We're all for taking action. We're all for taking bold risks. But every endeavor you take in the Christian life has to be done with faith in God. Let's explore how to have that faith coming up right now on the PV Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Thanks for joining us for another great episode of the Clearview Today Show, right here in our studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah.
If you're listening for the very first time today, we want to say welcome to the show. We're going to let you know exactly who's talking to you. Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to see you. Continuing the conversation about Nehemiah, we've explored fasting and praying. We've explored waiting.
We've explored risk, but ultimately it all comes back down to faith. That's right. That's right. And this is all under the guise of leadership, right? This is all under the, or the auspice, the umbrella, I should say, of leadership.
You know, Dr. Shah, we're talking about leadership. You've been in a leadership position for years and years and years. And it's kind of cool we always come back to Nehemiah. You know, people think Nehemiah is just a story about building and capitalizing on an opportunity, but really it's a story of leadership.
Absolutely. It is about leadership. And not just any kind of leadership, it's leadership in rebuilding, rebuilding. Not just the walls of Jerusalem, but rebuilding people. Nehemiah was called to help a people who had lost all hope.
for their future. And losing all hope was not just like, well, our city is not going to be what it used to be. No, losing all hope would be to abandon the plan of salvation that was given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. To lose that kind of salvation, I mean, that is the most critical thing on planet Earth. I would say that the critical thing in the whole universe, that Jesus Christ, who is coming from the line of David.
From the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob cannot come. Yeah, so this was going to be very, very important. Absolutely. Nehemiah understood that, and that's what gave him that laser focus on the finish line and what he needed to accomplish. Yes.
You know, it's funny because we talk about this, we talk about leadership, we talk about this is something that I want in my life, and I want to cultivate this. I want to be a great leader. And I love the way that you put that, Dr. Shah, is that he's not just telling the people, hey, it's important that we build walls. The first and foremost thing was we have to restore as a people our faith in God.
Amen. Amen. Well, let's listen to it. Nehemiah chapter 2 and verse 3. And Nehemiah said to the king, Now, when is this happening?
For those of you who may have joined us without a context, Nehemiah heard from his brothers that the people back in the ancestral homeland were suffering, the walls were still torn down, done several hundred years ago by King Nebuchadnezzar, and that God's plan of redemption was in jeopardy. Of course, we know God is sovereign, He will work all things together for good, and He did here too. But He works in real time, in real place, in real people. And so his heart was broken. He cried, He fasted and prayed.
And then, when God's timing was ready, He went before the king. And of course, He was going before the King this whole time, but now He was willing to show His emotions, and the emotion was sadness. It was not like He walked in there daubing his eyes, just his demeanor portrayed.
Something was not right. And the king asked him, What's going on? And for a Persian king to ask one of his assistants, his close confidants, what's wrong, means Tell the truth, yeah. This ain't like one friend checking up on another. This is the king saying, You need to tell me what's going on.
Yeah, something is not right. What are you keeping from me? This is a sorrow of heart, right? Uh, are you disgruntled? Are you upset with some decision that I made?
What is going on here? And this is where we pick up. In Nehemiah chapter 2 and verse 3, and he said to the king. May the king live forever. Why should my face not be sad?
Now it sounds like he's being arrogant, but he's not. He's actually so close to the king that he's willing to. Say something that is jarring. You know, there is a place to to speak things that are bold. Of course, he gives the classic line, which is: May the king live forever.
Like in England they would say, God bless Or the king queen. This is a way of saying may the king live forever. It means my allegiance to you is still exactly where it was. Why should my face not be sad?
Now Just think about it. You won't dare talk to your supervisor that way. If I were to ask you that question, you know, hey, man, you look sad today. And you say, Why shouldn't I be sad? Why shouldn't I be sad?
Yeah, I would never say that. That would be like I would be like, man, that's a little aggressive. Yeah. But here, desperate times call for desperate measures. I mean, this is not a time to go, well, I just, you know, I didn't want to say anything to you.
You know, well, heavy on my heart. You know what? I shouldn't bother you with these. You got so much to worry about. Hey, look, give me a few moments.
I'll be okay. I'm sorry. I truly apologize. I apologize. Because I know better.
I should have worked these things out. The things going on in my family, I'm sorry, just please. No, this is not that kind of a situation. This is a situation where, without the king's help, Nothing is going to happen. Nehemiah knew that too.
He was at risk and he knew that this was worth stepping out and taking that gamble and what before the king would respond. Yeah, I've got to impress upon the king how dire this is. Yeah. Dire enough for him to make such a jarring remark. Yeah.
Why should my face not be sad?
Had the king not had the relationship that he did with Nehemiah, had he not responded the way that he did, and we'll come to that in just a second, what was Nehemiah? at risk of here? What what were the the conse potential consequences of Speaking that way to the king. Of speaking in a jarring way? Of course.
I think Nehemiah was a very wise, seasoned. Not just a diplomat, but a what's the word I'm looking for? A statesman? Statesman, yes, yes, he was a very wise, seasoned statesman.
So when he's saying these things, and I think people can take notes here. You know, if you're busy re trying to read Machiavelli or something like that to figure out how to how to um you know carry yourself in a political situation or whatever, I would suggest reading the book of Neoman. Yeah, I mean no, The Prince is a good book to read if you if you know what I'm referring to, but this is very good. I believe Nehemiah knew how the king would receive it. This was not like, I'm going to.
Take a shot in the dark. Either I can end up in the dungeon or this could work out for great.
So, why should my face not be sad? No, I don't think it was quite like that. I think he knew. He knew very well I have to make a jarring remark. to make the king realize.
that this is so close to my heart That you have just touched a nerve. Yeah. For me to act out of character in this way is reason enough for you and I to discuss this. Yeah, you have just touched a nerve. Yeah.
Now he wasn't being rude. But it is right down the border. And I want to encourage you, pastors, leaders, if you are in some kind of a rebuilding mission, whether it's a business or your family or your church, just know that you need to learn some of these skills. Yeah. Let's back up here, give you a personal example.
When we We're working towards leading our church. Into this new era where this, I'm going back to 2008. We had just sold our building, a building that was paid for. A building that We couldn't Purchase and build today, you know, or at the time. Today, I think we can, but back in those days, We just didn't have the money to do that.
Barely. you know, twenty thirty thousand dollars in our account. But we needed to move. We needed to move our location.
So that we could grow. And then we could go back and reach that community, which we do now. Right. That's right. How would I talk to the people?
Of course, my initial conversation when I realized another family left the church or another family didn't want to join the church or another guest that we invited didn't want to come back. We we were we had gone through so many disappointments over the years. Nicole and I came to this church in 1998. I was called as a pastor in 1999 and this was 2005.
So do the math. That's six years. In that location, with hardly any growth.
Now the people were growing. There was something happening in their hearts, but another person in the church who was a a very Strong supporter. Was like, well, I'm leaving. I'm going to go to another church. And we're like, oh, no, please don't do that.
It was not just for the money, it was just like, oh, we're losing another person. Who I never thought would ever leave. But they are leaving. And we try to convince that person and say, please, please don't go. You know, we're working on this.
We're with each other. And the person was like, yeah, I understand, but hey, you know. I have to do what's best for me and my family, whatever. It's like, okay.
Okay. That's when I went to the Church leadership. And I said, Look, I will be here. Nicole and I have already made up our minds. We're not leaving the church, we're staying here till the day.
the hearse comes and takes our casket to the graveyard. It's done. But I want us to consider. Selling this building. And moving to another location.
Now, long story short. Two weeks, three weeks later, we came together, and every single one of them, I was expecting them to say, well, you know, we're not quite sure. They said, okay. I was like, wow. What did that do for you as a leader?
Like, talking about your leadership development, them jumping on board and being with you? What do you think that did for you as a leader? Oh, I mean, it made me realize that God was working. Number one, this was God's hand. This was God working in the hearts of his people.
Also, I realized, again, it's all God that. Time spent with those people. Matter. Yeah. Because they trusted me.
They knew that this man is not going to cut and run. When he's saying that he is staying here, he is staying here. He's going to work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs, whatever it takes. To support the rest of his life, he's not leaving.
So there was a sense of trust. Yeah. And then we did not sell the building until the end of 2007.
So imagine two more years of sitting there going, well, I thought we were like packing up, ready to roll. And it didn't sell. Yeah. And somebody's listening right now. Maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's a church planner, maybe it's a business owner.
Maybe, I don't know what your position is in life. Maybe you're retired and you're doing something different in life and you are discouraged. I would just want you to know: time means nothing. Most people quit in the last 25% of the race. Wow.
Yeah. And 25% of the race has nothing to do with, oh, in the last four years of my life or last three years of the job. No, 25% of the race might be. another ten years. But that's where they quit.
And Slow. Said, okay, we're gonna sell it. It took two more years. And then right before the market crashed The building was sold and we were, we stepped out. How do you, so, because we're talking about, you know, having faith in God when you're being a leader and you're making these moves.
How do you, how do you keep your faith from like waning or deteriorating in those two years where you're like, okay, I've got everyone on board. This is great. I appreciate your support.
Now we got two years of trying to do this and not succeeding in. Faith in the waiting when there's not a clear. In endgame. Like you can't see where the finish line is. Yeah.
I mean, you have to truly trust God. And how do you do that? Uh you have to spend time In God's Word. You have to spend time in prayer. You have to read books that build and strengthen your faith.
You have to listen to the stories of other people. who also did something similar. May not be in ministry or may be in ministry, but you have to read. I spent a lot of time reading those kinds of biographies and autobiographies and chronicles of people's lives and ministries, church ministries or parachurch organization, how they grew and how they struggled. I read a lot in that time period.
I read on how to lead change and how to help people transition.
So all this was part of that journey. And then showing up and doing the right thing until. God says, now is the time. Yeah, nothing changed. For those two years, I was not like, you know what, I'm just done.
I just whatever. I don't care anymore. You want to preach, you can preach. If you want to. No, nothing like that.
I was very, very systematically going through whatever I was preaching. And Doing ministry, outreach, Sunday school, evangelism, discipleship. We're just continuing business as usual, albeit. In the back of my mind, asking that question: okay, Lord, we did all that.
Now what?
Now keep in mind, we were meeting. We had a lady in our church at the time who was leading the effort to sell the building. And so I would meet with her, I would sit and talk, and she would say, Don't, it'll work out. It'll work out. God's timing.
Mm-hmm. And I would say, Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. I would and and then we would come together and have those meetings with the leaders of the church and she would give us updates on, well, we have so-and-so congregation that wants to buy our church. They don't have the money, they're talking to the bank, so we would kinda wait on them.
So there was a lot of things you have to keep doing. Just because something doesn't work out in your timing. Don't Sit on The couch. And and And you know. Sit and eat chips and eat just have Ben and Jerry.
What are the ones that your wife loves to eat? Oh, the funy. Don't sit there and eat funny. I stink up the whole house. Yeah, shout out Ellie.
You know, Libna loves funyuns too. I didn't know. Oh, God. Or at least she's playing like she does. I can't stand up.
Don't sit on the couch and just be eating funyunes. You can eat funny onions if you like funyuns. No, I don't eat funny. Stinky breath up. What I mean is, don't be like, just be like, I don't care.
Have you taken a bath? No, I'm just discouraged. And don't do that. Yeah. Get up and do what needs to be done.
That's right. That's right. There's no room for tortured heroes or tortured, what do you call it? Like, like this, this. People do that.
They crash. They completely crash. They give up. But then they think God's going to bring it. And all of a sudden, I'm going to rise to the occasion.
Well, here's what was happening in the meantime. In 2000. And five spring.
Okay, this is before. That person left the church and I went to our leadership. That happened in the fall. But in the spring of that year, a Christian school that was about to be shut down. And because another Christian school had opened, and all that was happening.
And so they had kind of given up. They called me to be the principal. The board asked me, said, Would you please help us? And I was like, I was doing my PhD work, I had everything laid out.
Okay, I got two more years. I'm going to finish. This is great. This is awesome. And then this came up.
I was like, I do need a second job to make ends meet because The church is small, they cannot help us, but so much. I need to do that.
So I began. My work as a principal.
sometime about April of 2025. And it was sometime around August Or September of 2025, that the person left the church. And it was about October of 2025 is when I met with the leaders and said we have to. We have to move. We have to sell.
So, I hope that timeline helps you. God knew that this was going to happen, this discouraging thing is going to happen. And so. He already, five months earlier, put me in a position to lead a school.
Now, God is doing those kinds of things in your life if only you have the eyes of faith to see it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, yes, when I share those stories, people are like, yeah, that's good. You know, I need to be kind of like you.
No, at the time I was.
So wrapped up with, okay, I got to get this school going. I gotta hire some teachers. I have to publicize the school so that more students will come because now there's another school, which, by the way, ended up being a great school. The other one, our children ended up going there later on, and wonderful. And we still support the school.
But this other school I was like, okay, I got to do this. I have to get the schedule done. I have to do this.
So God kept me busy. Busy, so there wasn't this opportunity to sit around and mope. Yeah, like, oh, you leave the church, and oh, I don't know what we got.
So, I was, I was not a single moment to stop and breathe. But, yeah, but I think you're right. Whereas the. the things that you were doing in that school. The leadership you were learning there helped you there.
Whereas, if you had just sat and waited and said, All right, God, now two years later, the building sells, you're like, I'm the same person I was two years ago, trying to rise to this occasion. No, there was a lot happening in that moment because I was also leading the school through a change, I was trying to get the school accredited. I was trying, and our school, I mean, that school ended up doing great for those four years that I was there. I mean, we were hosting the spelling beads and math Olympics and art festivals. I mean, we were doing basketball, we were doing great.
We started a computer lab, we kick-started the library, and I mean, it was just phenomenal work was happening. How do you, how do you, and I don't want to, because if you're going to say something, I don't know. I was going to ask in that season of waiting, in that season of that busyness of like, I got to get this done, I got to make sure this is happening, and then kind of looking back and saying, you know, God had all of those things already lined up so that I was, I had a lot of irons in the fire and I didn't have time to sit and mope. What do you feel like is the biggest Development in you as a leader in that season, in that busyness, and then sort of looking back and seeing how God orchestrated everything. I grew up.
I was growing up in those years because we have such a rose-colored view of the world, of how things work. I'm not saying we're dumb. I'm not saying we're stupid. I think we're very smart people in the things we like to do. But then the over the big picture, stepping back and seeing the big picture And how things really work and how God really works and how to really lead and guide people.
We are very naive. I think you're right. I think you're right. I think a lot of people, especially people who are tech-related, who work in like worship ministry or student ministry or this or that, they have their specialized things. Like, look how well I'm contributing to the church with this specific thing.
And it's like, yes, great, you're doing great. But I don't know how to talk to people. Yeah. I don't, I, when people come in and talk to me and the church, they leave feeling discouraged or they leave feeling offended or I am not organized.
So yeah, I'm really good at this, but the worship team or this team or whatever runs like. Chaos. It's great to have a speciality, but you can't be a specialist. You have to be a generalist. Yeah.
But you're doing great. Over the years, you've done a great job in leading the praise team. And I'm not just saying that. I'm I mean it. I mean, you're doing a great job and of course you as well with the student ministry.
But for me, in those those years, I I began to realize, wow, I was so naive. I am so naive.
So naive.
Now, I've always been in leadership. I was in leadership when I was in seventh grade. I was a scout troop leader. I became the vice president of the student body in my ninth grade year. Then I became the president of the student body in my 10th grade year.
I mean, I was always a leader, but still leading a church and leading a school, a Christian school for that, I realized how much I didn't know, how much I didn't know about people. Who are my friends? Who are not? What are people's angles? What are people's motives?
So God had to grow me. And those were some very, very difficult times.
Someone's listening to this right now, and they're saying, you know, I did not grow up in leadership. I'm now in a church, or I'm now in a job, or I'm now a husband or a wife, and I'm finding myself in a position of leadership I'm very ill-equipped for. I'm trying to look forward with faith, but sometimes it feels like. God expects me to see the future, or other Christians expect me to see the future. I don't know what he's gonna do.
So, how do I look forward in faith? How do I make moves not knowing what God's gonna do? What would you say? I would say, stay in the word. Pray daily, read books.
that wall foster that growth in your life? Talk to people. God brought mentors in my life. My dad was one of those people that I would turn to for advice. Talk to other people who will help guide you.
And through the years, God has put those people in my life that helped me grow and mature, and I could turn to them for advice. Surround yourself with those kinds of people. And just know there will be people who will come around you. They have no business being your mentor. Don't turn to the wrong people to be your mentors.
I even had one pastor tell me, it's like, hey, uh or gentleman, he said, I I I can be your mentor. I'm like, wow. I realized very quickly that now he definitely was not qualified to be my leader or my mentor. Is that a good rule of thumb? Just like if someone says, hey, I'm going to take you under my wing, typically you want to be a mentor.
I don't think that's always the case. I think there are people who can do that and genuinely care about you. Right. But this person, just by other things in his life, I was like, you know, going back to, I began this whole conversation about those years of waiting and all that to really get to another point. In 2008 Now we are in a rented facility.
We began this process of Reevaluating our Core values. Our mission? And our vision statement of faith was fine. Core Values Mission and Vision. I remember in those days when I met with the leadership at the time, Remember, our building is sold.
We're launching out. We are meeting at what used to be a Jehovah's Witness. Church. they had sold it and moved out somewhere else and built a fine facility for themselves.
So this was kind of like, we're in a Jehovah's Witness building. Not sure how this is going to work. But anyways, I called in the leadership and I said, look, we need to examine our Core Values, Mission, Vision. But how did I motivate them? I motivated them with some information.
I said, look at it. Where are our young people to day? Where are your children and your grandchildren today? Look at the state of Christianity in America. Look at the state of churches.
in our country, in our world. Churches are shutting down. Almost every day. They may not be shutting down every day, but when you spread them out over the year, And you take the number of churches that have shut down, they're definitely more than 300. Mm-hmm.
If there are 365 churches, I mean, days in a year, there are as many as five, six hundred churches that are shutting down. I don't know how what the number is today, but at the time it was. Various denominations, but they were shouting out.
So I gave them some jarring. Information. To awaken them. Going back to Nehemiah, he was saying something jarring. to motivate the king.
So This was my purpose for talking about all the I gave them those jarring statements. And I would say things like How many people are we? Baptizing. One a year So if I stay here thirty years I'm gonna have 30 people.
So, all that education, all that work, 30 years of laboring. And One a year? I said honestly, that's not even happening.
So, those are some things that motivate people when they hear, not all right, guys, we're gonna do the best we can and serve the Lord Jesus Christ. And as we move forward, we're gonna keep on loving Him and loving one another and sharing the gospel. No, no, you need to say some things that are shocking. that that ignite some kind of passion. To move forward.
Yeah. Amen. So good. Guys, we're going to continue this conversation on tomorrow's episode. Make sure you tune in.
These are great lessons for you as you're seeking to lead or as you're seeking to find your place in whatever organization you find yourself in. Nehemiah really is a masterclass for us and how to handle the tasks that is set before us and step up to the call that God has given us. That's right. We're so grateful that you guys joined us today. Thank you to all of our sponsors.
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