

I was trying to tell them that it's actually almost fourteen years, Doctor Brown. Oh, I was holding. Only off by two years. That's not bad. All right.

It must be so good that it flew by. Yeah, probably so.

Well, hey, listen, he boasts about you all the time. Lindsay, did you have any trepidation? A mom can be more protective over the kids and carry that tenderness that only a mom can. Did you have any trepidation relocating to Northern Iraq with four little kids? Uh Yeah, the Early on when Neil and I Uh started really Just kind of following hard after Jesus, he always encouraged me to hear from the Lord.

With each move that we made, even when we moved from Lexington to Charlotte for school. And it was kind of the same with going to Iraq, just you know, the need for me to hear from the Lord. and to have that to stand on.

So that definitely helps. I think if there was any uh Kind of hesitation or worry that I had. It was. How my girls would deal with being in that kind of culture that can be uniquely difficult on a woman, especially as they come to age. You know, just being under the unique oppression that a woman can feel there.

So how has that turned out now? The girls are doing great. Layla played soccer this year, and she was one of the only girls on the team, and she did amazing. She had Some boys picked on her a little bit at first, but she stuck with it and she did great.

So there's just there's been a lot of grace, a whole lot of grace in the transition. And we we talk through things when they come up, feelings that we have. And Uh we spend a lot of time together uh in the house, so we have lots of time to talk through those kind of things. And what would you say from your perspective? are some of the most redeeming qualities about the people you've met there.

Every nation has strengths and weaknesses. America has strengths and weaknesses. What have you found to be some of the most redeeming qualities about the people that you're living with and meeting there in Iraq?

Okay. I think There are a couple that stand out. I I love that The women welcome you so willingly into their home, and they will drop everything. That they want to do, or that they have going on to welcome you in, to fix you a meal. to make you tea.

For for me to see that, just the hospitality that they have, it's it's a really beautiful quality. And then I also think just from spending time in the tents, the refugee tents, to see these moms who have lost absolutely everything to make a home and a pant for their children and to be available to their children and their husbands is just it's really humbling to see what they can do with one pot and one little stove burner, just how they can make a meal come together and make a tent feel like a home. And do you find that there is a stronger family emphasis that they may have than we often have in America being so scattered? and in so many different places at once. Uh I think family is is big there.

Um Um But then I also think that there is a lot of fatherlessness.

So you see oftentimes you see moms with the children and oftentimes The fathers are absent.

So You know, it's not unusual for a man to have multiple wives and one wife will be in a completely different city. and he'll leave his wife and his children to go to this other wife.

So, I mean, the the family unit is is closed as far as like the moms and the the children go. But I think it's extremely rare to find one with the father and the mother both present and on the same page and together. Very interesting. Very interesting. All right, Neil, let me go back to you the question I was asking right before the break.

Again, I know you're not an expert on Islam. I know that you have limited experience in the Middle East and that you haven't been there for 30 or 40 years and lived in many different Muslim nations. But interacting with Muslims, your own study, reflection, from what you can tell. Does ISIS come closer to legitimate Islam. Or is ISIS a horrific distortion of legitimate Islam?

Yeah. You couched your question, so I'm going to couch my response.

Okay. The th the couch response is there is no genuine expression of Islam. There's no consistency in the Quran, there's no consistency in the Hadith. And there can't be because there's it's not divinely inspired. You know, it is not in the same way that Scripture is inspired by God.

So given that, that there isn't going to be a consistent authentic expression of Islam. That's why you see so many different sects.

so many different divisions.

So on one the blanket answer would be no. ISIS does not represents True Islam. But then I would very quickly say, because there is no true Islam, There is no authentic expression of Islam. I think what ISIS does is They walked out. the progression of Islam to its logical conclusion If a man sinful and fallen and unregenerated allows it to.

You see this played out in Muhammad's life. He begins. a a mission of peace. modeling itself after Christianity and Judaism. But then as time goes on, he leans on the sword more.

He begins to conquer more.

So I think that's what you see with ISIS. Given man's opportunity Time. indulge his flesh, He will end up. looking like ices. But there are so many people that we see Who are they are so they despise ISIS and what they've done to their religion.

and to the the the region of the Middle East. Um But to to answer your question, no, I I don't think there's an authentic expression of Islam. And I believe that ISIS would not Yeah. Output transcript. you know, the the millions of Muslims around the world.

Got it. And of course, there's constant debate about that: which is true Islam? Is there a true Islam? Does it have different expressions over the years? But certainly, ISIS is taking certain truths found within Islam or certain values found within Islam, and then, as fallen human beings, taking them to a logical extreme.

The good news is, Jesus. is moving in the Muslim world. We come back. I want to hear some testimonies about Jesus appearing in the refugee camps and dreams to Muslims about how legitimate these conversions are from Neil and Lindsay Brewers serving in northern Iraq. I also want to talk about our president, President Trump, and the travel ban from certain countries.

travel restrictions, how that's playing out. As well as Neil's views on the interfaith dialogue that Dr. White had with a conservative Muslim earlier this year. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I am speaking with Neil and Lindsey Brewer serving. As fire missionaries in northern Iraq, serving the people there in humanitarian ways, bringing the gospel to them. Massive refugee camps now, literally in their backyard, because of the crisis in Syria. Many refugees fleeing there, some nominal Christian, some Muslim, all of them hearing the gospel as the opportunity is presented. Neil and Lindsay, if you had to share some stories of people you've met.

Who have had genuine encounters with Jesus, Jesus appearing to Muslims in their dreams. You know, we always hear about this, but you're there. What's happening is, is this really happening? And can you give me some examples? Yeah, Lindsay jumped off the line, but I can answer for her if that's okay.

Okay, great. Sure thing. It was a uh A woman that Lindsay met in the refugee camp, one of the camps that we regularly visit. And this woman asked Lindsay if she was a doctor. Lindsay said no.

But tell me what's wrong. I'm a follower of Jesus. I can pray for you and I believe he'll heal you. And the women the woman looked at Lynn's and she said, Jesus, I know him and I love him. And so Lindsay said, please tell me, tell me more.

And so the woman invited Lindsay into her tent. and the woman woman began to tell Lindsay the story that she was burned very badly. Her legs were burned.

some years ago. And many other women were I don't know if it was an explosion or how far it was, but many women were in the hospital with burns as well. And so one by one the wom women began to die. And so this woman knows that she's next.

So she drifts off to Yeah. and she sees this man approaching her in in a vision. and this man is dressed in white, he's got radiant light coming out from him. And she just instinctively knows that it's Jesus.

So Jesus walks up to her, And he said, come follow me. And the woman says, I can't I can't walk my legs are burned.

So as Jesus turns The woman says, the hem of his garment rubbed up against my leg and I could stand up. Don't She follows Jesus and Jesus leads her down to a river. and Jesus begins to wash her legs in the water. She wakes up from the dream. She's completely healed.

She leaves the hospital. And so she tells Lindsay, she says, How can I ever thank Jesus? And then she says, and where can I get some of this water? Yeah. So Lindsay Lindsay tells her, you know, I I have this this living water inside of me.

It's Jesus. Let me tell you about him.

So Lindsay shares the gospel with them. She prays to receive Jesus right then and there. While she's praying, The problem that she had in her liver is healed. Her ear, what she couldn't hear out of pops open and she can hear.

Now She's attending our house church meeting. She's bringing her children with her. She brought her sister to one of the home gatherings. It's just a beautiful story of Jesus revealing himself. but then what in a way, allowing us to partner with him in something that he's doing.

And and now she's she's walking with Jesus. Incredible. First-hand testimony. And you're saying she was so badly burned, the others who were also burned had died. And she realized she was next.

She did. And she showed Lindsay the scars on her legs. She's like, Look, I'm not making this up. These are the scars. Yeah.

Incredible. Incredible. I I don't doubt a syllable of that. We know so many. Like stories, although that is one of the coolest that I've heard, I have to say.

And so much need in the refugee camps. It's a human tragedy.

So much displacement, so much loss of life, so much suffering. And yet, God is using that. to reach people with The good news.

Okay, a lot more to come with my guest, Neil Brewer, together with his wife, Lindsay, serving in northern Iraq, part of a team we have there of fire missionaries serving the people, bringing the gospel. To find out about our mission's work, go to Fire- International. Or We'll be right back. Angel World. Give us strength to always do what's right.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

My guest right now, Neil Brewer, Brad of Fire School of Ministry. To find out about our school, go to fire-school.org. Serving now with a team in northern Iraq. It's pretty wild to be part of something like the Mesopotamia House of Prayer, you know. Small groups there in northern Iraq ministering to the Kurds and others.

But with the refugee crisis, Neil, suddenly there is this massive. gospel audience, people in need with nowhere to go. in your backyard, what are the living conditions for these refugees? It varies. Depending on how long the camp has been there.

So, for the camps that have been there for three years, Since the beginning of ISIS, There's definitely things are more established. Um People have set up little corner stores within the campus, bread shops. There's places where you can buy vegetables. There's more order. The newer camps where folks are just now leaving Mosul and coming into, these are definitely more bare bones.

There's nothing there except for the tent that you live in. And then whatever the UN is able to give you in terms of A blanket, a mat to sleep on. And then of course, food, water, things like that. And and uh You Uh you're actively ministering, the team is actively ministering in these different camps. Do you have an idea of the numbers of people involved?

In terms of how many refugees there are? We've heard upwards of eight hundred thousand. And that's within a two-hour drive of our house. Incredible. Now, many of these people are nominal Christians.

Are they open to the whole gospel message?

Now you you said nominal Christian? Yeah. Which nominal Christian what do you mean? as well as as Muslims. Yeah.

Christian camps. I can think of one in particular. But we spend ninety nine percent of our time in the Muslim camps.

So there won't be Christians living within the Muslim camps. Got it. Until the Yeah. Right. And most of the Muslims you're saying are not devout.

Maybe 75% of them are not devout. And some of them less devout because of the oppression of ISIS. If that's Islam, they want nothing to do with it, correct? Right, right, yeah. All right.

from the perspective of where you live now. What President Trump has done. in terms of the travel ban, six countries that were previously Under a list compiled by the Obama administration, that if refugees want to come from those countries, as the Supreme Court ruled, that they need to have a very specific connection, a very specific family or business connection that would bring them over for fear of terrorists infiltrating, the goal being to do better vetting. You put out a video. not long after that, from overseas.

And you're a videographer as well. We'll talk about that in a moment. But you wanted to get a message out about the gospel. You wanted to send a message to Americans about befriending Muslims, reaching out to them. Does...

a move like this from our President, obviously concerned about national security. Does this have a negative impact for you on the mission field? Is it the kind of thing you can explain and say, hey, we don't want ISIS coming in our country? I'm sure you can understand that. How is this playing out?

Yes, I think initially when the the ban was first announced, We had people asking us, how could America do this to us? We thought America was our friend. How could America abandon us like this? And so we had to we had to Tell them that this was a political decision made by one man. It doesn't represent the church in America, it definitely doesn't represent.

us as a team and as your friend.

So we tried to distance ourselves from it as much as we could. All right, so how did they hear about it? It it Well, everyone there has cell phones and everyone has access to the Internet, even if they're living in a refugee camp, which is amazing. Um But so it it's spread like wildfire once we decision with them now.

So they took it as the President of the United States saying, we don't care that you're in need, we don't care that you're refugees, you're not coming in our country because we don't want your kind here. Is that basically how they took it? Right. That's exactly how they pick it. Got it.

Got it. And obviously, that's not the overall intent. And everyone has to deal with what they're dealing with. The government has to deal with security, and the church has to deal with outreach. And how do we mix compassion with security and all these issues?

Did it ultimately push back the gospel work for you? Or are you able to overcome that? No, it didn't push back the gospel words. If anything, it just provided a different lane for us to speak in. you know, we we definitely would try to turn the conversation back around to Jesus.

And so we distance ourselves from the politics And say this doesn't represent the church, and this is why. Let me tell you what the church is, let me tell you what the kingdom of God truly is. and how that's different. from the Kingdom of America. Yeah, and ultimately when you're talking especially with refugees who very much Welcome fellowship and interaction.

And who are displaced and hurting people, when they see you care about them, I think that's the loudest message of all. Right, right. They can hear what we say with our mouth, but if they're not seeing a living testimony, it's just going to be words to them. but when they see that our love for them is genuine, And it's Supernatural even. you know, that's when they're impacted.

And did they ask you why you're here with your family? Why did you move over from America to live here? All the time. All the time. We show 'em show 'em pictures on my phone, you know, of my children if they're not with me.

And they'll say, why did you come here? We're trying to leave. We're trying to come to America. Why'd you come here? And then at the perfect opportunity, say, well, God pulled me.

God loves Iraq. Incredible. All right. I know that you listen to interfaith dialogue, the discussion I had with Dr. James White about his interfaith dialogue with a conservative Muslim Imam, whom critics call a jihadi imam, Yassir Qadi.

And of course, James would say he is a committed conservative Muslim, but not a jihadist. Many are debating those issues even as we speak now. But Neil, you listened to the interview I had with Dr. White, and two things you know uniquely living in Iraq. You know how ugly, how murderous, how horrific radical Islam is.

You also know how the great majority of Muslims do not share those sentiments. From your perspective, as a missionary in the Muslim world. Was it a wise thing? for James to do to have civil discussion, perhaps to to bring walls down and maybe to undemonize certain people. And therefore, Christians and Muslims talk face to face?

Or is this just being a useful idiot for Islam? And now you basically desensitize people to the dangers of radical Islam? What was your take? Right. I love that James White did this.

I think it was a beautiful example of who we are supposed to be. Of course, we're supposed to be wise But we come with love. It's a demonstration of the kingdom of God that comes in humility and love. Oh and If I'm debating and arguing, it's not going to sound like love to the person that I'm arguing with. Um Are you still there, Dr.

Maum? Yeah, go ahead.

Okay. I this is what we do all the time. We sit down with people. who are on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of belief and faith. And we have a choice.

I I'm either going to argue with you about who Muhammad is and what the Quran is and how how evil and vile it is and the expression of Islam and what it's done to the Middle East. Or we can talk about Jesus. And we can talk about the kingdom of God, and we can talk about. what that looks like. And I can demonstrate for that for you even with how I interact with you.

as a human being. My tone of voice. the way that I honor and I respect you as a as an individual created in God's image. The last thing we want to do is tear somebody down, what, so we can prove a theological point? That's not th going to convince somebody of anything.

At best, it may convince their mind but it's not going to lead to a genuine conversion at the heart. And so I was I I applauded James White for doing that.

Now, Neil, have you yourself interacted with devout Muslims? You said maybe 75% are not devout. The men are not praying five times a day. And many of the younger people are even more alienated from Islam because of ISIS as you live there in northern Iraq. Have you interacted, though, with very conservative Muslims as well?

I've sat down in the middle of Mosul in in individuals' homes and had lunch with Imam. do I know were leading prayers for Isis in the mock. I sat down with the young men who lived their entire time through ISIS, and are now studying to be EMOM. And I can tell you there's the best fruit that we've ever seen is when we sit down And we discussed Jesus. I don't know.

We d we don't want to talk about Quran the Quran. We don't want to talk about Muhammad. Let's talk about Jesus. Let's talk about the truth. Because they've never heard of these things.

So for us, when we cross the boundary into debate and argument, it's never going to end up good. But when we can we can introduce something to them that they've never heard before. There's something inside of him that longs. But it's good. And when we can give it to them, That's when they're entered into the game.

All right, friends, that is a perspective of a missionary living. In the Muslim world, we'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

All right, I've got just a few minutes left with... My friend, ministry colleague, Grad from our ministry school, Neil Brewer, together with his wife Lindsay and four kids serving in Iraq. And by the way, you might differ on the interfaith dialogue approach and whether it's good or not or like it or not. I have no issue with that. My issue is the almost hysterical attacks that have come and the useful idiot charges and the inability to see the whole purpose of this being to bring walls down so the gospel can be shared.

Neil, what misconceptions do you think many Americans may have about the Muslim world? I think the number one misconception is that all Muslims Uh huh. Christians? and then in turn hate Jesus. This is a gross misconception.

What's what's the reality from your experience? The reality is that for years. Centuries even. Muslims and Christians have coexisted even in Mosul. Up until twenty years ago, fifteen years ago, most Christian.

Jews, Yazidis, Muslims, they live next to each other in harmony.

So that's a gross misconception. We have so many people When they meet us, they find out that we're Christians. They go out of their way to honor and respect not only us as individuals, but our faith. because they know that in the West, they are perceived as Christian haters. Hmm.

And as far as Jesus, obviously they don't know who he is, and of course they oppose the idea of him being the Son of God, but Jesus is an important figure to them. I've I've had so many folks They point to their heart and they say, Jesus lives in my heart. I love Jesus.

Now of course we would we would stop them and say, Well, Jesus doesn't live in your heart, but I appreciate what you're saying. Like they honor Jesus, they respect Jesus, they hold him up. As a revered man of their religion, Um so this idea that they they hate and despise Arcing is It's false.

Now, of course, there is the more militant Islam. We understand that we're not denying the terrorist threat. We're not denying the evil of it. We're not denying how it traces itself back to Muhammad and the Quran. We understand that we've talked about that earlier.

But it's kind of the broad-brushed viewpoint. And the thing that frustrates me, Neil, is that. The i the assumption is that all Muslims will lie. And tell you anything to deceive you. And they'll point to the practice of taqiyyah, etc.

And there are circumstances where a Muslim will lie, and they'll do it for. The religious purposes. But the idea that your average Muslim that you're talking to is always going to lie, I mean, it's a bit of a frustrating situation. And here, you ask someone to respond honestly, they do, and you say, Well, I can't believe you. You live with the people, you get to see them first hand.

What would you say about that? Yes, that again, it's a gross misconception. And we're talking about millions and millions of people that are being generalized and characterized with these statements. And it's just That's just dangerous ground to tread on. We see.

The folks that we interact with in these refugee camps and in Mosul, they are victims of Islam. In the same way that the folks who have got in terrorist attacks are victims of Islam. They have been raised up under an ideology that is leading them away from God. but all the while preaching to them that they are pleasing God by doing these things. They've leaked.

Yeah. that again, the greatest victims of radical Islam are fellow Muslims. That's the greatest number of casualties and deaths and attacks. Neo, you have an interesting name for your ministry you found at your videography work, which is Iron Kite. Why did you come up with that name?

What the The word spoke. To me while I was in Bible school about starting a film company to help my families through the the financially difficult years of being in Bible school. And so my response to the Lord was: okay, I'll do this, but only if you breathe on it. I don't want to do anything that you're not going to breathe on. And I had this image in my mind of a kite made of iron.

Unless God breathes on it, it's completely useless. It's not going anywhere. But if God breathes on it, then it it becomes supernatural in it and it soars. And I look at What our family is doing now, God is you're not breathing on everything that we're doing. We don't want to do it.

And so you're seeing you're seeing he is breathing on it, living proof. If folks want to find out about Iron Kite, look at some of the work you're doing, get behind you as a family, what's the best way to do that? They can go to irontight international dot com. All right, Iron Kite, spelled like it sounds, ironkiteinternational.com. And Neil, if if someone feels a calling on their lives wants to be trained for ministry work in the States or overseas, what would you tell them about fire school?

Oh, Fire School of Ministry is responsible for just about everything that we are doing now.

Now, I everyone I talk to even now who has an inkling of a desire to go to Bible school. I'm pointing them to fire school. It was instrumental. and equipping me and Lindsay in in what we're doing now.

Well, you guys are wonderful fruit. Your life is shining brightly for the Lord, and we know that God's going to use your family in amazing ways to reach the Muslim people of Iraq and beyond. Hate, grace and favor to you and to everything you do at Iron Kite. God bless you. Thank you so much, Dr.

Brown. Good talking to you. All right. Friends, I hope you're as blessed by that interview as I was stirred, encouraged. And I asked him at the end about Iron Kite, not just to give a plug, ironkiteinternational.com, not just to give a plug and to encourage you to go there and watch some of the videos and consider prayerfully supporting their work.

But also to say, hey, if God could make that iron kite fly. If God could call this family of four, husband, a Bible school, graduate, wife, master's degree. Graduate If God could call this family overseas, mom, dad, four kids, and use them to reach Muslims in Iraq, he can fulfill his calling on your life. If he can make this iron kite fly, he can make your iron kite fly.

So if you know there's a calling, lean into it, pray, and then do what you know how to do today. What about next year? How am I just do what you know how to do today? Tomorrow is going to take care of itself. And as Jesus said, there's enough trouble waiting there for tomorrow.

Do what you know how to do today. Walk in obedience today. Be fruitful today. Serve God today. Obey His prompting today.

And then tomorrow, you'll be where you're supposed to be. If you obey the GPS, the divine GPS today, tomorrow you'll be on track for the next day.

So let me encourage you if you're called to be trained. In a hands-on, intensive way, consider our ministry school. It is for the serious, it is for those called to leadership, is it intense, focused. Environment So go to fire-school.org to find out more and pray for our team. We've got a good-sized team in northern Iraq serving, giving themselves.

We have others serving in other parts of the Muslim world. We can't share where they are for security reasons. One of our grads was killed years back by Muslim terrorists on the mission field. And we have only seen an upsurge of grads going to the mission field since that has happened. That's the kind of dedication that we have as followers of Jesus.

Hey, friends, we're here to equip you and to strengthen you. And our ministry this month is just doing something special. We hope this will be a blessing to you. But I've got numerous DVD series. Lengthy teaching series, targeted single messages, debates, a whole Video DVD library.

Everything is 30% off from our DVD library this month. Go to askdrbrown.org to find out more. May the blessing of the Lord be upon you.