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Fun fact, no. I have to make my own with McDonald's Sprite, and you guessed it, Texas Pete. I am genuinely horrified to hear that.
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Every single purchase you make using that promo code helps us here at The Clearview Today Show and gets you one step closer to the purest, most refreshing water you've ever tasted. Thank you to Le Bleu for sponsoring this episode. Now, let's start the show. Hey, what's going on, guys? John here from The Clearview Today Show. We just wanted to let you know that today's episode is actually a special episode. We were scheduled to do our Wyoming travel episode, but we're actually going to push that to tomorrow so we can talk about Tony Evans and his recent announcement of his resignation from Oak Cliff Fellowship Church. We're just going to talk about this because it's happening right now and we feel like it could do a lot of people a lot of good, so we will go ahead and talk about that. We're going to start that show now, and then tomorrow we'll be back to our regularly scheduled program.
That's right. Our hearts desire is to be helpful to you and keep you informed, so stay tuned. Lots of great information coming your way, and like John said, we'll be in Wyoming a couple days from now, so make sure you guys tune in for that. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
I'm John Galantis. You can find us online by visiting ClearviewTodayShow.com, or if you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com. That's right, and we want you to help us keep the conversation moving forward by supporting the show. You can share it online with your friends and family. Leave us a good five-star review on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from.
We're going to leave a couple of links in the description so you can do just that, and we are here live today in the Clearview Today studio with Dr. Abbadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism. Dr. Shah, welcome to the show. It's good to be here.
Yes. Welcome to your own show. Like, welcome. Well, I mean- Come in and sit for a little while. Really, you guys are the ones who run the show. You're the ones who keep it going with all the information and the verse of the day and the gripe vines and all these things. These are really coming from their minds, okay?
It's not me. So I come in sort of like the expert who talks about certain theological apologetics, current events, history. That's where I show up. That's what I was going to say. If we weren't sitting on 25 years' worth of golden content, we wouldn't have much to talk about. Well, thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for saying that. People get sick of the million dollars, but you got on Vaudeville.
Yeah, that only goes so far. But I think that's what makes our show unique is that it's a combination of funny lightheartedness, but also serious topics. That's what we want to talk about today is- Some people don't- Oh, go ahead.
Go ahead. I was just going to say, that's what we want to talk about today is kind of a serious topic. Yeah, it is. It is. And it was something that we kind of were back and forth, but since it's happening now and there's a lesson, I think, to be learned here, we figured it was worth talking about. Yeah. Dr. Stroud, do you want to introduce what we're talking about today and maybe give us some encouragement at the top of our episode?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, encouragement is be humble. I'm encouraging you to be humble because God resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. This is 1 Peter 5 and verse 5.
It's also in James 4, and I think it's verse 6. But God resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. So be humble. That's right. That's right. Be humble.
Know who you are and just be grateful for how good God is to you. Amen. We're talking today about, maybe you've seen this circulating on social media, you've seen articles trending online, but Pastor Tony Evans stepping down from his ministry, from his lengthy time in ministry. I think he read somewhere, it was like 48 years? 48 years, yeah.
Wow. And he's stepping away from that. He cites an old sin, an old issue, but in light of that, in light of biblical standards, he's stepping back from his public ministry.
We're not sure what exactly happened here. Again, he did not specify, he just simply said it's not criminal, but he feels like because of this sin, he is no longer qualified to pastor or to preach at Oak Cliff, I think it's called Oak Cliff, a Bible fellowship, and... Oak Cliff. Yeah, Bible fellowship.
And he feels like this was the right decision, which is also what the elders encouraged him to do, is to go ahead and step down, which is, it's heartbreaking for me to hear that. Again, I don't know what that sin is that he's referring to, but I heard about Tony Evans back in the mid-90s, and that was through Nicole's dad. He knew about Tony Evans when they would go to the Cove, Billy Graham's Cove, and he would come and he would speak, and it was always very encouraging, uplifting, great teaching ministry. He came out of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Of course, he was in Dallas as well, and just a powerful ministry. And then I would listen to him every morning on my way to work, and this was when we were in Georgia. I was working at Piedmont Automotive, where they made switches that go inside cars.
The switch is made out of fiberglass, and then they have put wires and they solder it, and then BMW, GM Motors, Ford, I mean, just everybody takes those, and then they're working into their cars. But in the mornings, I would leave at 6.30, I believe it was, in the morning, and either he would come on in the morning or in the evening. I can't remember that, but that was my daily time to hear the word of God. And he wouldn't come out as Oak Cliff Bible Church pastor. He was representing Urban Alternative. The Urban Alternative, that's the name of his ministry, and I think it's still the name of his ministry.
And I loved it. I was like, wow, what a great teacher, and how beautifully he presents the word of God, and just his voice, his illustrations, everything was just so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that as well, because I know here at Clearview, we have a RightNow media account. We don't use it as much as we used to, because now we're in the point where we have our own curriculum coming out, and our Sunday school teachers are being trained. But there was a time where we were, I don't want to say reliant, but we were utilizing RightNow media, and Tony Evans was one of their big faces.
He was one of their big voices. And it's funny, because I actually thought the exact same thing. I was like, this guy really, I'm like that.
I like to use illustrations. If you can use an analogy or compare it to this illustration, it makes things click for me. I always appreciated that about his teaching, and I thought the exact same thing as you, Dr. Shaw. I was like, man, this guy's very skilled at doing that, taking a biblical theological concept and putting it in a practical way that kind of clicks for me.
Yeah. As part of some of our weekend retreats, or kind of special intensives that we offer, whether it's marriage or parenting or things like that, he's been a guest speaker in those curriculum. And yeah, same way, he does a very good job of breaking things down and kind of putting them in bite-sized pieces, and much like you do, Dr. Shaw, of kind of putting this lofty theological concept accessible to everyone.
Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite books that Tony Evans wrote is Our God is Awesome, encountering the greatness of our God. And he takes every attribute of God, and just each chapter is dedicated to an attribute.
And he does it so well, so well. And I gave it to my dad. Now, of course, my dad was a seminary-trained pastor.
He had his master's, and then he went on to get his law degree because there was no PhD in seminary in India at the time. And he loved that book. He said, can I keep it?
I was like, yeah, you can have it. And then Nicole had gifted me that book, Our God is Awesome. So I said, hey, go buy me another one because I need it in my library. Because I think when he was in America back in 2001, that he went through my library, saw that book. He said, oh, this is a great book. Do you mind if I take it? I said, no, take it.
And so I made her buy me another book. So it's very sad. Again, in today's show, when you guys brought it up, our goal is not to talk about that situation or try to guess what it was. We just have to wait and see in God's timing. And with wisdom, this will come out. And I hope it will not hurt people.
And it will not, how do I say this? It will not shame the name of Christ because that's what has happened in the past few years. It has been tragic when you see your heroes fall. But I'm praying that maybe God will warn us, those who are in ministry, whether you're in prayed ministry or you're just in a voluntary position, but you're still in ministry, that you'll be from now on, be extra careful. If somebody like him, like Tony Evans, can fall like this, whatever that fall is, none of us are out of Satan's grip. We're not, it's not that we're too small. You know what I mean?
Of course, because he's in the limelight, because he has ascended to the lofty heights that he would be brought down, but our sin is safe because the devil's not interested in small fries. You know, that's how people think. And I appreciate that you said that Dr. Shaw, because it's always tempting, especially we're, we're in a broadcast world. We produce a daily show. We have to have things to talk about.
You know, you have to produce five episodes a week. And so when things like this happen, the temptation is always there among broadcasters and journalists. Like, I got to jump on this. I got to cover this first. With us, you know, we really wanted to drive home, because we, we kind of talked about this and we talk about this whenever we do, even with, not Matt Chandler, who was the one we did last time, the pastor at the men's conference, Mark Driscoll, same thing. We were like, should we talk about this? You know, it's a discussion that the three of us have and we have as a team, because something can be learned from this, something good, some theological truth, or just a piece of wisdom can be garnered from this. Yeah. That's why we want to talk. Yeah.
Yeah. And we also talked about, who is the Scottish pastor? Oh, Alistair Begg. Alistair Begg, we talked about, and again, this is not so that we can capitalize on somebody's failure.
True. You know, the Bible is very clear on that. I'm going to read a couple of verses there to put this in the right perspective. The first one is coming from 1st Corinthians chapter 10 and verse 12. 1st Corinthians 10 verse 12. It says, therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. And that is a warning to anybody, whether you are on social media discussing this, or you are on a radio show, or you are making that as a side remark in his sermon. Be careful. Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. That's right.
It means you think you're doing great. Be careful. You may be the next one to fall. That's right. This is not our opportunity to stand up.
Right, right, right. Another passage is 1st Peter chapter 5 and verse 6. I'm sorry, verse 5 and then also verse 6. It says, yes, all of you be submissive to one another and be clothed with humility, for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Therefore, humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
So humble yourself. That's right. And another passage is James chapter 4 verse 6.
I mentioned that at the top of the show. It says, but he gives more grace. Therefore, again, the same passage is repeated. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So we just want to go ahead and frame this next few minutes as we discuss this, that we're not doing this from a place of we're better than him or this is a great opportunity for the rest of us. None of that. We're doing it with a sense of trepidation.
That's right. Satan is very crafty. His head has been crushed, but he's still around.
And he has us in his sights, in the crosshairs. I feel like we are seeing this more often, where these pastors and these religious personalities that have had ministry for years, decades even, are stepping down, stepping away from ministry. Maybe there's some moral failure involved. Maybe we're not privy to that information, or they're stepping away from the platform that they had.
Is that happening with greater frequency now, or has that always been the case and it's just more reported now? I don't know. I don't know.
It's hard to say. Things like this, again, we don't know what the sin is in Tony Evans' situation, but we've heard from different ones, it usually has something to do with the opposite sex. That's what we have seen with other ministry leaders who have fallen. And again, we want to clarify that. This is not a knowledge yet.
We don't know what it is that happened with Dr. Tony Evans. But again, we're talking about others. You're just noticing the pattern overall. The overall pattern has been marital infidelity, somewhere they crossed the line. Did they cross the line all the way? Was it a true adulterous relationship, or was it just emotions?
That's a new thing now. It was just texting that was inappropriate, or we were having lunch and we shouldn't have been doing that. But Jesus was very clear on that. He said, even if you think in your heart, you've already done it. So it doesn't matter at that point whether you had just lustful thoughts or you actually consummated that lust in some motel room or somewhere else. It doesn't matter.
But those kind of things did happen. So we've all heard of Harriet Beecher Stowe. She wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. Her brother, she came from a very ministerial family, New England family.
And her father or their father, they had many children. Their father was a prominent Puritan type preacher. Again, don't immediately think he was in the 1600s.
No, he was in the early part of the 1800s, late 17, early 18, I would say. He was a Puritan type preacher, good man, man of God. And he and his wife had several children, Harriet Beecher Stowe being one of them. And then Henry Ward Beecher was another one.
And Henry Ward Beecher had supposedly an adulterous relationship with somebody who was close to him, a friend's wife kind of thing. And it was very tragic. I mean, it hit the fan. It was everywhere. People were talking about it. I mean, this is going back to the, I think, post-Civil War maybe or pre-Civil War. I can't, I'm not quite sure.
Maybe somebody can look it up. And so those kind of things happened. And it was very tragic because it definitely impacts people. It takes away that sense of integrity and honesty that is supposed to be in the lives of God's people.
It goes away. And you see this all the time in, I would say, secular business. Again, we don't know what this undisclosed sin is, but let's say that it isn't marriage and fidelity for the sake of the illustration, right? You see this in Wall Street. I mean, it is what it is. You can still be successful. You see this in corporate America.
I mean, it is what it is. You see this even in politics as like, hey, it's kind of expected, but you can still do your job. You can still fulfill your role and not live up to a moral standard. And the church is very, very different. And it's, I feel like that's the one place where the church stands above all these other secular endeavors, is that your moral compass and your moral standing or standard really to God's word is the thing that you have to live up to, not your success, but your character. And so seeing this with Tony Evans, it is sort of a, it's sort of a sad thing, but it is also a warning for all of us because it isn't, how am I trying to say this? It isn't that we're striving not to do these things.
It's almost that the things that we are doing, let me rephrase how I'm saying it. You go ahead because I'm trying to get it right. I was just going to say, it looks like it was post-Civil War, but just slightly. No, actually it was pre.
Was it pre? 1858 is when that story hit the news. This must be an article that came out later. I'm only 1875, but this article is probably later. Yeah.
1858 is when the Brooklyn Eagle broke the story about this kind of an affair. I think what I was saying was all of us have sin in our lives, but we know that there's that line. And so the challenge I guess for us is be aware of where that line is because sin has a very funny way of moving the line or obscuring it a little bit until we've crossed it.
And even in Tony Evans' example, and I think in a lot of these examples, it's usually something that happened way back in the past. It's not like, oh, I got caught doing this yesterday and now I have to answer for it. And sin has a way of making you think that you're safe.
You do it once and you get away with it, and then you never have to face it again. And in these circles, people tend to downplay sexual sins and they say, you know, it's like any sin. You can steal or you can come into adultery. It's about the same because sin is sin in the eyes of God. And if you are referring to sin in the sense of our sin before God, yes, every sin is sin. A tiny little lie is a sin. But if you study the Bible carefully, the ramifications of sins is different.
So here's the passage. First Corinthians chapter six, verse 18 says, flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body. But he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God and you are not your own, for you were bought at a price and therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. So yes, every sin is sin. But sexual sin is against your own body. And your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
So that sin counts more. It counts far more when a man is in a position of ministry leadership. Yeah. Yeah.
Not just paid leadership, I would say any kind of leadership because now you have just disillusioned and hurt a lot of people. That's true. It has a, that's kind of what we were talking about. It has a lot bigger ramifications, a lot more impactful ramifications. I feel like sexual sin aside, because we've already said that that's a different category. I feel like people use the phrase a sin as a sin in God's eyes to downplay the more serious sins rather than viewing it as it takes the lighter sins and it elevates those in their weight. Well, it just goes against common sense.
Yeah. If I kill someone or if I lie to my coworker, there's two, I mean, there's four to say, well, you know, before God, it's just all the same. It just goes against common sense.
You know what I mean? And I don't, I guess I just don't understand the goal of it if not to just downplay very serious sins. Like if you take that off the table, what is the incentive to say every sin is equal? If it's not just to alleviate some conviction. Right. It is.
It is. It's just a smokescreen just to get out of it. And especially for somebody, you know, James talks about that. Not many of you attempt to be teachers because there is a greater judgment coming for you. Also a question that was posed just a few moments ago is should his materials still be used and referenced? And again, that's a big one.
How do we now move forward? Because that has happened in the past where people in ministry did something wrong and now they're the, what do you do with their books? And there's tons and like, and it sounds kind of like a joke, but there's tons of bookstores who just genuinely don't have material because so many of their bestsellers are coming off the shelves because Christians react. And I don't, and I'm not saying they react and they shouldn't. I don't know.
I genuinely don't know. Cause every time I think of, well, here's why they should take them down. I think of, well, here, here's why they don't have to. But then I think here's why they don't have to. It's like, here's some reasons they should.
It's a, it's a hard one personally from me at that point. Can I still use their research if they are a research scholar and if they're written an article, let's say on, on the movement of the antelope in the Sinai desert. I'm just making something up. Should I still use that article knowing that this person has committed adultery or they have really messed things up? I guess I can, but once I know that about the person, I will check that far more because if you're going to lie about something else right here, how do I know you're not lying about this or is this truly from you? Is it truly research? Well, all those things now question because your character doesn't make a difference.
That's a good point. I think that's a very nuanced question too, because like you said, if they wrote an article about the antelope moving, I mean that, that is a very scholarly, very research, hard facts, scientific thing to use, but that's very different from here's a devotional for your personal life. Let me explain these theological concepts to you.
Those are very different resources. It's two different worlds and I used to think this way and I know people have written in and asked like, would you use Bart Ehrman's research? It's like, well, as much as I disagree with him and as much as I disagree with his spiritual and moral character, I have to ask, is he correct in some things? If he's correct, I have, I can't search for ways to undermine it or say that he's actually incorrect. If he's correct, he's correct. But even then, I'll have to verify it. Now I have to verify it.
It's almost like a harsher strictness. You're constantly checking every single thing for places where that person may deviate from what we know to be true. We all sin, right? We all sin. There's nobody on this earth other than fully God, fully man, Jesus Christ, who did not sin and could not sin.
Other than that, we all sin. Do we have to, this kind of also sounds like a joke, but do you think people have to wait for the redemption? And what I mean by that is like, David committed adultery, had someone's wife put, had someone's husband put to death, but we're not chucking away the Psalms, but he also came to his redemption. Like, do you think there's a season where people are like, okay, until he gets his redemption, we're going to take his books down, save it for later.
Then his name will be cleared and we'll just bring them back. Or do you think even that's like, I don't know. I guess my question is, if you were living in the time of David and he, after all this Bathsheba incident, Psalm 51, he is passing by and he decides to stop at your home and stay the night. Will you sleep or will you stay awake? I'd probably stay awake.
He's the king, so I don't know if I can turn him away, but I'd probably just stay awake. That's a good point. That's a good point. What do you say to people who see something like this or see other leaders over the past few years that have had moral failure? And they say, see, all Christians are hypocrites. See, even the big ones, even the big name ones, this is what we've always said about Christianity and now we're being proven right. What do you say to those people? Well, if one, I will say, keep in mind, Satan is very active and very powerful. Every time I even mention the enemy, I tell people, pray for me. Pray for me. And then some people just smile and I don't pay attention to them because I'm looking for the real ones who will actually stop and pray. And if in that audience of 400 people, if even two do, pray for me, I'm happy. And I hope you all do. I hope the staff, when I say pray for me, stop and pray.
Say God, help him, protect him. Absolutely. I remember you did that in a message recently.
Yeah, I did that last Sunday. So because he's powerful, right? You know, some people have the idea that I can tell him this and I can stomp on him and all that. I'm like, no, no, you've never been told to do that. You're simply to reject him so he will flee from you.
Right? Kind of just say, be gone. I'm done with you.
I'm headed to Christ. And now immediately start talking. Don't have a conversation with the enemy. Don't write songs about the enemy. Some famous worship churches have songs with the enemies. That's where it starts out. There's a song. I don't even mind saying it because it's public.
They put it out. My testimony by Elevation, people ask, when are we going to do that here? I was like, we're not. Satan's name is the third word in the song.
His name is mentioned before the name of Christ. It's like, no, we can't do that. So I think people don't realize how powerful that is. So stay away from him. Don't try to mess with him. Don't try to challenge him. Don't try to, you know, think you can take him on because you're saved.
And at that moment you are feeling full of the Holy Spirit and you think you can take him. Don't do that. None of that. You hide behind Christ. You stay in the word.
You stay here. You keep your sins confessed. You keep your emotions. Emotions are great. Emotions are who we are. But make sure your emotions are subjected to Christ.
They're submitted to Christ. So just know the enemy is real. And also know that our task is real because we're in the business of saving souls. We're in the business of keeping people from going to hell. We are targets.
So both those things sort of connected, yet they're very true. I think from me, like someone who works in ministry, and Ryan, I know you can speak to this as well. It helps when you have these conversations off microphone. This is not something that we say, and I'm telling you guys this with all the integrity I've got, you got to believe me. This is not something that we just say on air. This is stuff that we talk about in our text threads. We talk about this over lunch. We talk about this after the sermons.
We sit around and we talk. It helps when you have a leader who says, Hey guys, don't do stupid stuff like this. Don't fool around with women.
Don't think that you're so big that you can sneak off to some seedy place. Don't find reasons to be alone where money is. Don't do dumb stuff. And it helps because I feel like truly a lot of Christian leaders don't talk about stuff like this.
It's just assumed that the team won't do this and then everyone's shocked when it happens. Stay in the word. Pray.
Be close to your family. Don't let bitterness or fear or doubt grip your heart because those all three things are different. Bitterness when you're angry with somebody and you're refusing to forgive. Fear when you're afraid of something may happen or something may catch up with you or something in the fear in the future is going to overwhelm you.
That's fear. Doubt means you're doubting the goodness of God. You're doubting the Providence of God.
You're doubting the plan of God. All these things are not healthy because those are giving the enemy the foothold to enter into your life and your thoughts. So here's a verse I want to share in closing if that's okay. First Peter chapter five verse eight says, Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary, the devil walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Resist him steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. But may the God of all grace who called us to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen and settle you.
To him be the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you for that discussion. It's helpful for us.
Like John said, it's helpful for us sitting here in ministry, hearing us talk about these things, not just on the air, but you know, away from the microphones as well when we're sitting and talking as a team and we pray that it was helpful for you as well. Write in and let us know what you got from today's episode two five two five eight two five zero two eight. Or you can visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com. Don't forget you can partner with us financially on that same website. Scroll to the bottom, click that donate button and let us know what's coming from our community Today Show family. Lots of great content coming your way the rest of this week. Make sure you guys tune in. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on clear view today.
