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Thank you to Le Bleu for sponsoring this episode. Now, let's start the show. Hey, what's going on Clearview Today family?
John here. Just wanted to stop in and let you know before we start the show that today we're taking a break from our regularly scheduled programming. A couple of weeks ago, Dr. Shaw was able to be on The Alex McFarland Show, The Alex McFarland Podcast. So just want to give a big thank you to Alex and his entire team for making that happen. We're actually going to have Alex on our show here in a few weeks, so make sure you guys stick around for that. But we're just going to go ahead and air that episode today. That's our bonus Friday episode. We love you guys, and we'll see you next week back on Clearview Today. Welcome to the program.
Alex McFarland here. In all of our events, publishing, and broadcasting, we talk about the Bible, the authority of God's Word. We also use the term—many of you will know this word, but we'll unpack it today—the inerrancy of Scripture.
Now the word inerrant means without error. And part of the reason that we feel a need to restate the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is because I feel like the church in America and many individual Christians, very often many younger Christians, they need to be taught what every generation, I think, is responsible to restate, that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible does not merely contain the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God. And the Bible is authoritative in our lives, and there's a fixed nature to God's revelation. Well, to help us understand this, Dr. Abaddon Shah is at the Piedmont Divinity School, which is part of Carolina International University, and he's an author. Two books that I very much appreciate. One is Changing the Goalposts of New Testament Textual Criticism. We'll talk about what that is. And then also the question in one of his books, can we recover the actual text of the New Testament?
But we're talking about God's Word, the authority, the trustworthiness of the Bible. Dr. Abaddon Shah, thanks for making time to be with us. But even more importantly, thank you for your contribution to Christian academics and helping people become stronger in their faith.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the show. And by the way, this is pretty awesome for me to be sitting across and talking to you. Years ago, I brought my students to come to one of your conferences, the apologetics conferences, and they loved it.
They loved every bit of it, but they especially enjoyed hearing you. And so it's great for me to be sitting across and talking to you about a subject that I'm passionate about, but I know you have been for a long time. Well, to God be the glory, to God be the glory.
And, you know, thanks for mentioning the Truth for a New Generation conferences. You know, even as you and I speak, I'm packing the car to go to South Carolina. We've got a walkthrough this week of the Coliseum in Myrtle Beach because we're renting the Myrtle Beach Convention Center. It can seat 9,000 people, and we're planning a big, big apologetics extravaganza for the fall of 2025. We need to get you down there to do a session on the Bible, but we'll get into that.
And folks, stay tuned to Alex McFarland.com for information on that. But Dr. Shah, let's start out. Talk to us about what you do, what you teach, and how you devoted yourself to the proclamation and defense of God's Word. So I teach New Testament and Greek, of course, at Piedmont Divinity School, part of Carolina University. And my dissertation is in the field of New Testament textual criticism. And when I began this, this journey, this is back in 2000, a scholar by the name of Bart Ehrman was really making some waves, but it was mostly among other scholars, or you would go to an ETS and you would hear something about the orthodox corruption of nature.
And so that was the big deal. And then in 2005, he wrote his book, Misquoting Jesus, which took something that so-called scholars were discussing in seminars or in colloquiums to all of a sudden, the man on the street is talking about how the church created the words of Jesus. And this is simply nothing but a man-made book. And so what was supposed to be my dissertation on Ehrman's orthodox corruption of scriptures, this scholarly work that came from Oxford University, all of a sudden, everybody seems to know about Bart Ehrman. And so I had to really step back and say, okay, how do I now approach this?
Because it's no longer just for a few text critics. This is for all of us. And so that is the essence of my dissertation. I want to reiterate how influential that was. In a way, I kind of hate to bring out his name and give him any undue PR. But on a popular level, he really did make an impact. I well remember that book, Misquoting Jesus, because a lot of college students, as I was on the road speaking, Dr. Shaw, there were many students and they were radically shaken.
And many, I would say to this day, the ex-vangelical movement, meaning people that have walked away from the Christianity they once professed, there's still this ripple effect of atheism and criticism. And Bart Ehrman was a part of that. Let me say this. Prior to Misquoting Jesus, there was the book, The Da Vinci Code. Do you remember that book? Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code. Yes. Yeah.
And this is 20 years ago. I was working for a man named James Dobson and I was charged with putting together focus on the family's response to The Da Vinci Code and to script a lot of radio shows. Interestingly, during the Dan Brown Da Vinci Code movement, one of the critics of that movie has been Bart Ehrman. Bart Ehrman. Right. Yeah.
And Bart Ehrman, there were a number of people that were on the liberal side that were saying, no, wait a minute. The New Testament was written by apostles who had seen the risen Jesus. Here's my question.
You can't have it both ways. Either you affirm the Bible or you deny the Bible. I affirm the Bible, but let me ask you this. In your opinion as a scholar, how trustworthy is the Bible and specifically the New Testament? Oh, my goodness. Wow.
100 percent. I mean, you can trust the word of God. The Bible says very clearly, 2 Timothy 3 16, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, which is it's the breath of God and hence the corollary doctrine that if it is the breath of God, then God doesn't make mistakes. Hence, scripture is inerrant. It is derived from the understanding that it is the breath of God. So when Ehrman or those like him say, you know, textual criticism demolishes inerrancy.
No, it does not. That is based on our conviction that it is the word of God. And hence we believe in inerrancy. Now, we can always talk about how time and again so-called contradictions have been proven to be wrong. But even from a very different angle, which is my subject, which is textual criticism, when we're discussing so-called problems in the text, we're really talking about six to eight percent, really, that may be an issue of should we go with this reading over this reading. But if you read Ehrman, it seems like the Bible is just riddled with textual variants that absolutely make no sense. And there is no longer any hope of returning to the original text. But then he will also qualify and say, well, that's not what, you know, what I really mean.
And then he will say it. But the reader is left with the impression that this book doesn't work. The Bible cannot be the word of God. It is just full of riddles and problems and riddled with errors. We've got to take a brief break. Folks, stay tuned.
We'll continue with Dr. Abaddon Shah. Can you trust the Bible? Is it the word of God? And is what we have, what was originally written? We believe, yes. We'll talk about this more after this brief break.
Welcome back to the program. You know, one of my favorite verses, John 10, 35, Jesus said, the scripture cannot be broken. We're talking about the trustworthiness of the Bible, the authority of scripture.
We believe that, yes, the Bible is God's word. You can trust it. And that word, the content says you must be born again. I hope you've done that.
By the way, on our website, alexmcfarland.com, there is a tab. What does God say about my relationship with him? And if you've never trusted Christ, if you wonder, is this real? I mean, is God even relevant to my life? There's not only in this book, it's a free downloadable PDF, and more than a quarter million people have gotten this book and either download it, What Does God Say?, or we'll send you a copy at alexmcfarland.com.
Yes, you can know God, and that begins with trusting Jesus as your Savior. And someone I believe God is using in a great way is Dr. Abaddon Shah. By the way, before we resume the conversation, Dr. Shah, would you give your website where people can find you online? Yes, absolutely. So my website is abaddonshah.com. Wonderful.
Well, I highly recommend. And not only are you serving the Lord in academics, you're a pastor as well. Tell us about your church. So we've been here. I've been pastoring Clearview Church since 1999.
So it's coming up 25 years. And God has really blessed the ministry here. Our church is growing. We're about to enter into our new sanctuary. We have built our expanded worship center.
So God is really doing some amazing things. But our focus has been apologetics. And that's why I admire you and have followed your ministry for quite some time. Because that is at my heart is to help people know that they what they believe about Christ and Christ being the only way truth and life or the Bible being the unearned inspired word of God. They can stand on that and they can they can base their life on those truths.
Amen. And brother, I applaud you for bringing biblical worldview and apologetics into your pulpit ministry. How do people respond to it? Do do your parishioners embrace this kind of content? Oh, yes, I think that gives me a unique edge because my father was a pastor. He he he was a pastor in India, passed away in 2021, came from a Muslim background and worked with the Billy Graham Crusade for some time.
He was a translator for Akbar Abdul Haq when he came to India. And so I grew up in a Christian environment. I grew up with a dad who was who was not scared of anybody. I mean, he would go in the most Muslim populated populated area and he would preach and people somehow didn't do anything to him. He just had that courage in him. And I wouldn't say I'm anything like him, but I have a little bit of that spirit. So I I do what my dad told me years ago.
It's a son. You need to speak up and say things that people may not feel comfortable saying. So say it that Christ is the only way truth and life. Say it that Christianity is not just like any other religion and the Bible is not like the holy book of the Christians. And everybody has said, don't say it. Talk about how unique Christ is and what the Bible is all about.
It is the only word of God. I mean, talk about that. So I have made that a part of my ministry here.
And it's it's unique, it's different, and it's making an impact. Amen. Wonderful.
Wonderful. You know, before the break in that first segment, we were talking about Bart Ehrman, who famously said that there were, quote, 100,000 errors in the Bible. Right. Now, you and I know there there are among the thousands of New Testament manuscripts, what are sometimes called variant readings. But a variant reading, that is not an error, is it? Right.
No, not at all. Variant reading pretty much says that there are manuscripts, maybe two, maybe two hundred, they may differ at that point. They may have a different reading. And textual criticism is the discipline that helps us get back to know which one is the correct original reading. Yes, there are doctrines that may be impacted, but the key statement is that no critical doctrine is impacted by textual variants, unlike what Ehrman has said for years, that the doctrine of the Trinity or the deity and humanity of Christ and all these doctrines were just a mess. And textual variants reflect that. And that is not the case.
Just not the case. Now, the critical doctrines, what are they? The theological non-negotiables of Christianity, what might they be? I would start out with the Trinity, the Father, Son, Spirit, three, and yet one. Of course, I would talk about the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. I would talk about a real heaven and real hell.
Talk about the virgin birth. Of course, the resurrection is a very critical doctrine. And so none of these variants are impacting those doctrines.
And even if they're due at a particular place, we have plenty more places that have that doctrine clearly explained. So to say that Christianity stands or falls on textual variants is just a big lie. Yeah. Doesn't it seem like in every generation, Satan launches some formidable attack on the Bible?
Absolutely. And this one that came, it came by someone who claimed, and of course he did go to Moody. And so it was almost like, oh, one of these Christians finally woke up and realized that his faith was built on lies. And so it really impacted some people because they said, oh, wait. And so we talked about the ex-evangelicals movement, and it's coming because of these lies. And so, yes, every generation has their foes.
And of course, and of course, Bart Ehrman has done his work for a generation, I would say. When you say textual criticism, what is that? Because the word critical, it might sound like being opposed or negative on what God's word said, but what is textual criticism? As you mentioned just a few moments ago, that there are many Greek manuscripts, many Latin manuscripts, many Syriac manuscripts. So there are many manuscripts. So there are variants in these manuscripts. And so the purpose of textual criticism is to compare these variants based on external evidence, which is just a manuscript evidence, and also internal evidence, looking at the place of that variant in its context and scribal habits and coming to the conclusion which one is the right variant, based on external and internal evidence.
So that is the whole purpose. And prior to, I would say, the 60s, New Testament textual criticism and inerrancy kind of went hand in hand because the belief was, at least I would say, a majority of the scholars. Not everybody always believed that, but at least they believed there was an original text. And so how do we get back to the original text? Textual criticism helps us in the process.
But now, I believe, with the coming of postmodernism, it is claimed, not just by Ehrman, but you have people like Eldon Epp and David Parker and Keith Elliott, who just passed away. These are text critics. That there is no such thing as the original text and that there were many texts or now any text can be taken as authoritative because it was authoritative for that scribe or that community or that period in history.
And to me, that is very problematic because if there is no original text, then where does authority come from? Yeah. So authority is what you make it to be. Yeah.
Hold that thought. Where does authority come from? And even a related question, is there any truth? Does truth exist? Folks, stay tuned.
This is Alex McFarland along with our guest, Dr. Abaddon Shah. The Bible, can you trust it more after this brief break? You know, in Matthew 24, 35, Jesus said, heaven and earth will pass away. My words will never pass away.
The support for scripture by the only man that ever rose from the dead, Jesus himself. Welcome back to the program, Alex McFarland. By the way, you can listen again, AlexMcFarland.com, plus all of the places you get digital content or podcasts. Please like us on social media and please spread the word about the reality of the biblical worldview. Dr. Abaddon Shah, his website, AbaddonShah.com.
By the way, also you can find him at ClearviewToday.com. Two books, Changing the Goalposts of New Testament Textual Criticism and Can We Recover the Text of the New Testament. First of all, thank you for your work. And let me just, before we resume the conversation about the Bible, I want you, if you would, to give a challenge to young people listening, Dr. Shah, because Christian academics is ministry too. And there just might be some young people listening and they are gifted academically and they're disciplined. Maybe there's a call to earn that terminal degree, to earn that doctorate, and to serve God in the classroom and in academics. Speak about that calling, if you would, for a moment.
Absolutely. So I grew up in a pastor's home and, you know, and you see the struggles and you see how dad worked hard and he was also a professor at a biblical seminary. And so at first I kind of sort of ran from that call until, you know, God has a way of getting hold of you. And he did. And when I realized where God had called me, I knew this was life for me.
And this is back in the mid nineties and I went all in. And what has helped me tremendously is the gifts that God has given me, the gift to study, the gift to take complex doctrines and breaking it down. And it's not me, it's God who's given those gifts. So my challenge to my students every time in class is, listen, God has given you gifts, use them for the kingdom of God.
They're given for a reason. If you have a mind that can think and take complex doctrines and explain it to people and stand for the truth and recognize the errors, the logical fallacies, stand up and speak out because people need that. And so I would encourage listeners, if you're in that stage in life and questioning whether or not you should, please answer that call and follow God. Amen. Well said.
You know, when I think about textual criticism and I've debated skeptics and I know you as well, as well, you know, very often I think a skeptical world, they take the methodology of man and they, the Bible is guilty until proven innocent. You know, it's like, let's say you take a child and their favorite food is cotton candy. And you know, you say, I'm going to feed you Brussels sprouts, green beans, and spinach.
And tell me which you think is the most like cotton candy. Well, none of them, because they have presupposed that none of the vegetables is going to be as sweet as candy. Well, it's like with skeptical criticism, it's almost like, as Gary Habermas, a friend and colleague, we were talking about the fact that no matter what you do, the Bible will be guilty until proven innocent. And that's just not the way to approach. That's not the objective way to approach the question of the Bible and its content. That's right.
No, not at all. In fact, I find it quite interesting that we will subject the Bible to all such criticism, but we won't try that with a Quran or we would try that with a Hindu book because we know there will be a backlash. So Bible is often subjected to scorn and criticism and all kinds of things. And because we believe that the Bible is the word of God, it stands. It's like Spurgeon would say, it's like a lion doesn't need defending.
It fights for itself. Our purpose is simply to help people know, Hey, listen, these are the reasons. These are the reasons the Bible is not in there. For example, inerrancy in my book, I wrote, inerrancy as a theological construct is not on trial. Next, a loss of text does not negate inerrancy any more than the loss of an arm or a leg negates the personhood of any individual.
It only places the burden on text critics to research and retrieve the original text. So my job is really not to prove, Oh, the Bible is the word of God. It is the word of God. My job is to say, this is how we get to the original text. And it, it, it, it stands on its own two feet.
And, and let's, let's be clear. When we're talking about under, you know, can we ascertain the original text? That's really more of a question for the New Testament than the Old Testament. Isn't it? Yes.
Yes. Because we're dealing with variant readings and, and because, and in itself, it proves that the Bible was not created by the church. Because if I was creating the Bible, I would very quickly do what has been done for other holy books, which is wipe out all the other manuscripts and just clean out the, the whole field and just have one text. But no, it copied and people copied it for their uses and they passed it down. And anytime you copy, there will be errors that may come in and there will be textual variants that come in.
And so really what we're talking about here is in its essence, it stands. Where there are variants, there's plenty of evidence to say, this is where it goes. And so what people like Ehrman and others have said, Oh, look, the Bible was created by the church.
To the contrary, having variants actually proves that the church did not control the process. Right. So let me ask you about canonicity. Yes. I mean, there are the individual books. Are the 27 New Testament books what God intended to be the New Testament canon? Absolutely.
Absolutely. And definitely not the manuscript that was discovered or brought to light by the German text critics or they found in the library. By the way, that text has been around for over a hundred years. It's just that this little scrap from three centuries later showed up and it simply says that that manuscript was there earlier, but it was not part of the canonical works.
We can, my good friend, John Mead has written a book on the canon lists. Again, those things tell us that the church had a set of books. Yes, there were some on the fringes, but overall based on authority, based on apostolicity, based on receptivity, based on spiritual value, the church did not say, okay, these books will be canonized. The church simply recognized the ones that were already considered canonized.
And those were the 27. The Old Testament is different issue. New Testament, it was not as difficult and these Gnostic gospels and all that came much later. So what would be, we've only got a few minutes and we've got to visit again, but to the churches and even the estimated 120 million adult Christians in America, what would you like for our view of the Bible to be? I would definitely say, for years we have been saying, and you have been saying the importance of apologetics, and we no longer have to keep saying that. We have to believe that to understand the truth of scripture, to stand for the truth of scripture, to understand the reasons behind why we believe what we believe. It's no longer enough to say, oh, the preacher believes that and that's good enough for me. We have to have a reason for the hope that is within us. Why do we believe though in the deity of Christ or the full deity and full humanity of Christ? Why do we believe in the Trinity?
Why do we believe in a literal heaven, literal hell? All these things matter, especially in our culture today in America. These doctrines do matter and it's important for us to educate ourselves and teach it to our young generation. I would really challenge people in America to remember that.
Yeah. Folks, all the great revivals in history, they involve prayer, they involve repentance, they involve evangelistic urgency. But when the Spirit of God moves in a culture, there is a renewed emphasis on the Word of God. Dr. Abaddon Shaw, how much I appreciate you being with us today, but even more so, I appreciate the work that you're doing to call people to scripture. Folks, in John 17, 17, Jesus said of what we call the Bible, Thy word is truth. You can believe it. You can depend on it. I hope you'll stand for it. Stay bold and defend the faith as our ministry endeavors to help people do. Blessings to you all and may God be praised for giving us His very Word.
