Everybody Wants to Be A Leader

You've been called to do something good in your life. You've been called to be a godly leader. But just be warned, anytime you step up to the plate, there's going to be hardship involved. Let's understand that calling together coming up right now on the Clear Vee Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.

Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to another great episode of the Clearview Today Show here in our studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah.

If you're listening for the very first time, Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome. I'm very excited today.

Amen. It's going to be a good show. Good conversation. Great show. We're launching into brand new content today.

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So, big thank you to you guys. Big thank you to you, Dr. Shudd. This is a great series that I'm really excited to get into from the book of Nehemiah. That's right.

Isn't it crazy how we always keep ending up back here at Nehemiah? Yeah, so we were in James.

So far, we were in James in the New Testament, very practical book in how to make stable decisions. Whether or not your life has been stable. You know, we talked about unstable people make unstable decisions, and James' purpose was to help the believers. From the dispersed people of Israel to begin to live consistent Christ honoring lives. And it's not just for them, it's also for us.

Because we as a culture have become very destabilized and we are making some very random decisions, and not just outside in the world, but also in the church. And so we also need to learn how to live consistent, Christ-honoring, if I may add, scriptural lives. But now it's time to turn to the Old Testament. Bring some balance into our learning, our growing. Because what if you're called to be a leader?

And we're going to learn from the book of Nehemiah how to be a godly leader.

Now, let me go ahead and preface this with. This is not just for pastors. or missionaries or Christian ministry leaders. This is for anybody out there. Who is a believer, but has some Leadership position.

It may not be a position with a title. But you are in a leadership capacity. How can you be a leader? That's the purpose of this series. Yeah, absolutely.

Leadership is so important, and it often undergirds things that we talk about here on the show. And we delve into conversations about leadership regularly. Dr. Shaw, for our listeners out there who are maybe tuned in and watching, how do you know if you're a leader? How do you know if maybe God has gifted you in that way or God has called you to be a leader?

You know, that's a great question. I had a gentleman who is a leader. I'm not saying like he's an exceptional leader or not, but he is a leader because he leads a lot of people. He said that one time to me: he said, You know, I believe that people. Cannot be born, they have to be born leaders.

And I sort of agree with him, but I don't. I think in some ways, yes, there are some things that we can gain from our family upbringing, our personality, the people we were around growing up, that kind of gears us towards being leaders. But I also believe that leadership can be taught. And I learned that from John Maxwell. I've learned a lot from John Maxwell.

He has, I've been following his work for, I would say, Almost 30 years back in the late 90s when he had the Enjoy ministry. I used to listen to his tapes and I used to read some of his books, some early books on understanding people and things like that. And And one thing I learned from him was that leadership can be learned. Yes, there are people who are born leaders, but then. Yeah, you can learn leadership.

There are people who, you know, they desire leadership. They want to step into that role God has called them to. Then there's people who are like, you know, I don't really want that. You know, is that something I can pass on? And what do you think?

I mean, there are reluctant leaders out there, but do you think there are people who have been called to be leaders who are just letting it pass them by? Mm-hmm. Great question. Let me finish answering Ryan's question because his question was: how do you know that you're a leader?

Well, you God, let's just talk about believers. I'm not talking about like Attila the Hehan or some Genghis Khan or something like that. Or some ISIS leader out there who is terrorist, who is destroying people.

So we're not talking about, I'm talking about more believers or people who are turning to the living true triune God for direction and leadership. I think God wants all of us to be leaders. Mm-hmm. Now we may not lead a church, we may not lead A big organization, but we are called to be leaders. We are called to be the salt and the light.

Now, how can you be the light if you're not out front showing people which way to go? That's right, that's true.

So, just by that basic definition, All of us are called to lead. Because if you are in a setting where someone who is not a believer And when I say believer, folks, I'm always talking about believer in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.

So if they're not. A believer leading, then are you going to follow them?

So now you have You have to do something, you have to lead.

Now that other person may threaten you, buck you. Try to put you back in your place, but you still have to graciously, humbly. For wisely. lead in that office situation. Maybe it's your family.

You might be the only person in the family who's a believer, and now you are on a family vacation, and everybody has their own idea of how we're going to have a good time. Yeah, good point. But you have to decide how are we going to have a good time. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer. I don't want to be, you know, just be a wet blanket and make everybody feel like, oh, here we go.

She walked in the room, and all of a sudden, now we have to all act like Christians. Yeah, you're describing a lot of people's summers right now. You know, but you can still have a good time, you can still be the fun person at the same time. You can still be like, say, you know, I'm following Jesus Christ.

So I'm going to pray over my meal. I mean, if you want to, I can pray over everybody's meal. They say, no, no, we're good. You can have your own prayer.

Okay, no problem. But don't try to make a big show out of it. Yeah, right. Just kind of quickly bow your head and say, Thank you, Lord, for this day. Thank you for this meal.

Bless everyone in Jesus' name. And you can just. Pray in your heart, you don't have to like. Try to purposely goad them and say, pray for all these heathens. Lord, I pray that you would make their food taste horrible.

I pray that it would always be slightly undercooked, under temperature, make them sick and food poison until they turn to Lord. Amen. So, guess what? If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, you are a leader. In some capacity, in every setting that you are, that is such a great point.

Yeah, so like there's a lot of people who are like, not me, not me, not me. But at the end of the day, someone is going to lead.

Someone's going to lead.

Someone's going to set the tone for where we're going as a family, as a group, as an organization, as a neighborhood, as a workplace. Yeah. And a lot of times. Go ahead. I was just saying, someone's going to lead.

And if you are a believer, you probably ought to make sure it's you. Yeah, because a lot of times, man, the people who are going to step up and fill that gap are not necessarily the people that you want doing it. Right. You know what I mean?

So now to answer your question, what do you do when you are in a position that you like, well, I'm in the position, but I really don't want to lead. I am like Harrison Ford. He's always the reluctant hero. The reluctant hero is like, how did I get into this position? But I will save the day.

Yeah. And I will be very angry if you try to talk to me. Get back in the plane, Chewy. There you go. What do you do in those situations?

I would say to a person like that, I understand where you're coming from. You know, you are reluctant about that. But really take a hard look in the mirror. Really take a hard look in the mirror. And ask yourself, and you have to answer honestly.

If you're not going to be honest, then this whole thing falls apart. Ask yourself this question: Are you truly a leader or a follower? And what you will find yourself if you're truly honest. You like to be the leader. You do like to.

So when people say, and it's like, I'm relaxed, I don't care to, I don't want to lead, I don't want to lead. I hear them, but then when you observe them in every aspect of life, The party starts and stops with them. Yeah. You don't, you don't, nobody sits there and wants to be a follower. Nobody wants to be that submissive person.

We want to be leaders, even if it's just a leader of my own self. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we, now, where we have trouble with. Is a responsibility.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I get it. That's a great point.

So I feel like a lot of people are there. I like the power. I like the position. Absolutely. I'm going to control the thermostat of this organization, this party, this family vacation.

I'm going to control it. And they do. Yeah. They control the whole setting. They just don't want the responsibility.

And I get it. The responsibility requires: well, who's going to buy the food here? I don't care about that. Y'all do do that.

Well, wait a minute. This person here is trying to destroy the unity of this group. I don't care about that. I'm just going to have a good time. Mm-hmm.

you are still controlling the temperature. of whatever group you're in. You just hate responsibility. That's a great point.

You can't be a reluctant leader unless you're just willing to say, I'm a complete follower. I'm a submissive person. I will go wherever you are. I will not say a word. And even then, if they do say that, guess what?

They will sit so quietly that everybody's going to come and say, Hey, is everything okay? Is everything okay? Is everything okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?

So, what you've done is, in your silent mode, you have already become a leader. You're still controlling the thermostat. Teachers understand this very well. Oh, yeah? Oh, yes.

Teachers understand this very well. In a classroom setting, you will have students who have leadership all over them.

Sometimes they lead in a good way, like I'm going to be a good student. I'm going to sit up front. I'm going to answer all the questions. I'm going to tell people: hey, be quiet, I'm listening, or something like that. Then you have those who will make fun of the teacher, or they will try to pass a note, or they will try to pick on each other.

C what they're saying. What are they doing? They're saying, what you're doing up there? The attention is on you. I don't like that.

I don't like that. I want the attention a little bit on me. Yeah, you're a leader. You can say, I don't want to be leader. I don't want to have those A.

I don't care about that. I don't care if I fail this class. All the time, you're trying to say, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. And then there are students who will sit back. Mm.

And recess. I used to have a fifth-grade class at one time, and this kid would sit by himself. And then. Everybody would come and ask him, it's like, what's wrong? What's wrong?

And then the teachers would ask, and then.

Some of the classmates would be like, Mr. Shaw, so-and-so is not feeling good. And the first few times I was like, Hey, are you okay? You need to go inside? No.

Do you need something to eat, are you hungry, are you sick, are you feeling sick? No. I was like, okay. I don't know.

So are you like, are you okay? Yeah. Yeah, he's just shrugging his shoulders. He's a shrug. And I was like, okay.

All right. But you know, a little bit of sense, I have a little bit of sense. Yeah. So I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to ignore you for right now.

Yeah. Yeah. So I said, hey, guys, leave him alone. He is not feeling good right now. Let's all go this way.

And so I'm walking away. You can see him looking up like. I'm looking up, like, where's everybody going? What are you talking about? You just took away all the attention I was getting by telling people to leave me alone.

Yeah. Don't bother him. Yeah. And I'll stop bothering you. I'm laughing because I know that kid.

Several times over, I've met kids just absolutely. No, not that kid in pain. I got you. But every, I mean, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, I need the attention. I need the attention on me.

And it's not just those grades, it's on up through high school too. It happens in churches. It does happen in churches. If you starve them at the moment, not at the potluck suffer. Come on.

They'll start to wilt and they'll start to get steamed very quickly. Yeah. Jeez. That's why when we have staff meetings, when we have retreats and things like that, I tell people, I say, let's have one conversation. That's true.

Why do I do that? Because I want us to all connect with each other rather than You know, if you're the leader, you're here having a conversation. And I learned that, by the way, from Michael Hyatt. Michael Hyatt was at one time the CEO of Zondervan, I believe. And then he has his own podcast show and things like that, a lot of books he's written.

And he said that's one of his rules. When people come over to the house or church gathering or his staff, when he was at Zondervan, he was that, hey, guys, my only rule is one conversation. Let's not start a separate conversation. That's what people do. Oh, yeah.

Why are they doing that? It's not because the conversation in the center is boring, it's that they're like. I am not the center anymore.

So all that to say this, even if you say I am reluctant hero, take a hard reluctant hero, reluctant leader, take a hard look at the mirror and say, can you truly Can you truly exist on the sideline? As a person. And what you'll find is, if you're truly honest, that you don't. Even your silence is screaming. Come.

Look at me. And so let's not play that game. Let's go, okay, God, you called me to lead. I'm humbled and I'm grateful. It's a sign of ungratefulness to say, I don't care to do all this.

But then we still get all the same urges to lead. Help us make that, help the listeners make that connection between this innate desire that we all have for attention, right? And or validation or acknowledgement or however, and that call to leadership. Because there may be people listening who are like, well, I definitely am with you. I like attention just like everyone else.

But this call to this idea that to go from that to now this call to lead others, even if it's just three or four people. What are you leading them towards? I have to ask myself that question every day. How am I going to lead our staff?

Now I am in leadership capacity in many other places in the community, in the chamber board, public school foundation board. There's a like a soup kitchen type ministry in the community called Acts. I'm on that board.

So I have to ask myself when I'm ready to go to these meetings. or even to our lunches, how am I going to lead? How am I going to lead? Am I going to just go in there And have a great time. I can do that.

But it's not going to help us in the long run. Yes, you can build a little bit of camaraderie, but we can have all the camaraderie in the world and be downhill. Neither do I want to come in there like a wet blanket and just douse out that good excitement. Uh What am I going to lead people towards?

Now, I will be honest with you. I wish I could give myself hundred percent, A plus. I don't. their times I did not do well. Still still dog.

There are times that I go, hmm. That was not the best way to lead. I see the problem. There's a problem there. But man, I did not handle the problem correctly.

I did not lead people in the right direction. I just blew up the problem. That did not lead them. It just took care of the problem. But I should have found a way to go, okay, now let's go here.

Some some things are very complicated, complex, that it's not that easy to just get people out of that situation to a better place. How do you do that? leadership position that I have I try to ask that question. How can I lead So that when this meeting is over, people are in a better place, they see things more clearly. They have the right motivation.

They are now moving in the right direction. They are united. Their hearts are Toward godly things, to glorify Jesus Christ, you know, at least in my organization. How can I do that? But I go into meetings in town.

Yeah Some some meetings I don't say anything because the organization is moving well.

Some meetings I don't say anything because I feel like they're not ready to take those suggestions yet. Or they will be misunderstood. Or something else is just eating them up.

So, for me to throw this in there, they're not ready for it.

So, I sort of stay silent. Then there are meetings I go in and I'm like, okay. I think I can make the suggestion, and if they take it, it can be really good. How much am I going to push for this?

Some some places I'm like I make the suggestion, but then I Let them decide.

Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. It's a it's a group.

Now in the church setting, Because far more is on the line here. I am a little bit more forceful. And, like, this is the way we need to go, or guys, help us. Let's get on board. And let's help each other get to the next level.

I don't have the answers. Let's decide on the answers.

So, here I'm much more forceful than I would be in other meetings. But the goal of every leadership. Moment. is to to move people to a better place than they were when the meeting began. And if that doesn't happen, Then we're wasting time.

Yeah. That's so good. I feel like a lot of times leaders will come up against something and the goal is to solve a problem. Yeah. And like you said, they go in kind of swinging it and just, I'm going to blow past this problem.

It's a roadblock. Let's apply the dynamite and explode it and move on. Mm-hmm. But the goal, like you just said, the goal is not to just, we need to solve the problem because it's a problem, it needs to be addressed. But in doing that, the goal is to...

Elevate people. The goal is to lead people to a better place than they were when the meeting began. And that changes often changes the approach that you take. And I think that makes that make you a very good leader, Dr. Sha, because I do feel that from you.

I feel like the goal is not to find stasis and ride it out. That's the goal I'm tempted to take: let's find something comfortable that works, let's get in our rhythm, and now this is our normal. And let's anytime that we have to display leadership qualities, it's an attempt to get back to normal. But I definitely feel that over the past 13 years that I've worked here, your goal has been to further each individual person into being the leader they're supposed to be. And then, as a result, our church has grown.

And our group grows, our team grows as well. Yeah. And then the church grows. Absolutely. That's definitely what I've tried to do.

Yeah. And again, I don't give myself 100 marks. I don't even know if I would give myself 50. I've tried to do that.

Sometimes you can pick up on things and you go, huh? That's not quite how it should be because there is There's going to be repercussions because of this. But Let me at least push us out of this stalemate. At least let's go forward. I know we're recording and we're on mic and everything, but even if the mics were off, I could tell you, I've worked for you for a long time.

I'd give you a lot more than 50%. Absolutely. I'd give you a lot more than 50%. Yeah, I mean, 98, 99. You're a good general leader.

And I'm not just saying that. You're a great leader. The proof is in this because, and John, I didn't know you when you started, but we started near within two years of each other. We are better leaders today because of you, not because of a textbook that we got, not because of a class we took somewhere. I mean, there were maybe were some things that we picked up along the way, but I mean, it was you displaying leadership and you leading us.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of times that you could have come in and said, this is a problem. This is how you're going to fix it. Go. And you could have done that. And I would have been like, all right, sounds good.

But you didn't do that. You shaped me and us and molded us. And this goes for other people on the team as well, but we're the ones having the conversation. Molded us, shaped us, and taught us how to think differently. Differently.

And I think that's the mark of a good leader. That's one of your greatest qualities: not just, hey, here's a problem, let's fix it. It's, hey, let me help you get to the point where you're fixing the problem. Yeah, and I think it's poetic that we're framing all this in the. In under the lens of Nehemiah, because when I first started here in 2013, Nehemiah was the first series that you ever heard you preach through.

And I remember I was just saying this before we started recording, you know. Genuinely, I had been saved for six years. I got saved in 2007. By 2013, I didn't even know Nehemiah was a book. And I'm not saying that any churches that I've ever been to didn't never, I never heard it preached.

But I guess what I am saying is that it was a new world for me to dive into like deep Bible. Deep biblical preaching. That was new. I think it's cool now, 13 years later in 2026, coming back to Nehemiah. And it's cool because you can see back to how much you've grown over my time here.

Not just you specifically, but me as well. Not even knowing this was a book. What the heck is Nehemiah? What is he like? It's like, I guess he's a prophet or something.

I don't know.

Versus, no, this is the leadership lessons I've been learning all this time through Nehemiah and now revisiting them again for the radio audience. That's fun. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the series because we're not just going to study it like a Bible study, which we'll do. I'll get into the historical context. We'll talk about people like Sanbalat and Tobiah and Geshem and learn about the complex political upheaval between the Samaritans and the Jewish people, and how we're going to get into some depth.

But I don't want it to be so. into the biblical study part that we miss. The leadership lesson. No matter what Your leadership capacity is right now, position is whether you are a pastor or a staff leader or just a secular workplace or in your own family, in your own neighborhood, somewhere you are called to lead. We are all leaders, and I hope this series will help you.

That's right. I hope this series will help you. It's going to be so good. I'm excited to walk through this. Dr.

Trot, as we're kind of landing the plane on today's conversation, thinking about leadership, thinking about stepping up from just this desire for attention to actually doing something with that, what advice would you give to the budding leader who is listening, who is who has maybe recognized, yeah, I do like to be the one setting the tone. I do like to be the one calling the shots, but I want to do something positive with that. I want that to mean something instead of just it being a cry for attention. I would have to have that conversation with students. Say, look, look, they're following you.

They're listening to you. But right now, just look around and see. Nobody's doing their work. That's right. And they're going to have a very difficult time.

So. Yeah. what I'm saying here is we need to Kind of embody the same example, helping people. understand are you leading The people in your circle of influence for good? or for evil.

Amen. Are they going to be better or are they going to be worse? Ask yourself that question. Whatever capacity you are as a leader in a church. Let's say you are that maybe that disgruntled church member, not happy with how the things are going right now.

With your actions, with your behavior. With your body language in the Sunday school class, in the church, in the lobby, what are you leading people to do? Because someone's going to come around following you. That's right. You know, all you got to do is stand there and be sort of, you know, with a frown on your face, like.

Looking around. Yeah. And someone who is looking for some. friend, they will come shuffle over to you. What's wrong?

What's wrong? What's going on?

Well, let me tell you something. I just don't want to say anything. I'd rather not say anything. That's all I'm going to say. What is it?

You know, I've learned a long time ago some things are just left alone. And then that person now is going to call you, try to speak. Ask you questions, want to have lunch with you. You want that because sooner or later you're going to be like, Well, let me tell you something. Do you agree with this?

Yeah, you agree with that?

Now you got that person who otherwise just needed prayer, encouragement.

Now is following you in your You know, small letter D, diabolical plan. That's right. Whatever that is.

Now, what's going to happen to their spiritual life? When you decide to bounce out of that church, are they going to bounce with you? Are they going to, is that going to help their marriage and their children in their workplace? Are they going to be a good representation of Jesus Christ? Have you taken account of how that's going to impact them?

And if Jesus is standing there, can you look at him in the eye and say, Yes, I'm doing a great job leading this moron here. No, you won't even be able to open your mouth because you know what you're doing is wrong. That's right. That's right. I mean, we can go on and on.

All I'm saying is, you can lead people towards Christ or you can lead them away. Amen. Let's figure out which direction we're leading. That's right. Guys, we're so excited about this series.

As we dig further into the book of Nehemiah, make sure you join us on tomorrow's episode, same time, same station. Thank you to all of you who joined in for the Clear View Today Show family. If you're listening for the very first time today, write in and let us know where you're listening from. 252-582-5028. Big thank you to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.

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