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Now let's jump in. If you're in ministry, scratch that. If you're alive right now, we all make mistakes. A lot of us make the same mistakes over and over and over. But how exactly do you learn from them?
Let's figure out what that recovery looks like coming up right now on the Clearly Today Show. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. And if you're listening for the very first time, we want to hear from you: 252-429-6069. And if it's your very first time ever texting the show, you're going to text today, T-O-D-A-Y.
That's going to get you in and it's going to get you a part of everything that's happening right here on the Clearview Today show. That's right, Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio today. It's good to be here. It's a great episode today.
Got a very special guest. Do you want to introduce our guest today? Yes, I have my good friend, Dr. John Chekwu, here with us. He has been a pastor for many, many years and has been especially dear to me.
So, uh, Welcome to the show. You've been on this show before. Welcome again.
Well, thank you. This is fifth, sixth time you've been on. You've been on quite a bit.
Well, I'm not sure that many times, but whatever. If it feels good, you know, whatever. That's right. We got to just get the little badge with the five and six on it. We'll just cross it out and put like a three or four.
Well, the thing about Dr. Check is that he himself has a show. That's right. I've been on his show before, and so it's great to have the tables turned here. Yeah, tonight.
It's fun because I really, I don't want to let the envy get to me, but Check It Out is probably the greatest name of a show ever for a guy named John Check. No doubt. Did it come to you instantly or were you like, you had to think on that? It's one of those things that just popped in my head. It's just a gift and it's right there.
I mean, you popped in my head right out of my mouth. John Check. Check it out. I mean, it just works. How many times a day do you hear somebody say, check it out?
So many times. Man.
Well, we've been talking about the Trinity. We've been talking about the nature of God. But because of your book, Dr. Sha, do you want to talk a little bit about this book, about how you and Dr. Check kind of met each other, how this Kind of came to be today?
Well, he was a pastor in our town at a local church. And so that's how the connection happened. And over the years, our friendship has grown. I have preached in his church. He's preached here before.
And And then, of course, he wrote a book. This is not the first one. I mean, the other one was Methodist Minister Tells the Truth. Correct. And it was a great book.
And it is still. It's still in my office. I've recommended it to many people. And then this one is the next one that I'm so Glad to have you back. And it's a great book.
Well, thank you. I've enjoyed writing it and I've enjoyed making plenty of mistakes. The title of you. Oh, go ahead. Dr.
Shack, tell us about it. I mean, the title is just. Money. Yeah. It's great.
Tell us about the title and kind of what the heart behind the book is. You know, some of my ideas come at night when I'm Tossing and turning in bed and thinking through life and o other things like that. Not uh that I don't toss and turn often, obviously. I you know, I I don't have that many good ideas. But this this particular idea I thought Well, you know, people all often waste their mistakes and don't learn from them because they sometimes they're the first reaction a lot of people have to a mistake is they they defend it and they get just they get hostile.
They, you know, m i if you point somebody if you tell somebody they m made a mistake, the first reaction is defensive. Right. And I was thinking about the title of the book. I and I I heard somebody one time just somewhere, I don't even know where I was. Throw this word out.
Experience is what you get right after you need it. And it's probably 25 years ago when I heard somebody say that. And that popped into my head. I thought, oh, what a great title for a book. Yeah.
Before I even thought about writing the book. Stuck with you all these years. Oh, you had the title long time ago. Long time ago. Yeah.
And I thought, I've made enough mistakes to fill up a book and maybe even an encyclopedia or a set of encyclopedias. How good does that feel when a title you've been hanging on to for years and years finally comes out?
Well, it's fun. It didn't take long to write the book because I made so many mistakes. I just had the biggest mistake I had in the book was getting the grammar checked. Yeah. That's such a profound statement, though.
Experience is what you get right after you need it. I mean, Dr. Shah, talk about mistakes and mistake recovery. Why do we tend to bristle at dealing with mistakes? We want to cover it up.
We want to defend it rather than face it and process it and grow from it. Because we like to present a front. We think, you know, I'm perfect. I don't make mistakes. I have never made mistakes.
And that's not the case. I've made plenty of mistakes in my life. And, but, you know, like John Maxwell talks about falling forward. Right. I think if you fall forward, which means you don't allow it to bring you down or you don't judge your character by it, but instead say, okay, that was a mistake.
That was a lesson learned. What can I do better? But these two books, you know, The Methodist Minister Tells the Truth and then Experience is what you get right after you need it. They they will help Not just a pastor, but anybody. Learn and not make those same mistakes because some mistakes are not worth making, if you're very honest.
You know, you often hear from young people: it's like, I want to make my own mistakes. You know, I re I learned good by experience. And that's like, okay, I get it. I get what you're saying. But some mistakes can be very costly.
So learn. From from us.
Well, you know, the scriptures are full of advice. I've Had a practice of reading. Through Proverbs very often, and that's where that's where you encounter real mistakes when you read through Proverbs. tells us a lot about life experience and so forth. We we know that there are several fools listed in Proverbs, and one of those is someone who doesn't learn from their mistakes.
And another fool listed in Proverbs is someone who doesn't learn from other people's mistakes. And I think it's important to realize One of the biggest lies told is when people say, I don't repeat my mistakes. If you you're going to repeat them unless you learn from them in a way that's positive and beneficial. And you begin that learning process by owning it and saying, Yes, I did this. I joked with my wife many years ago that my middle name should have been My name is John.
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it. Check. But if you think about how that goes. Of course, we know from a different proverb: if you cover your mistakes up, you'll not prosper, right?
And so from that premise, you understand there's got to be a reason. And a way to process mistakes. Right. I had a seminary professor who was no longer employed by the same seminary years ago who said. He he taught us how to process stuff.
He said, The first thing you need to do when you make a mistake Is ask yourself, what was my role in this decision? What was my role? Because sometimes mistakes are made because. You carved out the wrong role. You shouldn't have been doing what you're doing.
And I've had plenty of experience with people in the church who would go jump into something headfirst. Not figure out their role and they land right on their face. And then they come sometimes become bitter and belligerent. If you know what your role is, then you can process it. And I think it's important to remember that.
The next step in overcoming the, or at least not becoming cynical when you make a mistake. is not only process it that way. I don't know a name that you've Name the mistake. Confess the mistake, certainly. And I I would say you you confess a mistake.
As broad as the mistake is to the people it touches, no broader. Yeah. And so if you do that and you name your role. And then you begin to ask, what did I do wrong? What could I have done better is a better term for that.
And from that point. You begin to get healed. And the healing will prevent you from becoming bitter and angry and and And and destroying your your life from the inside out. Yeah, yeah. Tell me what you guys think about this because I was thinking, Dr.
Shai, as you were talking about like the weight and the costliness of mistakes. I think a lot of times people in ministry. Can Will listen to a conversation like this and say, Well, no, not me. I know that people make mistakes and I know that I'm going to make mistakes. But what we're thinking of a mistake is like, oh, I forgot to send that email.
Oh, I forgot to invite that family to the cookout. They're not thinking of, I did this mistake, and now families are leaving the church. They're not thinking of, I hired the wrong person, and now there's a church-wide scandal. You know, we don't think of those mistakes. And those, I think, are the mistakes that we tend to, like you said.
Bristle at or or defend and be like no, no, no, I couldn't have known. There was nothing I could have done. Tell talk to us a little bit. Maybe you can start, Dr. Shah, about just like The gravity of our mistakes that we don't even see coming.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, and this applies across the board, doesn't have to be just in the ministry context, but of course, since we are two pastors. Talking about this, that is the main focus, but it can apply elsewhere too.
But I've seen people do things and And because God, by His grace, covered that mistake or. Other people stepped in and and tried to You know, help the situation, it seems like, okay, no harm done. It's all good. Everybody good. It's good.
We're good. No. It wasn't good. In fact, it was horrendous. It was terrible.
It it should not have happened. And so My encouragement to young pastors is just because people stepped in. and God by His grace covered you Don't presume that what you did back there was okay. Learn from that mistake. In fact, Over the years, I've had mentors in my life that I said, Hey, would you mind just talking to me and bounce that I can bounce things up.
I mean, Don doctor Check is one of those for me. Can I bounce this off of you? I've called you before and sought advice in situations that If I hadn't handled it correctly, it would have gone in a bad way. Not horrible. But it would not have ended well.
Yeah. So It helped me, the advice he gave me. I said, Okay, I didn't see it that way. Applied it. And amazingly, It was great.
And I walked to me going, man, shoo.
Well, I have the effect on a lot of people.
So, you know. Thank goodness that I averted What could have possibly been been some hurt feelings. Or a sense of You know, it was about baptism. Should we, the person who was coming to church? was coming from a different tradition.
And so, when the baptism issue came up, the question was: why should I? I'm already a Christian. And you're telling me. I don't have to be baptized to be saved. I was like, right.
I picked up the phone. I said, I have a question. How would you handle this? He said, just say it's a family tradition. Mm-hmm.
Oh. That's it, it's just a family tradition. We've been saying that at Clearby for years. It has become part of our vernacular.
So it really has. Guess what the gentleman said? It's like, okay, I'll do it. And if it's family traditional. And I was like.
That could have gone very different if I had said, no, let me explain to you from the scriptures how this works. He would have, you know, kind of dug in his heels, or he would have brought up more questions or felt like I'm. not calling him a good enough Christian or whatever.
So These are the kind of mistakes that you're talking about. Not just, you know, I forgot to call this or call that. Right. I think that speaks to your earlier point: like, you don't have to be the one to make the mistake. You don't have to be the one to gain that experience for yourself.
Lean on the experience that other people who have gone past you, other people who are either in your field, we're talking about ministry, or others who are just further along in life than you. You can lean on their wisdom, lean on their experiences. That's right. Well, I've I've been very fortunate in that I've I've had staff that were always smarter than me and always knew more about their area of expertise than I would ever known about or even I had all kinds of mentors early in my career. And including Pastor Shaw, has been a friend as a mentor as well.
The point is. Everybody makes mistakes.
Now, what you're talking about, let me define a mistake a little differently than I think you did about failing an email. That's an infraction. You apologize for an infraction, right? I'm sorry. but you ask for forgiveness from the other person If you've offended them and made a mistake, so to speak, there's a difference in an infraction and a mistake, in my mind.
Yeah, yeah. An infraction. Probably fairly harmless. And you just say, Hey, would you forgive would you forgive me? Or even say, I apologize for that.
But when you ask for forgiveness from someone about a mistake, You just put the ball in their court. And you're you've you can let go of it. Yeah. Not not be troubled by it at all. 'Cause it's up to them for the next action, which is one of forgiveness.
That's so good of the difference between a mistake and an infraction. Because for so many people, myself included, any sort of misstep feels. How did you do that? Yeah. Why did you?
And I talked to myself too. Yeah. That's because you're a type A person. You know, if you're type A people need to be perfect and feel threatened and almost like they're under a death penalty if they make a mistake. Have you been sitting in my car listening to my talks to myself?
Well, you know, yeah, probably have. But in fact, type A people. have a real hard time not being perfect. And it goes back to how early childhood development goes, frankly. When a child, an example of making a turning somebody into type A is you have a small child.
You ask them to make up their bed and you go back in and correct what they've done. You just sent the wrong signal to that kid. And the kid grows up believing. A perfect-made bed means I'm okay. And that becomes type A kind of thinking.
Yep. I didn't mean to be your therapist. That sounds familiar. How do you bring that into your ministry, like knowing that you're type A or type B or whatever type. You know, how do you start how do you start healing from those mistakes knowing you're bent?
You know what I mean? Well, that's the first place to begin is understanding how I'm wired. Yeah. And I I've grown enough to really let go of some of that type A stuff. Mm-hmm.
But I'm perfectly happy to see people make mistakes in our church. Because they're trying doing something. And when I say that, I don't feel the need to go correct what they've done. And staff members as well. You know, when I've had staff members who really did some really stupid stuff, and to be blunt about it, really stupid stuff.
And I would bring them in, and we'd talk. I would say, let's think about how that could have gone. Where did this begin? Where did the mistake start? And I let them process it for themselves.
And my in kind of help helping nudge that along, I don't ever blame them. I don't ever get mad at them for making a mistake. And if you start getting mad at people that you're around for making mistakes, They're just going to internalize it. They're going to become more passive and aggressive. And eventually they will lash out in some other way.
Yeah. It's almost a waterbed effect. Yeah. You push it down over here, it pops up over here. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think people in ministry, you know, listening to this, maybe they've had some experience with that. Maybe they are experiencing that right now. Dr.
Shah, how would you? Encourage those people. Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is why this conversation is happening: to learn from not just the mistakes of others, but also learn how to process those mistakes, learn how to recognize your bent as we're talking about the different personality types. Learn the bent of other people.
What makes them tick? You know, what makes them, what gives them energy. And I'm not talking about some new age thing, but what what brings joy in their life? How do they like to serve? And how do they like how do they find satisfaction?
So, learning that bent and then going along with that, I think it makes a big difference.
So, these are some of the things that. I believe if people understand, I'm not saying that you will never ever make mistakes.
Well, you never have that moment. No, you'll have those moments. But hopefully there will be less and you'll be able to help other people. And not just avoid, but learn from their mistakes. Yeah.
Dr. Tarter, you talked about mentors. We've we've both kind of had that conversation. You've been a tremendous and continue to be a tremendous mentor in my life, in our lives, because you understand that. You understand that we're all natured and wired differently, and you tailor your approach based on who you're talking to.
I mean, I've seen you interact with people on the staff and other people beyond the staff differently based on who that person is and what will best navigate them forward. I know that's been true in my life, and I've seen it true in other people's lives. Is that a skill that you feel like you had to Develop, or has that always kind of been a part of your leadership strategy? Great question. Very early on in my life, I was in leadership position.
In school, I was the headboy, which is like the president of the student body. And so I learned how to work with different students and and You know, fellow students, and so I knew this person likes to do this, or that person is geared that way, and so. Early on, I had experienced it. And at the time, I wasn't thinking like I'm thinking today. At the time it was just like Oh, I know her.
She's gonna be upset about this. I just went by that. But later in life, I began to realize, oh, that's personality type. That's like, Dr. Check just talked about type A personality.
Oh, sh she is type A. And she is going to hit the roof on that one. All right, so let me approach her this way. Or let me. you know, so It has been a growth process for me.
Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about not defining yourself by your failure, because I think that's a big theme in your book: your failure is not you. And yet, a lot of times in ministry, because the stakes are so high, right? We're dealing with people's eternal salvations, it's easy to put this immense amount of pressure on yourself to succeed. And when you don't, like you said, you internalize that.
Okay, well, I'm not the Christian, I'm not the leader that I'm supposed to be. Why is that dangerous?
Well, uh being a a perfect with a type A b kind of a approach. Pushes people away from you, first of all. Because when you begin to point out people's mistakes they uh other people hear that as you being an adult sha wagging a finger in their face, first of all. That's very important to r to realize. And body language is also very important.
You know, if you're if you're in a room with somebody and your and your body language is hostile if you're not aware of your body language. You build a barrier almost immediately. I'm not sure I'm answering your question.
Well, yeah, I'm just saying, like. when you're with let's say i'm on the receiving end of that right right because i'm in ministry There are eternal stakes.
So, I'm going to internalize this mistake that I made or this correction that I'm getting. I'm going to internalize that. Why should I not do that? You know what I'm saying? I mean, because I think we can agree that's not a good thing to do, but why not?
Because that builds barriers. Yeah. You know, what what I would say even in our political world today is what people want is transparency and honesty. Yeah. That's why that's why people are voting in droves for people who are transparent and honest.
And even some even bad people that are representing certain values that we disdain are open and honest about what they believe. And people are drawn to that. People are drawn to people who care. And if you demonstrate that you care, That builds bridges. And if you take that stuff personally and internalize it, you're just pushing people away.
In fact, what you're doing is you're sitting on a time bomb because it's going to come out. And so understanding that.
Now, let me say this: I have different things I do along the way. as checkpoints in my own life even today. For instance, here's one of my kind of sayings. If I'm never If I'm never disillusioned by somebody's action. I am too cynical.
And if I'm frequently disillusioned by people's a absence or or or actions rather. I am too naïve. Those are guardrails that I have in my own life today. And so as a result of that Those guardrails are Im very important. Additionally I have people around me.
I have actually had In my different churches, I've actually had spotters in my churches. And I've said to people very candidly, People I trust. If you see my anger coming out in an unhealthy way in a sermon, Please tell me. That goes a long way at building bridges with the people you're talking to. Yeah, that's right.
People that I've said that to have become almost lifelong friends because they understand that I trust them, to be honest with me. And that's a two-way street, right?
So that's part of what I'm talking about. When it comes to ministry, Dr. Shah, do you think that more. people fall into the naive category or the cynical category or both? Do you think it's it's even quantifiable across ministry?
I would say who you're around. I was blessed with my with having a dad. I really feel like I've God has blessed me with people around me. who genuinely cared. And I had this God given sense to go I need help.
I need to talk to this person. That makes a difference. I know there's some people listening out there say, I wish I was like that. I wish I had that upbringing. No, you can have it now, whatever stage in life you are, wherever you are, you can.
You just have to be open to see that. Uh so By watching my dad as a pastor, I was able to see Even though I was not going in ministry, I was able to see how he led people. and then watching Nicole's dad. as a pastor I was able to again see See him, how he conducted himself with people. He was not always.
Again, my dad and my father-in-law were not like, oh, they were the best pastor. No, there were people who. Hated their guts. Oh, yeah.
So don't think for a moment that when I'm saying this, that it means like you are. Just everybody wants to give you a hug. No, you will have people who will say, I don't like him, but whatever.
Well, if you have a strong need to be liked, you're in the wrong profession. I'm trying to get over that myself. Good.
Well, you know, it's important to understand, too, that the wiring says a lot as well. A different factor I want to point out, too, is accountability partners. And I have a small group I meet with every month. We debrief with each other. As ministers, very candid, we've been meeting for probably close to 20 years, the same three of us.
And ha in addition, I would say If you're spending Way too much time with church people. You're in the wrong place. I have grieved over people in the community that I've left. More than I've grieved for the church people I've left in my ministry. Often that's true.
Some of both. Not all or nothing. What I'm trying to say is not all or nothing. But the point is. Having people around you that are normal And some some unchurched people.
I'd learned a lot from. years years ago I was p playing in a golf tournament With a situation, it could have blown up in my face because the three people in our group. Had accountability that could have gotten them fired if they'd shown their bad side in front of the preacher. And I got on the first tee and said three dirty words and said, Let's go have fun, play golf. And it built a bridge that you would not believe.
That bridge. got those I had I had eight or ten people from that particular sheriff's department coming to my church. Every Sunday. Wow. It actually saved our bacon because we had somebody come in to rob the church, and there were eight deputies, six deputies sitting there in the pews.
One of them pulled out a gun and I saw the gun come out of his holster. Oh, wow. In a church. Yeah. And the three bad guys got up and walked out to their credit.
But, you know, you build bridges along the way. And sometimes I think our perfection Creates a barrier.
Now, I don't recommend preachers going out and saying three dirty words to get people to play golf. Right, right. It worked that day, right? It didn't blow up in my face that day. There you go.
There you go. And fortunately, there are no church people around me to turn me in. That's right. But we got like four minutes left in the show before we have to wrap up. Maybe the two of you, if you would just give our listeners one last piece of advice, because there's people listening who are like, I've made a lot of mistakes in ministry, I've made a lot of mistakes in life, and I fear I'm going to keep making them.
What is one encouragement, one thought you'd leave them with? Be teachable. Just know that all of us are work in progress. Just because I may not make the same mistakes you are making, I have plenty of. Pitfalls ahead of me and those I face.
And it's only by the grace of God and godly support and wisdom and prayer. And accountability. I mean, this is how it works. You know, you need each other.
So don't get isolated. Connect with each other. Don't get in your own head because that's, I think, where problems happen when we get stuck in this place upstairs and we feel like, oh, I cannot get better, or I am not good enough, or I Whatever, and that is not a good place to be. Connect with your team, connect with people around you, find people who have been down that path and learn from them. Get this book.
Get this book, Experience is What You Get Right After You Need It by Dr. John Check. Books like this will help. Oh, Amazon and JohnMcheck.com. There you go.
But my point would be this. And I probably should have led with this. Be thankful for all things. This is the will of God for you. If you can focus in on some tidbit along the way, whatever bad has happened to you.
and you can grab that one tidbit to be thankful for. and focus in on that. Your life will change. Amen. And I heard David Jeremiah preach a sermon recently that the ultimate test of one's spiritual maturity.
is whether or not they're generally thankful for the things that happen in their life. I thought, wow, that's not a test I've heard before, but I liked hearing that. Thankfulness is a key. You know, we find that. God turned his back on people because they weren't thankful.
And thankfulness is a big key. If you can find that one even in in tragedy, If you can hang on to that one thing that offers you hope. Even even if it's sudden death of of a child or or a loved one. The resurrection is real. Hang on to something that you can hang on to that will help your life become better than it is now.
Amen. I love it. Man, what a wonderful episode. Dr. Shaw, thank you so much.
Dr. Jack, thank you for being on the show again today. Make sure you guys go pick up a copy of that book. Experience is what you get right after you need it. Right, did I say that right?
Yeah, that's it. Right after you need it. Make sure you pick up a copy. John Mcheck.com. JohnMcheck.com.com.
Amazon has it as well. Amazon.com as well. Make sure you pick up a copy. It is a wonderful, it's an inevitability that you're going to make mistakes. That's right.
But how you recover is up to you. That's right. And we also want to encourage you guys to keep listening to the show. Keep texting that number, 252-429-6069. Maybe tell us some of the mistakes that you've made in your life.
You don't have to get into detail if you want. But listen, God is working through all of us. And we want to hear from you. How is the show helping you? How is it helping your ministry, your pastoral team?
How is it helping your family? These are all things that we want to hear from.
So make sure you text us 252-429-6069. And here's how you can help the Clear Read Today show by following along on any one of our social media platforms, by following along anywhere podcasting content can be found. You'll be up to date with all future episodes, and you can share those episodes with your loved ones as well. You can also head on over to Abadanshah.com forward slash give to financially support the show and help us to continue to reach as many people as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's right.
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We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
