The Lycian League

Well, today is Tuesday, July the 4th.

Happy Independence Day to everybody out there. My name is John Galantis. I'm here again with Dr. Abaddon Shah, and you are listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can find us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com, or if you have a question for Dr. Shah, anything you'd like to write in and suggest we talk about, send us a text at 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearViewTodayShow.com. You guys can help us keep this conversation going by supporting the show, sharing it online, leaving us a good review on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from.

We're going to leave a couple of links in the description box below so you can do just that. And Dr. Shah, today's verse is coming at us from Matthew chapter 20 and verse 28. It kind of reminded me of what we talked about yesterday a little bit. Just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many. You know, the context of that passage is when James and John, the sons of Zebedee, you know, they wanted to be kind of the right hand and the left hand of Jesus in the kingdom. And they were thinking the Messianic kingdom is going to be this earthly rule now, which is going to be one day, millennial kingdom. And they were thinking this is now.

So how funny this is. We're in the age of, not the helicopter parents, we're in the age of the lawnmower or the snowblower parents. You know, we're clearing the path for our kids to have great success. And so their mama came to Jesus and she said, grant that these two sons of mine may sit one on your right hand and the other on the left in your kingdom. And Jesus said, you do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I'm about to drink and be baptized with a baptism I'm able, I'm baptized with? And they said to him, we are able. We can do it.

We can do it. Yeah, that's fine. And they said, you will indeed be drinking my cup and be baptized with a baptism I'm baptized with, which means you're going to die. And both of them, you know, suffered terribly. John, of course, ended up living a long life, but James did suffer martyrdom.

Just chilling. But they said, hey, we can do it. And they drank from that cup after all. But those are those are inspiring words. I didn't come to be served, but to serve and to give my life as a ransom for me.

Like that is the heart of the gospel. That's right. That's right. Beautiful. Do you have any plans for July 4th? Happy Independence Day, by the way. Thank you. Happy July 4th.

Thank you. I come from a different country where our Independence Day was, you know, on a whole different day of the year. But coming to America, this is my Independence Day.

Amen. So I am grateful for this nation. I am thankful that God and His Providence allowed me to live here 30 years now.

You know, I spent the first 17 years of my life in India and then I came here. And so 32, actually. Wow. That's awesome. Are you all going to watch the fireworks tonight?

Of course. Are you going to do some little fireworks at the house? Do something.

Do something. One of my favorite memories of being at Clearview, one of my favorite pastimes that we do every year is just gathering at your house and just lighting fireworks. I didn't realize this, but some of your son-in-laws, maybe two of them. How many son-in-laws you got? Two.

Two. And that's two of them are kind of pyromaniacs. They love the fireworks. Pyromaniacs.

They're like, I'm just going to go light the fireworks. And then I have a son who is sort of a pyromaniac as well, Nicholas. He's not here. He is serving as a camp assistant, camp director. Amen.

Amen to that. So he's over there, but he won't be there to light the fireworks. I was going to say, do you think they'll do some fireworks over at camp?

Oh, they do. Oh yeah? The way in Bryson City, North Carolina, is they have the fireworks over the lake. I forgot the lake is, what's the name of the lake?

It'll come to me. But anyways, and so people throughout the city of Bryson or throughout Bryson City, they go to some of the highest points is mountainous. Some go in a food line parking lot, whether or not, and they set chairs because it's a perfect angle to see the lake and the fireworks. Oh, oh, they're not lighting the fireworks in the food line. No, no, no, no. Okay, okay, okay.

I was going to say that. But the food line, because they said that to us one time, we happened to be there July 4th weekend. And they're like, we're all going to food line.

I said, oh, okay, that's awesome. We're going to buy firecrackers. No, you set out your chairs there and you watch the fireworks. Yes. From the food line parking lot.

Wow. Just set out chairs. That's the most North Carolina thing I think I've ever heard. We're going to set out chairs in the middle of a grocery store parking lot. We're going to light the fire.

Oh, and then they'll be lit on the lake. Right, right, right. We can see it from here. That's incredible. That's incredible.

Well, amen. I can't wait to come over to the house, light some fireworks. I hope you guys have some great 4th of July plans. We've got a great show for you today.

Very different show than what you might be expecting on this 4th of July Independence Day. But if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, anything that you want us to talk about in the future, send us a text at 252-582-5028. Those texts have been coming in all week. Thank you so much for suggesting them. Or you can visit us online, cleerviewtodayshow.com.

We get a lot of requests there as well. And that email is contact at cleerviewtodayshow.com. We're going to be right back right after this. Hey, everyone.

My name's Elly. And I'm David. And we want to take a minute and let you know how we can actually serve you as you're listening to Clearview today. The Bible paints an extraordinary picture of who we are as a church body. The mission of Clearview Church is to lead all people into a life-changing, ever-growing relationship with Jesus Christ. A huge part of leading people is praying for them. A big reason that Christians have unanswered prayers in their life is because they're not praying.

You know, 1 John 5 15 says, and if we know that he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of him. If you're listening to the Clearview Today show, we want to know how we can pray for you as well. There's a number of ways that you can get in touch with us at Clearview and share your prayer requests. But the best way is by texting us at 252-582-5028. You can also send us an email at prayer at clearviewbc.org.

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Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to Clearview Today with Dr. Abidan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can find us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. Or if you have any questions for Dr. Shah, anything you'd like to write in, suggest we talk about, send us a text at 252-582-5028. You can also email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com. And if today's your first time ever joining us on the Clearview Today Show, welcome. I want to let you know exactly who's talking to you today. Dr. Abidan Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show.

You can find all of his work on his website. That's AbidanShah.com. And Dr. Shah, if I have to say it again, Happy Father's Day. Happy Independence Day. I just got a text from my dad.

I just got a text from my dad. Happy Independence Day. How about Happy Founding Fathers Day? There you go.

There you go. Because we're going to talk about the Founding Fathers, especially the ones who were part of the Federalist Papers. Now the reason we're discussing all this is when we were in Turkey, but prior to going to Turkey, I was doing a lot of research because I don't like going anywhere, especially historical places, without doing my research first. I can attest to that. When I walked into your office, there were maps and books everywhere.

I was like, this dude is about to go national treasure, Nicolas Cage, on Turkey. So I know a lot about Israel. I know a lot about Greece, Egypt. I learned a lot.

And I'm far ahead from where I used to be. But Turkey was always a mystery. I knew a lot. I knew a lot of places. And I'd learn about Ephesus and learn about Smyrna and other places like Istanbul and all that.

But I did not take the time to go to places that are not mentioned in the Bible, not mentioned in New Testament. And one of those places was Patara. Patara, it was part of the Lycian League.

Now you may say, what does that got to do with us? The Lycian, or really it was the Lycian League. Oh, no. Can we just say Lycian for the podcast? We can say, no, Lycian. No, come on.

All right, I guess I'll say it. It was very instrumental. It was the model for the Republican form of government that we know today.

Wow, really? Yes. It was probably, I would say, the most advanced political or the first political federation in history. See, we get this idea that the model of democracy came from Greece.

It came from like the ancient Greeks. Right. And that is true, but that's very rudimentary. That's very basic.

And that's true. But what I want to do in the next couple of minutes, if that's OK, is to go deeper and talk about what is all this about. So when we talk about the Federalist paper, what were they talking about? They were talking about, in ancient times, they were talking about classical times. Greece or Asia Minor, Anatolia, was divided into tons and tons and tons of city states.

Some were big, some were small. And they were very autonomous, or wanted to be. They wanted to be free, that we will do what we want to do.

If you were to try and travel and go into some of these places and ask a Greek person or whoever is living there, what is your main ideal for freedom? We do what we want to do. As a city state. As a city state, as a people. As a people. As a tribe. This is who we are. We're free to live the way we want to live. That's their identity, almost, as a people.

Yes, yes. So keep in mind, you have the Persians towards the east, trying to subjugate them. You have Athens and Sparta towards the west, that are always trying to march and capture more territory. So there was a lot of value in these mega and smaller polis, cities, coming together in a federation. There was a lot of value in them uniting together with certain understandings of how we're going to work together, if we're going to survive. Because throughout the ancient world, they had seen subjugation by larger empires time and time and time again. Do you think they'd ever been part of it?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, many times they got subjugated. People came and controlled them, but they still had a sense of autonomy. We're still free. We'll do what you're telling us to do, but we're still free. We're going to dictate. We're going to rule ourselves.

That idea was very real to them. So this is what federation is all about. So as these city states started to come together, and as they started to aggregate, that this is where we get this idea of the federation, the federal state of different parts, making up one federation.

And the question then comes is, how will we do this? Will the bigger cities take over the smaller ones? Will all of us have the same vote? Will the smaller ones have equal say as the bigger ones?

What are the checks and balances? Even right down to where we meet, are we going to meet in that same city? Because if we meet in that same city, then that city becomes a much louder voice because they're going to have more representation. You see, these discussions, we think they just happened.

Yeah, we think Thomas Jefferson and them just kind of... Let's just do it this way and go home, people. Just sign there. Don't worry about reading the sign there.

Yeah, but the king is going to see it, man. Just sign. It'll be okay. Just sign. It's okay.

No big deal. But that's not how it works. These were things they had to study. So on February the 21st, 1787, through the provisional government of the United States, they established what we know as the Articles of Confederation. And they agreed to a resolution to establish a constitutional convention. And so I want to read here what they wrote about this. This is kind of a report of the proceedings in this Congress. It said this, resolved that in the opinion of Congress, it is expedient that on the second Monday in May, next, a convention of delegates who shall have been appointed by the several states be held at Philadelphia for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation and reporting to Congress and the several legislatures such alterations and provisions therein as shall when agreed to in Congress and confirmed by the states render the federal constitution adequate to the exigencies of government and the preservation of the union.

So they're saying on this certain such date, we're going to come together and we're going to vote based on the research that will be provided as to how all these states are going to work together. Because keep in mind, England, right? King George? They're just like, okay, you won the war. Now try to run this country. You think you're a country.

See if you can pull this off. So this is post war. This is 1787. Oh, that's right. That's right. You said that. You said that. So yes, the war has been over for 12 years.

Yeah. So they're sitting back to watch and see, not quite 12 years, maybe 10, 11 years. They're sitting back to see how is this going to work out? What are you going to do?

You can't get along. You think it's so easy to rule a nation? And that is, I mean, there's a part of that that's true and I think they kind of found that out where, where winning a war is not the same as running a nation. And so I guess that's kind of where King George is like, all right, go for it. They're watching.

They're waiting for this whole thing to collapse and for them to come on their hands and knees begging King George to take it back. Hey man, can we come back? Can we come back? Please subjugate us once again.

That was uncool, but we'll come back. Yeah. So that's what they're trying to do. And Benjamin Franklin said it this way. He said, I think it will astonish our enemies who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the builders of Babel. So they knew like Ben Franklin knew what was up.

That's what he's waiting on. He wants us to fail. And that our States are on the point of separation only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats.

Thus I consent sir to this constitution because I expect no better. And because I'm not sure that that, that it is not the best. It means this is the best thing out there.

Wow. Even back then they knew that this was the ideal. They knew going into it that what we have here is something good. It's based on something solid. It's based on something that has been done and that is true. And I think we've talked about this lots of times on the show.

We'll probably talk about it in the weeks ahead, but you base these things on the firm foundation of something that you know is good and is solid and works. You bring it in with Judeo Christian values and you have something that's unshakable and immovable. And that's why we still have it today.

That's right. So after the signing of the convention, this was not over because now the constitution needed ratification by all the state and that was not, you know, they were not settled on that. And so people like Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay, they began to write and defend the constitution and the series of essays that they wrote are the federalist papers. See, it's, it's funny because we tend to think that they won the war, everything's peachy within a week or so they've got the constitution, they've got the country up and running and it's, it's a happy story from there. But this is a process that took time and they came together and like you said, they ratified it, they agreed about it, they talked about it, they thought about it.

And these are things we don't think of. And the model they use for the federalist papers was the Lycian League. Really? Yes. Wow.

And I had the privilege of standing in the bulletarian, in the place where the Lycian League was held. Wow. You want to talk about it for a minute? Yes. Being able to go, did you know going into it that that's what that place was?

Yes. I had done my research, so I knew this was coming up. So I had my information there. I had quotations from the federalist papers by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton.

I was ready. I was going to, I, Nicole, before we walk out of this, this looked like a theater and we have a video on it that will be shown in our services before. And I said, I want to read this here because this is where the, this, this form of government was practiced. And I want to be able to read what James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, who did not go there.

They never got a chance to go to Patara because Patara was not even excavated at that point. Wow. And this, this theater was not even put together until maybe five, 10 years ago, I think it is. I think, I think, I think that's what you were telling us earlier.

Yeah. So up until that point it was buried. It was just all over the place. And then they kind of put it together. Some of it is original, some of it is not, but it's just amazing to stand on those grounds and to know that this is where this Federation was held. Then coming back to, uh, coming back to America after Turkey and then being able to go up to Boston and kind of be in that area where, um, where, where all of this stuff happened. Did you feel the connection?

Like, did you feel like this is kind of what God is showing me in this season? Yeah, I, but when you understand, you know, the truth should have set you free. You have a sense of confidence that yes, what they did back in those 1780s, trying to make this system, this nation called the United States work was not just done by a bunch of guys sitting there going, I don't know, how do you want to do this?

I don't know what you want to do. It was based on a foundation that was there 2000 years ago. Now, albeit the Lycian League, still so much research has to be done. There were many of the leagues, by the way. There was the Achean League. Uh, there was the, uh, Boitian League, the Eubian League, a lot of different leagues, but this was one that, uh, was very well developed.

If I can, the Thessalian League. Yeah. And these, all these leagues, these are, these are city states coming together to form federations. Right. And they were not like, okay, this is it. But sometimes they were mixed and matched with somebody else because it felt like that was a better match for them. It was more beneficial to come together. So it's different times in history they had done this.

But Strabo, um, said it this way about the Lycian League. He said there are 23 cities that share in the vote. They come together from each city to a general Congress. After choosing whatever city they approve of, the largest of the cities control, uh, three votes each.

The medium size two and the rest one. Okay. So keep that in mind.

Uh, not everybody gets an equal vote. And Strabo, just for the benefit of those who knowing, uh, who know this, uh, born, uh, between 24 AD and 64, I'm sorry, 64 BC, 24 AD. Wow.

He was a Greek geographer, philosopher, historian. So this is who he is. Okay. Okay. So just to let you know in the same proportion, also they make contributions, uh, and discharge other liturgies. Artemidros said that the six largest was Xanthas, Patara, where I stood. Right. Uh, Pinara, Olympus, Myra.

I've been to Myra as well. And Tlos, the last name being situated near the past that leads over into Cybra. At the Congress, they first choose a Lykiarch. I can't, I don't like it. I don't like it.

And he loves ice cream. And then other officials of the league systema and courts of justice, uh, de Casteria are designated together. In earlier times they would deliberate about war and peace and alliances, but now they naturally do not do so since these matters necessarily lie in the power of the Romans. So sometimes they had to work under certain other domination and yet they maintain these confederation. Wow. They maintain their autonomy even working under higher powers. Right.

Do you, do you feel like we, we, I mean, I certainly do, but it feels like we truly understanding this, it gives a sense of how miraculous what we have in the United States is, how, how improbable something like this is where these different States come together and form this Federation of checks and balances. Right. Right.

That works. Yes. I mean the, the executive, the legislative, the, uh, what is the other one? Uh, judicial, judicial branches, how they, they keep each other in check.

This was designed very purposefully. Now the Lykian league did not have all these nuances, right? But this is where we got our model and, and um, James Madison and others talk about this.

If I can read one, just read the one from Alexander Hamilton who wrote in the Federalist paper nine, he said this in the Lycian Confederacy, which consisted of 23 cities of Republic. He's, he's quoting from Strabo. Right. That's awesome.

That's incredible. Got you there, buddy. The largest were entitled to three votes in the common council.

Those are the middle class two and the smallest one. He's, he's literally, he's literally, did he cite Strabo? Uh, I don't see Hamilton. You said this was Hamilton. Hamilton got it. Got it immediately. DQ Hamilton. Yes.

DQ. The common council had the appointment of all the judges and magistrates of the respective cities. This was certainly the most delicate species of interference in their internal administration for there be anything that seems exclusively appropriated to the local jurisdiction.

It is the appointment of their own officers. Yet Montesquieu, speaking of the association says, were I to give a model of an excellent Confederate Republic, it would be that of Lycia. Who was Montesquieu? Montesquieu was a historian.

He was a political philosopher, French, and he studied these things and put a political theory out there. And that's where we get this information. Now, just to, just for the benefit of our listeners very quickly, Renaissance came between 1300 and 1700.

That's right. In 1453, Constantinople fell, fell to the Turks, became Istanbul and all that. When it did, or even prior to that, Greek scholars ran from there to Florence. They took with them their manuscripts, their works, and these Strabo or Polybius and all these ancient writers who had written about these leagues and histories and all that. They brought with them to Florence and there they translated them or explained them and taught them to the people.

Wow. So that was the first times that many people heard about, oh, this is how they did it back in those days. Now it's getting out to the general populace and now people are starting to understand. They're starting to think Renaissance. They get enlightened. They get enlightened.

Okay. So Renaissance happens then. Reformation also happens 1517, 1648, which are going back to the sources. These people are going back to the Greeks, to the ancient, to the classics to learn how to govern themselves. So also in Christendom, they're going back to the Greek sources of the New Testament.

1685 to 1815 is when the enlightenment happens, which did not do so well when it comes to faith. But now all these people understand. They have this working understanding and so now they bring it over to this new world, go through this. See, it makes a lot of sense when you do it because now it's like, well, how did these guys find this? They brought it with them.

And people like Montesquieu and others studied these works of Polybius and studied about the Lycian league and wrote about them. And then in the early 1700s, okay, now we are at the end of the Renaissance at the beginning of the enlightenment period. That's when our founding fathers are coming across these things. So it's not like one day randomly the Bostonians said, we're done with this.

We're going to throw all this tea in the harbor. Hey, did you guys see this book in the library about the Lycian league? Like light bulb. I'm getting an idea about this. No, it was because these ideas were floating around. They're floating around more and more. They were churning. It was like a little dust cloud, you know, that just kind of swivels around and then becomes a tornado. It became a tornado in the mid 1700s and said, we will not be ruled. No taxation without representation. Yeah.

Do you think they just randomly did that? No, these, these thoughts and ideas and these works of the ancients were sort of churning and, and inspiring people, some not so good, some good. Why do you think it's important for people to know that, to know the origins of why the founding fathers did what they did and where they got this information from?

Like what can we walk away with this on this independence day? I'm saddened. I'm disappointed when I hear people on college and university campuses talking about how terrible the United States is or how our constitution needs to be rewritten.

It was great for a certain time, not for our times. And I look at those people and I think, you guys are fools. You have no clue.

You have no clue. These thoughts were not just randomly put together by a group of people who just wanted to benefit themselves. They were well thought through. And they've been working for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.

Okay. They, they knew that behind them, like we read about George Washington, that countless unborn will come and will look to us. That's right.

So even though Washington may not have sat there and worked through Strabo's works, he did understand what Hamilton was saying. That's exactly right. And Franklin was saying, and what Madison was writing up in Montpelier. That's exactly right. They knew that these guys were doing their part. He's going to do his part, but we are together in the same mindset.

That we have to create a confederation of these states coming together and with certain checks and balances, preserve the union so that we can be free. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's brilliant. I mean, it's brilliant and it works. It is a brilliant idea.

And it works. And, and speaking of George Washington, if any of you guys out there are listening, well on July 4th, I really wanted to hear about George Washington. Well, buddy boy, let me tell you tomorrow, we got a special episode for you because we're reviewing one of my favorite books.

A book that you, Dr. Shah, have recommended to me is 1776. Make sure you tune into tomorrow's episode. If you enjoyed today's episode or you have any episode, I'm sorry, you have any suggestions for future topics, let us know by sending us a text message at 252-582-5028. You can also visit us online at cleaviewtodayshow.com. You can support us financially on that same website as well. Very grateful for every gift and every donation that you guys make. It makes an impact for God's kingdom here on earth. We love you guys. Happy Independence Day and we'll see you tomorrow on Cleaview Today.