Hell is one of the most uncomfortable topics in the entire Bible and one of the most avoided. People joke about it, people deny it outright, and many churches just never mention it at all. But did you know Jesus spoke about hell more than anybody else? Let's figure out what Jesus had to say about hell coming up today on the 3B Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Thank you for joining us once again here in the Clearview Today studio. It's going to be a great day, great conversation here with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, the New Testament expertise is going to really come in handy today because we got a lot of digging into the Bible we got to do. New and Old Testament, because I'm a little. disappointed today.
I don't know how to say that. Little hurt. Because I really admire this person. Yeah, yeah. And I have really talked highly of this person until now.
Yeah. I feel like He has entered Into a territory and talking about a subject that I don't think he was ready to talk about. I think you're exactly right. And maybe he is latching on to some theologian or some person he admires, and he's just going with it. He's just going with it.
This is an example of maybe swimming in the deep end before you're ready or biting off more than you. You didn't bring your floaties. Then you end up. Making a mistake. Yeah.
And I also now am concerned whether this person, what else will they do? Right, right. What other odd topic, what other jarring issue will they jump to? Just to um Resuscitate their career. Yeah, so I think a lot of people, because the month of December online, as far as like Christian talk shows, have been crazy and everybody's been blowing up about this.
We're going to talk about it in just a second, but Ryan. You have something to tell our listeners to. I do. First of all, Happy New Year. Happy New Year.
It's 2026. Maybe it's 2026. 2026. 2026. Happy New Year.
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Dr. Shah, I don't even think I've told Dr. Shah this, but Dr. Shah has a book signing that you're going to be doing for an hour. I just got the email this morning.
Better write a book. There it is. There's that.
So, Dr. Shah will be there doing a book signing. We'll be there as part of Pray.com Truth Network. It's going to be a great time. That's awesome.
Ryan, verse of the day. Let's hear it. Absolutely. Verse of the day. First verse of the day of the new year, Matthew 25, verse 45.
Then you will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. Everlasting punishment.
Now, I don't know about you, but Jesus, I wish you just worded that a little more clearly. I just don't know what to think about this. Of course, the internet's been a buzz with it all through December. Kirk Cameron, right? He got on a podcast with his son.
Said some some very silly things. He he made some comments about hell. In fact, there's a video. We don't even have to it's all over the internet. Everybody's kind of reacting to it.
We can show exactly what it is that he said about hell that has people so flustered. Um Yeah, what's your opinion on this?
So, my position as it stands today, and again, I'm the beauty of this is that we're always learning and growing, right?
So, I'm open to new light. If you guys have a position that you can share with me, I will gladly change my mind. I used to hold the position of conscious eternal torment because that's just what I was taught by people that I love and trust. I've learned that there are other positions, and a very robust argument can be made for conditionalism or annihilationism, as Edward Fudge posits here. And it It fits.
the character of God. In my understanding More than the conscious eternal torment position, because it brings in the mercy of God together with the justice of God. It doesn't leave judgment out. It is just, but it also fits with the Old Testament picture of the fate of the wicked, which is to be destroyed, it is to die, and it is to perish, not live forever in an eternal barbecue. And the classic verses that used to get me into eternal torment, you know, the punishment, everlasting punishment, everlasting destruction, fits beautifully with a destruction, punishment, judgment.
That is irreversible and lasts forever. That is the eternalness of that punishment and that destruction.
So that's where I am today.
So, first and foremost, I grew up reading the Bible, being taught about hell. But if you guys, the internet, have something different, just tell me and I'll gladly change my mind. Literally, just tell me what to do. That's the first thing. That's the first thing.
I know we're kind of being cynical a little bit and sarcastic, but that's the first thing that really threw me is like, if you guys tell me what to believe, I'll just do it.
Well, he was also cynical and sarcastic because he refers to hell as an eternal barbecue. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, we don't need to start throwing jokes and jabs at people. That's true.
Dr. Shah, joking aside, what are we to make of this? Because this is a figure that people respect and listen to. But just to let you guys know, those who are listening, watching us, it'll be a couple of shows. Yeah, yeah.
We're going to spend some time dealing with this topic because. Time and again throughout history, there have been people who have brought up this very doctrine of annihilationism, where the evil or the wicked people or those who reject God or those who reject Christ are annihilated. They are destroyed forever.
So eternal punishment or ultimate destruction is taken as Just completely gone. You cease to exist. They're wiped out for each other. Wiped out is eternal destruction. And In their minds, it's somehow satisfies the idea, how can I be enjoying heaven for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever while somebody I love is down here in hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever?
How can I do those things?
So Let's just get rid of them out of sight, out of mind.
Now, they will find many biblical references, theological arguments, philosophical conundrums to make that case. I get it. But ultimately, it is really to Help me. Deal with How can I be enjoying while someone is Being punished, not just for a day or two, a year or two. 100 years, 200 years.
Are you talking about billions and trillions of years? That's come on. Yeah. To their mind, it's like, I cannot see that continuing. There's like a supposed moral quandary that contradicts the nature of God that they've got to reconcile.
And so, a little bit of punishment is okay, and then you're just gone. And so, therefore, God is also merciful. Yeah, and they bring up the idea of the justice of God. How can that be justice? If somebody rejects because of maybe.
You know, they grew up wrong, or they had bad things happen to them, or some deep, dark jungle of India, Africa, they never heard a missionary, never saw the Bible, never heard the name of Jesus. And now they're going to burn forever and ever and ever just for that? Come on, that's not justice, that's not fairness.
So What we do, we just Pretend like it's all gone? Yeah. Do we know who originated the concept or the doctrine of annihilationism? Who kind of first brought that onto the scene?
Well, I mean, there have been people, and maybe in the next show, we can do a historical timeline on that to see how that and the recent proponents and some of them are, you know, they're they're well-known theologians, people we Respect.
So, you know, when Kirk Cameron posted this. People did react. Like, I really expected him to have a lot of followers, but it seems like the backlash against him was really, really, really. I don't even want to say it's severe, but it was complete. Like when I say that, I don't think the accusations of people bullying him like he said, because he was like, hey, I'm being publicly shamed.
I'm being bullied. I'm being purposely misunderstood. And I don't think that's true at all because we very clearly, everybody who listened to this understood what you said. But then he released this episode of his podcast. And if you'll play that, this sort of, this is kind of what got me.
In fact, there have been exponentially more views on reaction videos about my conversation with my son than there have been views of people who actually watched the full episode in context.
Now, I totally expect that kind of behavior from non-believers, from people who reject God, people who oppose the Christian faith. But what genuinely surprised me. What I was not prepared for, and honestly, what was so disheartening to me. personally. Was to see that same pattern coming from within the church itself, from my own brothers and sisters in Christ.
And even some very influential, prominent leaders within the church. Who Either did not watch the full episode in context or, for whatever reason, decided to totally mischaracterize what my son and I actually said.
Okay, I know this should not annoy me as much as it does, but that video right there, the whole stop the bullying thing, really annoyed me almost more than the comments about hell itself. First and foremost, Christians use the internet just like anybody else. Of course. The clips and the reaction videos got more views than my episode. Yeah, that's how the internet works.
If someone takes something that we say and frames it to be outrageous, or even if it is outrageous and people react to it, they're going to get more views than this conversation. 100%. That's how YouTube works. Functionally, if you're reacting, you're bringing in an audience of a person you are reacting to.
So, like, if we react to a, I don't pick a celebrity. Yeah. I don't know. I like Bieber.
Okay, if we react to Justin Bieber cliff, if he says something online and we react to Justin Bieber, we're going to bring in Justin Bieber fans who are not already watching the Cleaver Today show. That's just functionally how a reaction is. And I would have expected that from the lost, but Christians behaving this way. Also, behaving what way? Posting that they disagree with you?
Oh, so that's what I wanted to say. And I know we're giving Kirk Cameron a hard time, but he's also talking about being publicly shamed. A lot of the comments I saw from prominent Christian leaders, like he said, one of them was his friend Ray Comfort, said, we believe Kirk is sincere. We believe that conditional morality and annihilation are erroneous views. We firmly believe this is the only correct biblical view.
Wesley Huff said, with Kirk Cameron announcing his position on conditionalism, I see a lot of people attempting to critique it. I hold to eternal conscious torment. He goes on and says that. It's not a heresy because if you think it's a heresy, then John Start, John Stott, Edward Fudge, FF Bruce, he said they're all wrong, but. I wouldn't call.
Uh kurt cameron a heretic and then al Moeller said theologically and biblically there's nothing new here It's old hat and worn out argument You're not being publicly shamed. No, people are just disagreeing with you people just think that you're wrong and they have the right to say that you're wrong But doesn't that fit into the current narrative of you disagree with me Therefore you're attacking me you're bullying me you're mistreating me I'm you're not being publicly shamed. There are people posting comments on your video and that's not public shaming granted. I know I'm taking up all the air time. Maybe, maybe if we watched that whole like 40 minute episode, we'd find some nugget of truth where it's like, oh, wow, I really had Kirk Cameron pegged wrong.
But I doubt it. Yeah. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend like, of course, I watched the whole video, but I think all these people on the internet who are. Lambasting, or not even lambasting you, who are correcting you. Are not wrong.
They're not heretics. They're not beliefs. Based on what we saw, I also don't know what context the full video could add. I mean, his stance was pretty clear. That even just out of the context of the full video, what he said in the clip that we watched, there's not much you can do.
And yeah, man, you didn't feel none of evil. You were just like, that's my view right now. And it's, but people have the right to come and say, okay, you should correct that. That's wrong. That's right.
I disagree, and here's why.
Well, we need to back up and sort of understand the whole concept of hell. especially in the time in which we live, it has um Is uncomfortable, uncomfortable. Even that idea has seeped into Christian theology. Of course, people like John Stott. I respect John Stott a lot, but John Stott believed in annihilationism.
And, but you know, that's back in the, I believe it's in the late 80s, I think he came up, or he mentioned that, if I'm not wrong. And then, of course, we knew here and there that, yeah, John Stott believes in annihilationism. How can he do that? He is a British evangelical, I mean, great scholar, believed in the authority of scripture. How can he believe that?
But in our time, things have changed far more. Because of the culture in which we live.
So, according to the Gallup poll in 2023, only 59% of people believe in hell. Wow. Just like not even that, like... Not even that it's forever, just that it's real. And which is only slightly more than those who believe in the devil, which is 58%.
Hmm.
So devil, but no place for him.
Okay. Yeah. Well, fair enough. According to Pew Research, which also came out last year or two years ago in 2023, 72% of people believe in heaven, but only 62% believe in hell.
So we go we go take the good one. Yeah, this is this is the generation in which we live. And um And then, when asked what they thought people experienced in hell, they got all kinds of answers. 53% said, that people experience psychological suffering. 53% also said that people become aware of the suffering they created in the world.
51% said people experience physical suffering. 49% said those in hell cannot have a relationship with God, and 44% said that in hell you can meet Satan. And so 54% said that in hell you can meet Satan. I mean, these are horrible, horrible. Unbiblical ideas.
I think it shows where our culture is. We're uncomfortable with the idea of a bad place, of a torment, of a punishment. People are much more likely to latch on to heaven. And then, if you don't believe in God and you're not going to heaven, then you just. It's such a weird trade-off too, because it's like I can just say that I don't believe in hell and I can just stop thinking about it.
And for these 70, 80 years of my life, I'll live in peace with the risk that I'll live in eternal torment forever and ever. Like even if there's a 1% chance that's true. I definitely want to dig everything I say.
Okay, how do I avoid that? That's a huge gamble. Even if it turns out to be wrong, I'd rather go on ahead and just say, hey, I don't want that. What do I need to do?
So, just to give a little bit of understanding of how historically people have gone down this path of not believing in eternal. Punishment, a place called hell. Herman Bewink, who was a great theologian, by the way, he lived back in the eight uh you know late 19 Century into the 20th century. He said the grounds on which people argue against the eternity of hellish punishment. always remains the same.
Let me read that again. The grounds on which people argue against the eternity of hellish punishment always remains the same. Just, and I'm gonna give only three out of five points here. Eternal punishment is incompatible with the goodness. love and compassion of God, and makes him a tyrant, who takes pleasure in inflicting pain and torment, and who prep prepares praise for himself out of the everlasting moans of millions of unfortunate Creatures.
So, in other words, if God is loving, if he has love in his heart, if he is loved, then he won't send millions and millions of people to. Eternal Conscious torment. Yeah. The punishment of hell does not fit the nature of God. That's the essence.
Of that thought. That's what I think people have reconciling. And presented in those words, that makes sense. It makes God seem like a tyrant who's sitting there supervising this. Horrific scene in hell.
Yeah, and is okay with it. Second thing that Bavink brings out is that eternal punishment is incompatible with the justice of God. We mentioned that a few moments ago at the top of the show. Is incompatible with the justice of God since it is unrelated and in no way proportionate to the sin in question.
So, justice is being challenged and does not match the offense. which, however, is appalling, says Beving, is nevertheless limited and finite in character. It is inconceivable that God who is perfect in love and supreme justice, will punish human beings even if they have sinned a thousand years. But everlasting torment. Yeah, that's the nature of eternity, isn't it?
But it's funny. We love it when it's, hey, we'll be blessed and we'll be in paradise forever. Yeah. That's all great. Even if I have sinned on this earth, I've got grace and now I'll be in paradise forever.
But eternal justice, eternal punishment can't happen. Yeah. You know, maybe we can talk about this later. If. And justice.
is the issue Then rejecting God, And being eternal torment forever is not right. Than receiving God and being eternal. It's also in heaven. It's not right. Yeah, this is not right.
That's a good point. This really is not a just decision. There's nothing fair about it. Maybe our heaven should also run out. Right.
Yeah. You can enjoy this for a set number of years and then you just see. But Jesus took care of all that, man. Jesus is a. I mean, you know, if you go with justice, then.
Yeah, he did, but what did I contribute to that? Nothing. And that's what grace is all about. I get it. I get all that.
And I'm all for, yeah, I'm with you. I'm all for agreeing with you. Yeah, yeah. I'm all for, like, hey, Jesus has the final word.
Okay, well, you need to read today's verse of the day. That was Jesus' word on hell. Right. That's right. It's really funny how we want those words.
But not that. Yeah, Jesus has defined a word, period, not just when it's comfortable. Right, right, right. Right. Here's some.
The third one, such eternal punishment is also unimaginable and inconceivable. Scripture speaks of fire, a worm, and darkness, but these are all images. Taken literally, they are mutually exclusive. I mean, how in the world can you have a fire and it being dark and fire burns things up, but there's a worm that doesn't die.
So they say, you know, all this stuff, the lake of fire in Matthew 18, Um How can that be? It's not literal. Yeah, how can that be the blackness of darkness as Jude talks about?
So hell is too confusing. Let's just stop. Let's get more sophisticated with this and understand. The literary genres, the metaphors, the similes, the personification, all that stuff, man, stop doing this. I can track with the first two premises.
I disagree with them, but I can track with the first two. But the third one, you're talking about a supernatural realm, something that is outside of the physical world. We wouldn't apply the same laws of earth to heaven.
So, why are we trying to apply them to hell? Of course, we can have fire that doesn't produce light. There's fire and darkness. But heaven is a glorious place. Heaven is a.
Oh, I can't even describe it. There's nothing here that helps me describe heaven. But there's something here that helps you describe hell. Yeah, and I can certainly rule out the concept of hell basically. But hell is not a place where God is.
Hell is a place that God has prepared. God has prepared. The emphasis needs to be in the right place. The God has prepared for the devil and his angels.
So the architect of hell is still God. That's right. Satan. Yes, this isn't Satan's stronghold that he uses to oppose God. This is a prison, an eternal torment that was meant for Satan and his angels.
So Our time is very short. Let me give you a few points here. Because the Bible is our guide. Let's let's let's Kirk. You need to have some growing pains.
Very nice. Very nice. Let me hear Pans hi here. Got to go back to the Bible. Um So The proper balance, the proper study of the Bible, the proper balance of Old and New Testament.
The grid of creation, fall, redemption, all of these things need to be taken into account. And I would also add something to it. You need to bring a proper balance of theological, philosophical, moral, aesthetic issues. And a great work is Jerry Walls and Jonathan. I think it's Canvig.
Kvan. Kvanvig? Yeah. His name. But they've they've they've done some work in this area.
Number one. The Old Testament talks about hell as sheol. But Sheol was just a glimpse of what hell would be in the end. I mean, just like this. I mean, nobody sends their kid to kindergarten and.
you know, expecting them to learn trigonometry. Right. So also in the Old Testament, Um Todd that I believe You know, we're in germ form, or a seed form. Let's say germ sounds, you know, diseased, seed form. But the seed contained all the elements that would grow up into a big tree.
So the teaching of Sheol was a kindergarten teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity is there in the Old Testament. Come on. You know, I don't know about people say, I just read a book that talks about, you know, the Old Testament was written by Jewish people for Jewish people, and there's no Trinity there. I'm like, oh my goodness. Trinity's in the very first, the very first chapter of Genesis.
Yeah, but they will reread it in some other way. Gotcha, gotcha. And just because Jewish people who did not believe in Christ or do not believe in Christ don't accept it does not mean that it's not there. Talk to Messianic Jewish people and they will tell you, oh, yeah, we see it everywhere. Right.
I mean, the first Christians were all Jewish people. That's true. That's true. Right? Yeah.
So, um, In the Old Testament, the word is sheol. And which is in Hebrew, but in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. From Hebrew to Greek, is the word the word is Hades. Shout out to James Woods. Yep.
This is a place where both the saved, okay, both the saved. And the lost went after they died. This is Shio, both saved and lost went after they died. After Jesus died, he descended into Sheol and Hades. That's where I think some of these.
Confessions or creeds have gone wrong because they have Jesus descending into hell. He did not go to hell. Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. He did not die and then go to hell and then was punished in hell by who? They think by Satan.
So, so Sheol, so Sheol was not a. A kindergartner's understanding of hell, shield is an actual separate place. Right, okay, okay, that makes sense. But it gives us a glimpse of what hell is like. It's not like Sheol is hell, but it gives us a glimpse of what hell is about.
I'm with you, okay? But we need to understand that a little more. We're going to read some references on this.
Okay. Because Jesus died, descended into Sheol. Hades slash Hades, Hebrews Sheol. Greek is Hades, and led captivity captive. Psalm 68 talks about this.
Ephesians 4 talks about it. And he took the saved from Sheol into the presence of God. Gotcha.
Now Hades only has the lost and those fallen angels who sinned before the great flood. Nonetheless, some of the references to Sheol Hades do tell us what hell would be one day. This is like a sample of what it'll be one day. But initially it had both the saved and the lost. Temporarily waiting.
Gotcha.
So let's look at some references, starting with Job. Job 24, 19. as drought and heat consume the snow waters, so the It's not the word grave there, so the sheol consumes those who have sinned.
So there is an idea of destruction there for the sinners in sheol, yeah, not just in hell. Is this a verse that is taken... For annihilationism, people lean on this one. They may, they may, which is very hard because now you have to also explain how do you interpret the Old Testament. Right.
How do you interpret these concepts that are given in seed form? How do you? I don't know if Kurt Cameron did that just so he can get some views. I don't know, or he really does not understand hermeneutics. Because it is complex.
You cannot just run with it and say, and then and then throw the burden of proof on somebody else.
Well, you tell me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you prove to me or convince me. I I can't stand that when people do that. It's like, now you run your mouth and I'm gonna sit here and judge you.
Right. And then throw something else at you and throw something else at you. Yeah. That's that's poor Cameron. Stop it.
Deuteronomy chapter 32 and verse 22 say: For a fire is kindled in my anger. And shall burn to the lowest, it's not hell. Sheo. Hell is referred to in the Old Testament, albeit in elementary school language.
Some more references here. In Isaiah 66, the prophet gives an imagery of what will happen to those who oppose God. Verse 24, Isaiah 66, 24, and they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me, for their worm does not die. When Jesus talks about the worm does not die, he's talking from Isaiah. Yeah.
From Isaiah.
So all of those people who are out there going, well, how do you explain? How do you, you know, this imagery does not match and is contradictory.
Now you have to explain Isaiah 66 as well. There's a lot more burden on them back. Yeah, we're out of time. I really want to keep going with this conversation, but we do have to wrap up. But it's so helpful for us in understanding what it is the Bible says about hell.
That's how we need to base our opinion on. Not what we think, not what we feel, not what we hear popular people saying, what the Bible says Jesus teaches us about what hell is. That's right. Guys, make sure you join us next time. Same time, same place.
We're going to be diving into this topic further here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for supporting today's episode. And if today was your first time listening to us, we just want to tell you we love you and we hope you join us again for the conversation tomorrow. Don't forget that you can always support us financially at Avadansha.com forward slash give. That's right.
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