Monday, April 22nd | Mark Driscoll and the James River Controversy

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We're going to leave a couple of links right there in the description so you can do just that. Today is Monday, April the 22nd. Monday. That means that our date the word today is coming from Ephesians chapter 4, verse 22. That you put off concerning your former conduct, the old man, which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

That's true. You know, the lusts of the flesh, all these things in life that tempt us and entice us. They actually end up corrupting us. That's the real power of sin, is that it comes in looking so nice and so beautiful and so tempting. And yet, from the inside out, it gets into our heart and it corrupts us. So our goal, really, as Christians, is to put off that old man.

When we say that we've been transformed into the newness of Christ, that's what it means. It's that old person that I was has to be put away. It has to be buried.

It has to be killed and buried. Paul hits every time. And he's talking to the Ephesians here because that old behavior, that old man, continues to creep in. And that's something that we all struggle with. And it's something that we're going to continue to struggle with this side of heaven. But the goal of the Christian life is that putting off the old man will become more of a habit for you. It will become easier and easier, and it will become your default choice.

Not that you won't ever struggle with sin, but the goal is that you would struggle with sin less. That's right. And if you guys want premium access to all these verses right here on the day that they air, you can do that by getting the Date the Word app. In fact, they're a partial sponsor of the show today.

You can get it for free on iPhone or Android. Every single day connects today's date to God's Word in the hope of making it more memorable for you. That's right. And, you know, it is Monday. It is Monday.

And that means it's time for what is quickly becoming one of my favorite segments. Stinking All the Small Things. All the Small Things. All the Small Things is our Monday segment. That's where we talk about some of these little things in life that God has given us to enjoy. I've been waiting to talk about this one.

I wanted to talk about it on a day where you were here and where Dr. Shaw was here, because this is something near and dear to my heart. I love when motorcycles pass me on the road. Most people hate it. But I always envision myself on a motorcycle. Like, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? Never in my life.

Okay. I have always wanted one. I've been too scared of them when I actually had the chance to ride on. And plus, also when you're a guy and your friends ride motorcycles, you've got to, like, ride, like, hugging them on the back. So I never actually got a chance to ride a motorcycle, let alone drive one.

Me neither. But now that I'm in my 30s, I'm thinking this is the perfect time. I'm thinking this is the greatest time to actually start riding a motorcycle. No, immediately no. Really? Yes, absolutely not. Would you buy one?

No. Why? Because I'm in my 30s.

I think this is the perfect time. That's a 20s purchase. Yes, yeah. And that's one thing that David has always told me, is that you ride a motorcycle when you're young and then by the time you're 30. But I feel, I genuinely feel, a lot of times, and here's my counter to that, when you see bikers, we've got a lot of bikers that are visiting our church here right now. None of them are in their 20s. Right, but they have been riding motorcycles for years. Fair, fair.

They didn't just hop on this bandwagon. But I don't feel as though there's a cutoff to being a biker. Like, I feel, and I really genuinely feel this in my heart, that I could start in my 30s. I feel like I could be a biker. No.

I've got the personality, I've got the threads. No, absolutely not. No.

I'm gonna say this with all the love and compassion and concern that I have in my heart. Uh-huh. You, no one would take you seriously. You can't mean that.

I rolled up on a motorcycle. You can't mean that. No, I've never been more sure of anything in my life. No one would take you seriously. And I say that because no one would take me seriously. Like, you and I, if we rolled up on motorcycles, people would laugh. Right. Because we're not motorcycle guys. We're kind of like music nerds and like theater guys. Right.

And radio, radio voice. We cannot pull that off. We cannot pull that off. I feel like if I rolled up to, if I rolled up to a farm in like boots and like riding on a tractor, people would be like, that guy's faking. Right. Like a country hat. Yes. Tight jeans. Yes. That reaction. Big lift kit on my truck.

Hoppy taste if you drive up on a motorcycle. I, I feel. No. I feel as though. No.

They would accept me. No, no, no. And I, and I want you to know this.

That you might feel that way, but the facts are that they will not. More than feeling it. I desire it. I want. You desire to have your feelings hurt. No, no, no, no, no, no. More than, I desire to not only drive a motorcycle, but be in the biker culture. And here's the thing. And we got, we need to go to a break.

I know that I want it because I've wanted it for so long. No, no, absolutely. Let's ask Dr. Shaw. You know, Dr. Shaw rode a motorcycle.

I do. I, I do know that he rode a motorcycle, which you guys might be surprised to know that listening to the show. He, he is a biker. He would, he would like go around the streets of India, like, and that's not the motor. That was his mouth. He was like making those sounds at the stop sign. Let us know if you think that John can pull off motorcycle culture.

If Dr. Shaw can pull it off, I feel as though I can pull it off. But, but how old was he when he pulled it off? Like 17. He wasn't in his thirties.

Yeah, he was 17. Right. Write in and let us know. And especially those of you who are in motorcycle culture, let us know his unspoken rules because my friend John here is not mine. I just want to be one of you. Two five two five eight two five zero two eight, or you can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com.

Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Hey. Hey, you. Me?

No, not you. You, listening to the Clear View Today Show. You're here right now because you love Christian talk radio and I'm a hundred percent down for that. But what if I told you that Clear View Church also produces original music?

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You can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com, or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text, 252-582-5028. That's right, and we are here once again in the Clear View Today studio with Dr. Abbadan Shah, who is a Ph.D. in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, the host of today's show, Professional Biker, maybe? Confirmed. Maybe. Confirmed. So this is 100% confirmed. I'm going to go ahead and lock that in. You beat me to it.

I'm going to have to go ahead and lock that down as 100% confirmed. Dr. Shah, you were a cyclist. You were a motorcyclist. Yes. But back in India. That is the coolest. Out of necessity. Really? Yeah.

Because you don't drive cars there through the narrow streets that were not built to have four-wheelers or four-wheel mobiles, I guess. So when we say motorcycle, was it a motorcycle or was it what you would consider like a Vespa scooter? Or was it like, would you say- No, when I was in, when I was like ninth grade or eighth grade, ninth grade, ninth grade, that's when I had the moped. Bro. But it was not like the moped you see here, like, brrrr. Like a little beep, beep, beep, beep?

Yeah, no, no. This looked much better than that. Nice.

It looks like a motorcycle except it was not as big and as powerful. Right. So I would end up getting one through my college years there. Nice. So it did look cool. Did you feel cool? Yeah, it did.

It felt cool. Really the bedrock of this is that we can confirm that you are a biker. Yeah. I mean, if you want to throw that on the screen here, I don't know if you can or not, it's like, it was Hero Honda. H-E-R-O-H-O-N-D-A. Hero Honda.

This right here. That's it? Yeah.

That's the one? Yep. Yep. That's it, man.

It looked more like that. Wow. Okay. I love cool looking bikes and my question to you is, what's the cutoff age? Like, if I'm 32 and if I got a bike now, Ryan was very against it. Yeah. David was super against it.

The cutoff age would be somewhere like 20. Come on, dude. Come on.

Yeah. You don't need a bike. How old were you when you were riding the motorcycle, David? I know you were like a youngish guy.

I was 17, 18. You going to ride again, David? Not right now. Okay. Be honest. I got called out. Thank you. I got called out enough. I don't want to be getting called out right now.

Someone beyond 20 is not riding a motorcycle. Let me ask you this. What about a monster truck right down the center aisle of the pulpit, like just a monster truck in church? Would you do that? You know a church recently did that? I would drive a monster truck. Like, I think that would be a fun experience, but not in the middle of church. I think you know where I'm going with this. I think I do know where you're going with this. On current events, there is an event where a church had monster trucks.

I didn't really have so much of a problem with the monster truck. I was like, that's odd for a men's conference. I mean, of course we're talking about what happened over at James River Church in Missouri. Listen, people are writing in asking.

They wanted to know what you thought of them. James River in... In Missouri.

Was it Missouri? Okay. It was the Stronger Men's Conference at James River Church in Missouri. Okay.

Wow. And hey, monster truck rally at a men's conference, okay. But if you clicked on this podcast episode, you know we ain't talking about the monster trucks. No, we're not talking about the monster trucks. We're talking about the, of course, the sword swallower slash, have we stripped his performance of it? I mean, that's kind of what it was.

Maybe content warning if you're listening with small children. Really the response from Mark Driscoll, who was the keynote speaker at that conference. That's kind of where everybody's conversation is, because I think people are divided. So basically, what happened was just, you know, John Lindell had this act that came up. He was the pastor of the church. Right, right, right. And he was the organizer of the conference.

And well, no, yes, yes, yes, you're right. But anyway, he had this guy come and do a sword swallowing routine, and then Mark Driscoll got up and openly rebuked it at the opening of the conference. But I think where the deeper conversation, if it was just gossip, we wouldn't bother with it. But what the deeper conversation seems to be going is people are divided on the internet and on radio and on podcasts about, does Matthew 18 apply here? Because really, I think the aftermath was John Lindell got up and said, you know, Mark Driscoll's out of line.

We were together for 30 minutes, but for a whole half hour, he never said anything to me. And he brought up Matthew 18 as the reason. And whether or not that's true, I mean, nobody can know from online videos, but I guess that's really the deeper conversation to be had here. Yeah.

How do I weigh in on this? Well, I heard about it through you. He sent me a link, a video and said, can you check this out and see what you think? And I saw that and I was listening to Mark Driscoll, but I was watching down below because they had whoever put this TikTok video together, they kind of pieced together Mark Driscoll talking and then the video of this man doing his routine on the stage at a men's conference.

And I was just like, whoa, what in the world? And then I started listening again to Mark Driscoll and then I saw the interchange between him and the pastor of that church who put this conference together. And then the pastor sort of told him, you're out of line or you need to get off or something of that sort. Yeah. Kick them off the stage.

Kick them off the stage. And Mark Driscoll said, I'll receive that. And he closed up his Bible and walked off and the crowd began to boo the pastor of the church. And so the big question is, was it right what happened?

So there are several things that are happening here from my perspective. One, of course, is the Matthew 18 passage that was invoked by the pastor when he got up there. I don't know how much he knows the Bible or not.

I'm not here to judge that. I think that was taken out of context because Matthew 18 is about one-on-one sin. Correct. And this was not a one-on-one sin. This is about something that happened in an audience setting. So a better passage that is suited would be probably Galatians. In Galatians, where Paul is confronting Peter because of his hypocrisy in the presence of the Gentile believers. Prior to the Judaizers coming to the church, Peter was sitting there with the Gentiles and eating whatever was placed before him.

But when the Judaizers showed up, Peter sort of got up and he slipped out and then he came back and sat with the Judaizers. And Paul, it says here in Galatians chapter two, that even the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter, before them all, before them all. So now the question is, was the situation that took place at this men's conference in the same vein as the situation here in the Galatian letter? Was there also something there that was so theologically critical that it had to be opposed before everybody?

That's I guess what we're going to discuss today. Yeah, true. Because, I mean, even the pastor said it himself, like if you listen to the VO, he actually quotes Matthew 18 and he says, you know, if your brother offends you that you go to him privately. But the issue isn't that I was offended.

My brother. Right. Right. The issue is that this was wrong and it was done before God's assembly and the same platform where the word of God is to be opened and read. And that's I guess that really is the, like you said, the central question here. Now, the next thing that this pastor also said from the stage is that I was with Mark Driscoll for 30 minutes and he did not say a word about it. Maybe I'm paraphrasing. No, that's exactly what he says.

So I guess was he telling the truth? If this was true that yes, they had the 30 minutes and Mark Driscoll did not say a word about it, then I think it wasn't right for Mark to pull that in front of everybody at the conference. What he could have done was told the pastor, I cannot in good conscience get up and do this unless I condemn that.

And if you're okay with me giving my opinion about it, then I'm ready to go do that. Because that conference is that pastor's conference. This pastor has put this together. So he should have said that to him.

There's lots of different things to consider and there's lots of different outcomes. When is it appropriate to, I guess like we've said, if there's something that happens in a church or in a gathering or a religious convention context, when is it appropriate to stand up and say, I can't condone this. I have to speak out against this.

Okay. So let's change that discussion a little bit. Let's imagine you're sitting at a convention, similar convention, and it's not something lewd and crude happening there. We just talked about the other day about how antisemitism is on the rise in our nation all over the world. And it's tragic because sometimes the church is just sheepishly or maliciously silent about it. Let's say I'm at a pastor's conference or a men's conference and the speaker before me or this act before me is antisemitic and they throw a Nazi salute. What do I do?

Great point. What do I do? Should I, now if I am 30 minutes with the pastor before I get up to speak, then I'm going to tell him, Hey, what just happened there? It's not good. Either you get up and you condemn that or I'm going to do it. Either you get up and say that right there was not what we were expecting. I was totally unaware of that happening and we are very sorry and we will deal with the individuals who brought that garbage here and we're not going to tolerate that behavior.

Or I'm going to get up and say it, I'm not going to blame you, but I'm going to get up and say that antisemitism of any kind is not acceptable. It's one of the things where you start to weigh, because with that example and then of course with what happened at James River, it feels so obvious that this is inappropriate. You know what I mean? And so I wonder how many times this has happened. Well, I guess really I wonder a couple of things. I wonder how something like this gets so far up into the church where it's like, this is fine. Everybody's on board with it. Cause this kind of thing doesn't happen.

It takes planning and prep and all this stuff. So people have seen it. I would say, was the pastor truly aware of this act being from, cause they may not have told him everything. Again, we're going by ignorance here. Was the pastor truly aware that this man was a male stripper? Am I right? And that's what they're saying?

He's a Vegas performer. If he did not know that and all they told him was like a gymnast is going to be over there and he's not, even then, I mean, you know me, I'm going to vet everything. But maybe it's such a big, large event and it's like a men's conference. They're trying to, you know, have the he-man-women-haters-club kind of setting, which I don't get. I mean, it's okay. If you want to do that and bend metals and all that, maybe the young boys will enjoy that.

The young kids will enjoy that. But if he was truly not aware of it and Mark had time to talk to him, what could have been good was Mark could have given this pastor an out and said, hey, listen, why don't you go up there and call this out? You call it out.

This is your conference. You call it out. I think that would have been far more dignified if the pastor would have gotten up and said, hey, listen, guys, I want to go and apologize to you because something happened here that I take the blame for. I wasn't aware that this was going to be on the thing. And somebody put it up there without consulting me on it or I'm not even blaming them.

I'm taking the blame. But it should not have been. I think that would have been better.

But for Mark to say the way he did it, which leads me to think that he never had a conversation with the pastor. Right. Yeah.

Right. I think it's one of the things where you try to put yourself in that situation. You try to imagine the things leading up to it.

And then also how it would be if you were in that situation. Like I said, from the outside looking in, it's very easy for us to sit around this table. And it's extremely easy for people on TikTok to see something. And it looks so obvious. But then I wonder how obvious it is to them.

I mean, obviously, it was pretty obvious to Mark Driscoll. But then even like, what do you do in other situations where it's something? And I think this was a lightning round question when it's just something that you disagree with doctrinally.

Like if you follow an act that espouses a doctrine that you find harmful. Yeah. You know? Depends on what they're saying. If it's one of those crucial doctrines, like inerrancy of scripture, again, I hate to even put them in tears. Sure.

T-I-E-R. Tears. But if it was something about the inerrancy of scripture, or the Trinity, or the humanity deity of Christ coming together in one, or the exclusivity of salvation, Jesus is the only way of truth in life, there's a real heaven, real hell. These kind of core doctrines, that's what we're talking about, I would definitely call it out.

But if it's like secondary tertiary type issues, again, I'm not too keen on even calling things secondary tertiary, I would sort of be like, okay, whatever. Let's open the Word of God and let's get here. Right. I'll just go there.

And not waste people's time and effort in coming. But in this situation, I think not giving the pastor the opportunity to call it out and then calling it out yourself is not the best thing to do. Now, if he doesn't call it out, then let him know, hey, if you're okay, I'm gonna say something about that. I mean, I think that's a great point. And then if the pastor just says, oh, he brushes him off, then at that point, it's a toss up. I may just get up there and do it anyways. But I'll say, now, I gave you an opportunity to call this out, but you should have done that, because my men are here too. So I feel responsible to say something about this, so I'm gonna say it.

And then if that pastor tells me, you're out of line, you gotta get off the stage, then I'll take it. But I don't know if Mark did that. I don't know who. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, we don't have the information behind the curtain. We don't know. We weren't in the room when those conversations would have happened.

And all you can go on is the feeling you get when you watch it, which is not always reliable. But I do feel maybe there's a spirit of opportunity there. Maybe Mark Driscoll sees something like that happen, and he goes, you know, I've been involved in some controversies in the past. Maybe I can look kind of good here.

Maybe I can take a little high ground. Yeah, there are pastors who have done that. These public figures do that. I mean, I wouldn't put those things past some big names, because to resurrect a career or to just get some talk going, people have done things that I'm like, oh, well, I know what you're doing.

I don't know. That opportunistic view, that stance, I mean, that's pride. I want to put myself back on top. I want to make myself established.

I want to make myself a contender. It's always telling, I think, and I'm not saying this of Mark Driscoll 100%, but I think when it happens, and you know when it happens, it's easy to see when someone scrambles for moral high ground. You know what I mean? Like to me, and when I've seen you lead, I've watched you lead for 10 years, Dr. Shaw, and taking the moral high ground, it's not a burden, but it's like a heavy as the head sort of thing. It's not a burden of responsibility. Not a burden like, I don't want to do it, it's difficult, but it's like, this is what a leader must do. Sometimes, yes, it feels good to stand up for what's right.

Sometimes it really, really stinks, and you have to take what comes with it. But I guess it's not for us to judge this guy's heart, but just to, I mean, this is the conversation people are having. I definitely do agree with you that the Matthew 18 thing doesn't hold up here, but yeah.

I think the Galatians 2 does, albeit if they had the conversation beforehand, which I don't think they did, then I can say this was not, according to Galatians 2, was not followed very well. Yeah. And maybe we can kind of land here because this is something that we've talked about, not in private, but like off mic, I guess I should say, is even here recently, there's a very big difference between artfully deceiving people and discerningly articulating your message.

That's right. And it's a really, really, really fine line. But I see maybe there's a chance that some of this is happening where communication backstage is getting, and we've all, you've been a stage manager for productions that we've done, and Dr. Shah, you've emceed countless shows that aren't even at Clearview, just in the community. So we know backstage communications, miscommunications happen 100%.

But there's also, when the spotlight is on and the microphone's in your hand, there's an opportunity when all the eyes are on you to communicate what you want to communicate. And maybe there's some artful deception there, but one thing that you told me, and maybe you can, I don't want to ramble on here, but one thing you have told me is you want to avoid that in lieu of discerningly articulating the truth and always sticking with the truth of the matter. Right. Right.

Discerningly articulating the truth is the way we need to go, not artful deception. Here I 100% disagree with the whole performance. That should not have happened. And then I also want to put some blame on this pastor.

Why didn't you check and make sure what is happening in your program? Are you that big that you are like, well, I delegated that to my assistant. I would have definitely gone, I mean, I tell you guys, we're not a huge church, but we're a good size. A pretty big church. And we make sure, special events especially, hey, I want to go over the whole surface.

What's going on? Who's coming in? When do they come in? When do they come in? When do they come in? What are you saying? What's going to be on the screen?

We make sure all these things line up. So did this pastor know, or was he completely unaware? Yeah, because either way it's not good. Yeah, either way it's not good.

No, either way it's not. So I don't want to be like, oh, Mark Driscoll took an opportunity and did what he did. Okay, well, he's going to have to answer to God for that. But also this pastor has to answer.

You've been given an opportunity to impact, look like thousands of men out there for the gospel of Jesus Christ at a time where men need to hear about holiness, they need to hear about what it means to live righteous in an unrighteous world. And you're doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, I get it.

And I'm one of those people who wants to use every available but what? Christ honoring. That's right.

Christ honoring means. So if you want to do a monster truck, I would be the first to say yes, do it. Go for it.

If you want to do something big and crazy, bring in guys who can bend barbells or whatever, go for it. But that was not necessary. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And you do really have to take into account these kind of things and ask yourself, does it honor Christ? And I love that that's... That's the metric. That's the metric. It's not a metric.

It's the metric. Yeah. That part, I think, crossed the line. So if we're going to do those kinds of things, you got to know when it crosses the line. Yeah. Because definitely the line was crossed.

It was horrible. And also, and this is something that we do at Clearview very well, I'm not saying that to brag but I'm actually grateful for it, is we establish the line. We know exactly what the line is. It's not like, well, you kind of know it when you see it.

It's like, no, we establish it so that things like this can't happen. Right. Yeah.

And maybe that looks different for each and every church but hopefully it doesn't have to get that far. That's right. That's why I said that.

To us, it seems very obvious that it was inappropriate but to a bunch of people, they thought it was a good idea. Yeah. I don't get that. Sad. Sad. Sad. Hopefully today's episode was helpful for you guys in articulating through that debate that's going on and in establishing that line for your church, for your ministry.

A bunch of people are replanting their men's conferences. No sword swallowers. No sword swallowers. Circle underline. Shirt stays on. Yeah.

Shirt stays on. 100 percent. No, I was sick. Fine.

Go beyond that and find out who is that person coming. Yeah. There you go. That everyone. Yes. Good grief. Absolutely. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, if it was helpful for you, write in and let us know at 252-582-5028, or you can visit us online at cleerviewtodayshow.com. Don't forget, you can partner with us financially on that same website.

Be a part of what God is doing through the Clear View Today show by impacting the nations with the gospel of Jesus. John, what's coming up with tomorrow's episode? Everybody wants to protect your kids, right? Everybody wants to make sure that your kids are sheltered from the scary world of, I guess, sword swallowers and monster trucks and all that stuff, but listen, is there such a thing as overprotecting your kids?

Can you shelter and protect your kids so much that it actually does some damage? We're going to talk about that on tomorrow's episode. That sounds like a good one. Make sure you guys are here. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear View Today. What's going on, Clear View Today family? John here, and I want to let you know about a movie being produced right here in North Carolina called Resurrecting Eden. This is a love story.

It's a period piece set in the southern United States between two slaves who find themselves on opposite ends of slave society. There's an executive team who's putting this movie together, and they're calling for actors and sponsors right here in North Carolina, Triangle Area, and beyond. There's two very important meetings happening on Saturday, April the 20th. There's a sponsorship breakfast happening at 9.30 a.m., and then the casting call for the movie is happening later that same day from 2 to 4 p.m., and both those meetings are being held at Clear View Church in Henderson, but it is happening very soon. So if you're an actor or a potential sponsor in the North Carolina area, you can reach out to 252-572-2358 to register. Again that number is 252-572-2358, and we're going to leave all the relevant information in the description below.