Church Vital Signs

Hello, everyone. Today is Monday, July the 31st. I'm Ryan Hill.

I'm John Galantis. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can visit us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. Or if you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com. That's right. You guys can help us keep the conversation going by supporting the show, sharing it online, leaving us a good review on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from.

We're going to leave a link in the description of this podcast so you can do just that. Today's verse of the day comes to us from Titus chapter two, verse one and two. But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine, that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience.

I love these letters from Paul, especially the ones to Timothy and Titus, these individual guys who were in the ministry that Paul was writing to and encouraging, because a lot of it is, I know that there are other people around you who are acting up, who are acting a fool, but as for you, you do the things that you know are right. Sometimes we use other people's sin and their disobedience as an excuse for our own, but we can't control what other people do, but we can control how we respond. The Bible gives us a really perfect template in Paul's letters to Timothy of how proper church is conducted. And yet we look to the, I want to say the world, but it's really like the churches that surround us as the template. So if other churches are doing it and there's lots and lots of people in those churches, they're in there, and I'm using quotations here for the radio audience, they're successful. I mean, so they're doing something right. So let's emulate them.

But what happens when they are doing something that's contrary to what Paul is telling to Timothy here? Like for example, focusing on sound doctrine, right? The lights are great. The music is great. The screens are great.

The creative, flashy videos are great. Is the doctrine sound? More importantly, do the people of God care?

Yeah, Paul's letter to Titus here is so important because it reminds us that we can't control what other people do, but we've got to be in control of our own selves and what we bring to the table at all times. You know, speaking of sound doctrine, I need a sound doctor in here right now, because my ears are muffled. My ears are no.

We've been doing a lot of VBS this week, or this past week, I should say, and also been wearing a lot of in-ear monitors for 15 years. Like just constant click in my ear. I hear like, not a ringing, but everyone kind of sounds like they're talking just like this right here. And I'm like, huh? And my wife is like, I'm like, what are you saying? I'm like, what? She's saying, can you take out the trash right now, please? But I'm like, oh my goodness, I straight up can't hear her.

And I haven't gone to the doctor because I hate making appointments. It is kind of a stressful thing. It's frustrating as an individual, but it's also frustrating as a parent.

I don't know if you guys have run into that with Gavin and Holden, but oh my gracious. I'm sure Ellie has. I let her kind of deal with all that stuff. Well, most of the time, Elizabeth is making the appointments for the kids, too, because she's usually the one that takes them. But it's just so many hoops to jump through and fill this out and this paperwork and this and this and this, especially if you have multiple kids, you've got to write down the address and contact information and emergency contact. And the child's social security number and the child's list times.

If I tell you that my kids all live at the same address, please believe me, like, give me a box to check everyone's at the same address. And then they're asking all these quotes. I mean, I hate to be the stereotypical dad, but they're like, sir, sir, is your child allergic to any medication?

I'm like, ah, I can call my wife real quick. I don't, I don't think so. They're like, sir, sir, I need to know if your child's allergic to any medication before we can process him and have him in the queue. Are you talking about Tylenol? Are you talking about the shots you're going to give him? He can have like a Flintstones gummy.

He's okay with a Flintstone. I just hate making medical appointments, even for myself. You know what I hate more than anything else? I don't know if you feel this way or if just all people with glasses feel this way. I hate the eye doctor. I don't mind the eye doctor quite as much. I hate the dentist. I'll fight every eye doctor that exists. I'll like with my fists. All the optometrists watching the show, we apologize.

John's not actually going to fight. I don't hate you as a person. I just hate your profession. I think you're a charlatan. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. You are a snake oil salesman. You're a fraud.

No, I don't think that. I just really detest going to the eye doctor. They always puff that little puff of air. I like looking at the hot air balloon. I'm like, oh, look at the little hot air balloon or like the little farmhouse. And then they, oh, they got me!

They got me, dude! I'm blind! I'm blind and I saw a balloon!

I don't know. And then they dilate your eyes. And then you walk out into the sun and your eyes cook like a hard-boiled egg. You feel like your retina is on fire. It's just the worst. And then you have to walk out with them folded up shades. I'm like, is there a more tactful way to do this?

I'm like fumbling. I can't drive. No part of the eye doctor is pleasant.

No part of it is pleasant. I wonder if there's a key, if there's a hack that we don't know of with making doctor's appointments that would make it a more enjoyable process. I don't know.

Send them in. There's got to be someone listening out there right now who's like, I like making doctor's appointments. Who's cracked the code on making doctor's appointments.

I don't know. Let us know. We're going to check with Dr. Sean when he gets in today. If you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, text us at 252-582-5028, or visit us online at clearevutodayshow.com. We're going to bring Dr. Sean in just a second.

We'll be right back. Well, good morning, afternoon, evening, Clearview Today listeners. My name is John. And I'm David. And we just want to take a quick second and let you know about another way that you can keep in touch with Dr. Sean's work.

And that is his weekly podcast series, Sermons by Abaddon Shaw, PhD. As a lot of you may know, or maybe some of you don't know. If you don't know, you do now. And if you don't know, then maybe just hop off the podcast. David, hop off the podcast.

I'm just playing. Keep listening. Dr. Shaw is actually the lead pastor of Clearview Church in North Carolina. Every single weekend, he preaches expository messages that challenge and inspire us to live God-honoring lives. One of the four core values of Clearview Church is that we're a Bible-believing church. So every sermon is coming directly from scripture, which is great because that guarantees that there are timeless truths that are constantly applicable to our lives. This is a great resource because whether you're driving, whether you're cleaning the house, whether you're working out, you can always benefit from hearing the word of God spoken into your life. And God's word is always going to do something new for you every time you hear it.

Sometimes it's conviction and sometimes it's encouragement. But know that every time you listen to God's word, you're inviting the Holy Spirit to move and work in your life. You guys can check out the Sermons by Abaddon Shaw, PhD podcast. First and foremost, check it out on our church app. That's the Clearview app. You can get that in the Google Play Store. You can get that on iTunes, but you can also find the podcast on the Apple podcast app or on our website at ClearviewBC.org. And listen, if you've got a little extra time on your hands, you just want to do some further reading, you can also read the transcripts of those sermons.

Those are available on Dr. Shaw's website, AbaddonShaw.com. And we're going to leave you guys a little link in the description so you can follow it. But for right now, David, let's hop back in.

All right. Welcome back to Clearview Today with Dr. Abaddon Shaw, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can visit us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. If you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028.

That's right. And if today's your first time ever joining us here on the Clearview Today Show, we want to welcome you, let you know exactly who's talking to you. Dr. Abaddon Shaw is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full time pastor, and the host of Today's Show. You can find all of his work on his website.

That's AbaddonShaw.com. Dr. Shaw, I have a question for you. Because you and Nicole, you know, four kids, how much time did you spend taking kids to and from the doctor?

Oh, my goodness. In the early years, a lot. Yeah, they were getting sick. They're like little petri dishes. They just grow.

Bacteria just growing. Yeah, and they pass it on to us, and they pass it on to each other. So there were times. And then a couple of our kids in the early years, like one had their adenoids removed.

So it was a lot of trips to there. Did you feel like the check-in process for doctor's appointments or even sick visits or anything like that, do you feel like it was as smooth and as streamlined as it could have been? Because when, OK, it's helpful for me to hear you say that. Because when Elizabeth and I have taken our kids to the doctor, I feel like it could be so much simpler than it is. It's just so many hoops to go through, so many extra things. Especially in our age of technology, you would think we would have these things figured out. But still behind all this technology are people. And people have to implement certain things like follow-up, like a return phone call. Like, yes, we're going to communicate this across the board. It goes on our master calendar that your appointment is there.

I mean, it doesn't happen. See, I was saying, for me, it went from like, all right, I'm growing up, and my mom makes all those appointments for me. Now you're married. You just get Elizabeth to make all that stuff for you, and you don't have to think about it. Well, I'm talking about the same thing. But with Nicole, if she makes the appointments, you don't have to even consider it. You don't even have to go if you don't want to. I think that's probably not the best course of action.

What were you talking about? Well, it's so frustrating, especially when we have multiple kids at the doctor for checkups or something, to have to fill out the same questions multiple times. If I tell you that all of my kids live under the same household, I shouldn't have to fill this out five times.

I shouldn't have to put in my address five times, and yeah, here we are. So check-in is like a 45-minute process per kid, and then you've already missed your doctor's appointment by the time you get there. Yeah, that's kind of crazy. I didn't think about it from the aspect of taking multiple kids at the same time. Yeah, it can be a little exhausting.

I don't know if we've done that. And I feel for the people behind the desk, sometimes I think they themselves are tired. They want to do something different.

But sometimes they feel like, OK, this is a system. I'm just simply following policy. This is our manual we have to go through, so I'm sorry.

Just please just do it. Yeah, please just fill in the blank. Yeah, here are the things.

Pass it back to me when you're done. Well, we're talking about today. We want to start a brand new series here on Clearview Today. We're going to talk through the churches in the Book of Revelation. And as I say that, I know there are people who are listening who heard the word revelation in their ears instantly, per se.

You ever seen like prairie dogs just kind of poke out of their holes? Revelation. Now, this is something I could follow. Well, I love this, because these are messages that you've preached, Dr. Shah. And it talks through these churches, but it does it in such a way that is so impactful and so relevant for us today, so important for us to understand what the message was to the churches and, by extension, what the message is for us. I appreciate you said that. They're relevant.

But I don't want to make them more relevant than they need to be. And here's what I mean by that. Over the past 20 years, let's just say 20 years, the statistics have been exaggerated about how many churches are dying. So yes, churches are dying. Churches are closing their doors for the final time. But thank goodness, in America, the stats are not at the same level as they are in, say, Europe.

Also, there are people in America, and there are research entities, let's just put it that way, who exaggerate the number of churches closing. I don't exactly know their motive behind it, but I feel like it is almost like, OK, so churches are dying. So here is our solution.

Implement this by our book, our program. That makes sense. I think that's what's also happening. A little bit of fear-mongering to drive sales.

Fear-mongering drives their sales. And I don't like that one bit. I'd rather you tell the truth and say, yes, there are churches closing.

Yes, there are pastors leaving the ministry for the last time. And here are the numbers. But they're not as drastic as we are making them out to be. I don't like that. Yeah. Well, it seems just kind of intellectually dishonest. If there is an issue that should be addressed, but rather than addressing the issue, we're going to provide some sort of half-hearted solution that requires you to buy my book or follow my philosophy or whatever. Follow this program that I've developed, subscribe to this newsletter, whatever, whatever.

Implement this paradigm that I have come up with. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And you don't really think about it that way, because we're all for people making their profit or whatever. But at the same time, if you truly believe that this is an issue for the church, is it going to be behind a paywall? Or are you perfectly willing to let churches die if they don't buy your book or if they don't subscribe to your program? This is why I love this series of messages so much, because it's not like your church is dying, so you need to have done this. This is, hey, you need to check the spiritual health of your church. You need to check in, just like you go to the doctor, just like you have a checkup.

You need to check in and see where you are and course correct as needed. Right. Just like Jesus said to the church in Philadelphia, you have a little strength. A lot of these churches have a little strength. But sometimes I believe people, denominational leaders, booksellers, people in these research entities, they tend to make it sound like, by droves, people are leaving.

By droves, they're leaving. And it's like, where? Right. Where? You're asking me where? Just look. Look around.

That's one of the most compound answers I've ever heard. Like, can you point me to these specific instances? Look around. Yeah, it's everywhere.

Look around. Just every church. Yeah, I do know that. So let's clarify again. Yes, baptisms are down.

Yes, salvations are down. Yes, there are people who are leaving. But don't make it look like by droves. When you add that, it means now you are using scare tactics to get something. Right. And I do not care for that at all. Yeah, it's almost the inverse of what you typically see, where people exaggerate how many people come to their church, like we're, you know, sometimes people will exaggerate how much good is being done. They're also exaggerating how much bad there is. Yeah.

And you don't, I had never really considered that before. Yeah. We sat down to talk about it. People, I feel like, will snag onto a negative report. Oh, bad news?

Oh, tell me more about this bad news. And then buy my product. Exactly.

Exactly. For the low, low price. Of $19.99, you can save your church today.

17 easy payments. So my suggestion is, let's be real. And be real in the sense that, yes, your church is dying unless you bring some changes. Yes, it is a terrible news. And yes, we need to be alert, wake up. But at the same time, don't make it more than it needs to be.

Because then my question is, so what is the solution? I think the thing that really gets me about these letters is that Jesus himself took it seriously enough to say, hey, listen, I care about you. And I want these churches. I want your church. I see the good that you're doing.

And I want them to survive. That's right. And it shows the heart behind it. He's behind every one of the letters that Paul wrote, that Peter wrote, John wrote. But here he is the narrator behind this, to the church in Ephesus, to the church in Sardis, to the church in Thyatira. He is saying, I'm the one speaking to you. So he is the one in all the other letters. But here is like, hey, don't forget, behind all of them it's me.

Let me just tell you, it is me. That's crazy. He's serious. That's crazy. Yeah.

Flipping through your Bible, you see red letters in Revelation. You're like, oh, wait a minute. I know.

Hm. You haven't seen them in a while. There they are again. Seeing the red letters outside of those four gospels. But it breeds that kind of new life where it's like, let me pay attention here. Oh, let me listen. Yeah. Yeah, it's so important for us. I love the way that you've set up this series. Church Autopsy?

That's such a cool title. Church Autopsy. I mean, we've got to examine this body. We've got to examine these bodies that we're talking about in Revelation and figure out what it is that they were dealing with, what the struggles were, and what we can learn from those letters. Do you feel like a lot of times when we talk about the church, we forget or we kind of ignore the fact that it's made up of individuals? Like a lot of times when I talk about the church, it's this big faceless entity out there that I may or may not contribute to. Right. Yeah. Here it's individuals who make up this body in this particular place and time that Jesus was telling them.

Seven of them, to be exact, right on the Aegean coast, right on the western end of Turkey, Asia Minor, Anatolia. And Jesus spoke to these churches and warned them to change or else. And the else was, I'm coming quickly to remove your lampstand. It's not like you're just going to die.

It's more about, I'm going to come and take your light away. So today, if you go to these places, the churches are gone. I was going to ask you, how many of these places did you have a chance to actually visit? Oh, I would say altogether four of them.

Wow. Yeah, the other three, we were able to go past them, but for time's sake, just could not stop. So I didn't get to visit Sardis. I didn't get to visit Thyatira and Philadelphia. These were the three I didn't get to see.

But I did get to see Ephesus, Smyrna, Laodicea, and one more. Pergamum? Pergamum.

Pergamum. Went to see that one. And so those four I saw, and the three I couldn't, but they're on my list to go see. The thing that struck me about seeing them is when you picture it in your head, you picture, yes, they're in ruins, but it's this big, intimidating fortress that's kind of got moss on it. But it's like, no, this is a field. This is a field, like when they were destroyed, they are gone. Like Ephesus, and this is one of the first churches we'll look at. About maybe 10% of Ephesus has been excavated. And if today, archaeologists put their shovels in the ground and just go at it, it will take about 600 years to completely excavate this city, completely excavate.

That's a lot of time, a lot of city underground. So where are those churches? Underground.

I'm not talking about some persecuted underground. No, they're gone. They're buried under the sands and the silt of time. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that makes the, I don't want to say desolation, but that makes the, I guess, the destruction or whatever you want to say.

It just makes it that much more complete. Because again, I think of these big, empty hallways, just you can see, but it's a field. It's grass.

It's land. Many places, there's nothing there at all that tells you that there was a church here. And this is a warning for us that if we don't change, if we don't deal with sin, or if we don't deal with whatever disobedience there is in our church body as a group we're talking about, that this is the same judgment that's coming against us. And so seven different churches, seven different, I guess, indictments against them. And Jesus is saying the same thing to us today. Change or else.

It's not for you to just learn a lesson. It's for you to look in the mirror and say, which one of these is me? Right, yes. You know, who am I? Like in the parables, who am I in that store?

I'm somebody. Like the sower went out the sower. Am I the good soil? Am I the wayside? Am I the stony ground, or am I in the thorny bushes?

Which one am I? That's the same thing here. Yeah, most people would look at these seven churches and be like, oh, the Ephesus, they lost their first love. That's why, well, churches ought not to do that. No, no, no, my church ought not to do that.

Right, and that actually is a great kicking off point for this little summary show here today. The first church had lost its first love. Now, Jesus compliments the church in Ephesus, and then it says in verse four, this is Revelation 2.4, nevertheless, I have this against you, that you have left your first love. And a lot of churches will have to say, you're doing a lot of good things. You're doing a lot of ministry. You have works, labor, patience, and you cannot bear those who are evil.

Great, compliments to you. You stand against heresy, compliments to you, but you do not have the same love for Jesus Christ that you did when you first started. It's kind of like we see that in marriage, too, like a lot of marriages, they start super strong, or even just relationships, like when your teenagers start super strong, you want to be around each other all the time, and then the more familiar you get, the more comfortable you get, you start to just drift away. Just lose your luster, absolutely. And in the context of church, in the context of a relationship with God, it can be easy to get busy with doing church stuff, being involved in ministry and serving and volunteering and all that kind of stuff, but then to lose the why, to lose the love of Christ that we get the chance to show to other people, to lose sight of that. Yeah, it's easy, I appreciate you saying that, because I think the average person doesn't get super involved in the how and the logistics of how we do this, like people in ministry do, but that love and that passion certainly starts to fade over time as just more and more things start to pile up. It's just beauty, too.

Yeah, that's right. And then the second church, and hopefully in the weeks ahead or days ahead, we're going to take each of these autopsy reports apart and ask the question, what happened here? You know, these seven letters are like an autopsy report, if you look at it kind of looking back. So churches have died, the lights went out, why did they go out? We cannot dig into the ground and find those churches because that's going to take years and years to figure out, and we don't have any documentary evidence. You can't just read coins, numismatic evidence, and go, oh, here it is, here's we get, no. We have to look at these letters and go, this is what Jesus told them, they did not obey, hence they're dead.

So we're looking at these, just kind of a summary show today. The second one was there, this church that did not have the courage in the face of trials, because Jesus told them in Revelation 2.10, this is the church in Smyrna, we went there, which is modern day Izmir. He said, do not fear any of those things which you're about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation 10 days.

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Yeah, it's a big ask, and it's something that I think people are quick to jump on the bandwagon until death comes knocking. This idea that churches could die from fear. I mean, how many of us struggle with that? How many of us have gone down that road and just to think a church died because of that?

So, that's chilling to me. What is the third church? The third one is the one in Pergamum.

Pergamum, we did go, Pergamos. But here the problem is a little different. Here's the problem in Revelation 2.15. Thus, you should also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolations, which you think I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Look how seriously Jesus takes false doctrine. I don't know if I want to say we play around with that, but we're very, and I have been in the past too, very loose. Well, listen, we all, we have our primary and our secondary and our tertiary doctrines, and these ones, they're not as important. Jesus is saying, not only do I hate them, I will fight them.

Like, golly, he's not playing around. Yeah, doctrine matters. Everything hinges on that.

That's the foundation for everything. So, if you have this one issue, and you said this before, Dr. Shaw, if you have this one issue that you think is not a major issue, explore that a little deeper because there could be major issues tied to that. Yeah, is Jesus willing to fight me on this doctrine?

Because if he is, I'm going to lose. So, I need to really think through which ones I'm saying aren't as important. Again, there's a lot we need to talk about. So, doctrine is important, like John said, and the problem in this church was that they were beginning to tolerate bad doctrine. And what about Thyatira, what was going on over there? Well, Thyatira, there were, again, false doctrine was one of the problems there, but the punishment there was this, this woman, Jezebel. This Jezebel-like person who was trying to provide God's people with an alternate way to serve God. So, you can serve the imperial gods or emperor as God, but you can also serve Jesus.

So, let's find a balance over here. So, you can eat food offered to idols, and you can commit sexual immorality, the frat house kind of stuff. Yeah, you can be of the church, but also a little bit of the world. Right. You can have the best of both.

You can do both. That's one of the reasons people accuse us of saying, yeah, I saw them Saturday night, all drunk and high and doing this and that, but Sunday morning, they're in church. So, this Jezebel was sort of promoting that way of living. Nothing new under the sun, they say. Nothing new under the sun.

Just a different garb. And the punishment against her was, indeed, I will cast her into a sick bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds, and even to the point of death. It says in Revelation 2 23, I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts, and I will give to each one of you according to your work. So, the church in Thyatira, again, sort of the same problem, which is doctrine, but here, the punishment was sickness and death.

Wow. So, think about that for a moment. Well, we do that thing. We do that where we allow people who really don't have a heart for God or for the gospel, or even for the Bible, to tell us how things can be. Listen, you can have both.

You don't have to be there all the time, every time the door's open, selling yourself. You can have a life. Let's not get extreme.

Let's not be obsessed with it. Yeah. Wow. Like, you really don't have a heart for God at all, but you're telling me that I can still have a life. Yeah. Yeah. And then the church in Sardis, their problem, again, was they were alive, in name only, but they were really dead.

I mean, that's a big problem, and I would love to uncover that because of time. Let's move on to the next one, and this one was the church in Philadelphia. They were sort of paralyzed because they were just content in living out in the fields rather than coming in the door. You know, Jesus told them in Revelation 3.8, I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door. No one can shut it, for you have a little strength, have kept my word, and have not denied my name. So come on in the house.

And they were living out in the fields because they were afraid of the next earthquake or spiritual earthquake or spiritual earthquakes in the sense of persecution. And Jesus was saying the door is open. There's not the open door to run out. This is the door to come back in. That's right. In returning and rest, you will be saved.

Wow. And then the last one, of course, is Laodicea. And everybody knows the problem there. What is the problem? Being lukewarm. You are lukewarm. That's the one everybody remembers. Because that vivid imagery, like if Jesus tells you, you're lukewarm, I'm going to spit you and spew you out of my mouth, like that's going to stick in my mouth.

That's the one I always remember. I'd rather you be hot or cold, but since you're neither, you're done. So I'm looking forward to going through each of these autopsy reports and then finding the solution. What do we need to do to change? What needs to happen so we can return and continue to shine the light of Jesus Christ? That's going to be awesome.

Amen. We're so excited about this series. Excited for you to join with us. If you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, questions about what we talked today, send us a text to 252-582-5028. Or you can visit us online at cleerviewtodayshow.com. And don't forget, you can partner with us financially on that same website. Be a part of what God is doing through the Clear View Today show. Join our Clear View Today show family and be a part of impacting the nations with the gospel. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear View Today. We'll see you tomorrow.