Friday, December 22nd | Christmas in Dixie... or India

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Love that journey for you. The verse of the day today comes from Hebrews chapter 2, verse 17. Therefore, in all things, he had to be made like his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. A lot of big theology words in there. That's Hebrews. That's Hebrews!

You know, I have wondered about this. Why did Jesus need to become human? Why did the word need to become flesh? He's God. He can wipe away any sin with just a thought. He is the one who sets the rules so he can change it at any point and say, OK, listen, I see that you're faithful. I see that you're repentant for your sin. Go on ahead.

You're going to come in. But he set it up in such a way that he had to display the consequence of sin. He had to display the seriousness of sin. He didn't create sin.

You know what I mean? He didn't create evil. So for us to brush it aside and be callous and be like, you're God, you're greater than evil, true.

But it has to be shown the weight and the magnitude of its power. And only through sacrificing my son as a human being can that be done. I've heard Dr. Shaw explain it this way before, but holiness is not just goodness and light. Holiness aggressively pursues and eradicates sin, which is why you have examples in the Old Testament of people being consumed by the fire of God, by the holiness of God, because it will aggressively eradicate sin. So for God to not punish sin, for God to just be like, well, you're forgiven, that would make him not God in that moment. He would undeafy himself if he were not to punish sin, which is the difference in that word propitiation. There's another word, expiation, which means that God just wipes the consequences of sin, which is not true.

That's not what he did. Christ became the propitiation for our sins, which means the punishment for our sins was poured out on him, so that God's holiness is upheld and our sin is also forgiven. Every sin ever committed in the history of mankind incurs a debt to holiness, and that debt had to be paid. There's no debt on earth that ever just goes. We talk about that. We'll just cancel the debt. It never, ever, ever works like that.

Someone's got to pay it. That's right, and Christ did, thank God, and that's why we're celebrating Christmas this year and every single year. This weekend. Yes, this weekend. Today's the 22nd. That means Christmas is in one, two, three days, dude. Mark your calendars. It's coming. Yes, it is. It's coming for you. I had someone write into the show a worship question.

This is something that I thought was really cool. Grant R. wants to know, for church worship, how do you know whether to do Christmas hymns or secular Christmas worship? That's a good question. I mean, what do you do? I stick with the ones people know and love. I used to do both.

I used to mix and match. Now it's very rare. The thing is, it's Christmastime. People want to sing what they know, and they only get to do it once a year. We often say that, not just us at Clearview, but most people say hymns are good.

We just don't want people to become dependent on them. So if that's true, I'm all on board with that mindset, because I don't want our people to be like, hey, we're only going to sing hymns, and that's the only thing we like. So we do hymns when they fit the worship service. That being said, Christmas carols, they only get to do them once a year. So to then water in all of these new Christmas songs. There's a good chance that some people will fall in love with them, but we know that they love these Christmas hymns. They're great songs in their own rights.

We typically, typically now don't set a lot of stock in what people like. We really care about what they respond to. And at Christmas, they really, really respond to those hymns. So even now, when we do the Lincoln Brewster, Angels We've Heard on High, it's got a great swing to it. Angels we have heard on high, yeah, real big swing.

We did that last year. People responded to it a little bit more, but this year, as we've just been doing it as a straight carol, people have really responded to it. So it's like, okay, this is what I like, but this is what the congregation is responding to. Now the choice is yours. What's your favorite Christmas carol? Oh man, favorite Christmas carol. I really like Silent Night. I really like O Come All Ye Faithful. Yeah, I think that's my favorite as well.

And I really love Hark the Herald. O Come, O Come Emmanuel. That's a good one. That's a really good one. I feel like that one was not popular growing up, but here lately, Lincoln Brewster again did a really great version of that one.

We do an original version of O Come, O Come Emmanuel that's really fast. It's really heavy. It's rock.

It's got like coral parts. I mean, it's really great. We might do a Christmas EP one year. I wonder what Dr. Shaw's favorite Christmas carol is. I know that caroling was a big part of what they did growing up in India.

Yeah, it was. I think they had all those British hymns that like nobody here would really know. Well, I mean, I guess we would know some of them. Of course, I'm sure they did Hark the Herald Angels Sing. We've heard on High all those, but I'm interested in some of those esoteric sort of obscure British hymns.

Yeah, the classic ones. Yeah, let's hear it. Write in and let us know your favorite Christmas carol, 2525825028, or you can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. We're going to get Dr. Shaw, and we'll be right back. What's going on, listeners? My name is Jon.

And I'm David. And we hope you are enjoying the podcast thus far. You know, we really appreciate how many of you download the podcast every day.

Right. But we also want to remind you that we are first and foremost a radio show. Clear View Today is actually syndicated through the Truth Network. And we just want to let you know right now that in addition to hosting the all-time best Christian talk show of all time. Hashtag Clear View Today.

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Again, that's 336-759-0363. Well, John, are you ready? I was born ready, my friend. Let's hop right back in. All right. Welcome back to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com, or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028. That's right, gentlemen. We are one—well, not one day away, but as far as the radio show is concerned, we're one episode away from Christmas morning.

Yay! And everybody's thinking—I know what y'all are thinking—Clearview Today is not going to be the Christmas episode. You're dead wrong. We do Christmas strong over here. So aggressive. You're dead wrong.

You're dead wrong. We are here in all our Christmas spirit in the Clearview Today studio with Dr. Abbadan Shah, who is a Christmas Ph.D. in Christmas New Testament. Oh, you— Professor at Christmas University. We should have went— Christmas author. Christmas University. Full-time Christmas pastor.

I just caught that. And the host of today's Christmas show. We should have worn the Christmas suits on today's episode.

Why don't we wear the Christmas suits on Christmas? On the Christmas episode. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

We're meeting—we're meeting—we're doing a Christmas episode. You're right. You're right. Because the Christmas day is Monday. Now I know what people are going to be thinking. They're going to be thinking, they're really going to take time away from their families on Christmas.

Y'all can relax. It's a pre-recorded show. That's right. But you, dear viewer, are getting Christmas content.

You're welcome. Because we love you oh so much. Merry Christmas to you. Somebody wrote in this morning and asked what our favorite Christmas carols were. And Ryan and I both answered, but I wanted to know, what is your favorite? Or what are some of your favorite Christmas carols?

Oh, come all you faithful. It puts you right in the Christmas spirit. So that's one of my favorites. Growing up, I remember that one.

What else do we have? I have Hark the Herald Angels sing. Did y'all sing carols when you were growing up? We did. We did. But we also had Indian Christmas carol songs.

Ooh. Yeah, as they were. Really, really good, but they're different. Different beat, different melody.

But the lyrics are just very similar to what we have today. Were they in Hindi and Marathi? Oh, yeah, yeah, Hindi.

See, I find that odd because such a... Well, not odd, but I find it interesting, I guess, because such a small population is Christian. Oh, yeah. Which means you've got to work even harder to keep the traditions alive and to get excited about Christmas. And so people write. They write songs, and they are time-bound. So there are songs that I can tell they were written back in the 50s, and then songs that came to the 80s.

And nowadays, since I left India in 1991, I've sort of been cut off since that time period. So I hear songs today, and they don't resonate with me. It's like, huh, okay, that really doesn't do it. It's fine. Like those same Hindi carols that you grew up with? No, they're new.

People write new songs. Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, but they just don't grip me. Right. But then again, they grip other people...

True. ...who are growing up and living in that culture. What was it like growing up in India? What was Christmas like over there?

Did you have some of the same traditions that we have, or was it different mostly? Some things are very similar, like food. About three weeks out, mom and grandma would start cooking, and they'd cook all kinds of sweets and all kinds of snacks.

And so you can come home from school. You look forward to getting home, because there's so much going to be in the kitchen, in the dining room, sometimes in the fridge, and you can just pick it out and start eating it. Like this is going to be a Christmas Day feast.

Oh, yeah, that goes on from like December the first second. And dad sits down at the table and carves the roast beast. Well, now here's something different about the roast.

Okay? They have roast. But this is very different. It's really good, but it's not like pot roast. It's drier than that, and it's not like you sit down to have a meal with roast, but you offer roast on a platter. When people come to visit you, you have roast. And it's not like it's spicy or anything like that. No, it's just roast. But it's really, really good, and I miss that taste.

I haven't had it in, gosh, 30 years, because every time we have gone to visit family, it was not in Christmastime. Wow. Wow.

So I miss all those. That's really, really awesome. And I think you have a very unique perspective or a very unique position in that you grew up in a country where 99.9% of the population don't celebrate Christmas at all. And so I think people would assume that it wasn't until you came to America that you started to really enjoy or learn about Christmas, but it wasn't that way, because your dad, you were raised in a Christian home, albeit it wasn't all around and commercialized like it is here.

Right, it's not commercialized like it is here, but I went to a Catholic school, so we would have everything decorated during Christmastime, so streamers everywhere, balloons everywhere, Santa Claus posters everywhere, a Christmas tree. We had a Christmas tree, except it's not a Christmas tree like we have here, but it was a tree that got decorated. Was it like a palm tree? No, not a palm tree. We didn't have palm trees where I grew up, except in our own house, in our own yard.

In your yard? Yeah, that's the only palm tree. Now maybe they have it somewhere else in town now, but growing up, our home was the only place you could find palm trees.

Wow. Did you decorate the palm trees at the house? No, not the palm trees. Okay. Palm trees get really tall. True. So you can't really decorate them. They were coconut trees.

Okay. But we did have the Ashoka tree. Ashoka tree has the same look.

It looks like a pencil, right? Just like the pine trees here look like that, except instead of the branches turning up like this, right, or kind of fanning out, they're all draped down. They're all draped down. Okay. They just kind of like go straight down, like a person's hair. Right. They're all draped down. It's at an angle, like a triangle, but it's almost like a pencil is what it looks like.

Okay. You can Google it, and you'll see Ashoka tree. I'm going to Google it. We would put lights around it and all that stuff and put streamers on the tree. It's like out in the garden? Oh, yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Kind of like that.

That's one of the ones that fans out, so find one that doesn't fan out. They're a different kind. They're a different kind. They have a tall Ashoka tree.

If you put tall, maybe something else will come up. Yeah, let me see. And then we would also put a star on our house. Now, this is what Christians do everywhere. That's it. That's it right there. That's the one we had in front of our house.

Yeah. So it looks like a Christmas tree, but it's... It does look kind of like a Christmas tree. But if you look at the leaves, they don't sit the same way.

Yeah, they don't fan out. No. Maybe we can put this in there. Now, you know me. I'm already thinking about how decorations are going to work and how to Christmas up that tree. It seems like that's going to be difficult... Very difficult. ...with physics. Yeah.

Very difficult because everything falls down. Yeah. So you had to tie it up in the leaves. Oh, wow. And you'd put a string here, there, and then kind of tie it up like that.

Wow. And then if the Ashoka trees get really tall, of course you can't decorate them. When they're small, it's okay.

And most of these trees, the Ashoka trees, will stay about five to six feet, maybe 10 feet, for like almost seven to eight years. They don't grow. And then all of a sudden they're like, hey, I need to grow. They just hit a growth spurt.

They hit a growth spurt and they go about like 30 feet. Wow. Oh, my goodness. So did y'all decorate the whole 30-foot tree? Like would you... Well, initially we would decorate this little tree and then all of a sudden it started growing and then it's like halfway up, like a little skirt. So the tree is not in the house like it would be here and there.

No, no, no, no. It's out in the yard or in the garden. Now, I used to grab a branch, like a big branch, and it's not like a pine tree look. It's just a branch, like whatever, dry. And I would bring it in the house, put it in a pot, and put cotton all over it to make it look like snow. Wow.

And then put streamers around it. That was our Christmas tree. Can I assume there was never a white Christmas in India?

No. Now, if you go way up north in India, there is snow. Yeah. What are the Himalayas? Himalayan mountains.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's on the border of India. Yeah. So, yeah, they have snow. I can imagine sitting in the house in India. Like it's Christmas day, but it's still warm.

You've got the Ashoka tree out front. Everybody's kind of doing it. But then you see what's on television in America. It's like Christmas cranked up to like 11. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like Santa Claus in every shop window, ribbon wreaths all down the city streets.

Yeah. I don't mind it, but my perspective is different. People here talk about commercialization of Christmas and all that. How many messages have you heard from me on commercialization of Christmas?

You don't, because I don't think that's the way it should be. I think it's great that people actually are putting Merry Christmas on their windows. I don't care for the happy holidays. I think let's just say Merry Christmas. I think it's great to have Santa Claus. I think it's great to have Christmas trees. I think it's great to have a nativity scene.

I think all those things are wonderful. It just signifies that we are a Christian culture. That's right. Of course, I get it. That takes away from the main reason. So how about Christians and churches and pastors bring that back to the forefront of people's minds? That's true.

That's up to us. Why not? I mean, it's so funny to me that people are almost apologetic of Christmas time. It's almost like Merry Christmas. Oh, I didn't mean to offend you. Happy Hanukkah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not be proud of what it is that we're celebrating, as Christians especially? I mean, it's one thing if you don't believe that Jesus is God's son and that he came and was born in a manger, but if you do believe that, I mean, this ought to be your time.

This ought to be your moment. That's kind of what I was meaning earlier is that you and your family celebrated Christmas not only in a culture that was ambivalent towards it, like, whatever, you silly Christians, do what you want, but it got to a place where it was like, this really is not going to fly here. But the culture over time became increasingly hostile towards Christians where you were growing up. Well, not necessarily during Christmas time or anything like that.

I don't think it became increasingly hostile when I was growing up. There were times of hostility, but we as Christians were very strong and very courageous, and we stood up for ourselves, and we were not going to be ashamed. We're not going to close our windows when we sing songs. We're not going to hide our baptisteries. Our baptistery at churches outside in the churchyard where everybody can see what that looks like to be baptized. So we did things out front.

Out in the open. Yeah, no fear there. Yeah, there were times of hostilities, and I've shared some of that, how our power, our electricity was cut and things like that, how once in a while there would be a rock thrown through our church window. But there was one time this one guy jumped over our church fence and came inside and was going to steal or whatever, and my dad and my brother caught him and took him to the police station, grabbed him and took him in. We're not scared people, so we're very bold in that way.

You don't come against us. Yeah, and I wasn't thinking or putting in that you guys were afraid to the contrary. But now I think it's become more hostile towards Christians in certain parts of India.

It's not where it used to be. So you're 100 percent right, but not when I was growing up as much as it is today. Yeah, that's the point.

You're right about that. Well, yeah, that's the thing is that to celebrate Christmas and even the Christians who are still there, to be able to celebrate Christmas and to do so boldly without that fear of persecution, because we do it here, and I even said that from the pulpit, we can do it without fear of persecution or ridicule or whatever, but it's not as much of a reality for us as it was or as it still is, I guess, for people overseas, Christians overseas. And it becomes even more important, imperative that Christians build relationships. Like, for example, on 23rd, 24th, we would have Christmas carols. Nowadays, I think they're doing it all in the evening.

I think everything is changing over there as well. Growing up, now you're going back 30 years in the 80s and 70s and 60s, Christmas carols was on the night before Christmas, starting at about 8 o'clock or maybe even a little earlier, 6 o'clock, and it goes all the way to 3, 4 o'clock in the morning, and you're going from house to house. Every person in the church, we're going to go by their home. If we don't go by their home, they get upset. That's what I was trying to bring up, because I know you said that in the past. Like here, it's like, oh man, I would be so annoyed if the Christmas carolers woke me up at like 1 in the morning. But over there, if it's... You better come.

If you don't, then it'll be trouble. They're going to fuss with my dad, and my dad is going to fuss at whoever was leading the team. So we would have three teams out. At one time, we would have three to four teams out.

One was from the English service, then we had the Hindi service, and the Hindi service was more people. So we had like several teams who were out that night. And once in a while, you would kind of pass each other on the road. Oh no, we'll go headed this way.

Okay, all right, we'll see you in the morning. Like passing. So that would go on. But when we would go in neighborhoods, because those families were not just Christian families living there, they were pretty known, or they had good relationships with their neighbors, friendships. So the neighbors were like, oh yeah, this is their natal.

Natal is Christmas. Oh, that's what they do. And once in a while, they'll even kind of look from the windows and watch us. And sometimes, some of those neighbors would even call us and say, can you come sing for us too? And we would go there and sing. And they would say thank you, and they would bring whatever they had, because they don't have any sweets. So they would bring whatever, would you like some tea? And we're like, no, no, no, that's okay.

Try to give us some money, and we're like, no, it's okay, but we'll drop it in the offering if you want to. So that's how it worked. And then Christmas morning. Christmas morning, I mean, you go home about six o'clock in the morning, some people take a quick nap, and then by nine o'clock, you're back at church. And even if Christmas doesn't fall on Sunday, Christmas morning, there's church service.

I think that's one of the things that we in the West have such a hard time wrapping our minds around. And we went through this last year where Christmas fell on Sunday. And everybody in the church was asking, are we going to have church service? Maybe not everybody, but there were a lot of people who were like, are we going to have service? I'm like, aren't we celebrating Jesus on the 25th? What legitimate reason do we as a church have for saying we're not going to celebrate as a service? And what would I say, if Christ appeared before me and said, hey, stay home, chill with your family, but give me a legitimate reason why it's more important for you to do that than to worship me on my birthday.

And they're crazy. Yeah, and they'll be like, what would I say? I've got to unwrap my presents, though. It's no secret everybody wants to stay home, have a morning with their family.

We all want that. But can I legitimately look Christ in the face and say, I'd rather do that than worship you on your birthday with your church? But it should be a joy to go and celebrate with everybody.

It should be. That's right. You know, here's the thing.

I believe in many of the eastern side of things. Things have become ritualistic. I get it. There's a very high regard for how we meet and how this is a must. What do you mean? No, this needs to be done. This is not. I think we need that.

I agree. I agree, because you growing up in the circumstances you did placed very high value on Christianity and on the Bible and on the church. Now, where I grew up, of course, my dad was a Bible-believing preacher. But then there are other parts of the world where the Bible may be in high regard, but it's not preached.

Let's trust the priest as he walks you through the motions. But I think it's so encouraging to hear about that, because here in the West, I think it really showcases, at least it did for me last year, it really showcased for me why, or it really showcased how unspeakable it is for some people to be like, hey, we're going to get up on Christmas and go to church. For some people, maybe not even here, but just all across America, that's unspeakable, and it shows where their value is. Yeah, that's true. But other than if you come from those traditions and it's like, of course, it's Christmas Day, you go to church. Whether it's Sunday or Saturday or Tuesday or Wednesday, you go to church. This is Christmas. And those same people who are saying, let's remember that Jesus is the reason for the season, are some of the same people who will not get up and take their family to church on Christmas morning. Yeah, if you're setting up a nativity, if you are, you know, Merry Christmas, Christ-mas, if you're out here suffering. Keep Christ on Christmas, right. But let's stay home on Sunday.

No, come on. Bring your family to church and worship with them. How special is it when Christmas falls on a Sunday? Last year was one of the greatest Christmases ever. We did the math, and we said this will not happen again until, for 13 years, their Christmas falls on a Sunday.

And I was like, at this point, we have a responsibility to do it. And I think it was one of the best Christmases we've ever had. We didn't cancel a single service. We didn't consolidate. We didn't keep it as it is. We did a normal service. And we had some people who were, you know, who say, are you going to consolidate?

Are you going to put them together? And we said, why? Yeah. Well, I was just wondering, you know, because I said, I mean, you don't have to come.

Right. Yeah, we're not going to come. You don't have to.

If you in good conscience can sit at home and look Christ in the face and say, you know, it's more important for me to be here with my family than it is at church, by all means. I wouldn't want to have that conversation. No, not at all. And I think I'm glad, I'm so glad that we did it because we started thinking about it. I was like, we're not, not only is it, hey, don't worry.

We won't have to worry about this for 13 years, but we won't get to do this again for 13 years. So Christmas growing up was fun, exciting, and it still is. And I married a woman who loves Christmas. That's true.

It's sort of match made in heaven. Yeah. Did you bring any of those Christmas traditions to America with you? Like, do you, did you and your family bring any of that stuff? I'm trying to think just how we treat Christmas here at Clearview. Unlike other places where they're like, clear the calendar. Christmas is here.

Clear the calendar. We don't want to, here is sort of the opposite, which is like, there's a Christmas play. There's, we have, now we have a gospel. Bluegrass night. Bluegrass night of Christmas. Then we have Christmas Eve services. Christmas caroling. Christmas caroling. Christmas outreach event. Christmas outreach event. Yeah, the toy chest.

Toy chest is here. And then we have Illuminate Youth. Christmas party. Which I'm sure a lot of other places have their youth Christmas parties, but we have that. And New Year's, we have, you have a lock-in coming up. So we are in a sense doing a lot what we did in our home church.

I love it. Instead of clearing the schedule and making it as dull, dry. I mean, it's sad to me to drive by a church during Christmas time. I'm not saying on Christmas day, but Christmas time. And just seeing all the lights off.

Nobody in the parking lot. And before you send me a letter about how Jesus is not in the church, I get it. We understand what you mean. You know, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. That's right.

Christ lives in us. I get it. But to gather together, that's important. That's beautiful. Especially on Christmas.

That's right. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, maybe today helped you clarify some Christmas traditions of your own, or maybe the importance of worshiping together on Christmas, write in and let us know. Or you can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. Don't forget you can partner with us financially on that same website. Scroll to the bottom and click that donate now button. And don't forget to visit MightyMuskadine.com. Any checkout that you make with that promo code today, T-O-D-A-Y, you get a discount off. And 10% of that goes to support us here at the Clear View Today Show. Thank you to Mighty Muskadine for sponsoring this episode.

That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you on Christmas Day. On Christmas Day. On Clear View Today.