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So, thank you for that. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring this episode. Let's jump in. When it comes to evangelism, we often think of a destination, a journey, and end point that we're trying to get to, and that is conversion. But evangelism is not a destination; it's a mindset that we live with.
Let's clarify what that means on today's episode of Clearview Today. You're listening to Clear View today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here with our host, Dr. Abbadan Shah. And if you're listening for the very first time today, we want to hear from you. Two five two four two nine six zero six nine.
Just text in the word "today" with any comments or any questions. Anything you'd like to ask for Dr. Shah to talk about here on the Clearview Today Show? You know, Dr. Shah, we have been talking a lot about God.
We've been talking about this mindset of evangelism that we are called to have as Christians. And you know, a lot of times we don't see it as a mindset. We see it as a goal, a destination. I want that person to be saved, and I'll say anything, do anything to make that outcome happen. I mean, I would be happy if people even did that.
Yeah, that's true. Most of the time, people are like living in their own world, more concerned about their own troubles and problems. Yeah, in the back of my mind, I do know that without Jesus, you're lost forever. But how much does that consciously bother me? Do I stay up late wondering what's going to happen to you if you were to die?
Most of us, included in that group, we don't think about that. We just kind of talk about evangelism as a good idea. We ought to do this. We ought important to do this, but do we actually practice it? Not so much.
Yeah, we put we put forward this this this illustration or this illusion, I would rather say, of people who. Do because we know that's what we're supposed to. We know it's a command, and we know that ultimately that's the goal is to get people to come to Christ. But really, our own lives, our own Thoughts, our own problems take over, and we spend so much of our time worrying about that that we don't even worry about evangelism. Or if we do, we do that with the goal rather than this is a lifestyle, this is a mindset that God wants me to have.
You know, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said something that I think is very important if we're going to have this mind shift. He said, "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness." And all these things shall be added unto you. And I know that's difficult when you have a big bill waiting for you, or if you have relationship problems happening in the family, or if you have a physical pain, or some sickness, or some some you know diagnosis that is being you know somebody's you have to go get more. Tests done, and it's just just preoccupying your your mind. You know, in those moments, we we don't think about seeking first the kingdom of God.
Right, but that's what Jesus was saying. You go do my kingdom work. You go out there and build my kingdom. And how do you build my kingdom? You be my witnesses.
You tell the world about me, and I will take care of your needs. I'll take care of. Your struggles and your worries, and so if we're going to have a mind shift, we're going to really have to go to Matthew six thirty three. I believe, seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. What is the motivation that people operate under often when it comes to evangelism?
Like those those who feel the burden to go out and I got to do this. I ought to share the gospel with this person. What what typically motivates a person to do that? I would say. Based on my experience, the people who do share the gospel typically are not doing it as a burden.
I don't see that. I'm sure there are some out there who are doing it out of guilt and shame. Most are genuinely burdened for the lost souls because. People are stubborn. People are self self centered.
So if I am telling you to do something that you really truly don't want to do, to my face, you may say sure, but behind my back, you'll be like, I am not doing that. Yeah.
So I can preach a solid message and really, you know, wag my finger at people about sharing the gospel, and you should be talking to your neighbors and your family and your friends and your coworkers and even your enemies. Tell them about Jesus. And if you don't, they're going to hell. How dare you? And they—they may either resent me outright, or they may be resenting me in their minds and their hearts.
But when they leave the building, either way, they're not going to follow through. They'll find some fault in that thinking, or they may just have this—you know—resentment towards me.
So. Most of those people are not sharing the gospel, anyways. Yeah, the ones who do take that step to say, "Hey, you know what? I need to do that." So I'm walking in this grocery line. I see someone behind me; they're struggling, or they're just, you know, kind of have.
You can just see the lostness in their eyes. Hey, how are you today? I'm doing. I'm good, good. All right.
I mean, it's a beautiful day out there. Yeah, yeah. It's good. It's good. Man, I tell you what, God is good.
And then you you wait to see if they're going to respond. What motivated you to do all that? What motivated you to come out of your comfort zone and make that connection? I don't think it's this guilt or shame. It's more of a Okay, I've been told to do this.
I need to take this step. I feel like this person could be. Let me see what I can do. Yeah.
So, in my experience, most people are not not sharing their faith because of some guilt. They're doing it because.
Somewhere there has been a mind shift. What talk to us a little bit about that mind shift? Because I think a lot of us would share the gospel if we are told to, because we know we're supposed to. But you can only do things for so long without changing how you think. And I know that's a big theme, you know, here at Clearview.
I know it's a big theme, you know, on this show is that if you're not thinking properly, you might do the right thing for a little bit, but isn't sustainable. Maybe talk to us about how to get that mind. Yeah, that's a good, good, good point. I really, and I'm going to back up here. Really enthralled by Western Christianity.
Some people are not.
Some people will will talk about all the bad things in Western Christianity or how we have gotten away from biblical Christianity or the early Church Christianity. All the elements. I don't see like that. I see a lot of good. Over the centuries, that Western Christianity has to offer—not all of it, not all of Western Christendom—but I'm talking about specifically in Great Britain, the revivalistic Christianity that you have to fan the flames of revival, that you have to motivate people again under the providence of God, again, again under the power of the Holy Spirit.
All of that is coming from God to God through God, but you have to motivate people. That is a very, I would say, Western, more specifically, Great Britain Christianity, and I think it's it's needed all over the world. It has sort of come into the American experience. Back in the pre-colonial days, colonial days, and and down through the Civil War period, right up into the twentieth, twenty first century, with Billy Graham and others, that you have to, again, in the power of the Holy Spirit, preaching the Word, motivate people, because it's the nature of the fire to go out. Telling people, hey, get going.
Hey! Don't forget, share the gospel. Tell people about Jesus. I know your life is busy right now. I know there's a lot going on, but don't forget.
That's our. I don't think there's ever going to be a time where people are just going to be. Hey, I got it. I am locked in now for the rest of my life. I don't think it happens that way.
I mean, what do y'all think? I think you said something very telling. It's the nature of fire to go out. I mean, you see that in people throughout history that they're really excited about something. Let's let's take Christianity for the conversation we're having today.
They're really excited, passionate. They get saved. They want to transform the world, but then they share the gospel with somebody and they don't respond positively, or they have an issue in the church that they are attending. And they just kind of they're disillusioned with it, and and maybe they're having a hard time latching onto concepts in Bible study. And then before long, if they're not underneath preaching or they're not connected to a ministry that's helping stoke that fire, they're gonna they're gonna fizzle out.
They're gonna maybe they won't ever walk away from the faith, but they're gonna lose that zeal. They're gonna lose that passion. Yeah, we have lots of things that will distract us from doing that. That's just the nature of life.
So as a pastor. I have to keep coming back to the things that will motivate me. Yeah, I read biographies. I read biographies of of men and women of God, especially in British Christianity, who were were just you know soul winners. They would get out there like missionaries from Scotland, like David Livingstone, going into the heart of Africa.
You know, today we don't talk much about David Livingstone, but back in the 1800s, imagine leaving Scotland, going going into Africa, trying to, you know, map out Africa. I mean, Africa is a huge continent. I mean, huge, and trying to go through all these African jungles and facing wildlife and and you know, violent. Tribes who will kill you in some places eat you alive. You know, it's horrible stuff.
But going anyways, why? Because he was, he felt like he was paving the way for other missionaries to come. His famous statement was, "The smoke of thousand villages move me." When I look across, you know, standing on a top, tall mountain, he said he talked about the smoke of a thousand villages are calling me.
Now, how often do we think like that? Smoke of a thousand villages calling me? No, not really. Yeah, having your, you know, a lion attack you that that would be that would be enough for me to say, okay, I'm done. Yeah, I'm out.
So I read those kinds of biographies, and they motivate me to go. Am I really sharing the gospel? I think a lot of Christians, when they hear a conversation like this, they they do think of evangelism as exactly what you're saying—like going to foreign countries, going out and reaching the entire world, going overseas where Christianity is not welcome or is just completely absent. Or they think of like Mormons, like going door to door, knocking with their little press shirts and their black ties and holding up their little book. And neither one, maybe.
Neither one right appeals to them, hundred percent. Yeah, and I don't think that's the purpose of reading Livingston and others, or or Lottie Moon, you know, people like them. But I think they should motivate you to, if they can go into such different cultures, under such different climates and threats, they were willing to go and do this. What is keeping you from just talking to that person in the in the aisle behind you, or seeing that friend, or coming across a couple having a difficult time that you know and saying, "Hey." Y'all, y'all need to come to church. We're we're going through a series, and it may not directly impact your marriage.
Like, there's not a series on marriage, but the message is so good it will get you your your heart on Christ. Yeah.
Or our church has so much to offer for children or for students. You need to bring your kids. It's important to get them plugged. That's also witnessing, yeah, yeah. Because hopefully the next step will be, hey, let me share what Jesus has done for me, yeah.
Because he has changed my life, and he can do the same for you. And you have to really come and taste who he is.
So the purpose of reading those biographies or listening to the messages—I listen to a lot of. Audio sermons that are, you know, missions-minded, revivalistic, of course, expository, but also those, and it motivates me. And then when I get up to preach, I have been motivated because if I'm not motivated, I can do a great exegesis up there, and teach people a lot about the Bible, but they will, they will just be reservoirs. They're not going to be a, a bubbling stream that goes and and and you know. Sates the thirst of thousands of people.
It'll just be like, "Hey, this is great water," and they'll just be a pond. Is that something going into ministry? Is that something that you knew, or is that something that you learned after having stepped into ministry? Like, you need to be motivated in order to motivate your people. Let's take a quick break.
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Now let's get into the show. I've said this before. I was really, really blessed being around my dad.
Now I was never like right next to him, or went on went with him to. He would he took me one time to one of his big evangelistic or revivalistic crusades and things like that. But I was I always observed him, and I was like, wow. I mean, he's always soul winning. He's always You know, he he seems to be coming as as biblical as he is, as intellectually minded as he is.
He he has this side of evangelism always there. Even when he got saved, he didn't change his last name. You know, my last name is Shaw, which is a you know old Muslim you know Persian name. He never changed that. And I asked him one time, "I was like, you changed your first name.
You you became Paul. Why not the last name?" He said, "Well, I kept it so that if people ask me, you know, why is your name Paul Shaw, that would be an opportunity for me to tell them about what Jesus had done for me." I'm like, "Oh, okay." So they would he would have that part of the story where he came from from a Muslim background, right, and be able to share that gospel.
So I was like, "Oh, okay." So that that was very much who he was.
So was my mom. Very evangelistic, and that that's because of being under my dad's preaching. And then some of the guest speakers who would come to our church that he would invite from Australia, New Zealand, England, Philippines, America, of course, Canada. Many of these missionaries were very, very evangelistic, and so being around that culture. I picked up on the importance that Christianity is not just.
I am a Christian, or I attend a church, or it's a membership, or I do certain rituals that keep me. No, I grew up in a very vibrant Christianity. In fact, many of our listeners may have may have heard of Operation Mobilization, OM. And this is a big organization founded by George Werver, and they had two big ships, Lagos Dulos, and they would these ships would travel, kind of like the mercy ships. They would travel and dock at different seaports, and you know, based on permission from the government, and then they would go on land and share the gospel, sell books, and my dad worked with them.
He was one of their guest speakers all the time. Wow! And we were able to get on the ship and spend time with some of the people. I mean, young people from all over the world. This is in the early '80s, and being around boys and girls from like Sweden and Denmark and Netherlands and all over, and they're on fire for Jesus.
Being around that culture. That that motivated me. I remember a missionary. I mean, he he passed away a few years ago. Ray Iker.
He he his his daily ritual, daily ritual. He would get up in the morning and maybe have breakfast, maybe not, but do his devotions, and then he would leave. It doesn't matter where he is, what city he is. He would leave with a small Bag with a bunch of tracks, small Bibles, and he would go share the gospel for good two three hours. Wow, every single day, and then come back.
Like if he would leave at like nine o'clock in the morning, he'd be back at twelve every single day. Three hours a day, he would be out in the streets somewhere in India sharing the gospel. Wow, giving out tracks, talking to people. Phenomenal, and so when you hear those kind of things, you you your mind is already set.
So when at times I feel like you know I've been so locked in in meetings and preaching and just church management or academic work. That side is weaker. It's somehow it's it's it's built into me now. I think it also goes to show how deeply the gospel impacts him and people like that. People who are willing to do that kind of thing, you get the sense, even if you don't buy into what they're saying, as a lost person, right?
You get the sense that it has deeply impacted. Means they have witnessed something extraordinary. You're talking about these missionaries, yeah, yeah. Like like I'm I'm imagining them talking to a lost person with this fervor and going hours and hours and hours. And even if I, as a lost person, was to look at them and say, "Man, I don't buy into what he's saying," I can't deny that he has seen something extraordinary that has really changed his life, and maybe it is the case that a lot of us in Western Christianity.
Struggle with evangelism because there's some sense of normalcy to the fact that we like this isn't as extraordinary to me as it should be. I think you've got a great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and that's where I think we need to come back to our roots.
Well, I think that's why we're doing this series on getting to know God because the more we talk about it, the more extraordinary it becomes. Yeah we we lose the we lose the wow somewhere along the way and it just kind of becomes rote. It becomes just sort of the mechanics of going through the motions and sharing the gospel. With people, and here is my presentation, yada yada yada. But it's really the wonder, the the the the awe behind our words that are going to captivate people.
That that they're going to see.
Something has made a difference in his life. I mean, we talk all the time about we ought to look different than the world around us. Part of that is in how we share our story. Part of that is in how we share how Christ has impacted us. And if if we don't truly believe that in our hearts, it's not going to come through in our words.
And that's why it it is all connected. It's not just that we are a soul winning church. We are a praying church. We are a Bible preaching church. We are a Serving church, no, no, it's it's all connected.
A Bible believing, Bible preaching church will be a praying church, will be a serving church, and will be ultimately a soul winning church. It has to be connected.
So when certain churches become like these bastions of, you know, lower shelf seminary teaching, and we do that a lot of that here at Clearview. That's incomplete. There are certain churches that, like, oh, we're we're just praying. You know, prayer is very important. Oh, how much of the Bible?
Oh, I mean, you know, we do that. But I tell you what, prayer—that's not going to last long. Yeah, your prayer is not going to be informed by truth about God and what He wants to answer. We're a serving church. We just like to help people.
If there's a storm, we come together and we feed everybody.
Okay, that's great. Yeah.
But you're gonna do that, and when opportunities come to share the gospel, you won't say anything. Yeah, you'll just give them mashed potatoes and gravy and fried chicken. Yeah, there's more that is needed. Yeah, they're gonna get hungry again. They're gonna get hungry again.
Then he's spiritual food, and only Christ can be that food.
So if all this is not connected, we may do a lot of things, but not. Ultimately, do what Christ wants us to do. That's so. All of this is connected. Everything being connected.
Everything drawing from the same source, which is Christ. It's not that these other things are bad. It's just that alone, they're incomplete. Alone, absolutely.
So they're all needed.
So it's not one or the other. And I think a lot of people will look at that and they'll be like, "But that's unrealistic. How am I? How is this church supposed to be good at all of these things? We're struggling to keep all these balls up in the air." And I think, Doctor Shaw, maybe you can talk about this and expand on this.
That's where your mindset comes in because. You will get good at the things that you think about. You know, there's. You know, I'm not very good at leading students because I never think about it. You know, there are things that because my mindset is not right.
That. You know what I'm saying, like, like the the less you the less you think about it, the less you intentionally. We we make fun of that word a little bit because it's so overused. But the less that you intentionally put yourself and put your mind in that place, of course, you're not going to be good at it. Yeah, well, that's why we need each other.
There are things like on this team that things that people here do that I would not dare do, like student ministry. Just like John said. At one time, twenty five years ago, yeah, I was a fun guy.
Now, if a little bit happens, I'm ready to to say, "Hey, everybody, have a seat." Where I sit down, no more fun. Have a seat, worship. You do a phenomenal job. Weekend after weekend would not be for me. Would not be.
I'll just be a solo singer up there. Everybody gone. Yeah, I don't need all that headache. I won't do it. That's not me.
Preaching that may not be your thing, or maybe maybe somewhat of it to learn and teach the Bible, but to go in depth and get to the heart of it with as cutting edge information that motivates me. Yeah, but that may not be yours. Maybe Bible teaching, but not trying to get scholarly and all the stuff may not motivate you. May not give you that energy. Not even a little bit.
Yeah, but. Putting us all together, now we're able to do things that the other person is not gifted to do. Or David doing what he does, or our rest of our team—Adam and Nick and Katie and rest of them. They all come together for us to be able to do what we're doing. That's right, and do it well.
That's right. It's a team effort.
So maybe a church needs to look at it that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with evangelism as well, you know, if you think you're going to go out there and win the entire world just by yourself with your charisma or with your silver tongue and your knowledge of the gospel, it's just not going to work.
Well, Billy Graham was the face; he was the speaker, but he had a team. Oh, hundred percent. He had a team of people. That's one of my favorite things that we ever. Read together as a as a as a team is the autobiography of Billy.
We're not all about our feet, but the story of Billy Graham's life, the story of the leadership principles that he learned, and then about the team that he surrounded himself with. You know Billy Graham's name, you know his face, but there was a set of people around him that that made that ministry what it was, and God worked through each of them individually, all while Billy Graham himself was the was the spearhead, was the tip of the the the spear that people knew. And that's that those people didn't want to be Billy Graham. It wasn't as though when Billy Graham died.
Now the vacuum is open. I'm going to seize my chance. No, the legacy continues with Billy Graham's association today, and so also I think with us, with then not just us here at Clearview, but with you and with your evangelism. What is it that your team actually wants to accomplish? Do you want a huge, huge church so that people can see how good you are, or do you want to get the gospel of Jesus Christ as far and as deep into people's hearts as you possibly can?
Doctor, we've got a few minutes left on the show, but I'm thinking about the people who are sitting out there listening, who are. Who have heard the episode and maybe acknowledge that evangelism is something that they ought to do, but are like, if I'm if I'm being truly honest with myself, it's not that I. Hate people. It's just that I I don't have the same burden. I don't have the same level of urgency when it comes to sharing the gospel.
What would you say to them? How can they cultivate that?
Well, of course, we've already talked a lot about getting into the word and bringing people together. Different peoples with different gifts and burdens, and and not just burdens as in like oh it's a burden to me. What I mean by burdens as a desire to do things, but coming together. Is very important, but ultimately know that when it comes to soul winning, when it comes to sharing the gospel, we can only do that if we are working in cooperation and in submission to the Holy Spirit.
Soul winning is not just something you do.
Soul winning is something that you come alongside what God is already doing. He is constantly reaching lost souls. Constantly, some reject, some receive. When you come alongside God, let's go back to that person standing in the line behind you at a grocery store, and you're making that brief contact just to initiate a conversation. Maybe say something about Christ.
God is working on that person's heart. The Holy Spirit has been working on your neighbor's life. That friend you just saw, that neighbor, that family member, that coworker, that person you don't know at the ball field—you know, you're sitting there watching your child or watching your, you know, grandchild play ball—and but somebody sitting next to you, and conversation begins. God is working on that person's heart. You have to remember that God is working.
So when you come and you join in, you're joining. God, that's right.
Okay, so don't think this is a I got to do this, and if I don't, it's going to mess up. Because ultimately, you know, it's not a goal that we're trying to reach; it's a soul. It's it's that person's heart. Ooh, that's good. It's not a goal; it's a soul.
It's a soul. Write that down, somebody. I like that. Yeah, people are not a not some project to be completed or boxes to be checked. They are precious souls to be one to Christ, and so.
You know, years ago I was talking, reading in this thing. If you're in a neighborhood, stick around a little longer before you run inside the house, because there may be a neighbor pulling up in his driveway. You may have a conversation in the break room. Take a little extra time and and see the acknowledge the people that are there. If you have lost friends, invite them to dinner with you.
Go to a homeless shelter.
Now you may win that person in the homeless shelter, or you may, you may talk to a person who's there just to get you know some community hours. Who knows? After school tutoring, things like that, or get involved in a prison ministry. You know, a neighbor or friend wants to borrow something. Say well, I'll come and help you with it.
How about that? That those are kind of things that will help you have opportunities to cooperate with God. Amen. Yeah, I love that distinction too. That it's not just something that you do; it's something that you participate in alongside the Lord.
It's something that you are doing with God, participating in, and that's such a beautiful reality. That makes evangelism something that you desire to do, something that's exciting to do, and it takes that pressure or that hero complex, depending on which type person you are, off of you. You know. It's not. It's never about this this solo journey that I have to go on to be a stalwart, a champion of the faith.
This is something that God has equipped you to do. But ultimately, it's His mission. And so, just like Doctor Shush said, being obedient, being submissive to the Holy Spirit produces the highest yield. And we've seen that at Clearview. Our goal is that you will see that at your church.
We want every single church in America to be doing as well as they can, using the tools God has given you. And this show that you're listening to right now is one of those tools.
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