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Now let's jump in. We're on a mission to get to know Jesus. But there are some parts of Jesus that are just a paradox, a miracle that is greater than our minds can understand. Is it though? Maybe we can stretch our minds to accommodate it.
Let's find out together on the Clear Read Today Show. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here live in the studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. And if you're listening for the first time today, we want to hear from you. 252-429-6069.
We want to be able to hear what God is doing through your ministries, through your churches, in your life, through this show.
So make sure if there's any questions that you have for Dr. Shah, any suggestions for new topics, let us know at that number. 252-429-6069. That's right, Dr. Shah, we've been exploring the nature of Jesus.
We've been talking about what it means that He is fully God, fully man, how we rationalize this, how we reconcile this. And as we've found out throughout history, most people come down wrong. They try to wrestle with this idea and they sort of branch off into a deviant version of Christianity. That's right. What we're discussing here is what we would call the traditional historical and biblical position.
It is held by Roman Catholics, it is held by Protestants, Eastern Orthodox. This is. The bottom line. Core doctrine of the nature of Christ. If we get this right, Great.
But if we get this wrong, it doesn't matter what we get right.
So we have to get this right. And if you're coming from Mormonism. Or Jehovah's Witness, or one of the Pentecostals, this is not that view. That's right. That's right.
They're clearly out of line with Biblical Orthodox Christianity. Yeah. We spent the last couple of episodes talking about who Jesus is not, right? All of these ideas that throughout history have sort of permeated Christian culture, and that even today we might. Be tempted to think about like Jesus is two people living in one body, he's half human, half God, you know, just this Hercules figure.
Yeah, and we talked a little bit about who he's not, but then on yesterday's episode, Dr. Shaw, we were able to talk about who he is. And for people who are joining us for the first time, do you want to give us a little recap before they're like as they're driving? Maybe they're going to download the show later, but for now, just a little recap of what we talked about. Absolutely.
I mean, this came out of the church council at Chalcedon in October or to November of AD 451. This was a very important council that also caused a schism between the churches in the East and churches in the West, but ultimately came down on this position. That Jesus, number one, Jesus is truly human. in body and soul just as He was and is truly God, In form. He was truly human in body and soul, just as He is truly God in form, and when we use the word form we are referring to essence, nature, and substance.
Just like he was fully God, he's also fully man.
So that's number one.
Something else we looked at yesterday was that Jesus is two natures. one divine and the other human, and they are distinct With distinct wills.
So Jesus is not two persons, but he is two natures. You gave the example of how he could get physically hungry. Yes, that's his human nature. His will was I want to eat something. But at the same time he could calm the winds and the sea.
Right. He had power over nature, the very nature that gives us bread? Is the nature that he was desiring, hungry, but at the same time he was also completely over. Over all of it. I have a question.
When you say Jesus had two Wills? Is that how you do you? Two wills. Is that how, like, we point to that when we talk about Jesus' temptation? Because I've heard a lot of people talk kind of all around the temptation of Jesus.
Was he truly tempted? He's fully God. He can't sin, and yet he's fully man. He was tempted in every way as we are. How do we understand that?
Does this conversation play into that at all? Yes, it does. It's kind of. a stepping stone to that discussion. That's going to come under The peculiarity, impeccability of Christ, but maybe we can hold that off to another time.
Okay, but we will discuss that. But it is connected. You're 100% right. It is connected to this discussion.
Okay. You could, at least, if nothing else, you could at the very least say, because I've heard people say stuff like that, where it's even if it's not on temptation, it's on, well, he didn't eat for 40 days, but it's not that impressive because he's God. But his human will and his human desire, his human form, I guess you would say. Was I hungry? I feel this.
When it comes down to sin, like what Ryan was talking about a few moments ago, The human nature was without sin.
Okay, so he became completely like us, but he did not share our sinful nature.
So in that sense, we can go ahead and lay down the foundation for what we may discuss more later on. He was dying. but not for his own sins. He was dying for our sins.
So in a sense he was just like Adam, he was human without a human father. That's why we call him the second Adam. In a sense, yes. But also, he became the federal head, the representative of the new humanity. And we have a choice to reject the old and pick the new.
We have a choice to say, I'm leaving this family and going into this family. That's also one of the outworkings of salvation. We leave the family of Adam. the old Adam, and we joined the family of the new Adam, who is Jesus Christ. Because because one through one man sin entered the world, through one man salvation was made available.
Yeah, through one man death entered the world and death through sin. Uh so where Adam failed, Jesus Did not. Adam was tempted. He fell. The conditions of the fallen state are there, but he stayed pure.
Jesus stayed pure all the way to the cross and beyond. It's not as though he was immune to temptation just because he couldn't, he didn't have the choice to sin. He still was immune to physical pain, physical hunger, physical temptation.
Well, and that speaks a little bit to how we understand temptation. Experiencing temptation, it can lead us to sin, but being tempted in and of itself is not a simple thing because Jesus was tempted. That's right. So, but with that, we need to be careful of how we walk down that road because, yes, Jesus was tempted and Jesus remained without sin. You and I have an inherent sin nature.
So we are much more prone to be pulled by that temptation. 100%. We did an episode on this a while back on God's unchanging nature, right? He is immutable, he cannot change. And yet At the incarnation, Jesus became man.
He took on flesh. And we talked about this, I think, a little bit on yesterday's episode, but for someone who's joining today, Did God change? I mean, did God take on something new when he came to the earth? Yeah, this is a great discussion because it, I mean, it seems on the surface like semantics, like we're just sort of splitting hairs, but really, there's a lot of theology wrapped up in this. What does it mean that Jesus is the son of man?
What does it mean that he is fully God and fully man and has been before the incarnation? Like, how do we, how do we think through that? We, we talked about this on a couple episodes of the, of the Clear Read Today show, where it plays back into appearances of God in the Old Testament. Yeah. The physical appearance of who God is, how he interacts with people in a physical form, the pre-incarnate Christ.
You know, how does that discussion tie all together with the physical body of Jesus? And then, even zooming back out to the Trinity, you know, Jesus has a nature, a human nature that the Father does not have. Right. Does that make him more than the Father? Does that make him less than the Father?
The Holy Spirit does not have a human nature.
So does Jesus, does that make Jesus more? Does it make him less? Is he still equal, even though he has the same? This other nature. How do we think about that?
So, going back to what we had talked about, I brought up Karl Bart.
So, in today's little episode, we have, I mean, maybe I can touch on that.
So. When we talk about This whole issue we're referring to the Council of Chalcedon, as I mentioned, going back to 451, caused that division, that schism between the East and the West. Yeah. And a few years ago, I preached a series called True Esteem, in which I cover some of this where. That at this council It was fleshed out what was always believed.
But wasn't Voiced.
So, it's not that the church created the doctrine of the incarnation. They simply voiced it. Everybody knew that.
Okay. The leaders of the church, the church fathers, they knew this. People in the church knew this. They just did not have the ability to properly voice it until these councils.
So, in this council, it went like this. It said Jesus of Christ has two natures. human and divine. Human nature is exactly like us, but without sin. Divine nature is exactly like that of God the Father.
These two natures come together in one person. But the property of each nature is preserved. All right, so these two natures come together in one person, but the properties or property of each nature is preserved. These natures do not mingle or dissolve into each other.
So he's not less God or less man, he is still fully both. at the same time. Yes, and it's not just about less or more, it's more about Is it merging? Like is it is he now is it like Like I almost imagine like the outline of Jesus, right? And you've got the liquid that is the divine liquid and they mix together into the like in a like one of those soft drinks type commercials.
You know, there's this ingredient and this ingredient sort of coming in and they splash out. They splash together. Yeah, not true.
So So it is important to remember that This needs to be kept distinct. also the two natures in Christ do gain from each other.
Okay, so from the divine nature, the human nature gained the worthiness to be worshipped and to be sinless.
So let me read that from the divine nature, the human nature gained the worthiness to be worshipped and to be sinless. From the human nature, the divine nature understands our suffering, our temptations, and becomes our substitute.
So the two I I see what you're saying, the two do not mix together to become this new thing. But they do communicate in some ways. Right. Yeah. That's right.
Yeah. That's right. They learn, not learn, I guess, but they communicate to one another.
Well, that was going to be my, that was going to be my follow-up question. Like, is, is this God learning to understand us? Is this God, is he changing his understanding? Or what's happening here?
Well, in a sense, you can say that he learned obedience, you know, because the Bible talks about that. In the book of Hebrews, it talks about he learned obedience. But at the same time, it's not like his knowledge base grew.
Okay. Learned obedience. I mean, I can learn something about you.
Okay, but does not mean that that I am any more intelligent than I was previously.
Okay, that this is. and understanding I have now. Doesn't mean that I've grown. It's just that now I see in your realm how this is done.
Okay. So. this connection As I've been mentioning over and over again, this connection happened historically 2,000 years ago. but it was already settled in eternity. Mm.
And I know some people say, well, yeah, I think you're contradicting yourself. No, not really. Yeah. Because it is a very high doctrine, but it's one that once you understand, you cannot reject it. Yeah.
So When we are said to be partakers of the divine nature, we are participating in the holiness of the human Jesus.
Okay? And this is Bart. This is where Bart comes in.
So. So, again, there's so much I can say about this, but hopefully, this will sort of set the tone for what we're referring to. I saw a great video a few years back about because you made me think of it when you mentioned, like, you're contradicting yourself, but this is on a higher plane of understanding. It was this video about how. In 2D space, three dimensions don't make sense.
Like a cube in 2D space is a contradiction. It can't exist. It just looks like a square. Right, right. It's just a square, no matter how you look at it, because you don't have access to that third dimension.
But when I look at it, when we look at a cube, oh, okay, maybe it makes sense. It's a cube.
So, also with like higher dimensions beyond that, we would look at it and say, oh, that's. That can't exist. That is a contradiction, it makes no sense. I think also, so also with this. And maybe I'm not putting it correctly, but there is a higher plane of doctrine that maybe we can see a shadow or a reflection of this truth.
But maybe on this side of heaven or Maybe never.
Well, we'll never fully understand what this is. The Bible also speaks to that. I mean, God says, or it says in the Bible, your ways are higher than my ways, and your thoughts than my thoughts. God is loftier, he is greater, he is higher than we can conceive of. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to access the top shelf, which I'm grateful for conversations like this for you, Dr. Shaw, that helps us kind of navigate through some of these difficult issues. But God is God is greater than we can conceive of. That's right. That's right.
There's something more we need to understand about Jesus's humanity. If I can take this a little further, Jesus was essentially human, just like Adam before Adam sinned. Hmm, okay. Yeah. So, was Adam a full-grown or full-fledged human being before he sinned?
And the answer is yes. Genesis one twenty seven says So God created man in his own image. In the image of God He created man male and female He created them. Jesus was just like Adam in His humanity.
So, can we draw a connection between Adam and Jesus? Of course. Romans 5:14. Adam Who is a type of him who was to come? Adam was a type of Christ.
So like I think about Adam. You know, before he sinned, he had did he have a sin nature or was it in his act of obedience that he gained a sin nature.
Well, or his act of disobedience. Disobedience. Yeah. Disobedience is when sin came in. Yeah.
Gotcha.
So he did not have a sin nature before that act. Not like we do today.
So that's how that's what was my follow-up: Jesus being like Adam, except without a sin nature. But Adam didn't have a sin nature. Yeah. So I mean, think about it like. before you get sick, like like a viral infection.
Mm-hmm. How are you? Uh I'm feeling good. I mean, there's nothing wrong with me. But if a virus is introduced into your system, what's going to happen to you?
Yeah. I'm going to get sick. You're going to get sick. Yeah. Okay.
I think you have everything that is needed to get sick, but you're not sick. Right. But the moment that virus is introduced, your system catches that virus. Or the virus latches onto your system and begins to cause that disruption. And before you know it, there's a sinus infection, or there is a cold, or there is a sore throat and fever, and you know whatever else is going to happen.
Yeah. So in the analogy, every human after Adam is born already sick. Right. Yeah. Born with that virus of sin.
Yeah, yeah. Good point. Except for Jesus. Jesus born, he's the only person not sick. That's right, because he did not have an earthly father.
Right. And people would say, well, you know, come on, but earthly mother, come on, doesn't not. Yeah, you could say that, but God. Either way. He protected him from a From a, you know, being from the nature of sin.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So sorry, kids. Earthly dad saying sorry to you. It is what it is. It is what it is. No, that's that's a great comparison for us to draw because this this idea of a pre-fall humanity, this idea of a humanity that has the capacity to sin, but not the nature infection of sin, that's helpful in understanding that terminology of how that plays out.
Yeah. Yeah, we had a we ha I mean, we've we've done episodes on sin, especially when we were going through Romans. In fact, if you've Never listened to the show before, or you're a new listener, I would suggest going back a few months. I think it was maybe last year, where we talked about Romans. We did a whole series on Romans and we talked about sin, where sin is not just, oh, I made the wrong choice, I uh-ohed, and I disobeyed God.
Sin is a force. a living force that was introduced and it's it's a power that compels us to disobey. And I don't want to deviate this from the conversation, but this points to the temptation element as well. If there's no inner sin nature. There's an external temptation.
You got two very different responses, though. Right. Right. Because Jesus also is fully God. It's not just that he was like Adam before sin, but he was also fully God.
And as we mentioned a few moments ago, that were these natures able to interact with each other? You know, and we try to explain that in some sense: that yes, there is, they were able to influence the human nature, as I mentioned. Let me see if I can find that again. Hmm. They did gain from each other.
The two natures in Christ were gaining from each other from the divine nature. the human nature gained the worthiness to be worshipped and to be sinless? From the divine nature, the human nature gained the worthiness to be worshipped and to be sinless.
So big question. Good Jesus Senator. Or Jesus chose not to sin. And I would say Jesus could not sin. He could not.
He said, Come on, how can he truly be tempted like us if he could not even sin? Then it's not Real temptation is just Pretend temptation. Yeah, I can see how you you would feel that. Because you're not fully divine. And your divine nature which doesn't exist, is not there to influence the human nature.
Yeah. And that's the key. That's so important. I smile when you said that because it just sort of unlocked for me like the humanity of Jesus, that Jesus' human nature makes the temptation real.
Well, the whole thing really did experience the temptation. The divine nature makes falling into that temptation impossible. And this could be a broken illustration, but the way I see it is like, and maybe you can. Tell me what you think of this. The whole point is to say that Jesus understands us.
But what we're doing is saying, well, I'm not fully divine.
So I can't understand. I don't understand how that's real temptation. But our goal is not to understand him in the same way. Right. We can't.
Yeah. We cannot because we don't have a divine nature.
Now, through Christ, we can touch the divine, but we can only touch the divine as Karl Barr talks about on the human side of Jesus. Mm-hmm. And as the human side of Jesus is connected to the Godhead, so also we are connected to the Godhead. We are partakers of the divine nature only through the human Jesus. It's almost like in my head, and this analogy, I'm sure, is going to break down.
But if you have something in the oven that's like warm and it's baking, it's really, really hot. If you were to put your hand in that oven, it would burn up. Like your hand would light on fire. But you can touch the exterior of the oven and feel the heat. From the inside of the oven, you can feel that heat and it'll warm your hand.
But you can't get any further than the exterior of that of the. That's right. I was just reading at my devotional right now. I just actually finished it this morning, the book of Exodus. And I think yesterday or the day before, it was where he puts Moses in the cleft of the rock and passes by, and he's like, you can see my back.
But you can't see my face. No one can see my face. And I think also through that, if not for Jesus, if not for looking at him, we can't see God. Right. Like, we can't get to him.
And maybe that what you said just made me think of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something else over here we need to mention is.
How are we like Jesus then? While Adam and Jesus were essentially human, we are commonly human. Terminology. We are the product of the union of our earthly fathers and mothers, and we carry the sin nature in us.
So essentially, means like in their essence, they are human, they are pure. Unadulterated human. Right. We are commonly human.
Now, in some ways, we've kind of touched on that a few moments ago, but we're kind of bringing that up. Gotcha.
Just to clarify.
So in Psalm 51, verse 5, David says, Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. and in sin my mother conceived me. Paul affirms this in Ephesians 2:3, that we were by nature Children of Wrath So there is a difference between our temptation and Jesus' temptation. Jesus was tempted only from the outside, and we are tempted from the inside and outside. Because when I'm tempted, I have to acknowledge, like, yeah, I actually want that.
I want that sin. I want to engage in that. Exterior draw and an interior pull. Right. Jesus only had the exterior draw.
Right. He was tempted in that people tried to tempt him. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Nonetheless, the propensity to temptation and sin does not make us human. Being created in the image of God with a body and a mind makes us human.
So don't think like I'm just being a human. I mean, look, come on, I'm a human. Believers should not say that. Christians who have Jesus in them, and not just in them, we are in Jesus. There's a difference between Jesus is in us.
And we are in Jesus. There's a difference. You say, come on, it's the same thing, in Jesus, in Jesus. No, having. Jesus in us is almost like a little, you know, like a, like a, like a talisman, you know, something that he is in me, kind of protecting me.
I in him Is vastly different. He is so vast. He is. Infinitely vast. I am in him versus he in me.
You see that? There's a difference there.
Okay? So once I am in him, what happens? Once I'm I'm in him Then I ha ha I am having the same nature like he does. Because I'm saved now. Does temptation go away?
No. But the temptation is not from within, it is from outside.
Some years or months ago, I preached on this. On the temptation to smoke and to drink and things like that, where people struggle with these addictions and You know. What is needed?
Well, number one, you need to be saved. Once you're saved, what is needed? You need to completely surrender to God. He is your master, not you. Not your wife, not your husband, not your best friend, not some media.
That should not be what is controlling your mind and your heart. Jesus Christ and His Word should. Does that mean that you will not time to time be tempted to act the old way? Yes. Does it mean that just because you're saved you won't be tempted to take that drink or have that smoke?
Yes. But the temptation will not be from within, it will be from outside. And again, because he was tempted from the outside, he does understand what temptation is like, even for you. Our problem is temptation from within. Yeah.
Unless we surrender to Christ, unless we give our lives over to Him.
So. At the end of the day, Jesus is somebody may say like he's just essentially human without the ability to sin, but we are commonly human. There is still a difference. How can he truly understand what we go through being born in sin? Have you ever wondered have you ever wondered why Jesus spent those nine months inside his mother's womb?
And he was born, grew up, lived 33 some years. I mean, why did he have that time? Yeah. If His only purpose was to come to die for us. He could have just dropped out of the sky.
He could have done the whole work up in heaven. Finished it. Why did he do that? Why come down here and live a life?
Well, Hebrews 2:17 tells us. Therefore, in all things he had to be made like his brethren. that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, To make propitiation for the sins of the people, he had to be made like us, he had to live our life. He said, why didn't he go to the cross when he was like 75 years old?
So maybe experience more of life. He didn't need that long. But Right at that midpoint, 33 and a half some years, he said, it's done. It's time. Yeah.
It's time to go to the cross. That's right. So I don't know for some people, they may hear a conversation like this and say, oh, it's too complex, too complex. You don't get to decide. You don't get to decide how much is too complex.
You're not to say, well, if that's how it's going to be, how about people who don't have the ability and the know-how to think that deeply? What if people don't have that kind of information and knowledge and resources available to them? Does that mean they'll never grow? No, Christians across the world have understood these things. They may not always have been able to voice them.
They may not have gotten a PhD in this, but they understood these things. That's right. The early church. was made up of rich, poor. Educated, uneducated people.
But overall those who were true believers, they understood these things. Of course, someone like Origen or Tertullian or Justin Martyr or Irenaeus, they were able to voice it on a level that you go, My goodness, my head is spinning. But then there were also some very poor Christians. Just surviving hand to mouth. They were not able to explain it like some of these church fathers, but they believed it.
They believed it.
Well, I'm so should you. I'm glad that you brought that up because if we, if something matters to us, we're going to dive into it and we're going to study it. We're going to pick it apart. We're going to become as much of an expert in that field as we can. We do that with things like business.
We do that with things like cars. I mean, goodness gracious, we do that with things like video games and comic books. But if something matters to you, you're going to become an expert in that field. And conversations like this, conversations with Dr. Shaw, conversations here on the Clear Reach Today show, help you.
Way deeper into the water of theology, way deeper into the into the deep end of Christianity, and it's worth doing. That's right. We can't, we want to jump right to the application. Why? Because I want this to benefit me right here and right now.
I'm going through a hard time. I got lots on my plate, and I just want the blessings of God. And if I got to learn more about God to do it, then so be it. Man, that's not at all the attitude. Our whole goal of getting you this information, our whole goal of talking to you is to help you fall in love with being a Christian, help you fall in love with the person of who Jesus is and the people that you love genuinely.
You want to learn more about them. And so that's our goal is to give you a clearer view of the one who loves you and the one that you're called to love as well. We're so glad you've joined us on the Clear View Today Show today. Make sure that you go over to Abadanshah.com forward slash gift for your chance to become a financial supporter of the Clearview Today Show. You can also scroll down to the description box of this video and click support the show.
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