The Clearview Team (ft. Dr. Peter Gurry)

Welcome back, everyone. Today is Tuesday, December the 27th. I'm Ryan Hill.

I'm John Galantis. And you're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can find us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. Or if you have a question for Dr. Shah or suggestion for a future episode, send us a text at 252-582-5028. You can also email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com.

That's right. And you guys can help us keep this conversation going by supporting the podcast, sharing it online, leaving us a good review on iTunes, Spotify, absolutely nothing less than five stars. That's a good way that you guys can set us up for success.

So to set you up for success, we're going to leave a link in the description of this podcast so you can go review it. Because we love you just so much. We love you so, so good. Speaking of love for you, yeah, that's not really a good segue, but can I read the rest of the day? Not right now. Okay. Let's hold off for a little while. No, I'll go ahead and read the rest of the day. Okay. I was just joshing. I was just kidding with you. That's right. The verse of the day today comes, Ooh, it's a good one.

Romans 8, 28. Not that there's a bad one. I said that, but not a bad one. No, this is a good one. This is one of my favorites. This is a popular one. Yeah. Romans 8, 28.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose. My wife, my wife, uh, just a little peek behind the screen. My wife picks these for us. My wife picks the verse.

Does she really? She knew, she knew that, uh, she knew that I loved when I, when I write out the run sheets for the week, she sends me verses that, uh, she's been reading her devotion. She knows I love this verse. I love Romans 8, 28. Um, Romans 8, 28 is, it's a verse that before coming to Clearview, I really didn't have any experience with. And there was a, there was a period in like 2013, 2014, where it seemed like Dr. Shaw was just using it and all his sermons.

I just kept hearing it over and over and over. And then there's things would happen in life. Things kind of come against you. Things just start to just start to wear on.

You start to kind of like really life hits you full force and like your mid twenties. Uh, it was just a verse that kept coming back to me unbidden. I wouldn't go looking for it. It just would always come back to my mind. And it was another thing. I don't, I'm rambling here, but it was another thing where it was like, I always thought things in life, like trials in life were something to just get through. It was just something to endure.

It's not something that is going to work out together for good. Right. So that verse has pretty much, I would say that versus transformed my, my thinking in my life. Yeah, it is a great verse. It's such an important promise for us to hang on to that, you know, God is working in the midst of difficulty.

Yeah. Difficulty is not the end goal, but there's, there's good to be had in the, in the difficult moments. And it's not just things that are obvious to us. It's not just obvious. Like it's not just obvious things. It's not just convenient things, all things. He works together for good. Even the things that I don't even know are going on in my life. That's right.

There are things working against us in life that we're not even conscious of, but God's going to use that for good too. That's right. I love it. Well, we want to get to the meat of the episode today very quickly. John, do you want to tell them what's coming up? Yeah, we got a special guest. We got a special guest. Dr. Peter Gury is back with us again this afternoon. We're very excited about it. So we're going to go grab Dr. Shot and him in just a few minutes. I think he actually just arrived.

Not, not long ago. We're excited about that. If you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, text us at two five two five eight two five zero two eight or visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com. We'll be back in just a minute. Hey there listeners. My name is John and I'm David, and we just want to take a second and talk to you about Dr. Sean Nicole's new book, 30 days to a new beginning daily devotionals to help you move forward. No matter who you are or where you are in life, you're going to get stuck. You're going to have goals that you just can't seem to reach and you're going to be looking for some new way to start over. Unfortunately, life does not have a restart button, but here's the good news.

God's mercy is new every day, right? And so that means every day is a new chance for you to start over. Now, Dr. Shah and his wife, Nicole have written a new 30 day devotional in their 30 day series designed to give you practical tools for starting over no matter where you are in life's journey or what pitfalls you've encountered. This devotional is going to help you move forward, refocus your mind on God's truth and meditate on his word and you guys can pick up a copy right this second on amazon.com unless you're driving. Yeah, don't shop and drive unless you're driving, in which case wait till you get home, but we're going to leave a link for you right here in the description of this podcast so it'll be waiting for you when you get home. That's 30 days to a new beginning daily devotionals to help you move forward. For the remainder of November and all through December, we'll be sending a free copy to anyone who supports the podcast by visiting us online and donating to the show at cleerviewtodayshow.com.

That is a very, very good incentive gang. That's 30 days to a new beginning daily devotions to help you move forward by Abaddon and Nicole Shaw. Thank you guys so much for listening. David, you want to jump back into the show? Let's go.

All right. We're here again in the studio with Dr. Shah. Dr. Shah again with us today. We want to introduce our special guest.

Dr. Peter Gurri from Phoenix Seminary Scribes and scriptures is his book text and Canon Institute. And yesterday we had a great show and you're back here again. I'm back again. Welcome back.

Thank you. It's good to have myself. It's good to have me.

I'm excited to be here though. Cause that's a good attitude. I like that. That's a positive self. I like that. I like that. That's what I'm gonna start saying to myself in the morning. When I get up, look in the mirror, it's good to have myself.

And then my wife says, no, it's not. Go back to sleep. Well, Dr. Gurri, I understand you kind of want to flip the script on us today. That's right. I'm taking the reins here.

That's what's happening. Last time I was here, I was asked to join the podcast and I told Dr. Shah that I would do it on one condition that he let me have an episode. And I want to tell listeners why it's because I've been to Clearview church now twice at both times. I've very much enjoyed myself and probably think I've enjoyed most though is hanging out with these guys here, which is the staff of Clearview church. And I've just been so impressed both times that I've been here about how well you get along, how hard you all work and how much fun you seem to have doing it. And I teach pastors and training for a living.

That's what I do. I teach seminary students. And so I hear plenty about the dysfunction in churches and I try to prepare them for the difficulty of ministry as best I can. I'm an elder myself, so I know a bit of what it's like to work in a church. And so I just thought, I want to take this opportunity to put you guys under the microscope, put you behind the mic.

I know you already are, but to be asked the questions instead of doing the asking. So what we're going to talk about in this episode is we're going to talk about church life and particularly church ministry life and what it's like to be pastors. And so we've got Abaddon, Ryan, John, and David is here too behind the cameras. But I want to talk a bit about what it's been like being a pastor and how you guys do it so well, and what are some of the ways you want to keep doing it better.

So to give listeners a bit of context, let's start with Abaddon. Abaddon, tell them how long you've been at Clearview and tell them whether you pastored anywhere else. And then I think in your case, your dad was a pastor too.

Is that right? So maybe tell us a little bit about that. Abaddon Almost 57 years when he passed away last year. And then my wife's dad was also a pastor for several decades before he passed away in the late nineties and with cancer. So anyway, so I grew up with the understanding of what ministry is and how difficult it can be and all that. And I was not going to go in the ministry.

I was not on the radar. And then God called me in the ministry and we came to Henderson and, and it's, it's been, it's been a ride. And you told me before we started, you've been here 24 years. 24 years.

We came in 1998 and this is 2022. Okay. Now tell us, you said you didn't know you did not want to go into ministry.

Why? Not because ministry is, you know, bad or tough or whatever. I just saw the dedication that my dad had and, and I saw how he would, he would literally pour his life out. He was a shepherd.

Yeah. Now he was a amazing dynamic speaker. He had a tremendous testimony, came from Muslim background, became a Christian, all that.

So it was all great. Educator, scholar. He used to teach at, you know, one of the seminaries in India and all that. But I saw the dedication. I felt like that's not me. I can't do that. Yeah.

The shoes are too big to fill. Yeah. I had him on a pedestal. Yeah. Okay.

And what changed in that? What made you think maybe I could do it? My wife's dad. Oh yeah. So when we met, he really impacted my life. So I got to spend maybe a couple of years before he passed away. But in those brief two years, that's when I responded to the call in ministry.

And then a lot of what I did was pretty much emulating Nicole's dad. Now I want to get, I'm going to get the other guys, but before we do, what this tells me is that you're a pastor's kid. Yes.

Your wife is a pastor's kid. Yes. And our listeners don't know and the viewers can't see, but one of your kids is in the room with us. Absolutely.

Sitting over there. And when I've been to clear before, some of your kids have been on the staff. Yes. And as best I can tell your kids do not hate this church. Okay.

Right. So that's quite a legacy because if anybody, if you know anything about pastor's kids, you know, there's, it's not at all unusual to meet pastor's kids who hate the church because they've seen their dad give all his attention to the church and so they come to resent it. So I'd love for you to just share briefly if you can with listeners, what made the difference for you both as a pastor's kid and then what do you think that you've done right as a pastor to help your kids feel that way as well? Well, I would say this way.

Yes. They, they grew up with us. Every, everything we did, we didn't try to keep them out of the ministry. Like, Oh, this is, this is my time to the church.

And now my time for my family. If we do that, then of course they have this, this idea that dad is a pastor and then dad is dad. That is a choice between the church and them. We took them everywhere. We were with us doing ministry. Like when the church was small, they were setting this up, setting that up. So they kind of grew up in that. But I believe they did. Each of them have gone through that moment of crisis. They have where they wonder, is this real?

Is Christianity real? Is all this because they see the other side of dad too. Yeah. The side of that, the dad, which is just, don't ask me any more questions. I'm done, you know, or just, just do this or I'm so gracious and nice to everybody, but I'm not to them. So there has been a lot of, I'm so sorry that had to happen. I'm sorry. So I, I don't want people to think that it has been perfect, but the imperfections have helped us grow closer.

And I think they're still growing. Like, like Nick over there, I'm sure he has, he has his moments of thinking, dad is so nice to these people, but he's like, just do this and that's it. Or else Nick does not have a microphone.

So we're not going to put him on the spot here folks, but if he did, we would ask him. All right. That's, that's really helpful. I just, I'm always impressed. And whenever I meet a pastor whose kids seem to, like I said, not hate the church, I always ask him, I say, what have you done with your kids? And like you said, I mean, even non-pastors kids go through that at some point they have to decide, is this for me or not?

Is this just my parents' faith? Right. So then that regard is not unusual, but there's the added sort of the added element of their often, they can often feel like they're under the microscope.

They have to be perfect because dad's the pastor and they don't want to embarrass their dad in front of everybody. Right. There's but as long as the pastor or is willing to say, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Without justifying and saying, let me tell you why I ordered this and that just being to say, okay, you felt that way. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I was wrong. I'm very sorry. And that's a lesson for any parent listening, right? The most important thing you can do for your kids is own up to your mistakes because they're not perfect. Right. Right.

And the most important thing we can teach them is how to repent. All right. Absolutely.

That's good stuff. All right. Let's move to Ryan. Ryan, you've been here for eight years. Is that right? Give our listeners a little bit of a sense of what you've done here and maybe what you do here now.

Yeah. So when I, when I started, I was still in seminary in Wake Forest and you know, going through school, applying to different churches, apply different jobs. And I had sort of come to that wits in moment of like, Oh my gosh, I've been applying and things are going nowhere and just frustrated working several jobs to make ends meet.

We had three little ones at the time. And so I submitted one last application. I said, okay, God, this is it. I'm done. This is the last one. And then two days later, Dr. Shaw called me and said, Hey, I'd like to meet with you.

And then I'm so thankful that the other interviews didn't go anywhere because that was the one, that was the one that, I mean, literally my life has been changed since being here. So I do a lot in the office. I oversee congregational care, just making sure people are plugged in and cared for, making sure people have a place to belong, giving ministry leaders the resources they need to be successful. And then overseeing our student ministry as well.

So sixth and 12th graders. And now you guys also do, you guys have a very creative church. Okay. Our listeners probably already know that from the podcast, right? Not every church has the ability to do a podcast of this kind of quality. But you also do plays or musicals now, is that right? We have a, we have a theater ministry here. So we've done several big shows, things like Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, The Wizard of Oz.

It's a Wonderful Life. So productions like that. And they really are genuine productions that go into the kids in the ministry are part of it.

And then an outreach to the community as well. I take it. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. That's that's fantastic. All right, John, you've been here 10 years. Is that right?

Going on 10 years. Give listeners a bit of a sense of what you do here. So I do worship primarily handle the worship team, coordinating all the worship, any sort of production, any sort of I mean, any audio visual, anything like, so this podcast, all of the live streaming any songwriting.

I work as a team with Dr. Sean, with David as a songwriting division and then all of the music production, pretty much anything that gets produced and released to the outside world. Now, Ryan, you grew up in church. I did.

And Abaddon obviously did. But John, you did not. Did not. I didn't, I didn't hear the gospel until 2007. I think I was 15. So give our listeners a little bit of sense of how did you, you don't have to tell us your conversion story. But how did you go from becoming a Christian and knowing nothing really, whatever people know, sort of cultured about Christianity to thinking I want to do ministry. Yeah, I was. So I had been saved for about a year.

I think I was 16. I went to the extreme winter conference in Gatlinburg. And it was, I mean, extreme. It was extreme. Is this one of those where they take the E out and it's just extreme.

How did you know, man? Christians are so creative. I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

Yeah. It was, it was, I was, I was listening to the worship. It was the last night. And they did that thing every night where they're like, stand up. If you, if you, it was very emotional.

It was very like, you know, atmospheric and ethereal. And they were like, if right now the Holy Spirit is knocking on your door, he's knocking on your heart, let him in. And kids were standing up and I was already saved. So I was like, okay. But then the last night they said, you know, if you want to, if the, if the Holy Spirit is calling you to devote your life to ministry, stand up. And I genuinely, I'm not this type of person to be like, oh, that was a God moment. I'm really not like that, but I was just on my feet before I knew what it was.

And so they were like, there's people at the doors, go find them. And I was just moving. And I was like, I, I think this is what I want. And then even through like the ups and downs of life, I never forgot that night.

So even when I was tempted to kind of walk away or when I was tempted to say, maybe I was too rash or maybe I was an emotional kid that night always comes back to me. I always think about that. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. Um, all right. David is not on screen, but David's been here for about seven years. David, can you tell us a little bit about what you're going to do? I got you. I got you, Dave. You don't need to like, I'm going to just put it in later. Oh, I see what you're doing. Okay.

This is actually pretty fine. Um, so I've been, let's see, I've been saved since seven and I've been in church pretty much my whole life. You know, ever since I knew, um, ever since I was born, my parents were taking me to church and I went to a local church and I was like convinced, you know, this is, this is where it's at. This is, you know, this is the best church in the world.

Nothing can ever come close. And I started working at Chick-fil-A with, um, with some friends and a friend that I became really close to at Chick-fil-A invited me to his church and he was like, Hey, my church is Clearview church. I think you need to come.

I think you need to, you know, just see what we do. We have this many services. You can come to the eight o'clock or the nine o'clock and then go to your church at 11. And he kept asking me, he was like repeatedly, and I was like, okay, I need to just get this guy off of my back and I need to go to church with this guy. So I went to one of the services and I like, I don't, every time I talk about it, I still vividly remember I came in, they were playing from the inside out, um, and hearing the guitar and hearing John sing worship. And then Dr. Shaw gets up and my instant thought is I have never seen this guy in my life. Like I felt like I knew everybody in Henderson and I was like, I've never seen this guy. And I was like, well, let's just see, let's just see what the preaching is like. And he started talking and I was blown away.

I was not expecting anything that he said or anything that happened that day. And I was like, well, I think my church is still better, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna just comment. I'm just going to come at eight o'clock. I'm going to come at the eight, eight 30 service and started coming at the eight 30 service. And then eventually, hold on. Just if I understand this right, you were at this point now going to two different churches.

Yes. You're going to, you're going to two services on a Sunday. I would go to, um, and Wednesday night. I mean, I was living for church. You were destined to be on the church.

All right, go ahead. Um, and I like, since I was raised in church and my parents are very much about serving in church, I'd always served in a church. So I started coming here at eight o'clock and then that switched to 11 and I would go to the other church on Wednesday nights and serve. And then eventually I was like, I know this is talking about God and money, but I can't serve two places.

So I need to make it, I need to make a switch. And I felt like God was really calling me to be here at Clearview. So I interned for a year, maybe a year and a half.

And he just came in and said, you don't have to pay me, but I'm going to work. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, I've never seen anything like that. That was my story. And I've been here and I got hired on after about a year and a half and it's been the most fulfilling, most blessing thing I've ever done or God has ever led me to do. So I can't express enough how grateful I am for this place. That's great. All right. So that, that leads me then to my next set of questions, which is, and I want to set this up a little bit. Last time I was here, gosh, maybe five years ago and, um, and Dr. Shaw was driving me and John, who was here with me at the time, John Mead, my, my colleague at the seminary back to the airport. And I said to him, somebody needs the effect on the way. Wow. I've been on, you've got, you've got a really stellar staff there and they seem to really get along and work really well.

And he said, yes, I'm really blessed. And I said, they're also pretty young. And I said, they've got a lot of energy. Like how are you kind of going to keep them from burning out, but also like encourage them to grow. You know, a lot of people, a lot of listeners may not know, but a lot of pastors and say, and assistant pastor role are just looking for that next opportunity.

Right. They want to become the senior pastor. So they're just kind of biding their time doing the best they can, but they're waiting for that next gig. And I'm not going to ask you to spill the beans.

Maybe one of you is, and you're not telling me, but you seem to be pretty happy here. So I want Abaddon, I want first Abaddon to tell us a little bit about how do you manage your staff? Like what do you do to help keep them happy?

Because these guys are energetic and they're all pretty creative too. So how do you manage that without having them running in a hundred different directions and nothing gets done. And then I'm going to turn it to the, to the, to the rest of the staff and say, what do you all do as a staff?

What does Abaddon do well? What, what does the church do well that keeps you happy? Does that make sense? Well, I would say you have to do life together because it's not about I'm the senior pastor or lead pastor or whatever title we're giving now to, to that, that one guy, you know, one person up on top, you have to do life together. So Nicole and I, we made that decision a long time ago that this is our home. This is our life. We, we have made that choice that this is where we're going to be for the rest of our life.

And God has blessed us. But now if we're going to go far, we need people to go with us. If you want to go, you know, fast, go by yourself. You want to go far, take others with you. And we wanted to, we want to go far. And so the only way to do that is to get close. And so we spent a lot of time together past two years with the pandemic every Friday night.

I mean, we came together and we would order dinner or cook dinner here and spend time because those were probably. And I just want to, so let's just know, and that was with all their kids, right? Oh, everybody. Yes. Cause cause Ryan, you've got how many? Five five. And John, I've got, I've one and one on the way, but none during the pandemic. Yeah.

Okay. But we felt like if we didn't do that and my daughter, Rebecca, who was on staff at the time, she said that we have to bring everybody together. We have to be connected. And that made a huge difference because they were being, you know, bombarded by every direction, family, friends, the world, social media. If listeners don't know being a pastor during the pandemic was about the hardest job you can have. Cause no matter what decision you made, half your church is going to be really upset.

Right. And we felt that too, you know, but praise God here, it was not quite as hot half, but so spending time together, going places together, doing things together, and then to help them see that success is to see you, you and your family finish. Well, it's not just another step. It's not just that I'm going to now be a senior pastor. Now I'm going to be, it's to finish well together to see your kids grow up, following God, not going off the deep end. They'll have their crisis.

They don't have their moment of struggle, but they'll come back to the way. Yeah. Do you want that? And that's been what I've told these guys, if you want that, then this is the way and we're going to work together. All right. So I'm going to turn it now to the, to the other guys and say, from your vantage, what do you feel like you, you all have done really well here at Clearview that's made you work so well together?

The thing, the thing I think that, especially I appreciate about Dr. Shah is Dr. Shah is not blinded by vision. If that makes sense. What I mean by that is, is there's not, and there's not a culture of, Hey, listen, this is happening one way or the other. If you don't get it done, then someone else will come in.

That's not the culture here. And that's very intentional. What I like about that is there's, I feel like a lot of pastors or a lot of even just business leaders, organization leaders there, that, that destination that we think success looks like, that's the end goal. If I have to drag you there, I will.

If you, if you depart sayonara, if I have to run you over. Right. Right. I will.

What I like about Dr. Shah and what I appreciate and what gives me energy is that, that he is willing to have those conversations where it's like, Hey, listen, if it's too much, that's fine. We'll put the book off another year. We'll put the album off another six months.

It's okay. Yeah. Take the time that you need. Get, you know, get your mind right. If we need to, if we need to do less every week or if we need to put things in their proper place, let's get that right first. Then the products come. Then the, because as like someone who produces my, my thing is like this album has to come out on this date no matter what. Yeah. This book has to be out. It's been like a year since we've released anything. So it has to come out.

And I appreciate about Dr. Shah is that he realizes that the team, our unity and our cohesiveness comes first. Yeah. That stuff will follow. Okay. And a lot of times I need to be reminded of that because I'm not driven.

You're more of the driven kind of let's get it done driven, driven. Yeah. Especially with the things that, that I think are important. Yeah. Sometimes I have to be, I have to be like, Oh yeah, other things are important too.

That's one of my weaknesses. Okay. All right.

That's Ron. You want to add anything to that? So I think for me, my answer is, is twofold. The first has to do with really more like day to day in the office type stuff. Dr. Shah is, he, for me, he is first and foremost, a mentor. He, he will take the time. Like, like John said, there are things that have to get done and there are, there are, you know, projects that have to knock out and there, there are things that have to take place. But Dr. Shah has taken the time over the course of the past, you know, eight years that I've been here and we've sat down and had conversations about life and about what it means to be in ministry, what it means to be a husband, what it means to be a father, what it means, what it looks like to bring your family alongside in ministry. We've gone out for lunch and have those conversations. We've read books together on leadership and it's much more than just here are your tasks.

I need you to do this. It's, I want to help you grow as an individual. And just that care is, is, I mean, it's, it's changed my life and I don't use that phrase lightly.

It has transformed me as an individual and as a man. And the second part of that is really more the family side of things. So Sundays are busy. We've got services that get, need to get knocked out.

A lot of times we'll have a meeting in the afternoon and then, you know, we've got youth group that night, busy stuff during the, during the day. But without fail, when, as we've been here, Dr. Shaw has taken the time to sit down and play with my kids and wish them a happy birthday and go watch my kids play sports. And I mean, just things that he didn't have to do. I mean, we would have not lost anything had he not done those things, except that's that layer of unity that has led Elizabeth and I and our family to this family. I mean, this is, this is family for us.

And so little things can be smoothed out along the way. But at the end of the day, I mean, these, these are my family members. That's, that's great. So I mean, I feel pressure at this point to say, do you have any job openings? But I'm not going to, David, you want to jump in on any of that?

Yeah. The whole time everybody else was talking, I was really just trying to think, think through the best way to answer that's the most like truthful. And I think the thing that really is, what I love about this place is the family aspect. Like everybody else has said, I love that, you know, everybody really truly loves each other.

We really truly get along. And there are times where it's like, okay, I'm frustrated with this because this happened. But in the long run, it's like, I can't stay like that because this is my family.

This is the people that not only I serve with, but I live with, and I really truly do love them. And you were kind of asking, you know, what does, what does Dr. Shah do as a leader that helps me want to stay and helps me want to continue doing what we do, working hard, but also having fun. And it's, I'm kind of echoing what Ryan said, but it's just been that, that mentorship, you know, I've been here since I was 16. I think it's been since I was 16, I was here and I don't know if I can even count the number of times that I've just popped up at Dr. Shah's house and ate dinner with them just because, cause I'm just like, I'm hanging around town. I finish at the gym and then I'm like, I don't really want to go home right now. So I'm just like, I'm going to go to Dr. Shah's house.

I don't sleep on the couch. Oh gosh. Yeah.

I don't even like, I don't even call ahead. And there's just like a relationship there that's, it's, it's a mentor. It's, I'm not trying to be too emotional or too weird, but it's almost like a father type relationship that I see that has helped me grow and helped me learn. And that has fostered this, this love for this place.

Cause I see how much he loves it. I see how much Ryan and John love this place and what they do. And I'm like, this is such an awesome place that is touching everybody's lives, is touching the lives of the people that we impact, is touching our lives and helping us grow. And it just makes me want to serve and put Christ first.

Cause that's what this place is all about. So, amen. That's great. Wow.

All right. But it's not all roses. As good as this all sounds, I know it's not all roses cause it's ministry. So I would love, love to go around again and say, and ask, would you share with listeners maybe what is the most surprising or unexpected difficulty that you face in your particular position in the ministry that maybe either a person just who attends church and is part of a church and serves in a church, but isn't a pastor wouldn't expect or, or maybe that you didn't expect before you became on a pastoral step.

Does that make sense? So, and then, and then as you think about that, maybe what are some of the ways that you have found to address that difficulty or what gets you through it? I know I'm going to start just to get things rolling.

Okay. A little bit and say, I don't know if Abaddon feels this way, but most preachers, Monday morning is their lowest point in the week. There's sort of a joke among pastors that you should never, you should never make any big decisions on Monday morning because you're feeling really down about your sermon on Sunday. You just feel like I didn't do a good enough job. I didn't do the passage justice or that illustration totally bombed or whatever.

And I don't know if Abaddon feels that way, but, but definitely pastors have that the Monday morning blues a lot of times. And so just as anybody got one yet that you're ready to share, like what's, what's the most surprising difficulty for you? For me, it was well, I actually, I actually have to, I don't want to hog all the air time, but this is your chance, man.

I came from a background of music at the second I got saved at 15, I started learning guitar and I started learning music theory and I was, I was really absorbed in it. I loved it because no one can argue it. No one has an opinion on whether the key of G has these flats and sharps. No one can argue that there's no opinions going around. Now you've got creative stuff, but generally, especially in Christian music, you've got this soundscape.

Everybody agrees that this is good or this is bad. Leading people was something I was not prepared for. I was never, you know, I was in a Christian band with my friends and we traveled around, but it was a, it was four guys. It wasn't a group of like 30 musicians, all of whom with different musical backgrounds and they're like, well, we were going to open it like this.

And so at like 21, I had these dudes that were like 60, 65, they've been playing ever since before my parents were married telling me this is how we're playing it. And now I'm in a position where I have to say, no, we're going to do it like this. I was not ready to lead people. I was not ready to lead opinionated people who love their craft.

But that kind of feeds into the second thing is that I learned that disagreements are very rarely personal. And that developed in me a sense of trust that even with, with us, I think we, we a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about the album art for this, for this radio show. And we were talking about, you know, we're going to go, we're going to set up a photo shoot. We're going to get Dr. Shah looking nice, looking suave. We're going to have a nice library background, warm lighting, black shirt instantly. Ryan's like, no, we're not doing a black shirt. And I have this image in my head and I'm starting to get ruffled and I'm like, no black shirt. He's going to look sleek. He's going to look suave. That's not going to look good on Dr. Shah.

We're not doing a black shirt. It's easy when you first start to walk away feeling ruffled, like he attacked me. My very identity is under attack. And it took maturing and a lot of, I mean, even coaching from Dr. Shah to come to that place where it's like, Hey, he cares about this radio show. He wants it to be the best that he can.

And that's not something that I would have had early on. And I think sometimes people who are in the ministry may not realize this, but in, in maybe the, the, the sort of normal working world, you can be passionate about whatever the company's mission is, but it never rises to the level of God's mission. But in ministry, it almost always does, right? Cause we're, we're not just doing stuff. We're not just selling widgets here, right? We're trying to serve the Lord. And so people's opinions can give an even more ratcheted up. They can invest even more of themselves in it because they feel like I'm not just doing this to get a paycheck.

I'm doing this to serve the Lord. And that can make the conflict even more severe sometimes. I think for me, that was the biggest thing was that people are just as invested as you and they will make it known. And you, if, and it's not something when that does come into conflict, my immediate thought is to just back off, okay, whatever you want.

That's fine. And learning not to do that. Still have to lead them. Don't you still have to lead or like in Ryan and I's case, we have to come together.

We have to come together and say, okay, let's compromise. Let's find out what is going to look best. In that case, Dr. Schadler says, guys, I'm wearing white.

Dr. Schadler was like, look, I'll bring a white shirt and a black shirt. It's a stinking shirt. All right.

Who else has got something? So I think for me, mine, mine's kind of the opposite of yours, John. Mine is that where we have to come with consensus practically on the air. For me growing up in church and both of my parents always volunteered in church. We were just kind of, that was, that expectation was set for us in early age. That was just what you do. You just go to church, you pick a ministry, you serve, you pick several ministries, you're involved there. So starting in a, in a leadership role in a church and having to, to get volunteers to catch that same passion. Because for me, I, in my head, this is the most important thing. It was second nature to me. I don't understand why you're not like, you're knocking on the doors asking what you can do next.

And we are very blessed here at Clearview. We have volunteers who come out for every event, who serve faithfully, but just trying to, the volunteers that I'm responsible for, helping them see this is important and here, here's why it's important. Here's why it deserves your time. That took a little bit of learning for me. It was, it was a source of kind of some frustration at the beginning. And it was sitting down with Dr. Shaw who had been doing this a lot longer than me and saying, why don't people understand this? And Dr. Shaw was like, okay, you have to understand their background, where they're coming from.

And I was like, I don't want to do that. That does not compute. But just sitting down and having those conversations, really, I mean, it boils down to the same thing, learning how to lead people.

I understand how to lead teenagers for the most part, how to lead students, but leading adults is a different ballgame and learning the nuances and how to do that, how to do that well. Being a shepherd is easy if you don't have any sheep. That's right.

Or the sheep are tiny and they can't run away from them. Okay. There you go. Dr. Shaw, have you got one? David, you want to jump in?

Yeah. I think, I think, uh, if I go ahead and go, we'll save the best for last because I know that I think it is. But, um, for me, I want to, I want to preface what I'm going to say, um, by saying, by no means am I trying to be like, uh, like woe is me. Like I'm so spiritual. Cause I don't like those kinds of people.

I don't like people that are like overly spiritual for the sake of getting attention or seeming like they have it all together or whatever. But the biggest challenge in ministry has been not necessarily leading other people, but leading myself and like, like myself, because there are so many things that, that I've, I've had to learn and I've had to challenge myself where in the moment where I'm trying to actually learn it, you know how people are like, you know, when you go through something difficult, you know, that God has given you a trial so that you can grow this certain aspect. Well, when I'm in that trial, that's not what I'm thinking. I'm like, why is this happening? Why did you let this happen to me?

Like what is happening right now? And actually challenging myself to trust God and to, and to grow, um, has been the biggest, biggest difficulty. So not necessarily leading others, but leading myself and knowing that, you know, what I'm doing is making a difference.

It matters. And I have to be, I have to be the person that the Bible has called me to be. I have to lead myself to be that.

I can't afford to be anything different because if I am, then how many other people are going to, are going to suffer because of that. So that's, that's been the biggest one. One of the hard things in ministry can be you're so focused on other people's spiritual growth that you neglect your own. And so it's sometimes has to be a very concerted battle to say, I'm going to fight for time. If it's time or energy or whatever, to, to actually take some time with the Lord, be in your own Bible, you know, that kind of thing. All right. We saved the best for last. Oh, I don't know.

I think these guys have really given some really good stuff. Um, I would say you can't put leadership or shepherding or whatever, uh, on cruise control. You have to constantly come and tinker with it.

So there, I'm a very self-motivated person, always been that way God has designed me. And, you know, sometimes my frustration is, why can't you see that? That should have been, I don't, you don't need me to tell you that just do it. That needs to be done.

Why is not, and then to back away and go, okay. Okay. I need to now also provide training.

I need to also do this. So constantly doing that number, um, has been a learning experience for me over the years and that I don't think that'll ever stop to keep, keep messing with it in a good way. Yeah. Sometimes leadership sometimes we're going to move forward. Sometimes here's a vision. Forget about the vision. Let's work on this issue first.

Let's, let's go spend some time with your family. Let's work that out. So you cannot, you know, as a pastor, you cannot just say, let's just do this. And that's it. Or this is the one principle. Yeah. I want to build on. Oh, good. Yeah. No, there's so many things.

Yeah. I want to build on that. What you were talking about, because with that comes sacrifice.

And I think part of my experience and I think I can speak for all of us, um, is that, is that you learn to recognize that sacrifice sacrifice that you don't even see. Cause you were, I mean, we were talking earlier about your, um, and not too earlier today, but earlier on the show, we were talking about your PhD work. Um, and you, what year did you start? Uh, it started in 2000. That's what I'm saying. It started in 2000.

You got it in 2019. So we can look at it on the surface and we can look past everything and say, wow, it took you 20 years to get a PhD. Or you can look at the truth of it and said, this man put 20 years of his life on hold so that I could, to build a foundation that I'm going to benefit from.

Right. My son has a church, a strong church to grow up in because he put his dreams on hold and worked on it. You know, something that should have taken maybe what, two, three years.

I put it aside for 20 years, or he put it aside for 20 years so that I could have, I mean, a strong found, I don't have to build a church from the ground up. I'm working and benefiting from something that someone else did. Um, and that's something that I think a lot of people don't see. And you know, what I love about that is, you know, as a, as an academic and a professor, um, the things that people like to praise me for are the things like publishing a book, you know, or a great lecture or whatever.

But I sometimes like to remind myself, or I ask myself a diagnostic question. I say, Peter, what's going to really make a difference in the end. And the way I get to that answer is to say, who's going to show up at my funeral.

And what are they going to say? And it's not going to be, my books aren't going to come. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's right. But, and, and Abaddon's PhD is not going to come. Nope.

But his staff is. Absolutely. Um, and I think, you know, the legacy that we live is really what kind of legacy do we live with people, God has placed in front of us to minister to and to help. And so that's a really, that's a powerful testimony.

I think to Abaddon's, uh, to the work of the spirit in his life, to God's grace in his life, that he's been able to do that and made such an impact on so many. I want our listeners to know, by the way, a couple of things. One is Clearview is growing. They're, they are soon going to, I think, be starting their third sanctuary. Is that right? That's right. Building our third sanctuary.

Yeah. So right next to us is their first sanctuary. And then the one they use now is next door. And they're going to be building a third one next to it because they're growing. And to just give you a sense of how healthy and, and well run this place is tomorrow, they're expecting about a hundred kids for a fall festival.

And these gentlemen all look super chill now. So they've done, they're doing something right. Okay. Now I told you I was going to hijack this whole episode, which I've done. We've gone past the time.

That's the show. I do want to bring us to a close, but here's what I want to do. I want you to think if there's a listener out there who is thinking about ministry, but they're on the fence because they're like, man, ministry doesn't pay well.

I could go get a job and make a lot more money. People can be hard to work with. Okay.

Not every church is clear view where they have a pastor like Abaddon. Who's going to invest so heavily in the staff beneath him. What would you say to that person?

Who's thinking about it and really not sure. What would you say either here's what you should think about or here's why you should do it. Does that make sense? You are not going to feel good in the beginning, not even in the beginning, you're not going to feel good in the present. Sometimes you will, but the rewards, all the rewards I've seen are looking backwards. I recognize the benefits and the rewards when I look back at the growth, but it's not something where I leave every day and I just think, man, how blessed am I?

Sometimes I do when I sit down, I do my morning devotionals, but after a long day going home, that drive home, coming home, just unloading, it's very rare that I recognize the blessings in there. A lot of times what I think people do is they look at it and they say, you know what? I haven't felt happy in the present for a long while.

I'm in the wrong place. But when they look backwards and say, look where I was, look how much I've grown, people fail to do that. I failed to do that plenty of times. I think the best thing that I wish someone would have told me is, hey, look, it's going to be difficult and it's going to feel difficult pretty much the entire time. To feel good and to understand that assurance, you have to look back. You have to. And see the Lord's work and what He's done for you. Yeah, that's right. I would say for me, if someone's listening and they are on the fence about like, hey, this is something I could do.

I'm not quite sure. I would say get involved. Find a way that you can plug in, get close with the staff, get close with the key leaders and make yourself accessible. Be there, be involved, be present in what's going on. And that will quickly determine for you if this is what you want to do or if this is, hey, this is something I like volunteering in, but this is not where I see my life. Because if that is what you were called to do, if God has a calling in your life for ministry, you won't be happy doing anything else. You'll be discontent anywhere you find yourself other than working in church. You'll be like David, you'll show up at a church and say, I'll work for free.

I'll be here. That's true. This looks fun. Like sitting around in the arm chairs with the microphones, chill and in the studio, this looks fun. Anybody can look at this on the outside and say, I want to do that with my life. But 15 minutes prior to the show, these guys were out there putting the huge tents on.

Not glamorous. I guess for me, it's kind of what Ryan said. I don't want to echo that too much, but if you really feel like you're called into ministry, if you feel like that's what God wants you to do, then start doing it. No matter if you're getting paid, start doing it. No matter if you feel like this is the right place I need to be, just go to your church, whether that's clear view, whether that's somewhere else and start serving, start getting involved. And then once you do that, if God has called you to do that, he will begin to make away into that ministry. He will begin to show you, he'll use the people at your church to lead you into that, whatever God is using you to do in ministry. So that's my biggest thing. And I hope I'm not stealing this from you, Dr. Shaw, but if you can do anything else, do it. Don't go into ministry if you feel like you can do anything else and be happy because ministry is something that if God doesn't call you to do it, if you feel like this is just something I want to do for fun, it's going to be miserable.

It has to be something that you really want to do and something you really love to do. Well, you didn't steal it from me. That's Charles Fortune. Thank you, Mr. Charles. And everybody steals from him.

He steals from the Puritans. So anyways, I would say these guys have really hit the nail on the head. You know, but there's, what I want to emphasize is we only talk about the negative, the ministry, the sacrifice and all that. It's a lot of fun too. So much enjoyment, so much joy that you get and tough times too, but so much joy that you get in doing ministry and so much happens. You know, don't worry about money. God will provide the money.

I mean, we're talking about opening a college here that's coming not very far away. And so God's going to provide, we don't know how it's going to happen, but we are putting things in place, putting little pieces together and God is working. So it's so much fun to sit there and dream about those things. It's a joy and a privilege, isn't it? I mean, I sometimes remind myself as a pastor that it's a privilege to get to lead God's people.

It's a responsibility. Well, guys, I want to thank you so much for giving me so much of your time today. I hope this has been a fun episode to listen to, a bit of a chance to pull back the curtain and hear from the guys who are normally asking the questions and get some answers from them. And if you're happy to be in the listening area, you're near Henderson, North Carolina, let me encourage you to come check out Clearview Church.

It's a very good, healthy church. And you get to meet these guys who do a good job. And as far as I can tell, have a lot of fun doing that. Yeah. Amen. Speaking of a lot of fun, Ryan, before we go, I know we're past time, but do you have any last minute advice to leave our listeners with? Last minute advice? Yeah, man.

Uh, I do actually. Last minute advice. You know, sometimes where you go, you have to be like presentable. You have to be put together. Have some silly socks.

Yeah, there you go. Have some silly socks. Today I have black wool on today. Guys, I forgot you told me I had top gun socks.

Oh my goodness. It can be patterns. It can be characters. Just, I mean, you gotta have a little bit, a little bit of silliness in your outfit. Plus, you can cover it with the pants.

And it goes with anything. You can be a billionaire, but people love silly socks. Silly socks.

That's my advice. All right. That's great. Get you some silly socks. They're available. Anywhere socks are sold. Nice.

Anywhere socks are sold. All right. Thank you guys. We love you guys. And we'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.