The doctrine of hell introduces one critical element of evangelism that Western Christianity is sorely lacking. Urgency. All this and more coming up right now. Yeah. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to another great week of conversations and dialogue here on the Clearview Today Show. We're so glad you're joining us after the weekend.
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That's exactly right. Dr. Shah, we've been talking about the concept of hell, this biblical topic that a lot of people don't really want to talk about. Very few people want to think about it, want to meditate on it, but it's a reality that really shapes our Christian life. And one of the things that we said on the Friday show, one of the things you said that I thought was really great is what you think about hell really does influence how you think about God and how you think about lost people and evangelism.
That's right. And so it got it kind of got us to thinking that a lot of urgency and immediacy. Is being taken out of the pulpit today, where there's really not a whole lot of pressure. I mean, not every single church, but there's not a whole lot of pressure to go out there and win the lost so that people can avoid going to hell. Yeah, you have this idea of people being saved in the sense is that they're saved from hell, from eternal punishment.
But, you know, if hell is kind of. Muzzled, if hell is sort of like, you know, kind of tamped down, there's not that push, that drive. Hey, I need to make sure that you know what's at stake. I need to make sure you know the dire consequences of your disobedience. Right.
Throughout history, there have been people who espoused this idea of annihilationism. And what Kirk Cameron is talking about here, you know, it's been coming. for some time, but The present milieu is just right for that kind of thinking, that gets rid of this. Unfair, unjust. Doctrine of eternal punishment for just the little crime of like not believing in God or not receiving Jesus or just not having the opportunity to make the same decision to be saved.
And now you're going to be punished forever and ever. Come on, that's not fair. That just does not sound like God to me. Right. And And so it has become popular.
So Kirk Cameron simply revealed, I would say, the hokey theology of a lot of people. Yeah, he even says that in one of the videos that we watched in a previous episode, he talks about his understanding of the character God, my understanding of what God is. This is just my understanding right now. And I was thinking, like, in here. Go ahead.
I was going to say, isn't there a proverb that says specifically, don't lean on your own understanding? Could it be that your understanding is not correct or at least incomplete of what God is? And you know what, man, I don't even fault you for having false understandings of God. I think there's tons of Christian out there, myself included, who are still learning the intricacies of God's nature. But the last thing I ever want to do is get on a podcast, get on a microphone, especially an actor like you, man, with a following and people that you influence all the time and get out there and say something that I'm not really sure about.
Like, there's one point for like. You know, hey, this is something I'm struggling through. I'm trying to think through this. I'd love some guidance on this. It's another thing entirely to be a public figure like you are, and/or like he is, and to say, Yeah, this is where I'm at right now.
I've been persuaded that this is the truth. Because there are tons of people, and Dr. Chai, you can maybe talk about this as a public figure. There are tons of people who will start believing what you say to believe because you are a public figure. Absolutely.
So that's where the Lagos, ethos, pathos comes in. Lagos are your words. Ethos is your credibility, pathos, passion, or your emotions behind it.
So ethos, credibility. If they think, man, you know, I've trusted you before, Uh, you know, regarding this doctrine or that theology, then I can trust you here too. And of course, not. Yeah, and it's it's it's it's sort of a backwards culture we live in. I don't know if it's like this in the East, but definitely in the West, it's like you've got academics, you've got pastors, you've got people who devote their lives to understanding this theology, but then you have actors and you have celebrities, and for some reason, we really, really value what they think about the world.
Yeah, and again, I want to emphasize, you know, I really admire Kirk Cameron because over the years he has taken the right view on so many things, but here it's definitely the wrong view, and just because Some theologians in the past, if you want to talk about contemporary theologians, it would be names like John Wenham, F.F. Bruce, who I admire as a scholar, but in this particular theology, I think F.F. Bruce was very wrong. John Stott, a name that we mentioned previously. People like Clark Pinnock, but Clark Pinnock really was not.
In our camp in evangelical theology. I mean, he was for openness theology and things like that.
So, annihilationism, yeah, that not it's not that far from openness theology. Right. So. It's just a weak God. And then, you know, some people have claimed, like Irenaeus or Justin Martyr, and others have held to these kind of views in the early church.
And then throughout the history, there have been. people here and there that uh held to annihilationism and Some maybe, some were not quite sure.
Some sound like it, but then you read other passages and you go, I don't know. I don't think they were annihilationists. But based on All of this, I think, um People like Kirk Cameron have felt like, oh, yeah, this falls in line of overall. Evangelical spectrum.
So I can choose this view. I can go with this. And It's harmless. Yeah. I don't think it's harmless.
That's a great point. Yeah. That's what we, that's what we that's basically what we talked about on the last show: the implications of that. But then we also started talking about what Jesus Himself said. You know, we looked at all those different passages.
And unfortunately, we ran out of time. But one of the things that we talked about was it wasn't just Jesus, like the apostles, the early church, they took this view as well. Right? They warned about it. Yeah, Jesus uses language like talking about Gehenna.
We talked about that on Friday's episode. How it's not just burning. It's not just this place of torment. It's this place of just. Disgust and shame and depravity, and is it's it's horrible.
We don't even want to look at it, we don't even want to be near it. Um, but some some some place down here on earth. A real tangible place.
Now, today, Gehenna is not burning forever, but that's not what they were saying. They were seeing this place that had been turned into a waste yard, a wasteland, a place of disgrace a place of trash, a place of burning criminals, a place that was not some place you would go and have a picnic, a place just of haze, smoke. This is not a terrible cade painting. No. No, this is terrible place.
That was The the the the imagery they used to describe what hell would be like one day. That should tell us something. that this was not An imaginary place. I know some people even claim that this is just separation from God. Gehenna was not just a separation from Jerusalem, it was a place of just torment and and suffering and and And uh punishment, not just suffering in the sense of Poor me, suffering in the sense of An evil person suffering for what they've done.
I think that's a great point. And I wonder now if that has contributed to it. Because I have always heard that: that the worst part of hell is that you're separated from God. And I think there's maybe some truth to that, but it seems like over time that became all it is. It's like you're just separated.
Yeah, because people cannot come to grips with. How can fire be somewhere where there is eternal darkness?
Well, I mean, j d don't think that our world You know, it's the science of our world or the natural laws of our world are all there is on the other side in the new heavens and new earth. There are laws that are operating. Which may mirror and be similar to our laws, but they d they go far beyond that. Oh, sure. Like, yeah, if I have no problem at all.
If you have no problem at all believing in a glorious heavenly city among the clouds that will come down and inhabit this new earth that will be created, a flame that doesn't produce light is not. A sticking point for me, right? Yeah, that's a very if that's if that's the linchpin of your argument, that's a very minor thing, yeah. Because you were talking about the supernatural world, God is the one who orchestrated and authored natural law, but that also means that he's outside of natural law. That's right, that means that there are other things that we aren't aware of-the forces in the world that you know operate outside of the laws of physics and the laws of nature.
I mean, think about Jesus, he not only ate with his disciples. By the seaside, you know, after he came back from the grave, and he came and he, in a sense, lovingly confronted Peter for having gone back to his old life and told him to take care of my sheep, take care of my lambs. But this, this in his glorified body, he could walk through. Walls Eat at the same time. And it's not like Jesus ate and all the fish just kind of fell on the ground.
But I mean, he ate. He ate the bread. And even prior to that, when he came into that room and he ate bread with them to show them that this is a real body, this is not a spirit. And yet he. Vanish before their eyes.
So in a transformed body, he could do those things.
So natural laws are there, but This is supernatural laws. Right, exactly.
So, also. in heaven and in hell. There will be natural laws. There is a fire.
Well, we know what a fire is. But this fire burns, but there is no light. Because light would. Would um expose sin or light will Light your way. But in hell, there is no lighting your way.
You're not going to recognize people. You're not going to go shake hands with old friends. You're not going to walk up and introduce yourself to Satan. None of that is happening. It's every person for himself or herself.
It's a place of utter darkness. And yet, it's a place of burning. It's a place that you die a million deaths every moment, and yet it's a place where the worm never dies. You say, Well, I have a trouble with that.
Well, then you have a trouble with the Bible. That's right. That's a whole different issue. Right. Yeah, we've got to come to a point.
And it's also funny because people will say it's just so separated from God's love, but God did not create that place for you. Right. God, absolutely, this place. He was created for Satan and his angels. This is a place of torment for Satan and his angels.
That's why it's on that level. When you reject God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ, you choose to go to that place. That's right. That's a very different issue.
Well, how about all those people who never had a chance? Again, now we're going to have to back up and do another show for you. Yeah, yeah. The whole point is this: need to go watch some of our shows where we talk about what about those who never heard, the destiny of the unevangelized. A lot of those people have already rejected Christ.
Right. For generations, they have rejected Christ. I grew up around. those people who generationally reject Christ.
So Don't have more grace and mercy than God Himself. That's right. 100%. People like to play the bleeding heart. They like to play the merciful one.
But I think you said it best, Dr. Sean. Don't have more grace and mercy than God Himself does. And don't you think that God Himself isn't going to be like, Well, shucks, I didn't consider the people who were on an island in the middle of the ocean.
Well, what do I do about them? No, obviously, God knows about them. Obviously, that's factored into God's sovereign plan. Obviously, he knows about the people who are there and/or in tribes who don't have any missionaries to them. But, like you said, generationally have been rejecting the truth.
Yeah, they're closed off, which means. God's grace is coming around them, but the hearts are so stonewalled against God that there is no place for. anyone to come.
Now sometimes the missionaries still go Praise God, they do.
Sometimes, in God's sovereign plan, He knows this is the time that's that one person in that tribe who will open their hearts. Or, just like my dad, that's that one person in that Muslim home. And my dad's cousin. You know, my dad's cousin was the first one in my dad's family, not my dad, who came to know Christ. And then my dad comes to know Christ.
So, God knows which family where.
Well Be willing to hear.
Something you made me think about, and maybe Dr. Show, you can tell me what you think about this, but when you were talking about, it seems when you said something about like this bleeding hearts, like we just can't reconcile this idea of God sending people to hell because it's not loving. And I'm loving, so I know that God can't think that way. But it made me think about Moses, like this, this man who's like, you know, just take me. And save me, I mean, or take me out and save them.
And we look at that like, oh, that's the ultimate sacrifice. That's, yeah, that's the kind of person I want to be. But God didn't let that slide. You know what I mean? God corrected Moses for that.
And I think it's funny that we're kind of falling into that same trap, but with zero stakes. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think that Moses was necessarily lying or just playing a part, but. There was real stakes there. With us, it's zero stakes.
I can say that.
Well, I just don't think God would do that and send people to hell. And it doesn't affect me at all. Right. You know what I mean? Absolutely.
Yeah. Well, what I want to do in the next five, ten minutes that we have on this show. Is Look at passages In the rest of the New Testament.
Now, we don't do that, but there are scholars who divide the New Testament canon into early books. And then accepted books and then disputed works books. In the New Testament canon.
So, Gospels and certain Paul's letters are considered to be like, okay, that's rock-solid, like early works. And then come the later works where this theology is either. uh exalted or it is diluted.
Now, I don't think it's a good way to do theology, but people have been doing it.
So. We don't want to ignore The epistles. Like Paul's or Peter's or John's or Revelation. We don't want to ignore that because they also have a lot to say about hell. Because sometimes people will say, Old Testament, oh, that's primitive.
Gospels, that's still on the border of primitive.
So, all this hell and Gehenna and all that stuff, yeah, it's there, but you know. Once you get into Paul's letters, that's when you find out the real, real established Christian theology.
Now, this is what you have to go by. Don't go by all that stuff. Christian scholars do this? Oh, yeah. Wow.
Yeah. Huh.
So they they will almost tear. Um kind of like bottom up. the the books of the Bible to then Pick and choose what they want to believe.
So they will put Old Testament on the bottom as primitive and unfinished. New Testament, but the Gospels, maybe early Paul's letters. Are sort of like, yeah, this is a good sweet spot. But then later on, it gets all corrupted, or they will. They will say Yes, Old Testament is down here.
Paul, Matthew, and Luke, and Mark, and John, and all of them, they're up here. And then you have all these other letters of Paul, and even there we need to divide between disputed and non-disputed books. And so And they'll live their Christian life like this? Yeah. Yeah.
Just tear the Bible apart. Take what I like. Yeah, based on when. those letters were written or those writings were written. By whoever wrote them.
Well, it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like just. An arbitrary, like the ones that are closer to me in chronology, in time. Are the more Valuable, they're more applicable. Maybe, maybe, but see, it gets real convoluted because. They will put Second Thessalonians as closer to us.
These are disputed letters.
So, are they better or are they worse? It depends on what that New Testament scholar wants or that theologian wants. If they don't like what the Later works, so the disputed works are doing, then they will dismiss them as disputed and later.
So if they like them, then they will go by more refined and now sophisticated and better.
So this feels very much like the Bible is serving me versus like this is the word. Absolutely. But they will phrase it. And then there are those over here who will say, hey, guys, this helps us understand that this Christian thing is just a. You know, it's just been Put together by people.
It's not the word of God.
So you have. people who would say these are at all times Prescriptive for us. Like these, these are what we need to live. All 27 books of the New Testament. are the word of God as we know it.
Then the next group would say the ones that are d disputed letters are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Like they tell us what's going on. We can abide by them. Yeah. But They're more showing us what's happening in theology.
Yeah, and they will sort of. use that to either Talk about how theology has Has shifted or has become sophisticated. It's like one depends on who is the one who is using it for whatever purpose. Is this where we get arguments of things like Men and women roles and things. Pastoral epistles.
Okay. If you notice, 1, 2, Timothy, Titus are coming in the disputed letters of Paul.
Okay. So there's an agenda there. Yeah, that makes sense.
So, guess what? While others will some will claim that The earlier, which is the non-disputed letters, are Paul's, that's what we go by. You know, um b they have their own agenda. No, the the pastoral epistles Our our Are better oh but they you know they have their own agenda there, yeah. Because this telling us how people are becoming prejudiced against women in the church.
Paul was not like that, but. Started to sneak in the church and this helps us to see the higher Christology that's happening is more in the disputed letters. And that came later because earlier when you read the non-disputed letters or the gospels, you don't see the high Christology. But then later on, you see the high Christology. Good grief.
This was a wrong. What if this whole thing is wrong? What if all those writers like. The gospel writers, Paul, Peter, John, were to stand here and say, Hey, guys, that's none of that is true. We wrote those things.
Now, what happens to all your books? Yeah, all in book sales, all these things. There are so many complicated systems and classifications that were introduced. Like, hey, what if this is just genuinely the word of God? Like, what if these scripture writers knew that they were writing God's word and then they wrote it?
Yeah, how much worse is your life if you just obey the Bible? If you just say that everything that's in the Bible is true and I should obey it, how much worse can your life possibly get?
Well, then a lot of people's. Views and books and thesis and doctoral works will just Crumble. Speaking of going up in flames, do you remember where you were going with?
Okay, because I got totally sick. 2 Thessalonians. Let's do it. 2 Thessalonians, you know, this would be what? Disputed.
Disputed, right? Disputed. This would be non-Pauline. This would be much later, right?
So we should listen to this about. Anything, right? But guess what? Please, nobody make a clip of this out of context. 2 Thessalonians 1:7.
When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God. Oh, wait. That sounds primitive to me. Yeah, that sounds like flaming fire. There is vengeance.
That sounds like Old Testament to me. And on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, these shall be punished with everlasting destruction. Destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power when He comes in that day to be glorified. In his saints, and to be admired among all who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
So, how can. How can God punish someone forever? That question is false. We fail to understand the holiness of God. One sin is too much.
That's right. That's right. So eternal destruction is not. It like you're destructed forever, I would say it's more being destructed forever. You are being destroyed.
Destroyed. Yeah. And last I checked, forever. It means forever. It means forever.
Yeah. And I do understand what people are saying. Like, they're like, oh, if it's destroyed, then you're not conscious. You're gone. But it's the process of being destroyed.
It's eternal death, it's eternal dying. Right. Then you have 2 Peter, which is not Paul's letter, of course, as you can see, 2 Peter. Here you have, it's known as one of the Catholic epistles. 2 Peter 2, verse 4: For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus.
The word is Tartarus, not Gehenna. Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved for judgment. Then the Lord, verse 9, knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.
So Peter's saying if he would do that to his own angels, don't think that you're exempt from this. You're exempt from this. Jude chapter Jude, verse 7. As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Oh, my goodness.
You know, Jude, one of the Catholic epistles. Catholic means general epistles, not like Roman Catholic. It's written to a general audience. Um. Eternal fire is there.
Raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame, wandering stars, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Forever. Forever and ever. Forever and ever. Yeah.
Ever.
So. And then we have the book of Revelation, Revelation 14, 9. Then an ange and then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any one worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God. Which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast in his image.
And who receives Whoever receives the mark of his name. And then Revelation 20, verse 10. The devil who deceived them. was cast into the lake of fire. and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are.
and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So Lake of Fire is now mentioned. You say, well, okay, why not Gehenna anymore? Keep in mind 7080 Jerusalem is destroyed. You know, a lot has changed. The church has spread out.
Revelation, the book of Revelation, the apocalypse, is written, I would say, towards the end part of the first century.
So the imagery, I mean, what's the use of If I were to get up and preach about which is doesn't sort of work. But If I were to talk about the the sewer, the canal where I grew up. It would help people if I spent a lot of time describing it, but it's not going to be a ready reference. If I just say, you know, just like the sewer canals in India, yeah, what would you say? It's like sewer canals in India.
Yeah, I guess it's kind of bad. I guess it's bad. Yeah, because he's referencing a place that hasn't existed for 20 years. Right. Yeah, it wouldn't evoke the same response.
But if I were to say like the landfill or something like that, then we can say at least you have some reference point. Yeah. So that's why I think the imagery now is a lake of fire instead of Gehenna. But. Just like Sheol in the Old Testament.
Gehenna Coming into From Old into the New Testament, the Gospels is the lake of fire. Same thing. Just different imageries based on different people. I know we're very, very short on time, but Dr. Shah, if someone's listening to this and they're saying, okay, you've convinced me.
I believe that this is eternal conscious torment, and I don't want any part of that. What do I do? What can I do? Man, come to Jesus Christ. Give your life to him and be saved.
He's waiting. The work has been done. Jesus gave his life on the cross so that you could be saved. And it's simply by grace through faith. It's not a works.
You cannot earn your salvation. Just like my dad, he was a Muslim. In Islam, you have to cross over this bridge, which is sharper than a sword, finer than a human hair, and you walk across, and it's in God's hand. It's in Allah's hand by His grace. And so, so you can do all good works in this life.
But if on that day Allah doesn't wish for you or will for you to go to heaven, then you will fall. You'll fall and what where you where do you fall? You fall into hell. And you know, a normal person cannot walk on a On a bridge that is sharper than a sword and finer than a human hair.
So it means you're gonna fall.
So you need Allah's grace in that day. If he feels like he should be, then you will be. No, in Christianity. when you are a child of God through Jesus Christ. You have The security, the assurance that you will rise on the day of resurrection.
That's right. And judgment is not for you. What is for you? The new heavens in your earth. Amen.
Right? Amen. Amen. That's right. So good.
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