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Anywhere you get your podcast and content from, absolutely nothing less than five stars. Link is in the description below and we are here live in Dallas, Texas with Dr. Abbadon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor and the host of Today's Shah, Dr. Shah. Today's Shah. Dr. Shah, welcome to Dallas, Texas.
Dr. Shah is not here at the moment. He always trips me up because I always feel like we start the show and like I feel like he's here, but then it turns out he's not. It's really just wishful thinking. We wish he was here. Yeah. We're actually not even at NRB right now. We're in the hotel room right now. So a lot of the filming in NRB has been such that we only get a certain amount of time with all our guests. So we're going to, we do the main segment first and then we've been doing the intros later. Normally we just do them all at once at NRB.
You always got to think on your feet. That's right. It's all about improvisation.
That's right. Improvisation. As some of these, some of the guests that we're going to be interviewing over the next couple of days were not even planned.
Some of them were planned, but then some of them were absolutely last minute. The Butch Hartman episode that came out a couple of weeks ago. That one was one of my all time favorites.
Totally a God thing. And a great, great, great interview conversation with you guys today. But for right now, Ryan, tell us the verse of the day.
I would love to. The verse of the day today is coming to us from Joel chapter two verse 27. Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel. I am the Lord your God and there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame. I think that's one of the things that we look for so much is the assuredness, that confirmation that God is in our midst. I think especially when you do Christian media, right?
You do Christian broadcasting or you really do any creative Christian project. You want to know that God is there. But a lot of times what we end up doing is we wait until we feel that confirmation. Wait till it's safe. We wait till it's safe. Because God, if you're not in it, I don't want to do it. But God, a lot of the times God is saying, go, I'm in it.
I'm so in it. I want you to be moving forward and we're playing hesitant. And NRB is one of the places where if you do that, it really starts to expose like, man, there's deals that are passing me by.
There are opportunities that are passing me right by. Well, Dr. Josh said this before. There's a conversation that's happening.
There is an absolute, especially where Christian broadcasting is concerned, Christian media content. There is a conversation that's happening. And NRB is a chance for you to be a part of that conversation, to be in the room, rubbing elbows and making connections to people who are in that conversation. But if you are hesitant, if you are like, yeah, I just really want to make sure that this is in God's timing. Hey, we're here at NRB. It's in God's timing.
Step out and be obedient. That's right. And you'll find there's a lot of people in Christianity. There's a lot of people in the church and in ministry who are creatives. And they feel like the creative side, the business side, the leadership side, these are all separate things. And so my pastor, he's a leader and our church leaders, they're business and I'm creative. And somehow we have to make all these things gel.
When God is saying, you need to go where the opportunities are actually happening. Because here at NRB, one of the things, and we're talking about it, of course, because we're here, but it's also teaching us a lot. It's been teaching me a lot. I've learned a lot these past couple of days.
I learned a lot last year in 2024 when we came for the first time, but I'm learning that those things are not separate. The business side of ministry, the leadership side of ministry, the creative side of ministry, sides of ministry that I had never even considered. They are all like parts of a whole, which is Christian ministry.
And just because we're broadcasting, right? Just because this is about Christian broadcasting, it's the same in the church. It's the same in leadership. It's the same even in secular business. Everything you do is honoring to God. So I think going back to that verse that we will know that God is in the midst of Israel. You could even say that God is in the midst of his people. You don't have to wait for that feeling.
You don't have to wait until you turn in that book or turn in that proposal or turn in that album. And then millions of people like it. If you are a Christian, you know that God is in your presence. That's right. That's right.
It is. It's so encouraging to be surrounded by people who have the same passion, to be surrounded by people who are operating in the same sphere. Granted, there's podcasters, there's authors, there's tech companies, there's TV personalities, there's apps.
There's all kinds of different walks of life. But ultimately, the heart is the same that the message of the gospel needs to be pushed forward to the nations. And we do that through every available Christ-honored means. That includes airwaves. That includes TV broadcasts. That includes printed media. That includes tech excellence in church.
And it is encouraging to be surrounded by God's people who have the same heart and the same passion to see the gospel in this context. Right. What's been your favorite part of NRB so far? Man.
We only got one more day left. My favorite part so far has been just, I mean, seeing people who are like heroes, seeing people who are like we've seen, and we know these names from like television and know these names from popular media and being able to not just see them passing by. Like, I mean, the episode with Butch Hartman, we have sat down and had conversations and swapped phone numbers with these people. And it is so humbling. I think we were sharing about this the other night. Just sitting back and saying, God, who am I?
Who am I that I thought about this? We had the opportunity to meet Chuck Swindoll. I mean, incredible man of God, literally 19 years old. I'm not saying this to be funny. I didn't even know he was still living. But he was, in my mind, he was one of those living legends of yesteryear that I always hear about and to see him walk across the stage and then of all things, to be able to go up and shake his hand and shake his hand, take a picture with him.
I mean, it is unbelievable to see these people. I know that God has put us at the same time in history to reach the nations. I mean, that's, that's huge for me. 100%. You guys are going to hear a great conversation today. Going to have a great discussion with Joe Knapp. He's one of the producers on I Can Only Imagine, one of the best Christian movie. I'm not just saying that because he's on the show.
I will tell you to your face right now. It's one of the best Christian movies I have ever seen. I would say it's a very, very solid film, even apart from just being a Christian movie. And so for those of you who don't know, this is the movie about the song.
Many of us know this movie that was made about the song and about the Bart, the main singer of mercy me about his life and what led him to the journey of producing this. If you haven't seen the movie, I would, I would suggest watch it. Maybe put this podcast on pause. Go watch it right now.
Come back and listen because one of the producers is going to tell us the story of how that movie came to be. We're going to hook up with Dr. Shah in just a few minutes. We'll see you soon.
That's right. Hey Clearview Today family. Thank you so much for tuning into the show. We're having a great time so far. Listen, if this show has been a source of encouragement and insight for you, we want to take a second and just ask you to consider supporting us financially.
I know that might ruffle feathers a little bit, but think about it. You're listening to this show seemingly because you care about spreading the life changing message of Jesus Christ to the world. Well, your giving allows us to continue sharing that message with other listeners just like you. Your support is more than just encouragement to us. When you give, you're becoming our partner. You're joining with us to spread God's truth and love to a hurting world. And your gift is a reflection of your faith and believe it or not, it's going to make an eternal impact in someone's life.
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You can visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028. That's right, Dr. Shah. Another day at NRB.
That's right. The day at Dallas. We are here. We've been talking about it for weeks that we were coming. Months. Months. Yeah, that's true.
That's true. Months. And we're finally here.
It's a beautiful sunshiny day. How are you feeling, NRB? In a sense, I was expecting this, but it's still overwhelming. The people you meet and some of your heroes are just walking around and you go, wow, I know him. I know him. I know. Yeah.
And so it's been, it's been awesome and you learn so much. Definitely. Definitely.
Especially all the good food and all the free food. Yes. A lot of peppermints. Yeah. Oh yeah.
A lot of peppermints. So I bring that up because we were out at dinner last night and we were sitting beside a gentleman who, some of you may know, he may be sitting right beside us right now, but we were just kind of all going around and we were talking and we were like, Hey, I'm Dr. Abbadan Shah. I run the Clearview Today show. And he's like, Hey, I'm, I'm so-and-so I'm the, you know, the Eastern market manager for Truth Network.
And then this gentleman stands up and goes, hi, I'm Joe Knapp. I'm a film producer. I produced, I Can Only Imagine along with other films. And I said, what did they all say? It was one of those, like, where they had that reel with like a screeching tires, all of our heads went, huh? I was like, what did he just say? He's like, oh, he like wants to be a film producer or something. He was like, no, he produced, I Can Only Imagine. And I remember nudging Dr. Shah. I was like, did he just say he produced, I Can Only Imagine?
Like the, like the, I Can Only Imagine with the Mercy Me movie. And so we got to talking and yes, absolutely. How did that happen? Well, first and foremost, welcome to the show. Yeah.
Thanks guy. It was so cool being at dinner last night and yeah, just a movie producer that loves to tell good stories. You know, my own story, I grew up in an orphanage, so I'm familiar with like the impact that true story can have. So that's our passion. You know, Christ used storytelling as a model.
So I think it's still fairly effective today. But the story I can only imagine, we didn't know anything about us. You know, when I hear those words, I can only imagine the jingle went through our head.
We knew what that was. We had just come off doing the movie Woodlawn with Jon Voight, Sean Astin. Great story.
Great movie. We learned a lot. We learned that marketing is really important when we do a movie. Just regardless of how great of a story it is. So we really embarked on a journey to find a story that had some recognition already out there to kind of like, you know, cheat the marketing.
Right. So we did the usual looked at books that had done well. Current events called out to all of our contacts and friends. A friend at one of the studios had a faith division. They kind of went through their stories that they have.
None really appealed to us. And then he kind of almost jokingly said, we used to have the rights to that song. I can only imagine. But we gave up on that.
So we gave that back. But they had it for like seven years, wrote scripts and everything. So we were just really intrigued by just when they said, I can only imagine like right away, my mind goes to that jingle and knowing that that song. So we met with Bart and kind of heard him tell his story because the scripts that were already written, they didn't feel like, you know, like theatrical, like, right.
But sitting with Bart and hearing him tell his story, you know, we all tell stories, maybe like you guys last night, like, hold on, what did you say about? So you wrote that song, I can only imagine, which we all know, and we all only know it from you. You sold it to Amy Grant, like, how did that work?
And he did. And they were hoping that she would release it and make it a hit. And then on the CD cover, I think that's what they were back then, it would say, you know, the writers, mercy me.
And that would help continue to launch their career. But she was in a position with her personal life where they just couldn't release that song at the time. And Bart, he's very persistent, release it, release it. And you know, Amy Grant felt like God really told her that this is his story.
We had to give it back. And the rest is kind of history. I believe that that song, I think Bart would say the same thing. It was blessed from God. So regardless of who the singer was, regardless of who the filmmakers were, God was going to get that message across to a lot of people. I mean, it's an incredible story. And I think the, like you said, the impact speaks for itself.
There's not, I don't think there's any Christian alive in America today that doesn't know that song or hasn't heard that song at some point. So you said that they had released the film rights and they didn't have the rights to it. So was it your idea to do that movie? Can you take credit for that? I just saw John Irwin in the hallway who's our director and creative and brilliant mind behind these projects.
So no, cause he might walk through the door here, but I love John. I love his ability to tell stories, but as you guys know, it's always a collaborative effort and including people watching it like that's the hardest part. You know, people have to take a risk when they go to a movie theater and there's 14 movies showing and there's Spider-Man and all these big powerful movies. And there's this one from Christian producers and they have to decide, are we going to risk our 50 bucks taking the family on that Christian movie?
So we're always thankful and we all, it's a collaborative effort to get people to even watch these stories. Yeah. And the movie, I can only imagine, you know, when you talk about people taking the risk and watching it, it's very special in the life of our church. I mean, as out of all of the movies, I, Dr. John, you want to talk a little bit about why that movie matters so much to us at Clearview? Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, we went to see it of course, and then it was about having a show at our church and that's when John came on board.
Yeah. So we got the, well, it was, it was funny because we were moving into our new building at the time. It was 2017, 2018 is when we officially moved in and we were making the decision, do we want to go with projectors, high powered projectors, or do we want to get LED walls? Now, right now, churches have LED walls.
There's LED walls just in the hallway here. But at the time in like 2017, 2018, that was like really a huge deal. It was a huge investment and it was something that we had to get our leadership on board with. And they did, they were very supportive and they were like, okay, we're going to make it. And it was, we were some, we were really, really proud of. And so we wanted to celebrate and bring the church in together and say, Hey guys, we did this together.
This is us going forward. We're going to show a movie. And it was, I can only imagine that was the movie we showed.
That's right. I remember calling in and we've got to get this right. So we got to get that right. And then yeah, we lit up the stage real nice. Now you have a bat line.
You just give me a call. We'll take care of that. But the thing was, here's, here's the thing why that movie was special to me.
And I think to all of us, cause we've talked about this before. I was, I remember sitting in the booth, watching the movie, like it, like it's gets to the point where like you're running things and you're getting all the tech, right. But then everything's running. You can just kind of sit back and actually watch it. And I remember watching it and being like, this is actually, this is actually good. This is a really great movie. And I say that because a lot of people, when they watch Christian movie that we're on a Christian podcast, so we have to say, Oh, all Christian movies, they're good. But you know, there's always that stigma about Christian movies.
These are cheesy. These are not real movies. And I remember seriously, we've had this discussion.
I remember watching that movie and being like, this actually is a good film. Yes. Yeah. And it makes me kind of sad.
Maybe you can kind of speak to that. Why don't people think that about all Christian movies? Why aren't Christian movies hitting that mark? Yeah.
They don't think that because all Christian movies are not great, right. Which is, you know, it's frustrating, right? Cause you know, we serve a pretty creative God. We should have the advantage on a lot of these projects. Part of it is, you know, finances, right? We need people to, you know, get behind these projects. Part of it is you need to get the right team involved.
Also through John's leadership. They have, we have this great desire to embrace and begin our mission field on set. So we want the best to be on set at all aspects, whether it's sound, lighting, cameras, talent. Cause we believe that our strong faith in God we're committed to that. And we, you know, we get together every morning, every night that we're strong enough to be the influence on the others as opposed to allow their maybe traditional antics, you know, be a negative influence on us. So that being said, we're able to gather the best in all areas and that's a commitment for us.
And I think it does show talent on screen is definitely from an eyeball that we receive that we, when we recognize a high level of talent, it makes it easier for us to even invite people. So maybe at your church to be able to say, Hey, the next Dennis Quaid movie, we're going to go ahead and show that that's a difference maker. Some people will come just because of that. And we don't care.
That's kind of like a Trojan horse. Like the story is there. We just want to get people in the room, watch the movie and hopefully the story itself will have that impact.
Dr. Shaw, I know that's something that's on your heart as well is that the world has so much that they can claim. And for a long, long, long time, media has been one of those huge ones where it's like, you know, Christians, you do your thing, stick to your preaching, stick to your hymn books. We will handle the media. And it's high time that Christians take that back and say, no, like you said, we serve a very creative God and we belong in this creative space.
In fact, we should be the most creative. Right. Well, I went to Tocqueville Falls College, which is kind of a dear to us, I guess now, because both of us grew up in a Christian missionary Alliance. Yeah. CMA denomination. Really? I didn't know that. I knew you did, but I didn't know you grew up in CMA. I've attended for the past 20 years. Wow.
That's awesome. And Tocqueville Falls College is a CMA school and they had a broadcast journalism program. And so dad wanted me to go to a Christian school to get some foundation.
And I went there and I said, you know, I don't want to go in ministries. I'm going to find the most secular field they have here. And it's journalism.
And so I got into that, but thank God, because that's where I learned the importance of impacting the culture with media. Yeah. Yeah.
And what your heart is about. It is, it's communication. It's and media has changed, right?
That's what I love about NRB. It literally stands for national religious broadcast. It was radio, what, like 80 years ago or something. And that was forefront.
That was like daring back then. Right. And now you have podcasters here. You have all sorts of media filmmakers, TV radio shows still you know, Christ taught with story.
That's how he communicated. And I feel like we still have to be in the art of storytelling, which again, in today's world, that could be podcasts. It could be radio show.
It could be TV movies. But, and we also have these amazing stories that exist in with, with faith elements to it. And we just, and I just know when we decide on story, we love to find ones that have like on ramps for people in no matter where they're at in their journey to be able to say, I can kind of relate to that. Like I can only imagine I can, I can relate to having a father that is, you know, you know, whether it's abusive or not how God designed fathers to be.
And that's hard for a lot of people. So we try to find these on ramps for people to jump into the story. And then really the best way we can describe it as Trojan horse, the gospel and the truth into the story where you're empathetically following these characters through. And before, you know, it, it, it has an impact somewhere the Holy Spirit takes it. I love that it's up to their heart and different people, different parts of that story.
We'll, we'll grab that. I love that. Dr. Shaw, you shared some things like that in our church before about things like, you know, having a cultural mandate and being the salt and light in the culture. That's very much your heart. And I love the language of God being a creative God.
You know, he, as believers ought to be the most creative people. Joe, was movies always the goal? Do you want to talk a little bit about what led you there?
Yeah, I wish I could say yes, just living the dream. But, uh, I grew up in this orphanage, uh, couldn't afford college. So enlisted in the air force, did six years there, uh, got a finance degree and did finance for 10 years.
Wow. My youth pastor, when I was, uh, living at this orphanage, we went to public school and local church and my youth pastor had a desire for film. So somewhere along the way, he's probably like 25 years old. So finally he got the, uh, the courage to drive to Hollywood, not knowing a soul dragged his wife and kid kind of had that Noah moment where I'm going to Hollywood. I feel like that's what God has drawn me to be. And for almost 20 years, he just worked in Hollywood, worked his way up and worked on top shelf films from Hollywood, polar express stuff, but he just had desire kind of got burned out on traditional Hollywood stories, but had the desire to tell, you know, why I say our stories, just, you know, faith, inspirational stories. And, uh, so I was a finance guy. I was encouraging him.
Well, surely there are stories out there and we can probably find the money. So, uh, that's what led to us working on Woodlawn together. And then I can only imagine. So I'm glad you bring that up because that's, that, that's a, that's a great lead into what I was going to ask a lot of people. They hear that you, like you produced, I can only imagine you were the producer on that film. When I think about people who make a film, I'm thinking about the director.
He's the one telling people what to do. He's the one telling, they're working with the actors, making sure the light is right. What does a producer do on a film?
And did your finance degree? I'm sure that helped them. Yeah, they do everything else. There's really a from the top, like you said, there's a director and think of them as the overseeing all of the creative side of things. And then the producer, which is usually, you know, end up being a team of producers. They see the, the technical side of production. They see the business side of it, the marketing side.
So really it's funny, like my role was really heavily on the business side. So I can actually pause when we get to set, because like I just did a year of work to get to set. So we have funding, we have everything ready to go. We, we filmed for six to eight weeks and then I really get busy again after we leave set. Right. You shot that movie in eight weeks. Yeah. I think it was a 32 day shoot, if I remember correctly, something like that. Yeah. That's a fantastic turnaround for a film.
Well, that's the, you know, the two years leading up to the, you plan out every single moment of every single day. And it shows though, it shows because like I said, that movie definitely among Christian movies. And I would say even among just films stood out, it elevated the standard.
I feel like for sure. Well, I appreciate you saying that, you know, John and Andy Irwin are brilliant creatives and they work great together and their oil and water is so funny to, to watch the brothers. So they, they, they worked like brothers should work. But they, they did a phenomenal job of casting it and just being the creative leads on it. And then our role is really to support them and insulate them from all the noise and just allow them to stay in their creative minds. That's really incredible.
So brothers, they're just like the Kendrick brothers. It's funny. There are. Yeah. Well, I w I think the reason for that is there's few people you can trust in life brothers, no matter what you can at the end of the day, it's yeah, I can, can get along.
You got to work it out. I don't imagine. I don't imagine that pun intended, that anybody is watching the show and doesn't know what movie we're talking about, but for those who are watching, who may not, it's the story of the lead singer from mercy me. The way he wrote that song, like you said, and sold, and he was actually on set for some of the filming. Do you want to just kind of talk about that?
Sure. Bart Miller, obviously a brilliant guy and a heart like no other. And I can, can, can vouch for that. I love, I love Bart and his ministry and his passion for just, you know, using his gifts to get the story out. But I, I think Bart will be okay sharing this story.
You know, he was on set as much as he could really just to absorb it. Also, you know, once you kind of hand over your story to the directors, they kind of take charge of it. So it's kind of surreal for him, right? They're making a movie about me. That's a strange thing.
That's a weird feeling. I bet. And you don't, you don't know the success that it may or may not have. Right.
So you're just hoping and praying about my life, but nobody wants to look back and go, wow. Just had no idea. I can imagine. But emotionally, there's, you know, a scene in the movie where, you know, I think it's the one where, the actor of bark is hit in the head by his father with a plate throws at him and bark goes, you know, storming out the front door, just like you should. And then Dennis Quaid playing his dad really, it crushed him, but he just did that to his own son, like instant guilt and kind of got down on his knees and kind of absorbed that, that guilt that he was feeling and Bart, you know, in real life, he was out the door. Like he, he, he described his dad as a monster. So he never thought that like the human side of his dad, that he might have felt bad for what he did.
And you know, like a lot of men, not great at communicating that. So Bart, you know, he, he, he just had to leave set for a while and drive around and really just you know, I think, just think that through process that, and and I think that comes out in the story also because the actors saw that and they knew that this is an emotional story for Bart still at this day, you know, 20, 30 years later. And that's a heavy scene, you know, it's somewhere, it's somewhere like right in the middle of the movie, you know, it's, it's in one of those like sort of awkward places where you feel like that's sort of a climactic moment, but there's still a lot of movie left. But the way that it kind of turns around at that scene, I think we talked about this last night at dinner, that scene is what, for me, I was like, it was good.
And I was like, this is a great film. You know, Dr. Shaw, any encouragement for people who are listening, who are like, you know, I want to be able to do this and Joe, same to you, anybody who's listening, who wants to be able to produce movies, tell stories creatively in a Christian sphere. For me, it was growing up being a pastor's kid, you know, we, you know, in India, so we had to improvise. So everything was, you know, dad had a projector, so we would make it, you know, as, as creative as possible.
And when the Jesus film came to India, my brother and I, a couple of us were taking him to the villages, you know, putting up a sheet at night and the whole village of, you know, 200 people would show up and watch. So that was always part of my system. This is who I am. And then coming to Toccoa and wanting to do the most secular degree, God has a sense of humor. He put me right back in it. And look today, I am, you know, not only pastoring a church, you know, teaching in seminary, but also media. That's right.
Because that heart to impact the culture never went away. Wow. Right.
And I don't know, I believe maybe the same thing you've... Yeah. I believe, you know, it's interesting. We live in a timeframe where from a technical standpoint, anybody can go out and shoot a video and, you know, make a movie, edit together.
My kids can do a brilliant job of that. The lost art is like the storytelling part, the creative part. So where I always encourage, and it's got to be careful sitting next to a pastor here, but I feel like the art of understanding our own testimony, our own story, I feel it's kind of a lost art.
Right. And when I was a child, we were kind of taught like when was the day you accepted Christ and where were you, but there's so much more to that journey. So I highly encourage people to understand your own story.
We all have one. And when you can make the connection between all the God stories, so you read the Bible and you really get an insight on how God operates. And then we kind of reflect on our own journey and we can kind of see what God was here in these moments of my life, whether I was obedient or really aware at the time. So to be able to share your own story to others gives you really the initial step to be able to take someone else's story and be able to share that with an audience. What you'll find many times is if that is true, then it will resonate with somebody.
Somebody out there will say, huh, because those universal year a hundred percent, right. Cause those universal truths speak to all of us. Jesus' words, transcend, you know, my version of storytelling or your version of storytelling. There is the story and being able to tap into that. I mean, I, I really appreciate that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Joe, thank you so much for being on the show today. Any upcoming projects that you can share with us? Let's see. We're always working on a different ones.
We're always trying to get funding for them. So at this point, there's a great story about a girl named, I guess I can say this Kelly Masters, which won't mean much to a lot of people, but now as you Google her, first female NFL agent. Okay. So what I love about her godly story is, you know, Hollywood has their definition of a woman today. I guess even that can be confusing for them, but they have their definition, right? But we also have our strong definition of what a godly woman is. And Kelly represents that.
And and she still, you know, basically took on the most masculine energy in the world and became the first female NFL agent. So it's a beautiful story. Can't wait for everybody to.
So it's a film. It'll be nice. Very cool. Love it.
Yes. Excited to hear more about that. Joe, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's lots of great stuff happening here at NRB. Thank you so much for tuning into the clear view today show. Thanks to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
Thank you. Don't forget that you can subscribe to our show on iTunes. If you want to re listen or share it with a friend and you can always support us financially at clear beat today show.com. Lots more NRB content coming your way the rest of this week. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on cleary today.
