Diving Into the World of Judaism

Well, you know what day it is. You know what time it is? Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, I know it's Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, and we are going to have a lot of thoroughly Jewish content today, but I just want to alert you to a new video that just went live a couple of hours ago. It is the safest video. on YouTube. Yes, it is. That's actually the title of my newest video, The Safest Video.

video on YouTube. You can watch it. Just go to my Line of Fire website, thelineofire.org, and you'll see it right there on the home page or on our Ask Dr. Brown YouTube channel. The safest video on YouTube, the one video, less than a minute long, where no one will get offended.

No triggers, nothing. It's safe. It's a total safe space. in the midst of a hostile intranet. Right there for you.

on YouTube. Yes, I'm saying that with a bit of a smile. And a very serious article that is getting a lot of attention very quickly: yes, gay activists are. After your children. What am I talking about?

Why did I write it? Read the article and you will see. All right, welcome to the broadcast 866-34Truth is number to call. If you have a Jewish-related question for me of any kind. If you have a Hebrew related question, a question about faith in Yeshua as the Messiah, a question about Israel today, even Islamic related questions we feel sometimes on Thurly Jewish Thursdays, phone lines are open 866-3487 884.

Halfway through this first hour, I plan to have a friendly debate with an Orthodox Jewish rabbi. He shot me a note earlier today and said, Hey, how about coming on the air today and let's chat? And I said, Well, fine. He said, Well. Let's agree on a subject.

So I said, okay, let's focus on Isaiah 53.

So since this is a key text, we all agree it's a key text. Just speaking last week with an older Jewish man. And he's he, I believe, as he reads the text on his own, it comes to the same conclusion or sees it the same as men. Boy, it really looks like it's talking about Jesus, Yeshua.

So we'll do that. And what I also want to do today. is give you some Insight into how Jewish tradition works. How Jewish tradition works. I'm going to give you some examples of that.

But first, Let me start with a little. Hebrew truth for you. One of the Hebrew words for worship, the root, literally means to bow down before, to prostrate oneself before. And just like you'll see a Muslim man praying and he's on his knees and then he gets on his face. to to prostrate yourself before someone.

That is still done in certain parts of the world, in reverence, respect.

So it could be before an earthly ruler, you know, a king, you bow down before in that way, or it could be before the Lord, and ultimately, it simply means to worship. and the first time the verb is used. is in Genesis the 22nd chapter. And in Genesis chapter 22, we have the account of God commanding Abraham to offer Isaac on Mount Moriah. And of course, that was just a test.

The beginning of the chapter tells us God tested him, but Abraham didn't know it was a test. Abraham thought. This was the real deal. And somehow he knew. I mean, he says, we're going to go.

And do what? What does he tell his attendants? We're going to go worship. And then we're going to come back.

Somehow He has this assurance that we We're going to come back. And yet he knows he's been told to sacrifice a son. on the mountain. It's the first time the word worship is used. It's more than just singing and praising and shouting and jumping and clapping.

It is the giving of one's whole life in obedience to God. That is a fundamental aspect. of worship. We'll be right back. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame.

Say It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Minhashot, Vehashniot, Vehakolot, Vauzniot, Minakocha Valhamigdal. Uminaru Akhleti dove she aliado. Thanks, friends, for joining us on Thursday, Jewish Thursday, 866-355. for truth. I remember years back talking with a rabbi.

about certain Jewish beliefs and traditions. And I said to him, Yeah, but but this tradition That's like a thousand years after the New Testament or 1,500 years after the New Testament. Or this holy book in Judaism is 1,1200 years after the New Testament. Why should I believe something that comes so much later? I mean, you'd think that the earlier the source the more authoritative, right?

In other words, When you play the telephone game and and you you you sit in a circle, maybe you've got fifteen family members and friends over and you come up with a silly little sentence. You know, uh You know, the the prophet Elijah flew over the moon in a in a rocket fueled broomstick, you know, some ridiculous statement like that. And then it gets repeated all around the room. By the time it gets to the end, it's completely different. The further back you go, the more authoritative.

Jewish tradition believes that every generation has been on a lower spiritual plane than the previous generation, going back to Moses. As it's expressed in the Talmud, if the earlier generation was like angels, then we're like men. If the earlier generation was like men, then we're like donkeys. And the concept being that in order to have right understanding, we need to sit on the shoulders. Of the elders, the luminaries, the rabbis, the great thinkers who went before us.

Just trying to give you an insight. into Jewish thought. But because Judaism believes that there is a living tradition not just being passed down, but also being developed. In each generation, something can be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years later, but if it has become part of the practice of the Jewish community, if it has become something accepted by the Jewish community, then it has great authority as well. In other words, if you ask a traditional Jew, well, why do you do that?

It's not written in the Bible. Why do you do that? Traditional Jew might reply, Well, we have it by way of tradition. And you might say, well, we don't care about tradition, we care about what's written. And as one rabbi said to me, Tradition for us is like another book of the Bible.

In other words, it plays its own role here.

So, again, just trying to give you an understanding. I differ. Yes, I differ with the authority of these traditions, of course. But I want you to understand how Judaism works and think.

Some of you. raised Roman Catholic. I'm not Roman Catholic, I wasn't raised Roman Catholic, so I'm relating to this from the outside. But some of you raised Roman Catholic, you related to it from the inside. and some of you were very serious Roman Catholics.

Maybe a friend of yours gets born again. and begins to say to you, well, why do you do that? Why do you have Sunday Mass the way you do? And why do you practice this? Why do you fast on this day?

Or why do you pray this prayer? It say what's church tradition. And your friend might say to you, but show me that in the Bible. And Catholic would say, well, we have the Bible and we have church tradition. In other words, they look at them as both and.

They would say that church tradition is also Blessed by God or anointed by God. Not all of it, but much of it. They would say church tradition is ultimately in harmony with Scripture. Let me give you a bit more extreme example. Maybe you came out of being a Jehovah's Witness.

Well, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their organization has been raised up by God to give the true interpretation of the Bible. This is by revelation, not by tradition being passed on through the generations, but by revelation. And you'd say, yeah, but your books, I mean, they're written in the 1900s. Yeah, but we received the revelation then, and that's how we interpret the Bible accurately. We're going back to the original meaning.

Well, Judaism is not exactly like either of those. But Judaism does believe in the authority. of the traditions.

So Again, just to be educational and helpful for you on this Thursday Jewish Thursday. Uh Sometimes a traditional Jew in a debate with me would say something like: Look, the Messiah is important for us in Judaism. But we can have Judaism without the Messiah. We can love God and keep the commandments. Without the Messiah, we can live a life of obedience to God.

The Messiah is important to us, but we can have Judaism. We can obey God without... The Messiah, every day we get up in the morning and seek to please God and keep his commandments. Whereas you could not have your Christianity without Christ. You could not have your Messianic Judaism without the Messiah.

And I'd reply: well, I don't see that it's negative. A husband can't have a marriage without a wife. A wife can't have a marriage without a husband. Right? You you need the two to have a marriage.

However, you can't have traditional Judaism without tradition. You can't have rabbinic Judaism without The rabbis, I'll gladly say we need the Messiah. We cannot have our faith without the Messiah because he's the Redeemer sent and appointed by God. But you cannot have traditional Judaism. without the traditions.

And for a traditional Jew, if you say, well, why do you do this and this and this and this and this, they say, well, we have it by tradition. You say, well, your traditions go contrary to the word. They say, no, it's all in harmony. You just have to understand it rightly.

So for example Here is a proof text that would be used. Yes, wrongly used. I have no question it's wrongly used. But this is a proof text that's used by traditional Jews. Let's go to Deuteronomy chapter 17.

And we've had this conversation.

Some of you have listened to conversations I've had with traditional Jews on the show. And we'll be talking to each other. And I'm always trying to break things down and help you that are not traditional, don't have that background, understand what we're talking about. There are plenty of things where I'm listening to two experts talk and I have no idea what they're talking about because it's outside of my field of learning.

So I'm always sensitive to that. You're listening, having a conversation with a traditional Jew and they're using certain words, phrases, and concepts, and you might be saying, okay, you're losing me here a little.

So I'll ask the question.

Okay, when you light the Sabbath candles. On Friday night, when the wife, the mother, will light the Sabbath candles on Friday night. uh right before sunset. And she'll say that you commanded us to light the candles. My question is where in Scripture did God command that?

And the answer would be: We're commanded to listen to what the rabbis tell us. And if the rabbis tell us that we're to light the candles, then that's as good as God telling us.

So here's the text that's used. Deuteronomy 17.8. If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, literally between blood and blood. One kind of legal right in another. or one kind of assault in another, any case within your towns that is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place that the Lord your God will choose.

and you shall come to the Levitical priests, and to the judge who was in office in those days, and you shall consult them. and they shall declare to you the decision. then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose, and you shall be careful and according to all that they direct you, according to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the verdict they declared to you, either to the right hand, Or to the left. The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest, who stands to minister there before the Lord your God or the judge, that man shall die.

So you shall purge the evil from Israel, and all the people shall hear and fear, and not act presumptuously again. And this is clearly talking about having kind of a Supreme Court. With the senior judge leader of the nation presiding, with the Levitical priests as the other judges there. And when you have a difficult case like trying to decide a homicide issue or something else, then you go there. And then whatever the verdict is, you have to accept it.

Just like the Supreme Court in America, we may like some of their verdicts and dislike others, but we have to abide by it. It's the law of the land. That's what's being said there. But that's not how it ends up getting interpreted in traditional Judaism. Traditional Judaism ultimately says that These national leaders became the sages, the rabbis.

And whatever they say. If this is the time you get up, if these are the prayers you pray. If these are the clothes you can wear or can't wear, if these are the customs you keep, don't keep. And on and on and on down to minute detail. Then if that's what they command, You have to do it.

And it says don't deviate to the left or the right. That's even taken to mean, even if they tell you that left is right and right is left, you have to obey it. That's how far it goes. And yes, it is a gross misinterpretation of the text. We'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thank you for joining us on Thurly Jewish Thursday, 866-365. 3487. Eight eight four is the number to call. Just a few more minutes to give you an understanding here. Here is a well-known ancient Jewish comment on Deuteronomy 17, 11.

You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you in the ruling handed down to you. You must not deviate from the verdict that they announced to you, either to the right or to the left.

So basically, like the ancient Supreme Court that would be functioning in Israel for issues that would be too difficult to settle on a local level. then bring it there.

So Here is the text. It's called Sefrei, and it's quoted by Rashi, who is the foremost Jewish commentator, lived from 1040 to 1105. Here's how it is explained in Sefrei, which basically Rashi follows here. Even if he This is on the words, don't depart to the right or to the left, whatever they tell you, right? Even if he, the judge.

tells you about what appears to you to be right that it is left. or about what appears to you to be laugh, That it is right You have to obey him. How much more is this so if actually he tells you about what is evidently right that it is right and about what is left that it is left?

Now, obviously, this is a midrashic, a homiletical. Explanation. is not what the text says. text saying don't depart to the left or to the right.

Okay, if they give you a verdict, if they give you the ruling, you have to abide. by that. That's the national court. You have to abide by that. But the idea that whichever way they tell you to go is the way you have to go.

Now whichever direction they say is right, you have to follow. You can see can be very dangerous. You say, well, would people just mindlessly follow leaders?

Well many would. Many do it in the church, many do it in the Muslim world, many do it in the Jewish world. Many do it in the atheistic world. You look up to somebody, they have some type of authority, some type of charisma.

Some type of backing. And what they say, you follow. You have enough leaders like that together, you can get masses to follow. And it's not just in Judaism. But here's what you need to understand.

There is a famous account in the Talmud I've referred to it many times, and it is very well known. because of the conclusion to the story. There was a leading rabbi of that day, so you're talking second century Eleazar ben Hercomas. And there was a dispute about an oven called the Achnai oven. Achnai having to do with snake.

One thing being, you know, the arguments just snaked around. There are other explanations of the name. In any case, there is a dispute whether the oven was clean or unclean. because of some technical details surrounding it.

So the different rabbis were discussing it. And these things are obviously important. If you believe things are clean or unclean, or something is pleasing to God or not pleasing, or something is acceptable or not acceptable. You want to be scrupulous. I respect that and understand that.

So. They're having a debate. And the rabbi Hyrcanus is the Elias Ibn Hyrcanus is Answering all of the Arguments Refuting their position of the other rabbis. But They don't listen to him.

So he now calls calls for Divine backing. If if the halakha, if the legal ruling is a caught according to me, Then let this carob tree be uprooted. And according to the story, it happened. They said, We don't. we don't accept the testimony of a carob tree.

Well, if If the Holocaust a legal ruling is in accordance with me. Then let the waters that are flowing outside be stopped or go in the other direction.

So, I mean, that happened. Oh, we don't accept that.

Well, then then let the walls of this house of study Collapse and they start to collapse, and one rabbi rebukes them.

So, basically, in deference to both rabbis, they kind of stay like. Slant it. Then But they're still not listening with all this miraculous confirmation. Eliezer Ben Hakanis wants divine backing and The heavenly voice the bot Cole. speaks.

Now it's not God speaking directly from heaven. It's literally daughter of a voice in Hebrew. But it is the heavenly voice. It is God's voice in a sense just... you know one level dial down.

And God then says Why are you arguing with him? The halakha legal ruling is always In accordance. With him. At which point, one of the rabbis jumps up and says, Loba Shemaim he, according from Deuteronomy 30, it's not in heaven. In other words, the Torah is no longer in heaven.

It's now been given to you. You don't have to go up to heaven to get it. You have it. Just do it. That's what the text is saying.

It's not saying God can't speak. God continued to speak through prophets through the centuries. He said he would. And when his people would go astray, when his people would misinterpret his word, when his people would abuse his word, he would speak from heaven and rebuke them through his prophets. Or a lot of you call on fire from heaven.

to rebuke the false prophets. Of course, that's not what not in heaven means. But that's how it's interpreted. And and then Exodus 23 verse 2. The second half of that verse, which is saying, don't follow the majority to pervert evil or to...

to pervert justice excuse me to pervert justice or to to push someone off the path Go follow the majority to do wrong, to pervert justice. That then gets quoted, but sliced in half in an impossible reading of the Hebrew. And again, it's midrashic, it's homiletical, but it becomes an authoritative statement. Follow the majority. Follow the majority.

And even though Rabbi Eleazar had the right arguments. Even though he had divine backing with signs, wonders, and the voice of God. because he had the minority view He was overruled. And Moses Maimonides, who lived 1135 to 1204, goes as far as saying that if you had a thousand prophets all the caliber of say Elijah or Joshua And they all agreed, you know, this is what the law is, this is the right interpretation. And you had a thousand and one sages.

And they said, No, it's this. then you follow the majority. In other words, it is simple pragmatism. This is how the decisions are made. I understand the logic behind it.

I understand that, say, if you have nine members of the Supreme Court. and four of them are absolutely brilliant and five are not nearly as brilliant. And four of them uh receive prophetic words directly from God. And they all say this is what God is saying, and they demolish the arguments. If the other five vote for a certain thing, That's the way it ends up.

But that that's certainly not the way God operates. That's certainly not the way truth comes forward.

So if you're listening and you're a traditional Jew, do you realize you've shut out the possibility of God speaking to you Unless the majority of rabbis agree on it. A little scary, I would say, wouldn't you? We'll be right back. Change the world. Change the world.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us today on the line of fire. This is Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. A couple hours before the show today, I received a note from Rabbi Asher Meza, with whom I've dialogued on the air a couple of times. And he said, hey, why doesn't he come on today, discuss a topic? I said, well, let's see if we can find a place to do it.

We obviously have certain things in common and other things not in common. Rabbi Meza once believed many of the things I do and became an Orthodox rabbi and has some views that are accepted within the Orthodox community, others that are not. I said, well, tell you what, let's focus on Isaiah 53 and let's have a conversation back and forth about it.

So we're going to do that for a little while on this thirdly, Jewish Thursday. Rabbi Meza, welcome back to the line of fire. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Brown.

Thank you for having me. Sure thing. All right, so why don't you take up to two minutes just to give your viewpoint on who the prophet's speaking of in Isaiah 53?

Okay, well you start off by saying that we have A lot in common, and you really don't know how much we actually do have in common in this area.

So like you so graciously said, that we agreed to Speak on this segment of the prophets that I consider not only essential for every Jew to understand properly. And as in this scenario, every other person who tries to justify what they believe with it as well. Right. The segment I'm referring to is the song of the suffering servant. And, friends, the reason.

I think Isaiah 53 is so essential. to understand is because as I'm sure doctor Brown would agree, it deals with redemption. And um Let me start out by saying Isaiah fifty-three is not About the people of Israel, as you may have heard other counter-missionaries teach. And this is where I think. Dr.

Brown and I agree. But rather The song should be understood as the song of the martyrs, as the individuals. Or the individual, it's speaking about who's about to be martyred.

Now, it is Israel speaking. in Isaiah fifty three, but it's not about Israel. And this, if you think about it, is the only way that at least I think the Sukhya correlates with what appears in Torah. In Torah. There is a formula for exile and redemption.

And actually, this is why we have the Books of Prophets. to begin with, right, to see that formula in action. In other words, In Torah, the formula is disobedience equals prophetic intervention. And if the words of that or those profits are not heeded, which is Uh Almost, those words are almost never heated because those prophets are usually tortured and murdered. This would then equal exile.

which if you think about it, at least from a Christian perspective, would not exclude Yeshua.

However, it would completely, I think completely remove all the x Other exclusivity built around Yeshua. All right, well let's just stop there and Look at this one thing then. You and I both say. that it cannot refer to the nation as a whole, correct? Correct.

Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation as a whole. And my understanding of why it cannot is because the subject of Isaiah 53. Is not suffering for his own sins, but for the sins of his people, he is righteous. They are guilty. Whereas when the Jewish people have been in exile as a nation, We've been in exile because of our sins.

And the prophetic witness is overwhelming to that effect throughout scripture. And even right in Isaiah 40 through 53, there are many references to our sins as a nation.

So we agree on that point. It cannot refer to Isaiah 53 as a whole. Your position then, which you can articulate on the other side of the break, is that it is speaking of the righteous martyrs within Israel or the righteous remnant.

Now I'm quite sure I can demonstrate that doesn't work either, but we come back, let's find out where Rabbi Asher Mezer believes that Isaiah 53 is speaking of a righteous remnant or specifically martyrs, righteous martyrs within Israel. And I'll seek Joshua White speaking of the one righteous martyr. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Oh, it's not it. Welcome back to the line of fire on this thirdly Jewish Thursday. I'm having a friendly conversation, mini dialogue, many debate with Rabbi Asher Meser about Isaiah 53.

So the passage begins 52, 13 to 53, 12, but there are other passages relating to the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 40 through 53. Are they all talking about the same individual or the same group? Or does it vary? Are there different subjects?

So, Rabbi Meser, your position is that it's speaking of the righteous remnant within Israel specifically. The martyrs within Israel, is that correct? specifically the profits within Israel. Any messenger of the Almighty sent to wicked Israel at that time. All right, so what why don't you go ahead and You certainly agreed, um on verse chapter five, you translated it as he suffered for our sins.

And I think that's where our main disagreement actually begins. Right. I mean, there is status. It says in other words, it's Man before a word means either for or because of, right? This is clear even in modern Hebrew.

The question is, why would someone who is knowledgeable in Tanakh think that this is actually saying that someone is going to be martyred in And then expiated way for their sins. Right. So the way the JPS and many Jewish translations translate it as because of our transgestion. because of our transgressions or our sins, not for our sins. But Both words actually apply, but it's how you understand it.

If someone suffers because of wicked Israel, because of their transgressions, well, that happens in everyday life. We know that the goods suffer for for the wicked all the time. I mean But we just uh Right. Like many years ago, an ultra-Orthodox rabbi I was talking to said to me, if I punch him in the face, he's suffering for my sins.

Well suffering in the macro. I mean, that would be suffering in the mind. Right, but the problem is, though, right, if you say because of or for, either way, same end result, what the text makes clear overall, explicitly clear, is number one, that by his wounds were healed.

So if I punch someone in the face, They're not healed by my wounds. I'm not healed by wounding them. They're hurt, and God's going to judge me for it. The previous verse, though, tells us, in other words, it's not just how we're going to parse the mem there, right, in Isaiah 53, 5, because the verse before it. The end of that verse and the verse after it tells us exactly what it means.

Verse 4 says that he's borne our sorrows and carried our pains. Right? And then we thought he was suffering for his own sins. He was smitten by God. Instead, he was suffering for our sins.

By his wounds, we're healed. And then how is Isaiah fifty-three six and of vadonahiv gia boah of van kulano the lord has caused to light upon him The iniquity of us all.

So It's explicit in terms of what those prepositions actually mean. I wouldn't say it's explicit, it's completely hyperbolic. The whole chapter is Has a lot of symbolism.

Now, it has to, first of all, align with the message in Torah, which is why I said that the formula that appears in Torah for exile. prophetic intervention or And ultimately, once we repent, that ultimate redemption Has the time with this. In other words, Isaiah was not the first prophet. Yeshua, if you believe. was the profit you would have to agree.

Was also not the first or the last prophet. This has happened throughout Jewish history countless times over and over again. A messenger of the Lord is sent to wicked Israel. Israel. It's made it.

Uh, Israel makes them to suffer. As a matter of fact, the New Testament aligned with this idea in Acts chapter 7, verse 52. It states, Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, and now you are his betrayers and murderers. In other words, It's tying the idea that those who are sent to wicked Israel are made to suffer.

Why should someone believe that Isaiah fifty three is in some exclusive manner only talking about one person? Right, so to explain that, the The We're not reading this in a vacuum. We're reading it as we see, for example, Isaiah 49, the same servant. seems to have failed in his mission to Israel, and God tells him, Not only will you regather tribes of Israel, but you're going to bring my salvation to the ends of the earth. You might say, well, who is that referring to?

Isaiah the 50th chapter. Speaking in very individual terms about the servant having hair ripped out of his beard and suffering a certain way. And then the end of 52, 13, what does it tell us there? That he's going to be highly exalted, right? Which prophet then, you're telling me that all the prophets are going to be so highly exalted in godlike terms, that they'll be high and lifted up, the same terminology used about God in Isaiah 6, that you know the Midrosh, which says about Isaiah 52, 13, that the servant of the Lord, speaking of the Messiah, will be more highly exalted than Abraham, Moses, and the ministering angels.

That certainly doesn't apply to any other prophet that's ever lived. And then as we agree to the market, I think anyone who dies in the service of the Lord has something great awaiting them. As a matter of fact, Greater than Abraham, Moses, and the ministering angels? Hang on. There's another midrash that says that Isaiah himself was murdered by Manasseh.

Yeah, right.

So this ties, I mean, no, no, no, but hang on, let's just focus on this for a second so we can be fair to what you're saying. Show if Abraham and Moses are both prophets, okay? if they both suffer in certain ways for their for their faith. But you're telling me every prophet that suffered is going to be raised up higher than Abraham, Moses, and the ministering angels? You're not going to find a syllable in Jewish tradition that says that.

This is in Torah. First of all, Abraham is not understood to be that type of prophet. These are prophets post-Moses. In other words, every prophet had to be tested by the Senegerin. It means prophets that were sent to Israel for them to repent.

Abraham existed before Israel was even a nation. My point is that If that there is no exclusivity. Then there's no definite Messiah in the context, i.e., who Christians claim this is only talking about, right? And who they claim that it's the only way to do that. I gotta press you here, though.

Show me where in Jewish tradition. It says that prophets like Jeremiah or Isaiah or others who suffered, will be more highly exalted than Abraham, Moses, and the ministering angels. But the Torah itself, the Tor Nortanach, Speaks of some sort of afterlife, right? You know, so you'd only be. Relying on midrashim that constantly contradicts themselves, written by people who did not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, so you really can't use it.

And I mean, when you don't Yourself consider them an authority. No, no, but I'm speaking to you as a rabbi. It's a well-accepted Midrash. It's Midrash Tanchuma. It carries tremendous weight.

It's widely accepted. I don't think it carries tremendous weight. In the Rabbinic community. But the bottom line is: the bottom line is, you keep referring to Torah. I'm letting you refer to either Torah or Rabbinic tradition to back your point.

It is a totally exclusive text because no one. No profit. if they're just a regular human being, is going to be that highly exalted. Just what the text says there, the only one spoken of in terms like that in Isaiah is God Himself. You know, Ramvenisa, high and lifted up in Isaiah the sixth chapter.

So it tells us that this one. is going to be that highly exalted. And now I'm saying within your own traditions, it says he'll be even more highly exalted than Abraham, Moses, and the ministering angels. And you're telling me, well, any prophet who suffers will be. I'm saying show me show me that either in the Tanakh or in rabbinic tradition.

I'm saying it doesn't exist. The talk is mute in this area, and you're quoting one legend.

Now, we know that people who are martyred for the Almighty. be a special share in the world to come. this idea and also I started off my talk saying that this does not exclude Yeshua if you believe he's a prophet or he's a messenger.

However, it's for sure not exclusive to Yeshua because he's talking to a specific people at a specific time who knew the Torah, who knew that Deuteronomy chapter 18 says that when Israel begins to emulate the nations of the world, the Almighty is going to raise up for them a prophet. In other words, Isaiah was a very important thing. It doesn't even say prophet here, though, but it doesn't even say prophet anywhere in this text. Right. This is my sorter.

Right, but you said it refers to specifically the prophets. It doesn't mention that. It speaks of an Isaiah is a prophet. as this profit inventions It speaks about every messenger sent to Israel, whether you're a prophet, A messenger. But it's not speaking about the afterlife.

Behold, my servant shall act wisely. He shall be high, and lifted up, shall be exalted. For he suffers terribly, right? Verse 14, verse 15.

So shall he sprinkle many nations? Kings shall shut their mouths because of him. For that which has not been told them, they see, and that which they have not heard, they understand. This is at the end of this age. The insight comes.

It's not the afterlife. But I want to. I want to go back to this point and then we've got a break coming up so you get to go first and we come back. I believe clearly, Isaiah 52, 13 to 15. lays out exclusivity.

that it cannot refer to Moses or say Isaiah or Jeremiah. And when you just discard Mitra Chan Kuma, I'd say that that's not in keeping. with an Orthodox rabbi. If you want to qualify that you're not really Orthodox, that's fine, but I believe you believe you are. Others would challenge that, but we'll be right back.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Uh Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. I'm speaking with Rabbi Asher Meza about Isaiah 53. Tell you what. We are trying to get in detail and focus on things. If we have to go a few minutes longer, are you able to do that, sir?

Absolutely. Oh, okay.

So I got in the last word. Why don't you respond and then we can move on to elsewhere in the text? I'm saying that we have no evidence in scripture that any of the prophets who suffered, be it Jeremiah, be it Isaiah, be it others who suffered or some were even killed. And we all agree on that. Yeshua himself references Jerusalem killing the prophets.

There's no argument on that. Midrosh even talks about the elders in Israel being killed by the people at Mount Sinai.

So there's a long history of that. But I'm saying nowhere does it say that they will be so highly exalted the way described in Isaiah 52, 13 to 15, that that refers exclusively to Yeshua and even by some rabbinic interpretation refers exclusively to the Messiah.

So if you have one more comeback, go ahead. Go ahead, then we'll move on to another part of the text. Mm-hmm.

Well, first of all, you're quoting one dash. Right. How about many of the other Midrashim that speak about Yeshua boiling in a cauldron of escrum, or the other midrashim that teach that the Messiah is no longer coming because that expired in the time of Yeah. Right. In other words, We know, and I'm sure you agree, that the profits were made to suffer.

And I didn't only limit it to profits, I said messengers in general. You say you're saying now But then I'm only limiting it to profits. No, no, that's right. That's right. If I misheard that, or profits are messages.

Right. The Songs of the Martyrs is what I called it. But are you about to say that you're basing your proof on the ex on the exclusivity of Isaiah fifty three On a middle? That by the simple fact, every writer, virtually every student of those Med Rashim, rejected Yeshua. I don't think.

That adds too much weight to the exclusivity of Yeshua being spoken there, right? Uh Are you just to respond to service um Yeah, just to respond to that quickly. The first thing is when you refer to various statements within the Talmud about Yeshua. Or about, say, for example, we won't see any Messianic days because it expired already in the days of Hezekiah. There's an immediate rebuke to that, you know, that statement.

God forbid. And it's in the midst of Talmud discussion going back and forth. It's different than a statement saying in Nidrash Tanchuma, which is a widely accepted statement elsewhere in rabbinic interpretation to the point that it even colors some interpretation. And some would say, yeah, that beginning section does refer to the Messiah, but then the rest of it refers to Israel. But all I'm saying is this.

I'm giving you two options, okay? I'm giving you the option of proving it scripturally. And you cannot show them anywhere in Scripture where a prophet or martyr Will be that highly exalted, using even godlike language, the way it's described there. Or. Since the Midrosh interprets it a certain way, and you're an Orthodox rabbi, give me then rabbinic interpretation.

That supports your view. That's what I'm saying. Go either way. If you want to. I'm giving you a rabbinic interpretation first.

and helping you understand how metadata chain worked. And I'm not sure how you feel with that technical that a middle Tanhuma in some way outweighs Agada and the Talmud itself. But In terms of asking you for proof in scripture, You know that proof in the scripture doesn't exist.

So then, where are you getting it from? If you're not getting it from scripture and you're not getting it from tradition, where are you getting it from? I'm not the one claiming exclusivity, you know, which is why I'm including all prophets and messengers. You're claiming exclusivity because you know, hold on, hold on. Forget the madrash, forget the madrash for now.

Okay, you have nothing to do with scripture to justify your position either. Of course, I'm quoting scripture to you. All right, we've got to do our best to not talk past each other, okay? Because we're both thinking individuals. We have the ability to digest an argument and respond to it.

All right.

So here's the issue. I'm saying that the exaltation spoken of at the end of Isaiah 52, verses 13 to 15 is unique. and it cannot apply to any other prophets who suffered. This is a high exaltation that can only refer to Yeshua. The Messiah.

I'm basing that on Scripture. That's number one. Number two, I'm also saying for a rabbinic Jew, isn't it interesting? That there's a tradition that speaks of the Messiah being this highly exalted. In other words, something exclusive.

So Don't want to deal with the midrash, that's fine. Don't want to deal with the traditional. It's one view, another is fine. Show me anywhere in the Bible then. where any other individual is going to be this highly exalted.

And you say you can't. That there's nothing in the Bible.

So, where's your position coming from? If it's not coming from the Bible, it's not coming from tradition. Where's the comment from? Which words are you using? What version are you using?

I can't use that verse because this is the verse in dispute. In other words, If it's not pointing to one specific person, by definition, it would have to include all messengers. But you're saying that you have proof, that you have biblical proof that it's talking about the Messiah. I'm saying, I'm saying, oh, I could give you the proof easily through the rest of the chapter. I'm saying, show me where any other individual other.

then the Messiah will be this highly exalted. I can show you Psalm 110, the Messiah is going to sit at God's right hand. He'll be that highly exalted.

Okay? But you show. Does that even appear in Scripture? Ha ha ha ha. Listen, I'm doing my best to give you a shot, but I feel like you're playing silly games.

From the Pasha level, well, then. You can't use verses from the chapter in dispute to say that it proves your point when this is the verse we're trying to decipher. If it doesn't matter, Does it speak? Anywhere, let's say this. We don't know who this is about.

Okay, let's just say that. You and I discover this text one day in our Bible.

Somehow we didn't have it before. We're missing pages in our Bible. We discover it in our Hebrew Bible and we begin reading it and we say, wow, who? Who is That servant That is going to be so highly exalted. And when I look at the text, when I exegete it just on the plain level, I see, wow.

This is so highly exalted. This is not what normally I don't see this happening to anybody else except the son of David, this promised Redeemer that's going to rule the earth and so on. High, lifted up. Boy, that's the same language that's used in Isaiah 6 about God Himself.

Now, I believe that there is a reason that many people only think that it's talking about Yeshua, and it's Simply because most people do not read the Hebrew scripture, Jew and Gentile alike. If all you know is Gospels, then who else are you going to think it's talking about? But if you know Torah, if you know Tanakh, if you know the prophets, You know that the messengers of God, whether it's Moses, Who wasn't allowed to enter the promised land, whether it's Jeremiah, whether in this case Isaiah, who himself was murdered. You would only come to the conclusion that this is speaking about messengers in general unless you have a verse pointing to a specific individual, which you don't. You're quoting a Midrash, you try to justify it.

I said, forget the Midrash. I said, forget the Midrash. All right, tell you what, we got it. We got a break here. The text is in the singular.

The text is in the singular. So I'm not going to interpret it in the plural unless there's compelling reason. And I keep making the same point over again, which we're going to leave here and go on to something else. The exaltation it speaks of applies to no other human being in Scripture except the Messiah.

Well, you know what day it is. You know what time it is? Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us, friends, on the line of fire broadcast. It is Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. This is Michael Brown. Whenever possible, I have conversations with those who differ with me on different subjects. I love on thoroughly Jewish Thursdays when religious Jews will call in and ask honest questions and challenge what I believe many have been very gracious in doing so in the midst of our disagreements.

And a few years back, I was contacted by a Jewish rabbi, a man who was not raised believing these things, but became an Orthodox Jewish rabbi. But he believes in converting Gentiles into Judaism. There's controversy within the Jewish community over that. We've dialogued here and there. And he suggested maybe we chat again on the phone.

I don't know, maybe we did a couple of months back.

So I said, great, let's talk about Isaiah, the 53rd chapter.

So we've been in the midst of a discussion, but we're going to take just a few more minutes. But I want to start afresh. because we've got new folks just tuning in. I want to start afresh for you.

So Rabbi Asher Meza, let's focus in on this. I say that Isaiah 53 is speaking of vicarious suffering. that the suffering of the servant was on behalf of, in place of, the guilty party. and that the servant's wounds brought healing to the guilty party, which is why it can't refer to Israel as a whole or even to the martyrs within Israel, because their suffering did not bring healing to those that smote them. Rather, God judged them for that.

So what's your take on what seems to be vicarious suffering spoken of there? I don't think it's speaking about or even it even sounds like it's speaking about vicarious softening. suffering but more of a reactionary suffering. This messenger or these messengers are suffering because of Israel. Which is What's expected to happen when you take someone who's righteous and you send them to wicked individuals for them to repent?

And I think that the Jews were expecting this. Um The notion of prophetic intervention is clear and toward that the Almighty will send the prophet. when Israel begins to stray. Um now I'm not saying it's speaking about one specific individual. You're saying that.

And I think if we don't know. who it's specifically speaking about. It's right for us to assume with that Torah backing that it's speaking about any messenger sent to wicked Israel. All right, so Just to understand this then, and we've got a short segment here, so we'll carry on just a couple of minutes into the segment that follows. Just to be clear, then, we know, for example, a passage like 2 Chronicles 36, where God sends prophets to his people, prophets to his people.

We reject them, we reject them, we reject them, we persecute them. Because of that, God's wrath comes on us.

So we. cause the prophets to suffer. And God judges us because of it.

So rather than us being healed, by the prophet's wounds. We ourselves receive judgment. How can you then explain where it says, and at the cost of his wounds, there's healing for us? Rather, based on your interpretation, the prophet comes to Israel. rebukes Israel, sitting Israel, Israel kills the prophet.

But Israel is now judged by God for that. Israel doesn't receive healing, so I still don't understand how you have your view there. The language is hyperbolic. Oh. All of the profits have to be understood from that understanding, it's very poetic.

Ultimately, Israel did receive healing But it's a shame that the messenger has to suffer. And this has happened many times before. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to see it. Jeremiah suffered greatly for Israel. Moses suffered, Samson suffered.

If you're a messenger of God, It should say in the application that you're going to suffer.

Alright, tell you what, you'll resume there. We got a break. You start when we come back. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks folks for joining us on Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. I want to go back to Rabbi Asher Mazer before I get to some other calls. And you were saying right before the break. That The prophets would suffer when they bring messages to Israel, and ultimately. They would somehow be healed by hurting the prophets.

So, anything you wanted to add to that, you got cut off by the break. Back to you.

Well first I'd like to um Thank you for the show. appreciate how gracious and how kind and polite you are. I mean, I wish And we could have more individuals with certain talk shows that are open to hearing different opinions, even though we don't agree, we could still love each other at the end.

Okay. Up. I want to make that clear. that I appreciate you. Um However, the reason I There is an idea that I don't want to overlook here.

Right. Now, I'm very familiar with with the notion that the death of Saddiqam of righteous individuals act like a kapara. Yes. Appears Throughout Midrashim.

However, that was always understood figuratively, i. e. everyone always understood that without teshuva, there is no forgiveness, there is no atonement, which is why I'm sure you still make altar calls today.

So this notion of someone taking The nations sin about themselves, you know, the people sin. Uh it's it really ultimately just means that That person is suffering for us, and we will ultimately see our salvation because of their suffering, but it's really because of the repentance that we make. decision we make to even see that distinction, to see the results of our actions. And I think that The way you're explaining it, it sounds like you're getting stuck on first stage thinking. Yes, ultimately, Isaiah suffered.

Either because of Yeah. It's the same word in Hebrew. But no one Like really with the Torah basis, whatever apply Redemptive Qualities to the individual or individuals it's speaking about here, right? I mean, like, why. One day when the tour itself told us to expect profits, Yeah.

And even the New Testament reiterates the idea that these prophets were mistreated and murdered.

So I Right, but no yeah so it yeah in response. Number one, since you quote Torah, it does mention Deuteronomy 18, God raising up a prophet, doesn't mention the prophet's suffering there, just first thing.

So first reference, there's no mention of the prophet's suffering. The second thing, while the prophets would intercede for their people, where the high priest would bear the sins of his people on his shoulders, on his breastplate when he went into the holiest place of all. The language that's used here goes beyond that. I say, take the text for what it says. You say, no, it's hyperbole.

I say, no, it means what it says. By his wounds were healed. And of course, everything is always with repentance. The blood sacrifices, always with repentance as well. And the whole chapter is very detailed and specific.

He grew up before him like a young plant, like a root out of dry ground. He had no form of majesty that we should look at him. You'd have to say that every prophet who ever lived and suffered, that... Description was fit, or he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death. That each specific detail that's painted out here.

Is it has to refer to every single prophet, which obviously it doesn't. My point would be. God could not have made himself more clear that he's speaking about an individual, that he's speaking about this individual who will be highly exalted and even godlike way just based on the Hebrew language used in comparing to Isaiah. No, does he say he has children? Where's the set at?

But But third was that T. would see his offspring. It doesn't say his, you added in his. You're Azera. He'll see seed, which could simply mean a future generation.

End of Psalm 22, Azarah will talk about future generations. Yeah, I am. The phrase Yerezera occurs nowhere else in the Bible. It doesn't say it means have your own offspring. And it doesn't say it can't be a spiritual offspring.

Zerah means seed, and it's typically always used as humanly seed. But I'm not even saying that this is particular to one individual.

Well, Jeremiah had no children, so you're saying you couldn't reply to Jeremiah then? No. You're saying But the text is very clear and specific. I'm saying that it's speaking about prophets and messengers in general, whether they had children or not. But then why does it yeah so the the fact is it's all in the singular.

I'm saying I'm taking it literally and not in a hyperbolic way. I'm saying through his wounds we really are healed. The Lord laid on him. The iniquity of all of us. And I also see that he will make many righteous as well.

And it gives specifics about his death and that he's going to live beyond death.

So to me, it's black and white clear that it's an individual. And I'll just say this, and then you can get a real quick last word in, and we'll move on to others. I appreciate your desire to have dialogue, and I know you seek to do that in your own settings, to bring on those who differ with you. And thanks for your graciousness towards me in the midst of our differences. But What I'd say is this.

You are going in the right direction. You're just stopping short. Yes, it is a picture of the righteous martyr, but there's only one who was perfectly righteous who fulfills this. And yes, that's part of what God even embedded in rabbinic tradition, as He does in certain places, that the death of the righteous atones. There's only one truly righteous.

So when we receive God's gracious gift, that's our repentance. God, have mercy on me, a sinner. We receive what he's done, salvation does come, and countless hundreds of millions have lived out the reality of this.

So, last word, over to you. You said that Deuteronomy eighteen, what doesn't speak about Israel being wicked or a prophet being sent to wicked Israel. No, I said it doesn't speak of a prophet suffering there.

Okay. Well You know a prophet, our messenger is always going to suffer. if they're sent to wicked individuals. That's just clear. in chapter 18 verse 9.

It starts out like that. It says, When you enter the land the Lord has given you, do not imitate. They're detestable ways. Because if you do, I will raise up for you a profit. Isaiah, Jeremiah.

If you believe Yeshua is a prophet, that does not exclude Yeshua.

Now what do you think the nations are going to do to that process? I think it's understood by every reader of the Torah that that prophet is going to be made to suffer. whether it's a prophet, a messenger, ultimately a martyr. It's true. The profits in that section, in that, so yeah, it's not clear.

If it's one, two, five, ten, one hundred, Even according to the Rambam, we still have prophecy today. Um However, What I think is clear is that it's not exclusive to one individual. This is just a fact of biblical life. And a fact reiterated in Torah all the time that the wicked typically fight against what's good. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that if you believe in your shoe what would exclude.

That would not exclude Yeshua as being a messenger or prophet made to suffer at the hands of which they've l Israel. But there is no specific verse saying that it's only talking about one man. There are many verses in the prophets that you would accept as symbolic. as hyperbolic, as poetry. But for some reason, Isaiah 53, you want to take literally.

And I think a good explanation or a good example on this is how you choose. to understand Zerah as some sort of spiritual offspring, which I'm pretty sure does not exclude. Um some sort of a spiritual offering, but It's not definite. Just like it's not definite that I erase 53 is only talking about one person. Got it.

So, what I'd encourage everyone to do, because I'd let Robert Mesa get in the last. word here. Here's what I'd encourage everyone to do then. Go back and study the text. All right, read from Isaiah 40 all the way to 53, but then specifically 52, 13.

To 5312. And ask yourself, Who is that speaking of? Whatever your background is, who is that speaking of? Ask God to give you revelation and insight. and ask yourself Is this speaking about one individual?

Or is this speaking about many people or a nation as a whole or a group of individuals? If God wanted to speak about an individual, Could he do it more clearly? Should we take this as literal? or hyperbolic Go back and ask those questions. and come to your conclusions.

Hey, always nice chatting. Maybe we'll meet face to face one of these days. Likewise. Thank you. All right, sure thing.

All right, friends, I'm not going to add anything. to that discussion in fairness to Rabbi Mesa. And I imagine he'll grab this. clip we spoke oh Maybe without interruption, maybe 35, 40 minutes about this. Doing our best within the confines of radio with breaks and things like that.

So he'll probably put it up on his YouTube site. He's free to do that. We'll probably put it up on ours so you can listen back to anything that you missed. But this subject, as F-53, of course, came out prominently in a debate. I'm in the midst of a video debate with counter-missionary Rabbi Yiserol Blumenthal.

The format we both agreed on, because we couldn't agree on other formats, was we each present 20 minutes on the real Jewish Messiah. The same day we post on YouTube at the same time. Then, one month later, we both post rebuttals, 20 minutes each. Then one month later, which is coming up in less than two weeks, we post responses to our rebuttals.

So, if you haven't watched any of that, go to my website, ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. Just type in Blumenthal, and then you can watch. God of light, hear our cry, send a fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. It's Thurley Jewish Thursday. I want to go to the phones for your Jewish-related questions.

Some have been posted on Facebook and Twitter as well. I want to try to respond to some of them. Oh, one thing that's very important to Rabbi Blumenthal and to me is that you watch both of our presentations.

Alright, that's the goal.

So you watch my presentation and you'll see in the YouTube description there's a link to his presentation.

So watch both of our opening presentations. Watch his first, my first, whichever you like. Then And they're 20 minutes each, okay? And we both, with the first one, posted links with our notes as well. I basically read mine verbatim.

His is very close to verbatim. And then one month later, we already posted these now, rebuttals to each other. And there's lots of discussion on my YouTube channel, lots of back and forth, religious Jews weighing in, Messianic Jews weighing in, others weighing in.

So watch both of our rebuttals to one another. And then, God willing, less than two weeks, we'll be posting our final responses to each other's rebuttals. Yeah, I much prefer back and forth. I can question him, he can question me, challenge each other back and forth, back and forth. That's not his style.

He's not at home with that. He he prefers to get the argument, look at it, digest it. And then put together a response. He proposed written debate and. I'd love to do that, but time doesn't permit it to go back and forth.

And my concern was we could go years of exchanges and not make the headway we could in the face-to-face.

So he proposed this. I proposed something else that didn't work for him. He proposed this. I said, okay, great. Let's do this.

So yes, I know many of you want us to go back and forth in a live setting, or some would like us to go back and forth in a written setting. But for both of us, It doesn't work one for one reason, the other for another reason.

So, in the midst of our very serious differences, we agreed to do this, and I hope you find it educational. and helpful. This is for serious, in-depth discussion about The real Messiah.

Okay, 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. We'll start in the state of Washington with Neil. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, doctor Brown. Thanks for taking my call.

You are very welcome. Before I ask, I just want to say thank you and encourage you that your example both to commitment to academic fairness and to just really showing the love of Christ throughout all your conversations, even if they do get heated, is an example that we should all be following. And I just praise God for you.

Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

So my question for you today is I Struggle understanding the development of the Jewish understanding of the afterlife as we read through the Old Testament and into the New Testament and then. um you know into uh you know uh post Uh Jesus. Jewish writings, it seems like the development of their understanding of the afterlife has changed changed. And I was wondering if you could just kind of give me a thirty thousand foot view of what that has been like. Yeah, and thank you.

Thank you for the very kind words, Neil.

Okay, number one. There were different beliefs about the afterlife in different Jewish circles. in Jesus' day. And we know that, of course. because he deals with the Pharisees about it, he deals with the Sadducees about it.

And with the Sadducees, they didn't believe in a resurrection, a world to come. And that's why he says God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, right?

So they all live to him.

So Pharisees did believe in the world to come, and Pharisees even had beliefs that were similar to heaven and hell in certain regards. And there's a passage in the Talmud that states that the perfectly righteous go straight up. the totally wicked goes straight down. But those that are basically you're in between, which is the vast majority of human beings, they go down for a while and they come up. That becomes somewhat the basis for the view of a period of suffering that is limited.

And that's what Jews hold to today.

Now, a reformed Jew, a very liberal Jew, might not even believe in a world to come at all. In other words, they're more influenced by just secular thinking. and because Judaism has an emphasis on this world. Even though Jews have often suffered greatly through the centuries, They're looking for the Messianic era, they're looking for redemption in that way, but it's played out primarily in this world. There's less thought about what would be referred to as the yeshiva on high, you know, the heavenly place of Torah study where Jews can study Torah forever and ever and ever.

The greater emphasis is on serving God day to day in this world, is what you get from Torah itself, right, the five books of Moses, and praying for the messianic era, the time of redemption. And because Jews have often suffered greatly through the centuries, This means that we've longed for that messianic era to come where we'd be delivered from our sufferings.

Now, all that being said, a traditional Jew today. We believe that in the case of the vast, vast, vast majority of human beings on the planet, and let's say a Jewish person, Upon death, the they would have certain sins they still had to pay for. For example, a guy commits a certain crime and he does the time for that crime.

So There are sins that we commit. We ask God to forgive us. We repent, we make restitution, we have the day of atonement, maybe there's human suffering added in. Then our death, all these things can be payment in a certain way for our sin in traditional Jewish thinking. But when you still die, There needs to be some level of purging, some level of paying.

And it's not discussed a lot. The details are not discussed a lot. And if you go to a traditional Jewish funeral, Say for a famous rabbi, they are wailing and weeping, not because they have no hope at all of the world to come, but because they are focused on. obeying God in this world. And are mourning the loss of this man who was such a luminary in their generation and played such an important role.

in their generation.

However, There is the belief that you do suffer in kind of a purgatory type setting for up to 11 months. The tradition is that it's 12 months. But really, almost no one is that wicked that it's actually 12 months. The exact nature of the suffering, that's debated. as well But it's not a major focus.

The goal is that you have someone praying what's called the mourner's koddish every day. That they go to synagogue and they pray this. It's not a prayer that focuses on the dead. It's a prayer that focuses on God's greatness and on redemption. If you want to read it, Neil, read the text of the prayer.

It's called The Mourner's Koddish, K-A-D-D-I-S-H. K-A-D-D-I-S-H, it's a. Beautiful prayer, exalting God and with a longing for redemption.

So, the goal is someone praise that for you. on uh or in your memory every day. And then it will ease your sufferings or speed your sufferings in the world to come. And then basically you are with God. and studying Torah and That's basically what you get to do forever and of course there's the messianic era on this world in this world before the final end.

By the way, in my book... 60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices. I touched on some of this as well. Hey, out of time here, but thank you, sir. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.

Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

See me it's colour. Friends, it is thoroughly Jewish Thursday on the line of fire. I do have time to take some of your calls today. I have some online questions, Jewish-related questions that have been posted on Twitter and on Facebook. I want to answer some of those.

Here's the number to call 866-34TRUTH-8623. 866-348-7884. I've got a very important new article up entitled, Yes, Gay Activists Are After Your Children. He said, what exactly do you mean in what way? Read the article.

We're talking about indoctrination. It is eye-opening and getting a lot of attention. You can read that in the digital library at thelineoffire.org. I also have a new fun video called The Safest Video on YouTube. Yeah, a video with no triggering.

It is a safe space video.

So I had some fun with it. It's a minute long. It's gotten a lot of positive responses so far.

So check that out. That's also on the digital library at thelineofire.org. 866-348-788. Eight. Four.

Okay, some questions here that have been posted on Twitter. Uh let's start with this one from Andrew. In reference to pearls, pearly gait, or pearls before swine. or pearls considered unclean for Jewish people. Oh, oh, no pearls are things of value.

Pearls are things of beauty.

So that's why you don't cast your pearls before swine. Pig's not going to recognize the beauty of that. Pig's not going to recognize the value. of that. Pigs is going to trample it or try to eat it.

Because there's no clue that it's valuable and beautiful.

So no, it's quite the contrary. Pearl would would be something of importance. And when the Bible speaks of a city being ordained, like uh or adorned, excuse me, Isaiah 54 with all the beautiful stones. And it's 'cause the stones are highly valuable and and and beautiful. Yes, so no, not not unclean, quite the contrary.

But we understand the concept that Jesus Yeshua is talking about in Matthew the 7th chapter. For example, if if I was talking to a bunch of people who mocked God and mocked my relationship with God and mocked the things of the Spirit, I would not share with them one of the most intimate things that God did in my life or shared with me, only have it ridiculed and scorned.

Okay? So absolutely, pearls before swine. Is an important principle for us to go by, no question whatsoever. Let's see. Uh okay, Joey.

Palestinian Christian asked, if the state of Israel is a sign of God's faithfulness, what kind of sign is it? to the Palestinian people. Exactly that. It's a sign. of God's faithfulness.

that he keeps his promises despite our sins. are shortcomings. that he keeps his promises. that He works out His plan in the earth, even where we fail and mess up. And If We will put our trust in Him and turn to Him in repentance.

He will bring his plan to completion. Palestinians. should recognize the mercy of God on the lost sheep of the house of Israel. recognize God bringing the Jewish people back to the land. and also recognizing that those that bless Israel will be blessed, and therefore, if they become friends of the Jewish people, Friends of God's covenant partners, despite Israel's sins, if they become friends of the Jewish people rather than enemies of the Jewish people, they'll be blessed as well.

Yeah, it's positive for everybody, if rightly. Receive. We'll be right back. Age the world O God of burning, cleansing flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

He never Thanks for being part of our Thurley Jewish Thursday broadcast, 866-348-7. Eight eight five. Before I answer some more online questions, let's go to Joseph in Atlanta. Welcome to the line of fire. Yes.

Hello, doctor Brown. Thank you for taking my call. I wanted to ask you about uh an Orthodox teacher that I've uh just uh discovered on YouTube. And I wanted to know if you had heard of him or his teaching. His name is Ariel Cohen Aloro.

And I believe he uh believes in Yeshua And he has written some materials on the second trial of Jesus, where he believes that Jesus would be found innocent. And he says that he's able to prove all of these things. along with the Trinity through the use of Gematria. And I guess my question is about him and about Gematria.

Okay, yes, so let me answer this on three levels. First... I'm certainly familiar with this rabbi, with this teacher. And in fact Now, two years ago in Israel, I was walking down the streets in Jerusalem with a friend. And I saw him and I thought, there's the guy.

And we just started chatting for a minute and... uh chatting in Hebrew for a minute and he gave me his card and I always have stacks of cards I just put away. I found it the other day, so I actually went back on YouTube just to look a little bit more about his position. But yes, I'm certainly familiar.

Okay, so. He as an Orthodox Jew Is trying to get the religious Jewish world to reconsider who Yeshua is. and says that the first trial was not a proper trial. That he should be retried today so as to be exonerated.

So that's the first thing. He is living as a religious Jew. If you see him, he looks like a religious Jew. He is a practicing religious Jew, as far as I know.

So he's not saying convert to Christianity. He's saying recognize Yeshua as one of our own as the Messiah.

So that's the first thing. And I've believed for many years that God is going to raise up all kinds of people like this from different angles to try to get us to rediscover who Yeshua is as Jews, especially traditional Jews.

Now, God knows whether this man's a true believer or not, what exactly he believes. I haven't spoken with him in enough depth.

Some of my colleagues have and feel very good about his beliefs. I'm just saying, for those listening and you're looking at me for my seal of approval or something, I just don't know that much about the man and his beliefs. They're certainly available. People can watch and see. Number two.

He would try to get Jewish people to recognize Yeshua as Meshiach ben Yosef, the Messiah son of Joseph. that that there are religious Jews For many centuries, they have believed in two messianic figures at the end of the age: the Messiah, son of Joseph, who will fight and die. in the last great battle. before being raised up from the dead by the Messiah son of David. And in some accounts here and there, that that there are uh There are instances of even looking to his suffering as being vicarious, but basically, he's the suffering Messiah in Judaism, and Rabbi Eloros is trying to get Jewish people to recognize that aspect.

There's a whole book by David C. Mitchell. On Messiah Ben Yosef, Messiah son of Joseph. David C. Mitchell, it's a scholarly work.

It's very comprehensive.

Some of it's controversial. I don't accept every one of his premises. But he tries to demonstrate how pervasive this idea of Messiah son of Joseph is.

So that's the second thing. The third thing is the use of Gematria. And Gematria assigns a numerical value to every letter.

So originally the Hebrew letters were just letters. At a certain point in time, they came to be used as numbers as well.

So the Hebrew, when you're just writing out the number one in Hebrew, like... you know, we write one, two, three, four. When you're writing that Out. Uh, you'd write in Hebrew, it's the it'd be like A, B, A is one, B is C, etc. B is two, C is three.

So Gematria uses the numerical values for the Hebrew letters, which are universally recognized for many centuries now, and then comes up with spiritual meanings based on that.

So it would say, okay, your name, Yosef. In Hebrew, the Yud is 10, the Vav is 6. And it would go through that, and it would say, let's just say. Hypothetically, okay, that the numerical value of your name is 123.

Well, wow, that's also the numerical value of Atlantis.

So that shows you're Joseph from Atlanta. It's basically playing games with the words. I don't believe there's any authority to it whatsoever. I don't believe that God... intended to speak through the letters as numbers any more than if you turned every English word into into numbers and and came up with meanings.

Uh and it's normally used Midrashically, homiletically, in Jewish sources, like, you know, we know Menachem is the name of the Messiah because Menachem equals Messiah in Gematria, or whatever the analogies would be. Or, you know, this is a false prophet because this name equals Shecher, falsehood in Hebrew. You can come up with anything. You know, I'm looking at a bottle of water here on my desk next to my cell phone.

Well, it could be that bottle equals cell phone numerically. And you know, you come up with anything. I don't accept it as having any authority. whatsoever.

However, If it's one way for a rabbinic Jew to communicate with a rabbinic Jew. And God uses that to get them to go to the truth of the word and what the plain sense of scripture is, that let God be God. If that's a method of interpretation that has value to them, and he's able to use that to get them to see something fine, I just don't see it as a legitimate method of interpretation having any authority behind it. Understood. Thank you.

I appreciate that.

You are very welcome, and thank you for the call and the questions.

So, overall, I see this as a very good thing. I see God at work in all of this. How we get to the destination may be a little bit Different. 866-34-TRUTH.

Okay. Here's a question from Nicole. in India. How did synagogues come into existence? What's the difference between temple and synagogue?

Yes, sir. The temple was the one and only temple. First the tabernacle, under Moses and David, and then the Temple of Solomon. And then the second temple that came about during the time of Haggai and Serupaval and these others.

So there was one temple, one temple only, that was ultimately located in Jerusalem. This was the place to which the people of Israel would go, all males, three times a year. were to go to Jerusalem. This was the place of sacrifice. This was the place where atonement was made for Israel.

Now, the Israelites often disobeyed. They had high places and shrines and counterfeit temples and things like that. But in God's sight, there was one temple and one temple only.

Now, what happened was, as the Jewish people were scattered in different parts of the world, as they did not have access to the temple. They couldn't make the pilgrimage three times a year. They needed a place where they could pray, where they could learn, that this seems to be primarily a Pharisaical development. The Pharisees began to introduce the idea of all Israel living in a priestly way. and the people of Israel being able to come together in their communities and study and pray.

So by Yeshua's day, this was a common practice in the Jewish world that you would have a synagogue. There was the temple. And that was the place where Jews would come from around the world and pass over, for example, the. According to Josephus, the historian of the day, Jewish historian of the day, the population of Jerusalem was probably three to four times its normal size because pilgrims would be coming in from all over. But.

In village after village, town after town, there were synagogues. And that was their purpose. To come together in a place where people could pray together, so recite the ritual prayers, and the scriptures could be read, and the scriptures could be. taught. And that begins a couple hundred years before the time of Jesus to develop more and more.

Now... To this day. Jews have synagogues around the world, and they're called synagogues. They may have other names, but called synagogues.

However, the Reformed Jews and the conservative Jews who are not as orthodox, they will call their synagogues temples.

So if you see a building that says, say, Temple Beth Shalom, or something like that, that tells you it is not Orthodox, because if it was Orthodox. Orthodox, it would only be called a synagogue.

So there were many synagogues and one temple in ancient Israel. Today, on and off for the last Couple hundred years, different Jewish groups have called their synagogues temples. Because they don't Practice animal sacrifice, some of them aren't praying for animal sacrifice.

So, hey, this temple is as good as any, you could say. I hope that answers your question. We'll be right back. God changed the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Hey, just a reminder, if you want to get some of my DVDs, debates I've done with rabbis, gay activists, agnostic professors, if you want to get extensive teaching series I have on DVD or specific messages on DVD, this month all of our DVDs are 30% off. 30% off.

So take advantage of that by going to askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-RBrown.org. No limit, no minimum required amount.

So take advantage of these. I believe you will be blessed in the process. Process.

Okay, let's see. Josie, worshiping on the sun god day and other pagan traditions. Is this something that Christian churches need to work towards changing? Field Torrent. Josie, first, don't think of Sunday as sun god day.

Every day in that respect is the same. We have certain names of days, okay? But Thursday is not the day for Thor.

Okay, that's just the way the names got passed on. The same name used for God in the Bible or for Lord, one of them is used for pagan deities as well.

So names can be used rightly, wrongly. In this case, it's just a name. The question is, is seventh day Sabbath something that God has universally called everyone to? I've addressed that quite a few times. And if you'll go to my website, askdrbrown.org, and in the search engine, just type in Sabbath.

You'll find lots of teaching on that. I do not believe that God gave a command anywhere in the Bible. and then even more specifically in the New Testament that everyone must set aside Jew and Gentile, okay, not just Jews, but Jew and Gentile, set aside the seventh day as Sabbath. And we also know that fairly early on, In what we call church history, the believers met either early Sunday morning before work or late Sunday in the day after work to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. And it's out of that that the tradition grew for people to gather more and more on Sunday.

Because remember, the vast majority coming in after a few decades, they were no longer Jewish. Jews continued to come to faith, but more and more Gentiles came in. And therefore, these Gentile customs became common, but they weren't sinful customs, they weren't wrong customs.

Now the Catholic Church in the fourth century decreed that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. They had no authority to do that. But it's perfectly fine if Christians, especially Gentile Christians, celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. on a Sunday and gather together to do that, fine, wonderful. And if God will one day turn everyone back to a seventh-day Sabbath in a millennial kingdom, then let God be God.

And if Messianic Jews find it most appropriate to gather for a Shabbat service, to gather on Saturday, I'm 100% for it. I support it and believe in it. But I also support and believe if Gentile Christians in particular But any believer feels to to gather on a Sunday, great. If the only time you can gather Because of your life circumstances, it's on a Thursday night to worship the Lord, that's certainly acceptable. Before him.

So I'd encourage you not to feel torn unless the Lord Himself has put something in your heart. Randy, Ask this. Thanks for all the Twitter questions today. Is Judaism considered the spirit of Antichrist since they deny Christ was God, was resurrected, and the the Messiah. Antichrist in terms of against Jesus being the Messiah.

Yes, now Judaism is not primarily against Jesus being the Messiah. Judaism is its own religion. with its own focus. And the the most religious Jews on the planet, 99.9% of their thinking is not against Jesus He's not in their thinking. It's how can we please God by observing His Torah?

How can we live as Jews in a way that's pleasing in His sight? How can we bring in the Messianic era and they're looking for the Messiah to come and set up His kingdom, rule, and reign on the earth. On the flip side, when Judaism interfaces With the proclamation of Jesus the Messiah. Yes, it is anti-Messiah, anti-Christ in that respect, that it denies that He's the Messiah and denies that He's the Son of God.

So, yes, certainly that is true, but Judaism in its essence. Is not anti-Christ. Judaism, in its essence, is, I would say, without. Christ without Jesus the Messiah and in desperate need of him. But from a Jewish perspective, Judaism is self-sufficient.

Judaism is a beautiful religion. Judaism, by God's grace, has preserved the Jewish people through the centuries, and they're just fine without our Jesus. That's how they look at it, and praying for the real Messiah to come. Our argument is he is the. the real Messiah.

Let's just see here if I can get to Okay. Uh All right, so the question All right. Being a Jew. exclusively a matter Or can it be a matter of the heart?

Well, in in Romans 2... What I understand Paul to be saying is is between two Jews who's the real Jew. The one is a Jew only outwardly. circumcised outwardly or the one who's a Jew with a circumcised heart. as well as being a Jew.

Physically. That's what I understand is being said there. That's what I believe is being said. Between two Jews, who's the real Jew? He's not denying, because if you go to Romans 3, the very next verse, He comes together in Romans 2.

Then he starts with Romans 3.

Well, well, then what's the advantage of being a Jew? He's talking about a physical ethnic Jew.

So I would say that even if a Gentile Christian feels in their heart through a spiritual To every time Revolution Shake the new sign saves the world We're coming every time and dunking the revolution We're coming every time and dunking send the revolution Come to every time and dunk it's in the revolution Revolution. Come to every tribe and drug it in the revolution. To every tribe and come revolution, shake the nation, change the world. Shake the nation, change the world. Change the world.