Homosexuality

Welcome back listeners.

Today is Tuesday, November the 1st, 2022. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.

And you're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abaddon Shaw. I was texting. I was texting. I'm so sorry.

I forgot I was on camera. Should we just keep going? Should we just keep going? Let's just keep going. Let's keep going. Sorry. That threw me off. I'm sorry.

Let, let me, let me take that back. Okay. Are you finished your text?

I'm finished. Okay. Yeah. I was texting a praise team member. I apologize.

And you're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abaddon Shaw, the daily show that engages in mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's right. That was really funny. Sorry. I forgot we were on camera. Oh man. Go for it.

You can find us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com or if you have a question for Dr. Shaw, anything you'd like to write in and suggest that we talk about, send us a text at 252-582-5028. You can see that we're already good at texting. Yes.

Absolutely. I looked over at our engineer, David, and he was like, why would you do this? I just got all the recording stuff set up.

That's funny. I got it all going and now we have to start over. I was like, let's not start over. Just keep going. Keep going. You can also email us. If texting isn't your thing, you can also email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com.

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It really does help. Like a lot of people, it's easy to look at it and say, oh, well, they're just asking for money. We're really asking for support. We're really asking for a partnership. Just like Ryan said, we're asking for partnership knowing that the gospel is being spread. See, we can make, we can buy all these cameras and we can buy all the recording equipment and make the show, but without people to listen to it and people to spread, we're just talking into open air. Right.

Nobody's lives are actually being impacted. So your donations and your contributing to the kingdom in that way, especially financially, in that way makes a big impact because now more people are hearing the gospel because of what you've done. That's right. We appreciate everybody who's donated so far.

That's right. And before we start the show, like we've done, we want to remind you about the upcoming elections coming up on November the 8th, 2022. So important. We're going to keep this conversation going until election day because it is just so critical that you get out there and vote, vote your conscience, vote biblical values. Let your voice be heard as believers in this upcoming election. So important that you do that. And you guys can help us get that message out again by supporting this podcast, sharing it online, leaving a good review on iTunes and just keeping this discussion alive.

Right. John. I mean, I see that you were distracted earlier with texting, but you seem like you're, you're a little bit more bundled up than the last time I saw you. I am.

How are you? My shoulders are like way up in my ears. I'm like cold. You know, what's funny is I actually had my hoodie on in the last episode.

And I took it off for this one. I'm very tense because it's cold. I don't like this cold weather, man.

Why don't you? Well, we don't like them right now. Nope. This today's what it's not even like super cold yet. But I'm full of dread. I know what's coming. It's the, it's the season of death.

Yes. It's the promise of black, uh, just, just death and decay and all the trees are dying and there's frost in the air and, uh, just the, the spirit of cold is descending upon the world and it's going to spread its icy fingers through just the night. Just the night.

Just the night. See, we're very different people because that is a beautiful picture to me. Just frost all over the ground, just the cold kissing the earth and just that, that crisp air you walk out and you see your breath and see, I think of the ending scene of the shining where Jack Torrance is just buried up to his neck and he's just completely frozen and he's just like miserable. He got what he deserved. That's me.

Yeah. I'm like, I deserve this every year. I'm like, I'm like hanging out with Elsa in the snowdrifts, like in an ice palace and you're Jack Torrance frozen in the snow. What was the, uh, what was that book? What was that book where the little boy, uh, he ended, it ends with him in the snow on the sled. It's like a book where we, I think we all read it in like seventh grade. It was like where it was the giver, it was the giver. I remember the giver read that.

Oh man. Lois Lowry is a good book, but yeah, that's how it ends. He's like in the snow banks and he's like trying to get, he sees like this cottage off in the distance and he's like gets on the sled with his baby and he goes down to it. And so you don't know if that, if that's real or if he's just hallucinating while he freezes to death. And it's like, yikes. Yeah. And that's a seventh grade reading, by the way.

That was like, they, they, they made us read that. Well hopefully we won't be like hallucinating in a snow. Yeah. That's true.

That's true. Well, we're going to bring Dr. Shaw in in just a few minutes. We're tackling a big issue today. Yeah. The issue of homosexuality. We went back and forth on whether or not on how to do this.

Yeah. This was, this was something that we did. We did not, um, we didn't handle this flippantly. We prayed about this and we really went back and forth because this issue is so prevalent in our world today, but we have to be very careful how we handle it or how we talk about it. You know, this is not a conversation that we want to enter into lightly. We know this is something that affects a lot of people, affects a lot of families. Right. Um, and we, you know, it's a very hot button issue in our culture today, especially with the elections right around the corner.

I mean, that plays a big role in how you vote, what, uh, what policies are in place and who you're going to vote for, your beliefs on homosexuality and what the Bible has to say about that play a big role in how you're going to vote in the upcoming election. Um, we're going to bring Dr. Shah in to the studio in just a few minutes to dive into today's discussion. Um, but as we're, as we're talking about this, we know that kind of, you know, questions are firing off in people's minds. So send us those questions, send us those topics that you want us to talk about those things that you want to ask Dr. Shah, text them to two five two five eight two five zero two eight. Or again, you can visit us online at clearview today, show.com we're going to grab, go grab Dr. Shah and we'll be back in just a few minutes. Are you looking for some new worship music to go along with all these amazing shows here on the truth network? But today's your lucky day because Dr. Shah and myself and a lot of the rest of the Clearview staff have been hard at work writing for the last few months and we're very excited to share Clearview's new EP with you together forward. Not only do these songs sound great, but each and every single one of them were born from a place of genuine worship and prayerfully written by our team right here at Clearview Church.

It's available right now on iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, anywhere digital music is sold. So make sure to pick up your copy today and let us know how these songs are helping you, whether they're helping your worship band in your church or just in the car or around in your everyday life, email us at info at clearviewbc.org. You can also support the ministry here at Clearview Church by visiting us online.

That's clearviewbc.org forward slash give. Thanks for listening. We'll be right back to the show. Welcome back to Clearview Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, the show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com or send us a text at 252-582-5028. Before we bring Dr. Shah in for the discussion today, before we dive into today's topic, we want to start this, like we said, on a very firm foundation, on a very biblically based foundation. Dr. Shah actually preached a message based on today's topic and actually tomorrow's topic back in 2021. We want to play a portion of that message for you to kind of frame the discussion for today.

But if you want to listen to that full message, you can find all of his past sermons on our website, clearviewbc.org, or you can find that entire sermon manuscript, his sermon notes on his blog, abaddonshah.com. Let's listen into that message. Aren't all this Sochi sexual orientation change efforts proven to be harmful? The answer is yes and no. You say, well, wait, wait, are you telling me that people cannot change to help them change? This can be dangerous. Well, let me explain that first.

To start with, yes, people can change. You say, how do you know that? Well, the Bible tells me so. First Corinthians chapter six, verse nine, do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God? This is Paul speaking to the church in Corinth. Can you imagine that church in Corinth, I've been to Corinth with Nicole and it was a place where people from everywhere came.

They had the Corinthian, the Isthvian games there. So you had ex-military people, you had business people, you had sailors, you have Greek background and Roman and Persian and Egyptian, all kinds of people in this church. And some of them came from some crazy lifestyles. Do you not know that the unrighteousness, unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites. In case somebody says it's only about male, male, no.

The whole subject is covered, female, female, transgender, everything is covered in this group. But wait, it's not over. Verse 10, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkers, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Now here's the beautiful verse, and such were, can you say it with me? Such were. Change is possible.

Such were. I mean, you have been changed. Change has happened in your life.

And how has the change happened? But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. The gospel has the power to transform lives. That's powerful. Either we believe this or we don't.

Wow. What a message for us. The gospel changes lives, man, that, that statement alone just brings so much hope. Just, just brings so much life back to people. It's just like infusing life, breathing life right back into people who are struggling with this, with this issue and with others. Yeah. But I feel like that's something we need to hear and something that's not often preached from, from pulpits. No, no. People do not preach that from the pulpits and it's a shame. I'm thankful that you did Dr. Shah and if you guys listening or just joining us, you know, Dr. Abaddon Shah is a PhD, New Testament textual criticism professor at Carolina university author full-time pastor, and he's the host of today's show.

That's right. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio today. We're glad that you're here today. We're glad that you're here every day. I mean, I don't want this to be like, we're glad that you're here today, but not others. I'm glad that you're here every day, but I pick and choose the days.

I'm just joking. But especially today because this issue is so important, right? It's so important how we think about this, how we approach this, how we talk about this, what we believe about this issue of homosexuality and then, and the, the effects of our beliefs are wide reaching. Right. I hope everybody realizes that, that messages like this are not preached thumping on the pulpit or shouting and screaming or, or saying it to put people in their place.

They're, they're coming from a heart that really genuinely cares about people. Right. I believe that's how Paul was when he said, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Sometimes we love to say that like a thunderclap, but that's not a, I don't believe that's how Paul really wrote it. Right.

And I think that statement, it probably came from a heart that really cared about his own people and also the Gentile world, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Right. A sense of brokenness about it. You know?

Yeah. I think it's important and I really appreciate you taking that avenue of conversation because you often hear the opposite from the other side is that Christians are full of hate. They're full of bigotry. They're full of, um, just, they want control and they want to control your sexuality and your identity. And it's just not true. Right.

It just isn't true. It comes from a place of compassion. Um, you know, and it should be that Christians are like, I know you've said this from the pulpit. Christians should be the most compassionate people.

Right. You know, Christians should have that Godly compassion that still tells the truth, but meets people where they are and says, Hey, you know, the gospel can change. I would add to what you just said, you know, one act of compassion, I would say a big act of compassion is telling the truth.

Amen. Somebody is hurting and you just kind of pat them on the back or just caress them and say, Oh, it's okay. No big deal.

You're all right. But what if it's somebody's bleeding to death? What they need to hear is, Hey, something is not right. We need to get you to a hospital.

We need to call 911. We need something that truth is compassionate, not just, you know, patting them on the back and saying, Oh, it's okay. While they're bleeding to death, you know, one of the things that I think, especially with this sermon, you know, the, the responses that I heard were, um, gratefulness, you know, people were, were grateful that you told the truth because one of the things that we often hear is that it's, you know, from the, from the opposition, people who, you know, either struggle with homosexuality or they feel like it's not a big deal.

They often bring in the status of the relationship as though that's that they're like, they'll say, you know, are you really telling me that God would rather you be in a dysfunctional relationship with a woman than a loving and consensual relationship with a man? And I felt like, and again, I want to kind of echo what you said, Ryan, that excerpt from the sermon is not going to do justice to the whole thing. You really should go and listen to the entire thing. Please.

Absolutely. The all again, all those sermons are available on our website, clearviewbc.org, our church website. Uh, you can also find those manuscripts on Dr Shaw's blog, abaddonshaw.com.

So please go check those out, share them with your friends and family, share them with someone that you think may need them. But I liked it because it wasn't, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I liked it because it was something that you addressed in that sermon that the, the status of that relationship, no matter how loving it actually is, that doesn't really enter into God's design of what relationships are supposed to be. Right. You know, when people read the Solomon Gamora incident in the old Testament or the Levitical laws or Romans chapter one that talks about the last step on the way down, right? Is homosexuality. We tend to say, or people tend to say, even Christian theologians tend to say that, yeah, we know what they're talking about, but no, no, we're talking about consensual committed caring gay relationships are okay. They're not a sin. And you go, no, that, that is still a sin. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. It's not based on, um, commitment or consent or care. It's it's a sin. Another thing I feel like that's brought up a lot and you talk about this in the, in the message as well is that I was born this way. If God, if this is a sin, then why did God create me this way?

Why am I this way? It's not, I mean, it ties back to the whole identity thing. It's not a choice that I've made. It's who I am. So how do we, how do we approach that?

How do we, you know, speak into that with balancing both truth and compassion, you know, in recent years, people from both sides of the aisle, those who believe that homosexuality is a sin and those who believe that, no, that's perfectly fine. That's just how you are. Yes. That's in your genetic makeup. They both have come to the understanding that to say that it is part of my genetic makeup is, is not conclusive and more and more are saying that. And I appreciate that honesty because, you know, a few years ago it was almost claimed that, Hey, that's it. Yeah.

10% are, you know, the Kinsley report or 10% of people are, and you just need to acknowledge them. And at least the truthfulness is there that we really don't know. Now we can talk about this gene and that gene and, and, uh, uh, the brain plasticity and all that stuff. Okay.

But we still don't know for sure if it's really coming from within or not. Yeah. And is it a learned behavior that's, so that's, I'm glad you said that because I feel like over the past couple of decades, or at least as long as this has been in our cultural, um, conversation, I guess, is it has changed. There's been a lot of shifts and one of them, I guess, two of them really that I've seen is we've moved from this discussion of tolerance, because I remember specifically, it was all about tolerance. Listen, you may not ever agree with it, but you just have to tolerate. You have to put up with people.

That's no longer on the table. It's now acceptance celebration. That's where we are in our culture. There's also been this shift of, like you said, it's, it's shifted from a behavior to now it's an identity. So you, so, cause I mean, I can attack a behavior. Somebody can attack a behavior and not be, you know, wrong for doing that. But now that it's someone's identity, and I'm saying that in quotes, uh, for those of you who can't see, even now that it's someone's identity, now you're attacking a person right now. And so now if you attack me, there's calls for me to be hostile back, right?

To start with, no one is attacking anybody, right? I have friends who are in the homosexual lifestyle. Very good friends. They're nice to me and I'm nice to them. At the same time, they also know that I don't condone their lifestyle, right? Although I treat them with dignity, with honor, with respect, we laugh, we talk, uh, but they also know you don't agree with this because based on your biblical convictions, you think this is a sin, but they understand that, uh, but now, and, and I'll never disrespect them. Even when they're with their partners, I'll never say anything rude or obnoxious or hateful.

Never. In fact, if someone tried to do that, I would step in and protect them. So that's, I appreciate you saying that so much. I'm going to cut you off, but there's this picture out there that Christians are just like, kind of like either ambivalent toward this or just waving pitchforks, like, right? Like leading a lynch mob. And we're trying to purge gay people.

That's not at all. But to then take it to the next level and say, now you have to celebrate this, right? You have to approve my lifestyle. My friends know that I don't approve them, right? I don't approve that lifestyle, but I do love them and I respect them.

And, um, you know, in America, you have the right to do that, but keep in mind, uh, to take it to the next level of say, Oh, this is marriage and now you have to endorse this. And for you to say that this is a sin is hate speech. That's what we're talking about, right? That's a whole different issue. It's a very different issue because it's now entering into compelled speech. We can disagree all day long and no one, and you know, you, you do have some who are like, Hey, listen, I really don't care what you think.

This is my life. All right, fine. Go do your thing. You are, like you said, those who are very militant and who you are going to accept them or there's going to be problems and it's just not conducive to the conversation.

It's just not helpful at all. Right. So, and then, then to put it in the category of racism, that this is no different than racism or interracial marriage, I think we're talking about two very different issues that are happening here. Absolutely.

And to, to, to say that you are being treated unfairly because of your personhood versus you're being told, Hey, no, you know, I cannot agree with that lifestyle. Right. What is, there's a huge difference.

I mean, think about the civil rights movement, you know, the, the, the rights that African Americans had to, to be able to drink from this water fountain or to, to sit and eat in, in a restaurant. What a different situation. Right. And you're saying, I am in a homosexual lifestyle to say, well, you have to approve this. Right. I mean, you're not being kept from any water fountain.

You're not being kept from any restaurant or any privilege that you can get. What are you, what we're saying is we just can't approve that in our conscience and in our convictions because of the Bible. Yeah. So I think to, to, to compare these things, racism and sexual issues where we were not only getting into a logical fallacy on many levels, maybe one day we can talk about all those fallacies. Oh yeah.

Cause they are many. Yeah. But there, but it's, it's not fair. I agree. Yeah. I agree. You know, one thing I wonder is I wonder why this is the sin.

Why is this the one that we're willing to die on? Like, like I get, okay. Like for instance, say I I'm a liar, right? Um, I, I tell lies, not, not saying I do, I'm just saying, say that I do because I'm a human being and that's a sin that I have. Right.

So why would I fight say, okay, let's just, I'm going to accept it. My identity is that of a liar. And so I'm not going to seek change because this is who I am.

Yeah. I wonder why this one is so ingrained into, okay. I have homosexual urges. That's who I am.

And I'm going to act on it because that's who I am. I wonder why this one in particular became, because I don't feel that with, with people who struggle with lying or greed or lust, you know, people who struggle with all these different sins. It's very rare that they say, this is my identity now and you can't attack my greed. You can't attack my lust.

You can't attack my, my propensity lie. I wonder why this one, right? Well, we're headed in that direction.

Yeah. So lying and cheating and, and hate are becoming part of our identity. But to back up here, why is this one sin, the sexual sin so important or, or so detrimental to a person or society? Think about it. How did God make us in the book of Genesis, it tells us God made us in his image, male and female. He made them right. So when we talk about how God made us male and female, he made them. We are made in his image. So for us to deny how God has made us, right, we're kind of getting into the gender identity issues too. Now, uh, if that's okay, I mean, we're simply saying, God, not only that you made a mistake, but you are a mistake because we are made in his image. Wow.

I didn't think about that. So you just said that. Right.

Did you make a mistake, but you are a mistake, right? Because male and female, he made them, but we are made in his image, right? And there's, and I preached a message on that. What does that mean that we are made in his image, male and female? He made them. He relates to us as in masculine, right? And we are to respond to him almost like a feminine.

We're responding to his grace was responding to his leadership. So that's how God has made us. That's interesting.

That's very interesting. Cause we, we typically say that the church is like the bride of Christ and I never really, I always thought that was like poetic, but I didn't realize that there is sort of that masculine feminine sort of, not that God is male because God is spirit, right? Right.

All right. So, so when we need to make sure we distinguish that now we're getting into more theology, how far do you guys want to go? But he has chosen to relate us, relate with us in the masculine, in the sense of leading and protecting and guiding. And so with that in mind, he has created male and female to now live in that relationship in your family unit and build your community, build your, you know, your identity.

So for us to say, uh, it'll be male and male. Think about the ramification for God and humanity relationship. We're on the same level as God, male and male, uh, or female and female where God is responding to us. We're responding to God. We're just impacting each other.

Cannot do that. So I mean, the, the image of God is at the heart of these sexual issues. Not just that, why can't you approve me or why can't you just go along with what I want? Because ultimately you are changing who God is. Wow. That's true. And then it's, it really takes the sin that much deeper. You know, it really puts weight behind what we're doing because it's not just a matter of well, let, just look, just let me sleep with who I want to sleep with and it's not any of your business.

Yeah. You know, it, it does go so much deeper because you are bringing God into it. There are theological issues. There are your view of God is on the line.

There are. And our purpose in the show is not to say anything other than saying this is a sin, right? But human beings have a right to do what they want to do. That's true. Right. This is America. This is a free country.

I have the right to say, I have to now endorse this and celebrate it. Right. I can't do that.

I can't do that. And that's, that's what we're discussing. Right. Absolutely.

What is the, if you, if you had to offer a piece of hope to someone who maybe is struggling in this area or has a loved one who is, what would be the, the word of hope that you would leave them with? The struggle is real and, and for anybody to say that the struggle is not real is, is being very insensitive. So we need to understand that the struggle is real. Right.

The source of the struggle, we're not going to get into where did you learn that or did you have, is it coming from of your family structure where the dad was not as, you know, being a dad or the mom was more dominant. I mean, we can get into all that, but none of those, those discussions ever truly give us the heart of the answer. Right. Right. And actually all we can say is even if you have to struggle with this, if God has called you to salvation, now your life belongs to him.

That's right. Put it on the same level as any of the struggle in your life. You don't say, well, I struggled with this.

I'm just going to go ahead and do this. And God has made me this way. No, if you're a liar, you have to stop lying. That's right.

If you're a cheat, you have to stop cheating. If you are an angry person, which means now through the Holy Spirit, you have to let God build a spirit of compassion and forgiveness and kindness in you. So same thing in this lifestyle, however way it came into your life. You have to let God make you a new creation in Christ. That's right. Wow. And I know there are people out there with the whole sexual orientation change efforts, you know, the social stuff, you know, saying, oh, that's so detrimental, so dangerous to people.

But talking about some weird interventionist program, all we're saying is let God's grace change you from the inside out. That's right. Right. That's right.

Absolutely. What a message. What a message of hope. Thank you so much, Dr. Shaw. If you have, if you have any questions about today's topic or any suggestions for future topics, make sure you let us know by sending us a text at 252-582-5028. Make sure you send those messages in. We're going to read those questions on Friday's episode for the lightning round questions.

Make sure you send those in to us or you can email them to us at contact at ClearyTodayShow.com. And also don't forget through that same website, you can support us financially every gift, every time you give, every time you partner with us through giving, you're making an impact for God's kingdom. And don't think you're not because we have seen and we can't share everything right now, but we will in the days ahead. But we have seen the impact that your gifts are making. Even only what is this episode, like seven? Yep.

Just seven episodes in and we're already seeing God is working a huge way. So thank you for those donations. Thank you for all of your gifts and your partnership.

Absolutely. As we close out today, John, do you have any last minute advice for us? New Holland Coffee. New Holland Coffee. I'm drinking it. I'm drinking it too. I'm drinking it right now. I'm drinking it too.

It costs a little bit more. Absolutely good. And if I can build on that, if you can get just the beans and get a grinder, oh, baby. Oh, superior. Absolutely.

Oh, baby. We did that. We did that. I think we got the beans by mistake one time and we grind it up.

We got the coffee grinder at Dr. Chateau's and he was like, get this from now on. It sounds bougie, but it really does make a difference. It is bougie, but hey, you deserve it. You deserve it.

There you go. You deserve it. You deserve it. Be a little bougie. We love you guys. Thank you so much. You