The online rhetoric about what's going on in Minnesota is getting completely out of control and it's important to separate real facts from overheated comparisons because what's happening online right now is going to take us somewhere truly dangerous. All this and more coming up right now on the Theory Today Show. Yeah. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show with Dr. Abadan Shah. We've had such a great time being able to bring you all of these great conversations.
We're going to continue to do that today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time today, Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, it's going to be a good conversation. Yes, it is. It's going to be intense, but it's going to be good. Yes, yes. Lots of factors coming in for this conversation today.
I figured we could start by just saying that today is January 27th, which is the anniversary, the day that we're recording this. And that's the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. And that's significant because on this day, In 1945, the American forces went in, liberated this concentration camp, and This has been a day that's supposed to be a day that forces us to slow down. To really take in the gravity of what happened, remember it, and then treat history with the seriousness of. That it deserves.
Because what happened in Europe was not a metaphor, right? It wasn't a policy dispute, it wasn't just like political rhetoric. But that's exactly what it's turned into today in American discourse, and it's extremely harmful. Yeah. Yeah, it's being used by the radical left to claim that what's happening in America or what ICE agents are doing is no different than what happened in Nazi Germany.
And that is just not the case. Right. And smart people, educated people, college. professors are saying things like that, and that's very sad to me. And it's shameful, and it really is a shame really against academics.
Because if you're truly an academic academician, Uh you know, you should you should You should really think about what you're saying. Is it really true? The equivocation that you're making between people doing their job upholding the law versus what happened in Nazi Germany. And maybe we can go a little step further and talk about that, because to me, it actually shames the legacy Of those people who were killed, who were killed in those concentration camps. I believe it's no different than what's happening today when people deny that the Holocaust took place.
It is no different because when you create this narrative, in a sense, you are rewriting the past, you're revising history and saying, So what happened here In Minnesota or in Minneapolis, St. Paul, is no different than what happened back in the 40s. in Nazi Germany. But wait a minute, what happened in the forties in Nazi Germany? One group of people, one ethnic Minority were brutally assassinated or killed.
Right. And you're saying, yeah, that's the same thing happening here, but only it's against people from Hispanic countries. No, wait a minute, wait a minute. The Jewish people were there in Nazi Germany legally. They were there because this was their home.
They were very, you need to study history. They were very much part of the German society. I think no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on, I think everybody can agree that the term Nazi has lost, unfortunately, has lost its moral clarity. It has lost its historical meaning. Because everything that we don't like is of the Nazis.
100%. That's what I was going to say. It just becomes a brand that you put on things that you disagree with. You don't like. Oh, you're a Nazi.
Oh, you're acting like a Nazi. When if you know history, that term means much more than I disagree with you. Right. I mean, Nazi means the National Socialist Party.
Okay. The people who are rioting in the streets and using that slogan. claim to be Marxist socialists.
Some may not say that. But you see the hypocrisy? They are actually socialists calling. People doing their jobs as Nazi, like National Socialists. Wait a minute.
Whoa, whoa, stop. And Secondly, If you're really saying that, you're saying, yeah, they did something wrong to the Jewish people, the Nazis, well, why do you have that scarf around your neck? The scarf that says from what is it? From the river to the sea. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, and that we need to just push the Jews over into the ocean.
Wait. And and you're talking about The Nazi? Right. Oh, come on. Right.
There's several layers of hypocrisy that is happening there that we don't even have time to unpack. But let's talk about what's going on in our country. Yeah, let's talk about it because I think that's the thing that people kind of have been asking us, like, where do you stand on this? And unlike other scholars and other academics, you know, we did not rush to talk about this the very day that it happened. You know, just like you were talking about, how can you, as an academic, do research in like a couple of hours since this shooting happened and then instantly turn on the microphones and start talking about it.
Right. You need to have some time.
Now, without having to do extensive research. Just watching several angles of what took place and understanding the situation that is taking place in Minneapolis. I can tell you this. Um, the police chief of Chicago really put things in perspective, and I think it's worth watching that video if you would like, because I think. He did a great job in explaining what happens when you.
Box. law enforcement officers. When you get them in a corner, When these are people who are trained to fight back, and when they feel the threat that you're about to. Hurt them. Where there's with a car?
Or whether because you're carrying a gun, doesn't matter if it's legally or it's a concealed and carry. But the moment they feel the threat, they are going to do something. That's what they're trained to do. That's right.
Now, if I were to slow down life and make it into slow motion, of course we can stop and say he has a gun, but he's not going to use it. He is struggling to fight against us, but he is not going to fire.
Okay, let's stop. No, this is happening in real time. That's right.
That's right.
This is happening when the man is fighting back. Mm-hmm. And he has a weapon. and I'm sure other things were being said. To fight against criminals, you default to your training.
Absolutely. Again, I'm not saying what is right, what is wrong. I'm just saying this is what happens. And the police chief of Chicago said it very well. Let me make this clear.
Federal agents. Ice HSI Our officers. They are agents of law enforcement. If you box them in. With vehicles.
It is reasonable for them to believe that they are being ambushed. And that this could end. In a deadly situation. And it's reasonable. For them to use force.
based on those conditions. Do not box in. any law enforcement officer. You are breaking the law when you do that. And you are putting yourself in danger.
Following Law enforcement agents around. The question is why? What do you plan on doing? It's also reasonable for them to believe that you're eventually going to do harm to them. If you ram.
Any vehicle, especially that one. That contains Law enforcement agents, and that's any law enforcement. local, state, federal, county. And you do this intentionally. This is considered deadly force.
Deadly force is anything. that can cause great bodily harm or death. When you plow into a vehicle That contains law enforcement agents. You're using deadly force. And they can use deadly force in response to stop you.
We need to be clear about these laws. We cannot become a society where we just decide to take everything in our own hands. and start to commit crimes. against law enforcement. It is a crime.
You may not like what they're doing. I can understand that there's a lot of emotions out there, but that does not mean that you get to commit a crime. Especially one They could lead to deadly force. We need to keep everyone safe. Our responsibilities when it comes to federal agents, and I've been asked these questions.
We do not interfere. With the duties and responsibilities of federal agents.
So Right off the bat, all that sounds like Kind of common sense, right? Like, I know, I know that people online are not going to like hearing that, but. You're allowed, you're perfectly allowed to peacefully protest. You're allowed to speak out. You're allowed to advocate for whatever policies you want.
Like, that's all First Amendment. That's fine. But regardless of what's going on in Minneapolis, regardless of what's going on with ICE specifically, you can't interfere with federal officers, right? Right. Like, that's like, regardless of not getting into their faces.
Fighting back. I mean, I understand, you know, you have your convictions on Every legal should be just given amnesty or whatever. And that's, I disagree with that. You cannot be a country without borders. You got to have some sense of laws.
Yeah, I can't, I'm an immigrant. And I'm saying that, that you need to have some You know, the system through which you come.
Now, you know, people say, well, what about my neighbor? Or what about the guy who works for me and all that? I get it. I totally understand that you may know people who are here. Questionable status, but man, they do not want to hurt anything.
They are more proud to be Americans than Americans are. I get it. So maybe they need to approach through proper. Procedures. What has happened in America, the grievous crime that has been committed is that in the past four years, or maybe.
Previous to this administration, the Trump administration, the four years of Biden administration, the borders were completely thrown open, and every kind of criminal. Was allowed to come in. I'm not saying every single person was a criminal, but criminals were allowed. Absolutely, and they did. And so This administration is doing something that Prior to this administration, we're talking about prior to the first Trump administration, the Obama administration did, the Bush administration did, and the Clinton administration did, which is to say, okay, we have to enforce the law when it comes to our Borders and immigration, and we have to do our job.
We cannot just be a country that says, oh, well, I guess you're here. It is what it is. We're gonna make this work. And I saw some people writing on Facebook: stop writing. You don't need to write.
Stop. Stop. I get it. You want to chime in? Just stop chiming in.
Read the Bible. Go home, read the Bible. Go do that. Really a good devotional book. That may be good.
Don't don't chime in and give some big, big, you know, long diatribe about. You know, how you think things. You cannot have a country that falls apart. Yeah. Yeah.
It doesn't work. Deporting illegal immigrants is not an American thing. That's something that every sovereign nation does. Right. And I think trying to make this an American sin, so to speak, is something that the liberal media.
It's really funny because we were talking earlier about how this is apparently Nazi Germany now, but you have complete freedom of the press where all of the press is in direct opposition to the person who's in charge. That can't happen in Nazi Germany. No. That's the fundamental, like, that's the fundamental difference: you have every right to speak out, to protest, to gather in the streets. You don't have the right to impede law enforcement.
And you didn't before Trump ever was president. You never had that right. But people, this whole idea of like, I'm going to take the law into my own hands. I'm going after law enforcement agents. It's not just a matter of like recording on the phones anymore.
I mean, we've got people driving vehicles at law enforcement. Yeah, blowing whistles. At them. And these law enforcement officers are very capable of. You know, ignoring those whistles and moving along.
But I know it's got to be frustrating, but they know how to handle that. It's like, okay, whatever. But the moment you put your hands on them, the moment you get in their face, Or you try to shove yourself in and they push you back and you keep coming at them and yelling at them and calling them names. You're getting into their personal space. Right.
Right. Okay. I'm not a law enforcement officer, but I don't want you getting into my personal space. I mean, that it. Not not if you're coming to give me a...
Hi-fi, or give me a hug, you know, as a friend. I get it, but not if you're coming aggressively. I think a lot of people, too, with this Alex Predi, that's the gentleman that we kind of sparked this discussion. A lot of people are turning this into an anti-Second Amendment thing where now, like, I've seen a lot of people online falsely claiming that now, all of a sudden, Republicans are against the Second Amendment. And it's like, that has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about.
If I have a, if I'm legally, me as a citizen, if I'm legally licensed to carry a firearm and I begin impeding in federal officers' investigations and arrests, The fact that I'm licensed to carry a firearm does not interfere or does not impact the legality of what I'm doing. I'm still putting myself at risk by breaking the law and impeding an officer's job. Right. Whether or not he had the ability or legally was able to carry and conceal a firearm doesn't change the fact that what he did was against the law. Right.
Absolutely. Yeah. It's definitely a. Did you guys see? I don't even know if this, if this isn't relevant, we can cut this part out.
But did you guys see where they. Uh the the media Photoshopped his picture. Yes, they completely changed his picture. Like, look, look at that. No.
That's that's some solid Photoshop work, yeah. Like you use Photoshop all the time, yeah, and yeah, nearly every day, yeah, and that's I mean, that's a solid photo. The ratio of his face, the proportions of where his eyes are set to where his nose is, to how far away they are from his mouth, completely different. His smile is totally different, his ears are a different shape.
Now, I wonder why the mainstream media would do something like this. Why would you make him look more attractive? Could it be we're trying to facilitate some outrage on this? I don't know. I'm sure, yeah, yeah, I'm sure this is how it's done.
This is manipulating the people, and that's not sorry, yeah, that's not just like coloring his skin up a little bit to look better for TV. Like, no, you reproportioned his face, you've changed his facial features, his eyes are different color, yeah. Look at that, his eyes are hazel on the right-hand side. I mean, because it is easier, and I'm not saying, look, this may be a non-sequitur, but I am saying it's much easier and more. Efficient to generate some outrage if the person is better looking than anyway.
Absolutely. Maybe that's not. It goes back to even the rhetoric that's being used, the language that's being used. It's not a killing by law enforcement, it's a murder. Right.
I mean, and already that term, like, oh my goodness, murder, that hurts our hearts when we hear it. We're so compassionate to people who have been murdered because they're a victim and their families are a victim. And we don't take into account the entire story that's happening and what is being kept, the details that are being kept from us and what is being pushed forward media. Yeah, because you see what happens in all these videos that are happening online and you're saying, okay, so we all agree, right? All of the logical moral people agree that this was a murder.
So let's talk about this murder. And now you are on the defensive to have to explain why you think this murder was justified. And it's like, well, hold on one second. Nobody ever agreed this was a murder. If I go, if I go and well, anyway, that.
Point has been made. Dr. Tao, what would you say to people who are going to hear this, and they will, and say stuff like, Okay, so you will so you're what you're saying is that because this man broke the law and imp impeded a federal investigation or arrest, so he deserved to die? What would you say to someone who brings that point up? Definitely.
I'm not going to say that somebody deserves to die. Of course not. He was an American citizen.
So my heart goes out to the family, you know, because now they have to bury their son or their brother or whoever, you know, what all he had in his family.
So it's tragic. It's horrible. But I want us to realize, don't jump to conclusions. There you go. Don't jump to conclusions.
Both sides. We cannot jump to conclusion.
Now, I just based my. decision of what happened based on Typical law enforcement You know, response to somebody getting into their space and pushing and shoving them, or they're telling people, get out of our way, get out of our way. Because if you watch that video, no matter which angle you watch, from there were several videos that were uploaded. Very near to that, so you know that something happened and same angle, uh, different angle, same situation. You saw this one woman trying to immediately get.
To when the car pulled up or the vehicle pulled up of the ice. officers. Immediately she s came in there and started blowing her whistle. And of course The ICE officer comes out. And he pushes her.
And then the next thing you see is gets to the corner. There is this man. He's right behind this woman. He's got his camera. Alex Pretty has his camera on.
He's taking videos and all that stuff. And then the officer tells him to back off. He doesn't. He bows up on him. And then the officer sprays the woman.
And then this guy, Alex Predty, begins to fire back at him and blah, blah, blah.
So the officer sprays him as well and falls. And then another woman comes in. You see this happening. Again, but I'm not an expert enough to go, okay. Can we have an investigation on this?
Because that Will tell us exactly what happened, not just different angles of the camera. Based on my observation, yeah, that's bad. But I'm willing to wait and say Let proper investigation happen. It also is happening, by the way. I've seen a lot of people saying that because federal, like ICE has federal immunity, that nothing is being investigated.
That's not true. The Trump administration has already administered an investigation. Yeah, I mean, even the head of ICE for Minneapolis of Minnesota has resigned or has been reassigned, I guess. And Tom Holman is coming in there.
So, you know, something is happening. Yeah. Whether it was that officer that, you know, his fault or not, but there are changes happening.
So I would say, number one, we need to be patient. Yeah. and let investigation happen. Secondly, We are a nation of law and order. You gotta have that.
You cannot. Continue this way. I don't care who you are. You have to ask the question, why are you there? When somebody is doing their job, Enforcing law.
that we as a society have established Let them do their job.
Now, you can fight it in the court, do whatever you want to do, but. You cannot just jump in there and take actions into your hands. That's right.
Romans chapter 13 tells us that every soul, I'm talking to Christians right now. I don't care you are what color you are or what theological spectrum you come from. Obey the Bible. Romans 13, Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise for the same, for He is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for He does not bear the sword in vain for He is God's minister, an avenger, to execute wrath on Him who practises evil. Therefore you must be subject Not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake, for because of this, you also pay taxes.
for they are God's ministers attending continually through this very thing.
So Obey the law. That's right.
You know, obey the law. Let's compare that to. The pandemic. You know? Did we obey the law?
Yeah, we did. Actually, how interesting. We actually did. But we also said, If you're going to Allow bars to be open. Then there is no reason that churches should be closed.
That's right.
All of our resistance was vocal. All of our resistance was ideological. We talked about this and we didn't back down as far as what we believe in our convictions and where we stood on things. And that's fine. That's peaceful protest for what we deemed unacceptable.
We didn't storm the steps of the World Health Organization with signs and whistles and pushing scientists and officials and doctors and stuff like that. No, we used logic and we used reasoning and we said, hey, if you're going to allow these people to operate, we should be allowed to operate as well. Right. Right. But still, I mean, when they said.
You cannot have services inside. We're like, okay, fine. Yeah, we'll have them. We'll do it in the parking lot. And we had parking lot services for several weeks.
Am I right? That's right.
Several weeks. Yeah, until they told us that, hey, all right, you can go back in on certain numbers. We're like, no problem. We're going to do it inside.
Now we're going to have tons of services.
So nobody will feel. That we're breaking the law. That's right.
And then they said, okay, you can do any way you want to. It was like, okay, here you go.
So We had more problems with Christians. True. Nothing to do with the ordinance, nothing to do with the laws, but they were enforcing their own fears and insecurities and envies and jealousies and bad behavior on churches. I mean, that's a whole different. Devilish world, right?
Hellish behavior. But with the government, it was like, okay. Yeah. You're doing what we told you to do. That's right.
Yeah. So Cannot compare those two things. That's right.
So what's happening in Minneapolis? You cannot have a society that disregards law and order. We will go into anarchy. We will go into chaos. You cannot do that.
And you cannot equivocate and say everything You know, it's the same. No, it's not. Yeah, because if you really wanted to do that, you would have to agree that the Jewish victims and then the German sympathi or the local sympathizers were actively going out there and impeding. Legal procedures or whatever. And that's not what's happening.
Or that's not what happened. What's happening now is that protesters are indeed breaking the law. And of course, when you go out there and you break the law, situations are going to get out of control. The Jewish people who were in Nazi Germany. We're not criminals.
That's right.
They were there legally. They were. productive citizens of their society. And yes, they were killed. That's why a Dietrich Bonhoeffer stood up and fought against the the regime and lost his life in the process.
Do not compare that. to Alex Freddy. Do not compare that to Renee. Good. Yeah.
I think that's important for us to remember: is that we are talking about people who are here illegally, who are breaking the law. And we're talking about people who are impeding federal officers, who are impeding law enforcement agents as they are trying to do the job that they have been given, the task that they have been assigned to carry out. That's against the law. That's a crime. And so there are repercussions.
Is it unfortunate that there are some people who are so nice and so sweet and they are here illegally? Absolutely. Of course, it's unfortunate. But the fact remains, the law is being broken. That's right.
And it's the duty of the law enforcement agent to uphold the law. And we can't be shocked as a nation that, when citizens then break the law in order to help other people break the law, that chaos erupts in the streets. You know, if you really want to be outraged, you should be outrageous of the Biden administration that allowed so many illegals who were criminals to come into the country. And now the people who may have been here with questionable statuses are. you know, taken away.
Because of the crackdown. W this would not have been quite this This drastic if the last administration had upheld our immigration, our border. Let's go back to our foundations. We we are a society that is built on Judeo Christian values, which means we think We reason. We don't just start throwing hands.
We don't just fight law enforcement just because we. You know, in the moment we feel like we're we are fighting for a righteous cause. No, we are a country of law and order.
So reason. Um subjection to law and order, those are the things that make us who we are. We cannot ignore that movement. Also remember that these Men and women of ice. Um Immigration and custom enforcement, these people are doing their job.
This is what they have been assigned to do. This is not an organization that President Trump started. This organization began right after September 11th. I mean, it was there even before that, but they were combined. Into one under Homeland Security, into this one entity, ICE.
so that they could go and enforce immigration laws to protect us. to protect us from criminals from the outside. Let them do their job.
Okay, don't don't act this way. You know, the last time things like this happened, like what's happening in Minneapolis or St. Paul. was back in 1971 when when the whole thing began with the draft. And in some of these sanctuary cities, people were going by because so you can dodge the draft.
Horrible and I think similar things are happening now and and we have learned so much. We know better. That's right.
We know better. Yeah, guys, make sure you join us next time. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And if today was your first time listening to us, hey, we love you. We're glad that you're here, and we hope you join us for the conversation again tomorrow. Don't forget that you can support us financially at Abadanshah.com and you can pick up any one of these episodes anywhere podcasting content is found. That's right.
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Can't wait to see you and hear all about your ministry and how God's working in your life. Also, big, big apologetics conference is happening March 28th right here at Clearweek Church. Tickets are on sale now. Link is in the description. And you can use promo code today, T-O-D-A-Y, to get 20% off at checkout.
And last thing, we do have a brand new show out on iTunes right now. It's called How to Read Biblical Hebrew with Dr. Abadan Shah. Episodes one and two are out right now, new episodes being added every week. But we're basically just going to walk you through the basics.
Of learning how to read Biblical Hebrew.
So make sure you go and follow that show right now. That's right.
We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Cleaver today.
