We believe in God the Father. We believe in Christ the Son. We believe in the Holy Spirit. Our God is three and yet one. Let's figure out why that's important.
Coming up right now on the Clear Ve Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Thank you for joining us here on the Clearview Today Show with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If this is your first time ever tuning into the show, we want to say thank you for tuning in, whether it's on the radio, whether it's through podcasting, whether it's on YouTube, Pray.com, any of our platforms. We want to say we're glad you're here. And if it's your first time, we want you to join the mailing list as well so you can stay up to date with all of Dr.
Shah's ministries right here at Clearview Church. Link is in the description. Dr. Shah, it's good to see you. It's good to see you guys.
Amen. We're continuing the conversation today about Nehemiah. Man, this is such a great book. There's so much in there, so much to unpack, and so applicable for us, not just in a leadership setting, but just in an obedience to God frame of mind. I mean, how do you step up and do what God has called you to do?
Nehemiah is filled with examples. That's right. You know, we talked yesterday about this scene in Nehemiah chapter 9. Where the people come together and they make this profession: the Lord our God is one. There is one God.
And, you know, Dr. Shah, we believe in the Trinity. There are people out there, and I don't know how widespread this is in mainstream Christianity, so maybe you can kind of touch on this. But I would assume there are people who think that the Trinity is something that was invented by the early church because they don't think it's in the Old Testament. Yeah, and it's.
Unfortunately, it's not just outside, it's in the church. And sometimes it even is taught in seminaries in theological settings where the idea of the Trinity is new. It was something that the church wrestled with, grappled with in the first century. And then they said, okay, I think this is how we need to see God from here on. And I disagree with that.
And I'm not the only one. There are others who have also disagreed with this over the centuries. And it's because when you read the Old Testament, carefully Yeah The Trinity is there.
Now, you may not understand it as clearly as in the New Testament, but it is there.
So, a point of distinction that I want to make, and maybe for the listeners too, is scholars and seminarians who would say the Trinity is a new concept. The early church Came up with this. Would they still say, but it is true, we believe it. It's just that it was discovered. Or would they say it's not biblical?
Well, they will say that when they say early church, they're talking more about that first church, right? This church that was there on the day of Pentecost. They are the ones who recognized it. Or when Jesus was baptized by John John in the Jordan River. Seeing the heavens open and the Father speaking, and the Son is there in the water, and then the Holy Spirit descending.
In what appeared to be almost like a dove coming down and perching on him.
So it felt like.
Okay, I think there is a Trinity. The Trinity is something real.
Now let's work from this new. A new understanding of God. Got you.
So, would they say that the Old Testament writers then either were ignorant to it or didn't believe in the Trinity? That's what they would say, yeah.
Okay, yes. They wouldn't argue that since the early church discovered it, it's probably not a biblical. They would just say, No, it is biblical. The Trinity is real, but Old Testament is real. It's discovered and ratified later.
Yeah, and then they will some some definitely will believe that uh the the whole idea of Trinity is is is false. And the church conjured this thing. And it's does not have any biblical basis Old and the New Testament. But your point is that not only is it biblically sound in the New Testament, it's biblically sound in the Old Testament. It was always there.
And those people understood it. And it was not as hidden. Right. It was not as hidden. For our listeners and viewers who are tuned in today, because I would imagine we have people from various walks of life, from various faith traditions.
Can you walk through some examples in the Old Testament where we see the Trinity? Where people might, you know, there people may argue, but you can point out clearly, like, hey, this is an example of the Trinity present in the Old Testament, and people would have understood it as such. Of course.
Sometime back, I preached a message through the book of Judges, and the message was titled Sightings. And in this message, I examined carefully the angel of the Lord.
Now, I have done that in previous messages, but in this particular one, we took some time because in Judges chapter 13, verse 21, it says, When the angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the Lord, and Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die because we have seen God.
So I I took that as my launching pad to then talk about Who is the angel of the Lord? How do we see him in the Old Testament?
Now I have talked about in Genesis chapter one, we see in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void. Darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Lord was hovering over the face of the waters. There you have something other than the The main person of God, you have the Spirit of God hovering.
So already there is a plurality in the Godhead. We're not ready to say it's Trinity, but there definitely is a plurality. But then you go into the rest of the chapter one. And you s you hear it said, Let us make man in our image. Again, some people have said that's just a royal we.
It's got nothing to do with. The Trinity, I disagree. I think it definitely does. Even a royal we, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but even a royal we grammatically implies other people. Like if I said, hey guys, we really need to get this studio cleaned up.
I'm not talking about like one person. I mean, like you, but you among plural, right?
Well, I mean, I could be wrong on that. Are there other places where even if we believed, which we don't, even if we believe that that was a royal we that God uses there, let us make man in our image. Does God use that language anywhere else? Yeah, I mean, there's also where when they were trying to build that tower of Babel into the heavens, they were trying to sort of create this temple and somehow create a place where they could escape the flood. You know, that's what that's what really they were doing.
Yeah.
Somehow to protect and preserve themselves. And God said, Let us go down and confuse their language.
Well, even if it's royal we Who is God talking to? I mean, when a king says we will. Think about this matter. A more or something like that. You know, there is a decision the king has to make, and the king says, we will think about on this matter, and we will be present at that occasion.
Okay, he's talking to someone. But in this context, let us make man in our image. Who else is there? Right. There's no one there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, if you talk about let us go down, well, he's up there. Who's he talking to? I guess the angels? You think he's talking to the angels? Let us go down.
But it doesn't say anything about angels. Right. So unless you You sort of insert other ideas and characters. It doesn't make sense. There is implied and pretty much explicit plurality.
Dr. Shaw, it does seem like, you know, in order to explain away the Trinity in the Old Testament, people are jumping through more and more hermeneutical gymnastics. When if we just read the text for what it is, it seems to clearly point to the Trinity. Yeah, absolutely.
So, just that royal we, we need to dispense with that and just stick with the fact that there is a conversation taking place in the Godhead. And then, when God explicitly says, The Lord your God is one, then now we need to wrestle with. And try to reconcile what does that mean that he is one and yet there is a plurality? Mm-hmm. If both of those things are happening, then you have to work on bringing them together instead of denying one or the other.
Did you ever see that little video where the two Irishmen are talking to St. Patrick and he's trying to explain the Trinity? No, it's mortalism, Patrick. Every single time he tries to explain the Trinity, they find a reason. Do you think it's explainable?
I think it goes beyond our understanding. But yeah, I think it's, I mean, like one times one equals one. Equals one, yeah. Yeah.
There's three ones, but it all equals one. Yeah, it's not one plus one plus one equals three. Right. It's one times one times one equals one. Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there a good analogy that we can point to? I mean, I know that analogies at any point are going to break down, but is there one that you found that is particularly helpful in explaining? It is that multiplication. Yeah.
Okay.
So one times one times one. That makes sense. Yeah, that to me is probably. The best one? But you know going back here To this whole concept of was the Trinity there in the Old Testament?
It's very obvious. The let us passages tell us that the creation passage let us make man in our image, even that we can sort of explore a little more.
So it begins with Let us make man our image. Whose image? The Spears image? The father's image? Whose image are we going to make them?
Because they are spirit. Oh wait, there is a person who may have something That can be reflected. And that is. The second person, which is Jesus. wait.
Jesus hasn't been born yet. He hasn't taken on an earthly Form At this point. He will do it. for us two thousand years ago when he will be born In the womb of Mary and and then nine months later he'll be born in in the city of David in Bethlehem, and then he'll grow up 33 some years and then give his life just the way promised. But yeah, we can see that.
But then, how can it be in eternity past that he can be?
Something that can be reflected. I love this discussion. This is one of my favorite things that we've explored together sitting as a staff: is that the humanity of Jesus, the physical form of Jesus. Did not begin at conception. It did not begin when he was born or when he was in Mary's womb.
It existed prior, although different than the humanity that you and I have. That's right. In a Karl Barth, in his works, some things I agree with him, some things I don't. I would never try to sit there and argue with him, although he's probably enjoying the glory right now and discussing with other people all the things that he knew and didn't know. But I would never go toe to toe with Karl Bart.
Having said that, there is one thing that he did teach me through his writings is that In a sense, the pre-incarnate Christ was always there. Right? And, and.
So Yes, he was incarnated into our realm. Two thousand years ago. But the second person, the Godhead, being fully God, fully man, that concept was already there. hasn't been introduced into our realm, but he was always there. And That goes beyond our understanding.
Yeah, I mean, but it is real because he was a lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Right. Even then, you talk about like the angel of the Lord. Like, I would assume, I don't know if it's, maybe it's, maybe it's explicitly written, but I would assume that the angel of the Lord had the appearance of a man. People talked to him.
Yes. People recognized him. Yes. You know, Jacob wrestles with him. Yes.
How did he touch him? I think it actually says he wrestled with a capital M man. Yeah.
Yeah.
And this is before the incarnation.
So he, it wasn't that he took on human flesh. At the end, I mean, he did, but it wasn't that that's like the moment that God becomes man. Yeah, right. He was man when he wrestled with Jacob. That also feeds into that Trinity discussion in the Old Testament because if God's glory is such that He has to protect Moses from it and pass by Him, then how is Jacob able to physically touch if He is a spirited being?
Right. It's not possible. You say, well, temporarily, right, you're agreeing with us, actually, agreeing with Karl Barth that, yes, the pre-incarnate Christ always was, or Christ always was, fully God, fully man. Although he entered into our realm, And was incarnated 2,000 years ago. Again, that kind of goes beyond understanding.
But when you put passages together, and yes, it does make sense, it also answers another question that people ask: that when. Jesus or the second person of the Godhead became man. Did God grow? Mm.
Well Not if you believe like what Karl Bart said. Right. That Christ always was. He was always fully God fully man. And we were made in his image.
So there was never a point that God had to grow and go, oh, now I understand how humans feel. No, he was the original human.
Well, that says something about us, too, in our order, in the pecking order, I guess you could say. We take it on that God took on flesh. He became like me. But no, we were modeled after him. We, yes.
He is the template. We are the copies of the prophet. Adam and Eve were made in his image. Not like, hey, Jesus came down. I mean, he did.
He humbled himself. He took on flesh. But it's not that he became like me. No, no, no. I was always like him, right?
Yeah.
And entering into our realm, yes, he took on flesh, but the original, which is much more than just what we have here. Is much was much different and on a whole different plane.
So it was not like Jesus was You know, if he happened to nick himself on the throne of heaven, that he would start bleeding. I don't know. I doubt it. But he had that whole. On a whole different level, kind of like the Plato's, the Buddha, the shaft, the allegory of the cave, yeah.
I mean, there is some truth in that, yeah, there is some truth in that. The ideal is out there, yeah, I agree with you. There's the ideal, we are just the shadow, yeah, yeah. I think Plato missed the mark on a ton of stuff, but there is, I think you're right, there is some truth there, we can be used for the Trinity, that's right, yeah. And again, I don't claim to be a theologian of any sorts, although I've studied a lot of theology, but I think this definitely doesn't make sense.
Going back to the angel of the Lord, you all want to talk about that a little bit? Yes, absolutely.
So, the angel of the Lord. The Hebrew word is malak, which originally meant messenger. If you go to Exodus chapter twenty three, verse twenty. Behold, I send an angel before you. To keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
beware of him and obey his voice. Do not provoke him, for he will not pardon your transgressions. I literally read this an hour ago. Yeah.
Yeah.
Who has the power to forgive sins? Right. God does. Yeah, that's not an angelic thing. Yeah, angels are not given the power to forgive sins.
Well, let's keep reading here. For my name is in him. Not in all the angels. But just this one. In him.
In him. Well, I mean, of course. A son carries the father's name. That's how The name is in him. That's right.
And how often does the Old Testament talk about the name of Jesus? And how often? The New Testament talks about the names of Jesus and Emmanuel is Is God with us? With God with us. That's how his name is.
God's name is in Jesus. God with us. He is his son. He doesn't need a wife for that. Right.
He doesn't need a consort for that, a queen. Of the heavens for that, no, it's the relationship is of a father and a son, right? And the relationship has always existed. It's not that the son had to be brought into being like our sons are, but that relationship, father to son, has always existed. Always existed.
I also think about that task that you said, right? That the angel of the Lord is the messenger. Like we think of Jesus as this king, and he is that, but he also, his gospel, was bringing the message of God to the message of salvation. I think it's really great how all these pieces line up together. And you start seeing, and that's what this show exists to do, is to give you this clearer picture.
Of who Jesus actually is. If I can read a little more from Exodus chapter 23, but if you indeed, verse 22, if you indeed obey his voice and do all that I speak. Then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
Okay?
So see how the text moves between what the angel will do and what God will do.
So if you do what the angel tells you to do. Then the the angel will pardon you all the stuff And then I will also do this. See, because they're equal. And yet there's a difference. Verse 23: For my angel will go before you and bring you into the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I will cut them off.
The angel will do it, but I will do it. You see how we're sort of kind of weaving in and out of Who is doing the work? Because the Trinity does not work in isolation, they work together. That's right. Who died on the cross?
Not the Father, not the Spirit. The Son did. And yet. You know, it was, there's a fallacy that we have that on the cross, Jesus. Yeah.
Was separated from the father. And that's not, that's not true. We don't need to, we don't have to hold to that, to that doctrine. Yeah, we put it in our songs, right? The father turns his face away from the son, the trinity is broken.
Yeah, only to be broken. You latch on that phrase, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And people will see that and then just take it at face value, but that holds a deeper meaning. A deeper meaning, yes, a deeper meaning about a fulfilled promise, a deeper meaning that he endured that for us. Not that the father would ever do that because.
He didn't do anything wrong. He took our sins upon himself and suffered for us on the cross. And in that moment, all the sin and shame was put upon him. That's right. The father turning away was really.
Turning away from us, not from his son. He was his beloved son in whom he is well pleased. Do you think for a moment God was like, I'm not quite sure who I'm looking at right now? Absolutely. Yeah, I don't think God struggled with that.
Dr. Show, we got about like nine, maybe eight, nine minutes left in the show. Can you talk to the person who is listening to this saying, Listen, I believe all this stuff. I'm fine with the Trinity. I got no problem with that.
But I got a big presentation in a little bit. I got a difficult conversation I have to have. I got something that's on my mind. Can you talk to us about how the Trinity is not just a doctrine to believe, but it's a model for the Christian life? Absolutely.
There are two things I want to emphasize, and hopefully I'll do it again in the next show because we want to explore this subject a little more. You don't think we can adequately explain the Trinity in 30 minutes? No, definitely. 30 years, 30 millennia, millennia, millennia is not enough. I was a number one.
As A church. And I'm not just talking about one particular church, like Clearview Church. I'm talking about church. as Jesus talks about the church. We cannot afford to ignore this doctrine.
Losing this doctrine. We lose everything. Because in this doctrine we have the gospel. In this doctrine we have are very foundation. of our faith.
of the scriptures. Life here and life In eternity.
So we cannot ignore this. Those who have ignored it. whether as a church Or, as cultures and civilizations have fallen into not just sin, but a wrong belief. And there is no coming back. I've talked about some countries in Europe who did not emphasize this doctrine.
In fact, they didn't emphasize any doctrines. They were like, Well, we're Christians. What does that mean? I don't care. We just wanna be wealthy and have a good life.
And yes, love our people. And today, they're no longer Christians. They lost everything.
So, this doctrine matters. For personal life. It matters a lot. because it tells us that We have a man Up there we have our representative. Up there.
It's not just God's there. I'm down here. And man, I'm going through some stuff right now. I need, can you, can you, Ryan, sit and talk to me? Because I mean, I believe in God and all that.
I mean, I love God. I believe in God. I trust God. But, you know, you know, you know what I mean. I mean, I How can he identify with me?
Right. How can he truly understand what I'm going through? One of the biggest lies in the world. We have someone who understands better than our own parents, our own spouses, our own siblings, our best, best friends, and that is Jesus. That's right.
And he is there in the Godhead.
So talk to him. I mean, how sad it is if if someone were to say Or my my children would say, like, hey, that's our dad. Mm-hmm. Can you play dad for us, Ryan? Because I I can't.
I mean, I mean, he's my dad. Yes, yes, I mean, of course, yes, in Maran. But I feel like I can talk to you better than you. And that's fine. I get it.
'Cause some some dads can be, you know, a certain way and and be very authoritative or or very, you know intimidating and so the kids can feel that way. But how If you, Ryan, you know, someone's coming to you. If your own kids did that and said, Hey, I'd rather talk to John because my dad is shh, I mean. I mean, I know he loves me. He'll do anything for me.
But I'd rather talk to you. Yeah, that'd break my heart. You'll be like, really? Yeah.
I mean, is there anything I can do better? What have I done? Yeah, yeah, so I understand it kind of a hard You know, kind of like a military dad, you know, so like, but you, I mean, of course, you're so easy to talk to, but if your own kids did that, you'd be like. Kylie, what am I doing wrong? Yeah.
So When we do that with God and think like he doesn't understand. That is not. From God. That is not, that's coming, that's a lie from the enemy. That's right.
For the person who's listening and maybe is seeing this in a new light for the first time, realizing that God identifies with them, that He loves them, that He understands them better than anyone else can. And maybe they've been putting off, you know, accepting Jesus as their Savior. Maybe they've been putting off salvation because they had to have all these questions answered, or they didn't quite understand this, or maybe they thought of God as someone who was authoritarian and far off. Can you just walk that person through what it looks like to give their life to Christ? Let's begin by saying this: the simplest answer is not necessarily the right answer.
That's right. Sometimes people say this is too complex. This is too complex. The whole Trinity and God sending His Son into this world to die for us in our place, and I trust Him by faith that what took place 2,000 years ago was for me. I mean, this is too complex.
I just need to be a good person, and I just need to help people. And maybe I can even believe in God. I mean, yeah, I believe in a higher power. Just because it's simple does not mean it's correct. I can say it's simple that you are just nothing but You know, wind, or, you know, you're smoke.
I mean, that's all you are.
Okay.
You can fly, push you off a cliff, or you're going to fall. Yeah, it's easy to understand, but it's not true. I'm looking at you, but you don't exist. You're just nothing.
So I'm going to take a sword and just plunge you over, or you're going to die. Simplest answers are not always the right answer.
So here's my challenge to you: if you've never given your heart to Jesus Christ and you are confused on why we even say that. Uh dig in. Ask God. To open your eyes. The Bible says, If you seek me, you'll find me.
If you seek me with all your heart, seek him and say, Okay, so if the answer is complex, but if it is the right answer, then no matter how complex it is, I want that answer. That's right. I'm not going to settle for a simple answer that may be simply wrong.
So please show me. Amen. And God will show you. that he loves you, he made you. But you are fallen, you're broken.
You are. Sinful. You're waiting for God's judgment, but He sent His Son in your place. The one after whom you were created died for you. And took your sins upon himself.
He said, Well, who said that? Where did all this come from? The Bible is a record of God's promise and God's fulfillment. All you have to do is. take that by faith and say, okay, based on what I'm seeing here, Based on all these promises and prophecies being fulfilled, I put my faith.
Because the Bible says, if you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth, you are saved. I believe in my heart. I confess with my mouth, Jesus. You're saved. That's it.
That's as simple as that. That's right. It's a complex answer, but it is very simple. Amen. And if you made that decision for the first time today, or if you have questions about what it looks like to place your faith in Jesus and accept Him as your Savior, we want to help you take those next steps in your journey.
Write in and let us know what those questions are, how we can help you, how we can pray for you at 252-582-5028. Make sure you subscribe to the show anywhere podcasting content can be found, and you're supporting the show financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. That's right. Big thank you to everyone who is supporting us financially every single month over at pray.com on Abhadanshah.com. If you want to join the family, if you want to stay up to date with what we are doing here on the Clearview Today show and in Clearview Church through all of Dr.
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That's true. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
