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Now let's jump in. Throughout the centuries, believers have disagreed on the form and function of the Lord's Supper. You know, some churches don't even practice the communion anymore. Let's sit down and talk more about it today on the Clearview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here live in the studio with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah. Dr. Shah got a great conversation today talking about the Lord's Supper. Yes, just like Baptism, we're going to have some disagreements. That's right.
Yes. That's right. Maybe, hope not from our listeners and viewers, but hopefully we can get clarity. Biblically and historically.
Well, you know, it's funny because you see Jesus model something for you in the Bible, and you think to yourself, that should be pretty successful.
Well, that ought to do it. If I do it the way Jesus did it, maybe this is the way to do it. And then other people are like, no, we need to dunk our babies. We need to sprinkle him with the water. and then they're saved.
Did Jesus say that? That's what I said. That's what I said. So, also with the communion. You know what's funny?
So, did you guys do communion like growing up in churches? Oh, yes. Yeah. I remember my grandmother took me to a church once when I was a kid. I didn't go, I didn't get saved until I was 15, but when I was a little kid, my grandmother took me to a church on communion Sunday.
And they had you line up in the aisle. And go down and you tear off a piece of the bread and you dip it in the juice. And I remember seeing people do it. And just as like a, I must have been Gavin's age, like five or six. I was like, I don't want to do that.
And the priest gave it to me. And I took it. And I looked up at my grandma and she was like, Eat it. Eat it. And I was like.
I don't want to. It's soggy. She was like, eat it. And I put it in my mouth and swallowed it down. I wanted to cry so bad.
Did y'all do it that way? No, in our church. To start with, my grandmother would prepare the the juice. And this was made out of raisins and it was and she would spend hours the day before And and it was not fermented, of course, but but it was made in such a way that it was fresh. This was not Welsh's grape juice.
Of course, not juicy juice, none of that. No. No. And we never drank it. Other than during the communion.
Yeah. And then the bread itself was baked at home, in our home. It was good bread. Oh yes, and this was not like, you know, you get the store-bought wafers where you serve them and then Put them in these plastic bags and put them in the fridge at church and then pull them out six weeks later or whatever you do it once a quarter.
So maybe three months later. And you serve the same one. No, these were freshly made. And I remember her On this this almost looked like a cutting board. that she would have this bread laid out and then she would she would with a knife just kind of slice them and slice them into small pieces.
And then those pieces were put into the Communion plates. And the way it was done In India, that's where, you know, many of you know That's where I grew up and my dad was a pastor. The way it was done was he would come forward, And up front there were There there was there was a kneeling bench. And people would come and kneel. And then my dad would walk up and down the pulpit, and give each of them A piece of bread and a cup.
I mean, he would bring it, and they would take it out of his hand? Out of the tray? The tray. Yeah. And then he would say, you know Recognizing that Jesus shed his blood for us, let's partake of it together.
Or start with the bread. And uh he his body was broken for us. Let's partake of it together. And then he would go back. And then he would collect the cups.
So that was also, I mean, it was a long process. Yeah. Yeah. Communion Sunday. And so.
Men will come first.
So the entire Entire front of the church was, and I have pictures was laid out, you know, men would be kneeling. And then That would go on for like two, three times and then the ladies would come. And then Same thing. Very orderly process. Very orderly.
And I think it had a sense of. You know, gravity to it, that this is something special that we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. When we were growing up, we did the traditional, what you think of, like Southern Baptist Church, pass the plates around.
Like, like the same way the ushers do the offering, they would pass the communion plates. And so we had the. You know, the little circular with the cross imprinted on it, the little wafers. Then, when Elizabeth and I moved to North Carolina, the church we were a part of. Before coming to Clearview, they had baked bread for communion.
So they did where families would come forward and then you would tear a piece of bread off, and they still had the little cups. But you would tear a piece of bread off. And I was like, oh, this is kind of cool.
So Elizabeth and I actually, we served on the communion team there and swat the bread out. And I have this vivid memory of like in between services, because there were two services on a Sunday morning. In between services, we would take this bread back and then we would replace it with new loaves of bread.
So, the pieces where people had plucked bread off, we cut that part off, and then we would eat the rest of the bread. Did y'all get to eat the leftovers after community?
Well, there was a little bit more sacredness to the whole thing.
So, how it would be done is that. My dad would then, after the services were done, after we were sometimes Before lunch?
Sometimes after lunch. It all depended on. How hungry dad was.
So, you know, we had two services. Yeah. Every Sunday, we had two services in the morning. One was the English service that was at 8:30 in the morning, and then, Mm. About nine, nine thirty was or oh, I'm sorry.
10 o'clock was the second service. And then, when all that is ended, dad would go and then he would collect all the bread.
Some of that bread he would eat.
Some, you know, I don't know what they did with it. I mean, I'm sure they had to throw it away or whatever, but that was. I was never privy to that. Yeah. Never privy to what happened to that bread.
There was no like going back in the kitchen and everybody pigging out on the rest of the bread. No, maybe I. Knowing that, I don't think he would have thrown it away. He may have just eaten it. Yeah.
And then, and we didn't make like tons and tons of bread either. It was just enough for. For our congregation, for those two different congregations that we had, the English service and the Hindi service.
So it was not like tons of bread to eat. But it was gone. The Jews, on the other hand, Now, what do you do with all that juice?
So, dad would drink it. And if I happened to be around, he was like, You want some? Like, yes. I opened him up for you. Yeah.
And he would pour some. I was like, Oh, that's so good. Can I have some more? A little bit more. Can I?
That's enough. That sounds like my son, right there. Yeah. But again, the idea behind that was: it's the bread represents the body of Jesus. We're not going to just throw it away.
Right. The blood. Represents the cup of the new covenant. We're not just going to pour it out. There you go.
We're going to have some sense of. Oh, sombreness. Yeah, I agree. I 100% agree. And I think this whole conversation that we've had up to this point is sort of predicated on the fact that the listener is familiar with.
with communion. But Dr. Shah, maybe there's someone who just got saved yesterday. Maybe there's someone who has gone to a church that have they've never done communion. They're listening to this and understanding what is communion?
Yeah, whatever that term is. Yeah, what is this?
So, Wayne Grudem, again, I'm going back to his systematic theology. He just defines communion as a symbolic act of obedience. a symbolic act of obedience whereby believers remember the death of the Lord Jesus.
So if there's a remembrance, there's a memorial? And anticipate his second coming. There's a looking back, then there's a looking forward. The bread is symbolic of his body and the juice represents his blood. I would add to it, it also has a present.
Where you look around.
So there's a looking back, there's a looking around, there's a looking forward. Looking back, you're remembering. What took place? Looking around you see the family. Of God that He has placed you in looking forward.
is looking to the day when you will celebrate The communion with Jesus himself. You know, we talked yesterday about baptism, and we're talking today about communion, and I think these two. observances or sacraments or however you want to frame it. You know, I like the way that you put it is that there's a gravity to this thing. But then there's also people who have assigned maybe a little too much gravity where they say that.
Yeah, oh yeah, they've they've taken communion and have assigned meaning that was never intended, have made it have made it something more than what it was true. This is now a literally holy act that we're doing. I've heard people say, and I don't know if this is, I don't know if this is true. I've never talked to someone who believes this. But people say that the bread And the juice, they don't represent Jesus' blood and his body.
They are. Like they physically transform into his body and his blood. To me, that sounds a little crazy, but I mean, do is that like a real thing people believe? Oh, yeah. I mean, even someone like Martin Luther, the German reformer, the Protestant reformer, also believed in that.
He could not break away from the idea that there's something very special in the communion. And so he claimed that Christ's body is literally. It In, with, and under. The bread and wine, in with and under. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.
Like, I'm trying to be like, yeah, okay, okay. But I have no clue what in, with, and under the Bryn Weiss body is the. I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Well, I think it goes back to conveying some kind of mystery. I mean, some sort of almost mystical nature of the communion in that, you know, we're not literally chewing on. on flesh and drinking blood. The essence is infused there? Or the things sort of morph in their metaphysical nature?
Yeah, is it some desire to bring in. Metaphysics and supernatural stuff, or is it just taking Jesus' words too literally?
Well, in some sense, there is a mystical element to the communion, so let's not forget that. Let's not ignore that because there is that, and we're going to talk about that in a few moments. But at the same time We refer to the communion as an ordinance, something that Jesus commanded us to do. until he comes. There are other denominations, other groups of Christians who believe that it's a sacrament.
It means it gives you some kind of a grace and blessing when you take part in it.
So it has the Sacramento Significance. Sacrament means you do this, therefore something happens. Yeah, something. Benefit will happen to you. Whereas a spiritual benefit.
Right. Whereas an ordinance is just Jesus said this, so you ought to it. That's right. Okay. Does that make sense?
Yeah, tradition that we observe together. Because I would have considered ordinance and sacrament just interchangeable phrases, but they're not. Yeah, they're not. They're definitely reflective of what you're believing about that bread and about that cup.
Okay. So it all goes back to Jesus. Jesus commanded his disciples to keep the communion. I mean, that's where it all begins. On the night before he was crucified.
Jesus celebrated the Passover with his disciples. And you can picture that scene. They would have brought an approved lamb.
Okay, that's where it all began. Taking it to the temple to be slain. It's Passover. and then brought it back and roasted it. This was not like cooking like a curry or something.
This is, no, you are. Simulating, in a sense, what took place on that first Passover night. The Hebrews were about to be set free from Egypt. Yeah. We've been we've been in that room, the upper room, or we've at least been near it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where Jesus celebrated this Passover with his disciples. Yeah.
That was a cool, that was a cool time. I remember we filmed a video in there and we lost the light.
So like the light outside had gone down.
So we all took out our phones. And yeah, I remember that. That was a fun, that was a fun day. You know, what's funny is we filmed that video. The moment that you ended it, I remember the battery and the camera died.
I was like, Thank you, Lord. I remember that. Yeah, I do too. But yeah, so so it it goes back to that first Passover night. And so the disciples would have followed in this tradition.
They would have set the table with the Lamb. and unleavened bread, Bitter herbs And now wine was added to the meal. But again, this is not wine as what people consider wine today. I've preached on this, I covered this in detail in a sermon series. Last year, I mean, the alcohol content was so minimal.
I mean, you would you would be Probably have bladder issues before you would get drunk. Yeah, it was essentially water. It was essentially water. Yeah. And so You can imagine the disciples sitting down to go over these rituals and customs that they had been doing all their lives.
but they have no idea how Jesus was about to transform This feast.
So in Luke chapter 22 verse 17 He took the cup and gave thanks and said, Take this and divide it among yourselves.
So Don't forget, this is a collective act.
Okay, he did not individually give it to each. There's a group dynamic here. Everybody's partaking of it. Partaking is a family meal. Yeah, that's a good point.
I've never been to a family meal, and one person just sits there and serves everybody else, and we just all wait to be served. There's a collective nature exactly. It's interesting when you have people who want to take communion as a family, or they want to take communion, you know, individually because they feel like it'll be special or things like that. And not that those things are, you know, wicked or wrong, but there is a collective like church-family body of believers approach that I think we miss sometimes when we focus on. Individual instances of communion like that.
That's right. Did they know this? I know Jesus did, but did they know this as the Last Supper? Like, did they know, okay, this is our last meal with Jesus? I don't think so.
Yeah. I think they had some indication that something's going on because he said, I really want to Celebrate this with you. And Jesus said that to them, and they're like, Oh, something is up. But did they know all along? Probably not.
You know, the disciples were. We're not foolish individuals. We tend to think that they were just unlearned, foolish people. Not true. all of them came from a rich religious background.
They were steeped in Old Testament scriptures. At least we know Peter was. Then we know John was. I mean, read the Gospel of John. You think he's unlearned?
Read first, 2 Peter. Do you think that's unlearned? If Mark's gospel came from Peter, No. Peter knew scripture.
So These these men knew All that, but then they knew that something was going on, something. special is happening. And then Jesus did something very strange. Because here comes the strangest part In verse 19, this is again Luke chapter 22, verse 19, he took bread, gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, this is my body which is given for you. This is my body, which is given for you.
Do this in remembrance of me. That's a little wild to say over the supper table. Yeah. That's something I would not expect. That's a harsh line to drop.
This is my body, which is given for you. And then to drop the do this in remembrance of me. Yeah. That's like you remember someone who is no longer with you. And then in verse 20, likewise, he also took the cup after supper, saying, This cup.
is the new covenant in my blood which is shed for you.
Now, before you say, oh my goodness, they would have been grossed out and they would have been just shocked. No. Again, Jesus has been teaching them. He's been talking to them about this day is going to come. They understand some things about the Messiah.
These are not like random people Jesus picked and said, Okay, you, you, you, what do you do? I'm a. Cobbler.
Okay, come on. What do you do? Oh, I'm a banker.
Okay, come on. No, it's not that random. He knew who these individuals were, and he knew that there was a a heart for the things of God, that they were waiting for the Messiah. There was something something in there that was longing for the one who was promised and prophesied. He knew that.
and on the basis of that he called them And so when he said those words. It may have shocked them a little, but I don't think it shocked them so much that they went. How dare you? Yeah. You know?
And Walkout. We're not cannibals. We are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You are misleading they no, they didn't do that. Mm-hmm.
I mean, if I were to do it right now to you. Hey, this this cough drop Is my brain? I mean, you'd be like. Huh? Are you okay?
What? Yeah. No, no, this is my brain for you. You're like No, no, go ahead and eat it. It's my brain for you.
How about I just can I slip it in my pocket for a little bit? Yeah, I mean, you would even if you eat it, you'll be like, no, this is not your brain. This is just a cough drop. Yeah. I mean, you would be Really?
grossed out. And you would say, Are you okay? Is everything okay? Yeah, like, what do you mean? Yeah.
Yeah, you would not be just sitting there just going, okay, mm-hmm. they're sitting there listening to him, which means this this was not as much of a Shocker as sometimes we've made it out to be. It was different. 'Cause no Jewish person would ever dream of saying that.
So they're thinking There's more to this. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's like that. It's like, maybe, maybe not shocked, but maybe just like you've got my full attention.
Oh, yeah. I'm trying to. 100% agree. I'm trying to. You've got me.
I'm in. Let me hear what you're about to say.
Well, this is the Passover that they're celebrating, right?
So, this is already a time that's kind of rife with. Symbolism and memory and things like that. But Jesus takes us in a different direction than what the disciples are even exactly. Exact Jesus gave the Passover a whole new meaning. In verse twenty five here, it says in the same manner he also took the cup after supper.
Now what is the cup after supper? Just kind of clarify that. There were four cups in the Passover meal. The first cup was the first time. Was poured as the Father recited his blessing over the wine and over the day.
That was the first cup. The second cup was poured and the son asked questions about the special food. Add the meal. Cup number two. Cup number three, the cup was poured after the supper as the father recited grace over the meal.
So, first one. Recited, the father recites the blessing over the wine and over the day. Second, Uh the son asked questions about the the special food. And the Passover meal. Tard one?
After supper, as the Father recited grace after the meal, there was a.
Now we only prayed before the meal, right? Right. They prayed even after the meal.
So, so this is the third one that Jesus took the cup?
Well the fourth one. The fourth one was poured, and the father would recite the halal and the blessing. over the song The Hell L, okay, hallelujah, you know, the Hell L song. Right. Which cup is being referred to here in 1 Corinthians 11 25?
The third cup.
Okay. Okay. This was the cup of blessing which. Jesus recast as the cup of the new covenant in His blood.
Okay, so the third cup. The one that is after the supper. This is the one. That Jesus said this is The cup of the new covenant in my blood.
So, in doing so, I mean, he is completely changing what Passover means. From here on. Yeah, I mean, he's something is happening here. Yeah, I can see that because I can see why they're. Why they're shocked, why they're a little bit like all in on this, because like imagine.
I'm doing something. Or among our church family. And I'm like, guys, what I'm doing here is gonna change the shape of Christianity. Forever. Probably people would just wouldn't believe it.
But for him to say, like, this is the new covenant, Passover. This thing that That the Jewish people have been doing for centuries is different from here on out. Yeah, they're walking through a paradigm shift. Yeah, absolutely. And then Jesus does something here with Matthew, with which Matthew 26, 29 talks about.
He did not drink the final, the fourth cup with them. You know, the fourth cup is the one that is reciting the hellel and the blessing over the song. Here Jesus says this, Matthew twenty six, twenty nine But I say to you, I will not dr drink of this fruit of the vine. From now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's kingdom, And when they had sung a hymn, They went out, to the Mount of Olives.
So the halal still happened, okay? But the cup the cup was not Drunk. What is the significance of him not drinking the cup?
Okay, so two things. Number one, first, he still has to shed his blood as the Passover lamb. But this is not a Passover lamb just For those Hebrew slaves. This is a Passover lamb for the whole world.
So that sacrifice still has to happen. Secondly, he wanted all of us to be there with him. Not just those twelve? He wanted all of us to be there.
So he has not yet drank it? No. Even to this day. Right. He's waiting.
He's waiting for all of us. The whole family will gather. Wow. Wow. That's incredible.
Yeah. I'm not gonna drink. of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you. And the you are not just Peter, James, John, Andrew, Simon, Bartholomew, no, no, no. This is all of us.
There's more family coming, and it's a massive family.
So, even the little observances of communion that we do today, the modern in-church service or whatever. Even that's pointing forward to the one communion that we're looking forward to where we're going to share that cup together. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow.
We often think of heaven just as one huge worship service, but we don't think of it as the family meal. You know, we don't think of it as a family gathering. Typically, just very God-centric, throne-centric, and then all these multitudes around this throne worshiping, and it's that for eternity. But the the family dynamic. You know, we see that Modeled in the Old Testament, of course, but then we see it here on earth.
And we don't think about it being in heaven as well. Isn't that crazy? And it's going to be. Yeah. There's more to it.
Other than what we have just talked about, and maybe we can discuss this. Yeah. in another show because I think People, once they understand the deep meaning behind it, I think they will appreciate it far more.
So, go ahead. No, that's what you're going to ask because I have a different question.
Well, I was just going to say, for someone listening to this, and maybe they're like, you know, I'm in, I want to observe this. But I go to a church that doesn't really do the communion. It's not a thing that my church does. You know, how do you, how would you get that started? You know, is that something you can approach your pastor and say, listen, I think as a church, we should do this kind of thing.
Yeah, in humility, in humility, in. And Recognizing that your pastor has been placed by God in that position of authority. He says, Don't come in, like, let me straighten you out, right? Let me enlighten you. Nobody likes that.
go with the spirit of humility, And ask and say, why don't we do this? Is there any reason why we don't? And then see See his reasoning behind it. I would suggest I would say that more than likely, more than likely, he will be very inclined. To Have communion.
And there are some churches that don't have communion for years. Because it's not that significant for them. And it's sad because they are missing out on a very important ordinance that Jesus Himself said: do this in remembrance of me. And they're saying, no. You have to do this periodically.
And so I would say It needs to happen more. In our church, We used to do it once a quarter, like you know, four times a year. And then we realize, man, this this is This needs to be more than this.
Well, because people respond to it. Yeah. Yeah. People really respond to it. It's powerful when you understand.
I mean, just like we talked about today, when you understand the implications of what communion truly is and what it's pointing toward, why would you not celebrate more often? Yeah. Now we do every six weeks, and it's one of the most meaningful services. It is. Most meaningful services.
Because. We have Families coming forward together.
Now, at one time, we were big on just passing the plate because we're sort of, I'm serving you. But I don't think that it has the same significance for a lot of people because it's become just a. Thing to do. It's more about convenience, so we don't make the ushers climb over people.
So we're going to just plast pass the plate. But making people come To these tables, and we have like six set up all together. Five up front, one in the back, and we're going to add some more. Several things happen. Number one, it's more than just me.
In fact, I don't serve the communion anymore, I let the men in the church. serve in those places. And to me, that is very special. They are given a chance to participate. You see more people, you interact with more people, there's a little movement, and there's a really sense of intentionality in the way that we do it.
It's much more participatory. You know, how much can I be participating in something, sitting quietly, looking at my lap, looking at this little wafer in my hand, versus going up and seeing my friend or seeing my family praying, kneeling down beside them, putting my hand on them, praying, and then taking the Lord's Supper together. I love the way we do communion. I do too. I think it's great.
I do too. And I'm excited to continue this conversation about communion. There's so much here. It's such a rich tradition, and it's something that points forward to, you know, an eventual spiritual reality where we get to share that communion with Christ one day in heaven. That's right.
You better get used to it.
Now, if your church ain't doing it now, you may as well start because you're going to be doing it for the rest of eternity in heaven. That's right. We hope today's episode was beneficial for you. If you enjoyed it, head on over to Abhinansha.com forward slash give and become a financial sponsor of the show. Every gift that you give goes to getting the message of the Clear Read today show, the message of the gospel across the airwaves and into people's homes, into people's hearts.
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