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Now let's jump in. Have you ever explained to a little kid that Jesus Christ is not only God's Son, He's God Himself? Scratch that. Have you ever even explained it to an adult? Difficult conversations to have, but worth having, and we'll find out why on the Clear Today Show.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show.
We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. And if you're listening for the very first time, we want to hear from you, 252-429-6069. Make sure you text the show. You can text any questions, any comments, anything that God has been doing in your life, your testimony, any questions you'd like Dr.
Shah to answer. And if today is your first time ever texting the show, text today, T-O-D-A-Y, to opt-in. That's right. Dr. Shah, we're continuing our conversation about who God is, about the Trinity, and what that means for our day-to-day life.
It's such a... top shelf issue, not issue, but theological concept to grasp that has such practical applications for us. And we're talking about the sun specifically. You know, Dr. Shah, I was in a, I wanted to tell you this story off mic before we started, but.
I was on a mission trip in Baltimore one time, and I remember my youth pastor. Explaining to this little kid, it was like a sports camp, that Jesus is God. And I remember distinctly the little kid being like, Jesus is God's son. And he was like, right, but Jesus is also God. And the little kid was like, no, he's God's son.
And you know what I did? I turned and I walked away. Because I was like, you know what? I know I'm here as a leader, but I don't even know if I got a good grasp. I don't know if I can navigate that conversation.
Well, so here's the definition. Jesus Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co equal with the Father.
Okay. He has eternally existed. and became man at his incarnation, Like physically that that act took place. And yet he always was fully God, fully man, just not in our realm yet, He lived a sinless life and offered himself as the perfect. sacrifice for the sins of all people by dying on a cross He bodily rose from the dead after three days, to demonstrate his power over sin and death.
He ascended to heaven's glory. and will return again some day to earth To reign as king of kings. And Lord of Lords. That is. As comprehensive and as succinct as you can get.
Yeah. But why didn't you say so in the first place? I know, right? And so this is an actual question. Why this word son?
Is that word like in Greek? Is that what it means? Because for me, definitionally, I don't know if that's a word. You defined as a son, as in my father. Created me.
Had my son, I created my son in a sense. Yeah, but that part is not there. Yeah. In our realm, that is needed. Mm-hmm.
Procreation is needed so you can have. More of us. And that history can go on. We're not eternal. We are mortal beings.
So that people can create people. There is that procreation aspect. But there's also the relationship. that fathers have with their children. and mothers have with their children, right?
and grandchildren and on and on and on. But in the Trinity There is a relationship without the procreation. That part is there. For us there is the added on. Procreation because If not, God could have created the entire you know, entire human race from beginning to end on On the sixth day, and dropped them on the planet.
I mean, you would have a human being on every. You know, track of dirt. Right. Right. That would be too much.
It cannot work like that.
So you have the relationship between father and son without the need for procreation because the son always has been. That's right. And it is a father-son relationship. It's not like two brothers who are completely equal, right? One's older, one's younger.
This is a father-son. There's a hierarchy. That's 100% true. And the way this has been set up is that. The father is, of course, fully God.
The Son is also fully God and fully man. And the Holy Spirit, of course, is fully God. And so. All spirit The fully God, fully man aspect was also fully spirit. Until The time of incarnation 2,000 years ago, when into our realm, you see.
This person manifested who could bleed, right? Yeah. Who could bleed, who could hurt, who could cry. You know, I think it's interesting because we are so used to what a father and son looks like here on earth that we try to, again, just like with love and grace and all the attributes, we try to plaster that onto God. And when it doesn't work out and it doesn't make sense, we'd be like, I don't know.
Maybe this is just something for theologians and scholars to decide.
Well, that's a normal thing: you try to map your experience onto understanding things. You draw from your own well, but we have to remember that God is greater than we are. And you've said that on the show, Dr. Shaw, that God, at some point, our mortal, finite minds will stop. And we won't be able to comprehend everything that God is because He's infinite.
God is eternal. He's infinite. He's larger than we are. And we've got to get to a point where we're okay with that. That's right.
And but this is not that complex. This is not complicated. This is simply that we get our. Earthly relationships from him, not vice versa. It's not that we have.
Children, and we have father-son or parent-child relationship.
So, now let's try to understand how the Trinity is using our daily lives. No, no, no. It's the other way around. This parent child or this father-son relationship really Always existed. And when God made us in His image, in His likeness, he brought this relationship aspect into our realm.
into the human realm. the realm of Adam and Eve. And that's when it was decided that there would be father-son.
So, then the next question is, and I think we covered that. previously in one of our shows. What about mother? Mm-hmm. Well, mother implies procreation.
That is not needed in the Godhead. Hence it's not mother God, it's father God. There's no mother needed. In the Trinity There was no one needed to be born. It was always father, son, spirit.
Yeah. But the relationship was there for father to a son. And also the fully God, fully man aspect was also there because that's how we were made in his image. If it in his image, well, you got to have. The original?
Where is the original? But the original is in the sun. That's why Karl Barth talked about this in one of his works. And I preached on this and we talked about it on this show. That To say that it's only at the incarnation that Jesus took on.
the humanity side of things. It's not quite accurate. He always was fully got fully man. And yet he entered our realm and expressed the fully man. In a new way, Karl Bart believed that it was only at the incarnation, or he was pointing out that that's not true.
No, he was pointing out that he always was fully got, fully man, the original. We are the copy. and then the original enter into our copy world. And he looked like the copies all around. This is 100%.
I know this is a discussion for another day, but you mentioned that there's no. Mother in the Trinity. Does the Holy Spirit sort of maybe this is a stretch, but does the Holy Spirit sort of function as that maternal instinct, the nurturer, the guider, the comforter, or is it completely separate? Completely separate. Nothing to do with that.
Nothing to do with that. I say the Holy Spirit is just. A person, a person who can be grieved, a person who can be quenched. A real person. Gotcha.
A real person who obeys the father and also obeys the son. He's the one who actually Does the work that happened in the creation? That happens in our redemption and that happens every single day. You know, he's the one who's actually doing the work. In this world.
Yeah. It's not like the force in Star Wars or some underlying current that kind of holds everything together. He's not an energy force or anything like that. He's really a person. And that's that one is a little harder to understand.
Because farther we get. Sun After a while, we can say, okay, I get it. Spirit? Why is the spirit needed? Oh, of course, the spirit is needed.
Yeah. And we're going to see that down the road in the series. Yeah, because we're talking about the sun today. And I think there's a lot of, and maybe you can kind of talk about this: how all these councils throughout like antiquity had to kind of wrestle with this. What does it mean that Jesus is fully God and he's fully man?
Is it the case that he's just He is God, but he's in like meat. He's in like a human shell, but he's still just a. Spiritual being just wrapped up inside a human body, or is he actually? A human being.
Well, let's just begin with what it does not mean when we say Jesus is fully God and fully man. What it does not mean. Number one, it does not mean that God the Son came and took on a human body, but kept a divine mind. Mm.
So that's kind of like, I'm wrapped in flesh, but at the core, I really am still 100% God. Right. That is a heresy.
Sorry. It may have to stone you now. But people think that. People think that Jesus, and I don't think it's like. If you're new to Christianity, especially if you just have no clue.
Maybe that's that doesn't sound so far out, right? Like God, because we say he's God in human flesh, he took on flesh, and so I think it's easy to think, okay, God just was born in a body, but he's just 100% God. Yeah, at one time, some of those verbiage. made sense. Because people knew what the other person was referring to.
But as time has passed and we have become shallow in our. theology and our doctrine. in our understanding of these core truths, then What is that? I don't think it means what you think it means. Oh, right.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. That's Princess Right. Yeah. So that's what's happening.
So people say those things, but somebody else is thinking completely different. Yeah. And that heresy that Jesus came, took on a human body, but kept the divine mind, was known as Apollinarianism. And it was condemned at the Council of Alexandria in 8362. And again, At the Council of Constantinople in 83, 81.
It means twice they said, that's not correct. Why is it harmful? Why is it harmful to think, okay, he's just God inside of a human shell?
Well, for one, it's not biblical. In Hebrews 2:17, it says, Therefore, in all things. He had to be made like his brethren. That he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make propitiation for the sins of the people. He had to be made like us.
So if he only has a divine mind that he cannot truly understand us.
Okay, he cannot truly understand us.
So, and again, these are deep things. Right. Because somebody may say, Well, didn't you just say that he always was fully God, fully man? Right. But he entered into our realm and became very close to us at that point.
Doesn't mean that his knowledge grew. But in all things, he was just like us at that point.
Okay, so Jesus is fully God, but he's also fully man, he's two different people. Right. He's like a Bru a Bruce Banner type. He's like a high type. He's like personalities.
Yeah, like he's like vying for control. Yeah, like he's he's he's the Bruce Banner, but then he's also the Hulk and it's just in one body and somehow it just works, right? It does not mean that there were two persons inside Christ, a divine and a human. That's also a heresy and we have to stone you. No, no.
You will be stoned. It was just a bit for the radio, James. And unfortunately, it is a heresy. It's known as Nestorianism, and that also the church condemned. Jesus never gave any indication that he had a split personality.
Okay. So John 10:10 says, I have come that they may have life and have it more abundantly.
Okay, so I. I have come. It's not like we have come. There's a human and then this divine, we are coming. He just kind of like his eyes roll back in his head and they start glowing.
Like, no, that it didn't happen.
So it's kind of like I have come. Right, right. It's kind of like you've got milk, right? And you've got this chocolate syrup. And I'm going to put these two together.
And now I've got this new third kind of thing. I've got chocolate milk. And so that's what Jesus is. He's this hybrid creature that is two natures, but somehow one person.
Now we have to still new things. Two death sentences. Third time's a heresy. It does not mean that Jesus was a combination of human and divine into a new third kind of nature. Oh, wow.
That's also a heresy the church condemned. It's called Eutychinian, Eutychianism at the Sixth Ecumenical Council in 680 to 681.
So these councils really truly thought of everything. Oh, yeah. I mean, these were not fools. In today's world, people think maybe they know so much because. you know, I've done my research or something or they watched a video or they read read Somebody's post, these people were brilliant.
I mean, I read some of their works when I took. Early church history seminars. I mean, these are not like. bachelor's or master's level courses. These are PhD seminars.
in patristics. And I went in there thinking, ah, you know, this is, I just got to get it over with because patristics, who cares about that? I care about the biblical period, New Testament, and then I care about Maybe You know, down from the Reformation and all that, when all the fun stuff began happening, who cares about the patristics? And then I began to read some of their writings. Again, I'm not a big patristics guy.
I think sometimes there can be overemphasis on the church fathers, and that's not healthy either. But Having said that, when you read their writings and you see how How detail they get in their reasonings and their argumentations and the scriptural support of what there's affirming and what they're denying. It's mind-blowing. It is mind-blowing. I mean, so these people.
They knew what they were doing. What it means here, when we talk about that, it's not a combination into a third kind of nature. He had to be truly both. At all time time so he could represent us as man? And earn our salvation as God.
There is no third kind of nature happening here. Right. He needed, he needed to be both, he needed to fill both categories so that he could represent us and he could earn our salvation. That's so beautiful that God, before the foundation of the world, this was true of the Son, that he was fully God, fully man. It was just realized physically.
At the time of the incarnation. Yeah, I think there's people who are listening to this right now, Dr. Shine, they're saying that this is nitpicking. This is a bunch of nitpicking. And at the end of the day, what does it really matter?
Because people always love to say this line. They always love to say, you know, being a Christian isn't knowing about Jesus. It's knowing Jesus. It's having that relationship.
Okay, yeah, sure. You can say that. And it's a cop-out. But imagine if you treated other people like that. Look, I just want to know that you're nice.
I just want to be nice like you. I don't want to know where you grew up. I don't want to know what makes you who you are. I don't want to know your experiences or what you came to do or what you look forward to. I don't want to know any of that.
I just want to be nice like you are. Yeah. I don't really know you. You know what I mean? And, Dr.
Shum, maybe you can talk about this, like, why it's important. For us as Christians to know about Jesus?
Well, what we're going to discuss now is because we. We clarified what Jesus is not. But what I'm about to go over and what we're about to discuss is is the traditional, historic, and biblical position held by the Church. Traditional? Historic and biblical position held by the church.
And when I say church, I'm talking about Catholics. Protestants? Orthodox All of them. This is Their position on the nature of Christ. We may disagree over stuff like.
the baptism or Lord's Supper or the role of Mary and all those kind of things. But this is not what we disagree over. I can very well sit with a Roman Catholic when it comes to who Jesus is. as well as with an Eastern Orthodox, Who Jesus is, we shouldn't have a problem. And zero problem there.
And then when Mormons come in and say, hey, I'm in that group too. You got to go. You can't sit with us. Jehovah's Witnesses, you got to go. You got to go.
You got to go. You don't belong here. One of those Pentecostals. No. You have to.
You're out. You're out. Look at the heresy.
Now come on. But it is. Very good, dude. But truly, I mean, kidding aside, it is because if we can't agree on who the person of Jesus is, then we've got to cut ties as far as you can. It's foundational.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if we can't agree on that, there is no bond. There's also something to say here. Be careful. Be slow in calling someone a heretic.
Okay. Sometimes people throw that label around. That's a cult. This is heresy. Be careful.
These are things they need to disagree on. If they're not disagreeing on, you may not like their style of worship. You may not like their church governance, but you cannot call them heretics and cult and all that. That's right. Even I don't do that.
Right. Because I'll go, yeah, I don't like that because that's not quite biblical. Are they heretics? No, they're not heretics. Yeah.
They may think I'm a heretic. Yeah. I don't think they are. No. So.
We may disagree over many things, but we cannot disagree over who Jesus is. And what we're going to discuss now is coming from the church council that was held at Chalcedon or Chalcedon from October the 8th to November the 1st, 8451.
Okay. Almost an entire month, this one council. Just about it, yes. Wow. And it caused schism between the churches in the East and the West.
I mean, for a while, they didn't get along. Eventually, some things smoothed out. That's why we can say now this is what we all agree on. I have to think about these people who are sitting down and really hashing out all of these things. Let's get this language right.
Let's get this on paper. What do we believe about this? What does the Bible say about this? What doctrine are we going to hold to? And knowing that they were going to have to part company with.
People that they had maybe previously associated with, people that they knew.
Well, I would slightly disagree with that.
Okay. I think it was not as much like, okay, we're gonna craft this out so that then we we may have to disassociate with you. I don't think it was that That divisive in a sense? Yes, it was. But Right from the get-go, I mean, right from the time Jesus entered this world.
People knew about this. They don't they didn't quite formulate that into a doctrinal statement. But they got it. Mary Got it. When she says, you know, I am A handmaiden to the Lord, you know, use my body for this purpose.
She got it. She kept all those things in her heart. She got it. Joseph got it. You know, don't you know, take till you marry your wife and don't divorce her or whatnot because the child that is in her is of the Holy Spirit.
I mean, that's not some. Average statement: like, hey, buddy, just trust God and go with this right now. I'll explain to you later. No, everything that's said there In the birth narratives In the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Especially Matthew and Luke. It's deep theology.
And they are. accepting it. And they would never ever call themselves outside the normal spectrum of you know Old Testament Believers. Yeah, we considered radical. Yeah.
Sometimes people say, oh, you mean like Judaism? No, no, no. Judaism, to me, came after they rejected. The Messiah.
Okay. Prior to that, I don't think it was quite Judaism.
Now, there were different people, like the Dead Sea Scroll communities and the Qumran communities and the Essenes. They had their own little baptism purification kind of stuff there. But overall, they were quite agreed on basic things.
So we only got like maybe six or seven minutes left in the show. And I know we're not going to be able to cover these extensively. Maybe we can on tomorrow. But do you want to just very briefly tell us who Jesus is? Like cover who he is now that we've covered who he's not.
Absolutely. I mean, so we'll have more points, but here's one we can probably leave on. Jesus is truly human in body and soul. Just like he was and is truly God. in form.
Mm.
And when we say form, we're talking about essence, nature, and substance.
So Jesus is truly human in body, and sold just like he was And is truly God in form, which is essence, nature, and substance. His essence is God and human. His nature is, and his substance is. That's right. So imagine driving a very expensive car down a muddy country road.
Okay, that's what we're talking about here. Also, like a king becoming a beggar. These are good ways to think about. You know, how Jesus was. He's God, He is human, He's both in one.
Yeah, He doesn't change what the thing is. Even if it's in a different place than you might expect it to be. Right, right. Here's another one if our if we have a couple more minutes. Yeah, we do.
Jesus has two natures, not two persons, that's a heresy. Two natures, one divine, the other human. and they are distinct with distinct wills.
So the Bruce Banner argument breaks down because Bruce Banner and the Hulk are two different people in one body. Jesus is one person. With two different natures. Natures. What do you mean?
And maybe this is an episode discussion for tomorrow, but what do you mean by nature? What is his nature?
Well, so let's read some scriptures here that may clarify instead of me just going on a monologue here on natures.
So on one hand, In Matthew chapter 4, verse 1, Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward he was hungry. He was hungry. Yeah, yeah. That's a very mortal, very human.
Yeah, this was not a make-believe hunger. This is really hungry. Like we get about lunchtime, you start looking for something to eat, your sugar is dropping, you're like, I want to have something to eat. What can I have? On the other hand, Matthew 8.26 But he, meaning Jesus, said to them, Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?
And then he arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
So the men marveled, saying, Who can this be that even the winds and the sea obey him? And that would be very much, very much divine, reaching out and calming the creation that you have created. Yes. Wow. So on one hand, he is hungry, on the other hand.
He is calming the winds and the sea. If you calm the winds and the sea, you shouldn't be hungry. No, he is. Fully God, fully man, the natures are still intact. And they're not in conflict with each other.
They're not in conflict with each other. Yeah. So, on the one hand, I'll give you another one. On the one hand, John 16:28. Jesus said, I come forth.
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again I'll leave the world and go to the Father. On the other hand, in Matthew 18:20, Jesus said. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them. He's in one place and he's in all places.
Yeah. It's definitely something to contend with and to wrestle with. But I think the more that you do it, and maybe you can talk about this maybe on tomorrow's show as well, but maybe you could say a quick something here: is that the longer you spend in the Bible, the longer you spend quote unquote wrestling with this, the clearer it becomes somehow. It does. It does.
I'll give you one more example. And this is in Luke twenty three, forty six, when Jesus this is Jesus hanging on the cross. When he had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father Into your hands I commit my spirit. Having said this, he breathed his last.
Okay, it's over. On the other hand, in John ten, seventeen, it says Therefore my Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me. But I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down.
And I have power to take it again. But I thought he just Just kind of like fell into the hands of his father. At the same time, he could have just grabbed it back on. Yeah. Yeah.
He laid it down willingly. It was always within his power to lay it down and pick it back up. And I know there are people out there. There may be scholars, there may be. you know, agnostics.
There may be people who are the skeptical kind. There may be people of other religions like Islam or Hinduism, Buddhism, who are like, yeah, this is I'm so sorry. You have to rise above to understand this. That's right. This is not make-believe.
This is not some, you know, we can make Christianity very simple. Just remove all this stuff, just put it on the slow shelf. There is a God and he loves me. And as long as you live a good life and tell him sorry once in a while, everybody's good. And you know what's said is there's a lot of Christians out there who are perfectly willing to live that life.
And I'm sorry, that's not. What what we said over here, the traditional Historical and Biblical position. And millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of believers before Christ and since Christ understood this. And that's what we have to rise above. Even if that is on a higher shelf, rise above, Get up on the high shelf and understand this.
That's right. Your faith depends on it. That's right. That's right. So important for us to have these conversations, and we hope that they're being a blessing for you at home.
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