You Christians are a bunch of meanies. What is the big deal? If you guys believe in hell, Kirk Cameron believes in something different. What's the harm in that? All this and more coming up today in the 3D Tomorrow show.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Happy Friday to everyone out there listening.
Thank you for joining us. Second day of 2026. How was your first day of 2026, Ryan? It was good. Good first day.
Dr. Shah, how was your first day of 2026? Sleeping. Sleeping. Since you're up late, welcoming the new year.
You end up sleeping the next day. Wow. It's so good to see you. I'm glad you're awake and here in the Clearview Today studio. For those of you guys listening for the first time, we're here with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, the internet is still abuzz with everything we've been talking about yesterday and everything that Kirk Cameron has mentioned in his comments on hell. I don't want to get too ahead of myself. But I think it's going to be a great, great show today.
Yeah, absolutely. We're continuing some of the conversation that we had yesterday. And these conversations are important and it helps us to do what we set out to do, which is engage hearts and minds for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You've got to engage both to engage the whole person and equip them for the work of the kingdom. That's right.
If you're a Christian and you've been consuming any sort of Christian media through the month of December, you know exactly what we're talking about. But let's just say there's someone out there living under a rock. They're like, wait, what in the world happened? Dr. Shell, will you give us just a quick recap of what happened?
So um Kirk Cameron uh Again. Person, I admired, and was very grateful for his ministry over the years and for his stance on Christianity, especially Christianity in America and our Judeo-Christian Foundation, and all that. I mean, even he made a movie about Christmas, you know, how Christmas is great. Yeah, so all that is wonderful. And then he comes out.
And with his son, apparently, and makes this video about um how He believes in annihilationism. Yes. Which is the doctrine that. Hell is not eternal. It is there, but then there is a point where it ceases to be and people are just destroyed.
Yes. And so, people, especially a lot of Christians, Christian academics, but also people in Christian media, including Living Water, who had a very tight relationship with him, came out and just said, nobody bullied him, nobody was mean to him. They just said, hey, that is not biblical. Kirk Cameron is wrong. Period.
The end. As far as I've seen, that's the extent of the response. Kurt Cameron responded and he said, Let me be very clear. This was in his follow-up episode. I believe in hell.
I believe in judgment. I have not denied the authority of Scripture. And then he goes on to say that all I did was ask an honest theological question. I haven't seen the full video, so I am speaking out of ignorance here. But did he ask a question?
No. Or did he just say, this is my. Stance. This is what I believe. He said, he said.
I have always grown up believing in an eternal conscious torment. Right. But if you guys present me with a different view, I will change my mind. That's almost verbatim, which is probably. I'm not wrong.
He did, you know, the star of growing pains does talk about growing in his understanding. Yeah. Like he has sort of evolved. Based on his study or reading of people. And through people in history, I guess he said something.
Maybe he did. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking too much there. But he did say that he's been convinced. Which implies that, at least in his mind, eternal conscious torment is a lesser view than annihilationism.
Right. And he, yeah, he did say, this is my understanding right now. This is where I'm at. Which is, yeah, completely fine. But everybody's allowed to come and you posted that on the internet.
You posted your opinion. People are allowed to disagree with you. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's what we were talking about.
We had a great conversation on the nature of hell yesterday. But, Dr. Shah, today I kind of wanted to ask, because I think there are people who are out there who are asking, what is the big deal? Yeah, let him believe what he wants.
Well, the thing is, why is this doctrine of hell critical? Because it matters what you believe about hell. Because what you believe about hell says a lot about what you believe about God. You know, the reason Kirk Cameron is supposedly espousing this view. I know he's trying to deny it now, but he is espousing this view is because.
He doesn't believe that if fair God would allow someone to be eternally tormented forever.
So He has questions because of his Understanding of the justice of God, the nature of God's justice.
So Yes, it matters what we believe about the nature of God. Absolutely. You've talked about this on the show, and maybe you can talk about it a little bit here for some of our first-time listeners. But there really, like genuinely, there really aren't any secondary, tertiary doctrines that we can afford to just throw our hands on. Because at some point, and like hell.
Impacts a critical doctrine almost immediately. But at some point, all these doctrines do sort of connected. Absolutely. Everything is woven together. Yeah, there's some people who believe in in like a tiered way of looking at theology.
Oh, there are some things that are primary doctrine, secondary doctrine, tertiary.
So primary hey, that you hang on to those. Uh so primary would be The authority of scripture. Primary would be The incarnation primary would be the Trinity, primary would be the exclusivity of Christ. you know, to be s to salvation. Secondary would be other things.
Ah, well, what what falls in secondary?
Well, maybe hell goes in that category. Yeah, baptism. Baptism can go in that category. Tertiary, that that now church government and things like that and everything. But I think All of those doctrines are somehow connected.
Because let's just talk about. Church government, we've done an episode on that before. The priesthood of believers is a very important doctrine, which means. All of us stand as priests before God.
So, to have different tiers in Christianity, that certain people are the spiritual heads, and then certain people are a little less, and then there's a crowd. Uh I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Now you have to reconcile that with So, how much of the Holy Spirit do they have?
You know, yeah, great point. But then then gets the question like so does everybody get to vote on On church matters, even if they're right now not living in a godly way and have a godly understanding of God's word, work in this world. I mean, what do you do? And and so, yeah, again. Then we say Right, you're right.
But then Does that mean everybody has to vote? Right. Does that mean. That you have a certain group that has to vote? Could it be that the pastor leads the church with proper accountabilities?
You know, so they're all connected in some ways. Yes, yes. And especially hell, hell is one of those quote-unquote secondary doctrines that almost immediately connects back to the nature of God. It's one of the things that you would say is a primary doctrine. Absolutely.
I would put it in the primary. Yeah, I would too.
Well, anything that touches the nature of God. I mean, we've got to think rightly about that. We've got to get our minds wrapped around what the Bible says. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. They start going with, I don't feel like God would do this.
I can't believe in a God who would fill in the blank. For us here, it's send people to eternal torment. It's also so crazy that it's the literal highest stakes situation you could ever encounter in your life and/or eternity. And we're going to put it in a secondary doctrine and be like, it's okay if we just disagree on this thing. It's also not ambiguous because Jesus has a lot to say about hell.
So going back to The Old Testament. We were sort of walking through the Old Testament, looking at scriptures. We looked at Isaiah 66 that talks about the worm never dies. You know, Jesus quoted that passage. Then there's also Daniel twenty two.
I'm sorry, chapter twelve, verse two. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Again. This is how the Old Testament talks about it. Sheol where at one time both saved and unsaved were there, gives us a glimpse Everlasting life, and Jesus came and got the saved out of Sheol into the presence of God.
And everlasting contempt or everlasting shame. That is a picture of hell. Yeah. Okay. That's that part of Shield that is.
Hell, yeah, but we're as we know it, but we're getting hung up on that word everlasting because we want it to be temporary contempt. If God was just, it would be temporary, right? It would, yeah, punish them, but not forever, right?
Now, when you get to the New Testament. This is where Jesus referred to hell, as he mentioned in our last show in the opening. Jesus referred to hell more than anyone else. Mm-hmm.
So let's look at some of the things that he said. You know. Just to give you a context, Jesus hasn't died on the cross yet. He hasn't descended to Sheol or Hades to free the believers.
So he mentions the city of Capernaum. Going down even further than Sodom into Hades for rejecting him despite the myriad of miracles.
So, if you remember that, woe to you, you know, and he mentioned these names. Uh And then he promises Peter on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of heaven. Haiti shall not prevail against it. Um So gates of Hades. What does that mean?
Gates of... Hades. Have you ever wondered that? It's like, what does that mean? Gates of hell shall not like the gates of hell come out and try to.
Like a big gate like runs around. I don't know why. How does that work? I always pictured as mortar, like an enemy city. You know what I mean?
Like an enemy. Force. Yeah. Almost. And I don't know if that's the right way to think of it.
Yeah, in a sense, you're right. The expression is referring to the gates. flinging open And a mighty army is rushing out towards the enemy. That's what it means.
So, when it says the gates of hell or the gates of Hades, it's referring to the hordes of hell coming against. The church. The church. Wow. So, here when Hades is used, it's really in reference to hell.
Yes. Got you. Yes. As we know it now. Got it.
But it but the word Jesus used to depict depict hell is actually Gehenna. Yeah. Is that a Greek word? Is that a Hebrew word?
Well, it comes from two Hebrew words: Gai and Hinnom, valley of Hinnom. Is just south and west of Jerusalem. And child sacrifices were offered there by the rebellious and idolatrous people of God. King Josiah desecrated this. Uh this valley.
Okay, so Jeremiah chapter 7, verse 32. Therefore, behold, the days are coming. says the Lord. when it will be no more be called Tehet or the valley of the Son of Hinnom. But the valley of slaughter for they will bury in tofet until there is no room.
The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth, and no one will frighten them away. Another passage where we hear Gehenom or Hinnom Valley is Isaiah chapter thirty, verse thirty-three. for Tophet was established of old. Yes, for the king it is prepared he has made it deep and large its pyre is fire with much wood. The breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
So there's this real valley in Jerusalem. Right. On earth. It's a place.
South and west of Jerusalem. We've walked, we've seen it. Oh, yes, absolutely. Jesus, correct me if I'm wrong. I think I'm understanding.
Jesus is looking at that pit and saying, that's what it's going to be like. Right. And the Old Testament, both Jeremiah and Isaiah talk about the Hinnom Valley and talk about the burning and the torment and the dishonor and the shame that never ends. What was Gehenna or the Henon Valley? What was it known for?
In that day? In Jesus' time? Yes. It was a dumpster. Like a big garbage.
Yeah, like King Josiah had desecrated that valley just to make sure that no more. temples and child sacrifices would ever be built. Like like pagan temples, whatever we built there.
So it became The garbage dump. of the The city of Jerusalem.
So they would smoldering trash. They would just burn their trash all day long. Yes, just to make sure that people would never, ever, ever. Do what had happened there. Wow.
Yeah. I can imagine how s how much it stunk, how terrible it was.
Well, people in the West uh, and I'm talking about America at least. I have never seen places like that. I have. I have been to places, even in the town where I grew up in India, where there was a place of where nothing but trash was. Really?
Yeah. It's uh Uh sewer. is is flowing. through this this this this almost like a canal. And it's Dark black water.
You don't want to look at it too long because you'll see things. It's nasty, it's trash, all. Both sides of the canal. You see dogs, you see animals there, you see trash somewhere burning. A lot of places smoke.
Have you ever seen something like that in America since you've lived here? Never. I haven't. It's funny you say that. I had never thought about that until you just said that.
But I remember as a kid, all I was so much anti-litter. Don't throw your trash. Like people really, even today, like if I throw trash out the window, which I don't, but people will get mad. Yeah. And there's a and so I think you're right.
I've never, I've seen pictures and I've seen videos, but I've never seen with my eyes what like even like even like a dump or a land landfill, we don't really have anything to compare to the landfill here is nothing. I mean, it's it's filthy, it's dirty, it's smelly, but people in the West have not seen.
some of the things that people in the East see on a regular basis. Yeah. Kids have to go past that. It's like a bridge and underneath is that sewer is flowing and all that. I mean, it is it's In Gehenna, the Hinnam Valley, you would even burn the bodies of criminals.
That's where they were burned. Gehawly. That's. That's rough. Oh, yeah.
That's rough. So that is the image of eternal. What we know as hell. That's what is invoked.
So let's read some of those passages here. I didn't want to interrupt you. I was going to ask you before you read that passage. Do you think that's why a lot of people in the West, like a lot of like this day and age Christians are so opposed to this? Because we just can't.
We have no idea. We can't fathom what that's like. Because we've never seen it. People in the West, when I say we, take me out of that. equation.
People in the West haven't seen some of the things that people in the East see. Like if Jesus was here today and he was to take like the modern Christian, even someone like me, to the West, or to the East, and to see all that trash and say, that's hell. That's what it's going to be like. And it's not just trash. Please don't misunderstand.
Again, on the radio, we don't want to make you gag. It's. Pretty bad. Yeah. It's very bad.
Our apologies if you're eating dinner. We want you to enjoy your day.
So I'm not going to describe what all the things I've seen. Right. And if Jesus were to look at me, like Jesus, meek and mild, you know, blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, of course. I'm joking. But if he was to say, that's hell, I could see where a modern-day Christian would rebel against that and say, I've never seen anything like that.
That doesn't exist. That cannot exist forever. And you're going to put someone there forever? Yeah. Yeah, but people like us who have seen it, walked by it, thank God I didn't live around it, but we had to go there for certain things because it was close to the marketplace.
And why close to the marketplace? Because that's where fish is sold. Yeah, so what would you do with it with the track? The fish heads and the scales.
Well, you throw it all in the river. Yeah. I don't. I mean, that's what they did. And it's not a river.
It's a sewer canal. Oh, man. It's not a river. Oh. No, no.
They said the market up right by the sewer canal. Yes, of course, because that's where you throw everything. Gotcha. Just sit in there. Yeah, it's nasty.
Disgusting. And anyway, there's so much more. If you want to know the parts that we've censored out for the air, just write it and let us know. 252-582-5028, we'll send you a list. We'll send you a high-res JPEG.
Now, keep in mind, this is what I'm describing you as the world from the 1970s, 1980s, because that's how. When I was in India. And I left in 1991, or, you know, not just leave. My dad sent me here, mom and dad sent me here to study. But that's the world I'm describing to you.
The world that is being described here.
Okay, Jeremiah's time, Isaiah's time. You're talking about in the. In the first century. uh f first millennium B C.
So, I mean, there is no cleaning the canals. No, yeah. There is no PTSD from that. Oh, man. That's rough.
Goodness. It's worse. What I saw is nothing compared to what they. They saw. And that's the picture they dropped.
That's the depiction of hell. Wow. So in Matthew 5, 22, it says But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raka, shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, you fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
I won't say it. Gehenna. I ain't got that. Gehenna, Gehennam Valley. Whoever says, you fool shall be in danger of Gehenna fire.
Ew, I wouldn't even step. Here's how I would handle I used to think. 'Cause, you know, you would go buy fish there. And I would not even look in that direction. My mom would, when I used to go with my grandmother, she would just kind of shield me and say, just look that way, just look that way.
And so I was just keeping my head like that the whole time. And when I go with my mom, she's like, You know, we have to go get that. I'm like, dude, we have to. I don't want to eat that. I don't want to eat that.
I don't want to eat it. Oh, yeah. Like, well, you like it when we cook it. You like when we cook fish and all that. I was like, yes, but I don't want to come here.
Why don't you just do it? I'll wait up. Top, and it's not like you go in the sewer, just right. Yeah, no, the shops are fine. But you go.
you know, fifty steps that way, that's where the sewer The side hill is, and I wouldn't even want to get close to the shop. The shop is. It's fine. But fifty feet in a behind the shop. Is this Almost like a slope.
You still remember it to this day? Oh, yeah. It's covered with this litter, piled. Piled, I would say. At least 20 feet with this trash.
And then there's a sewer that's flowing underneath. And there's stuff being, I mean, it's. And it's hot. It's hot, it's nasty, it's smelly, it's flies, you name it. Oh, wow.
You know, you see not vultures, but you see not. Like crows. Buzzards. Buzzards are all over the place. That's wow.
Yeah, just swarming, sitting out there. I never even want to look. You know, pigs running around. Yeah. Yeah, that's why people in the East don't care for pork.
They don't realize that pork here is farm-raised. Yeah, as large as a cute little piggy. That pork is different. That pork is different. Yeah, if you want to eat pork there.
Yeah, it's natural. Because it's feeding on that trash. Yeah. Oof.
So. That is hell. How many of y'all want to go there? No, not at all. No, thanks.
Not at all. I want to get this right. I think it's powerful. Even the way you described it, though, from your memory, Dr. Shaw, I don't want to be near it.
I don't even want to look at it. And that feeds into these verses that are talking about the shame, the disgrace, because it's torment, but it's also a level of shame. That punishment, that separation. There's a shame there.
So I don't even want to look at it. I don't even want to be near it. I want to read one more passage. Mark chapter 9, verse 42. Jesus is talking, he said, Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble.
So, of course, disciples are intended in the little ones, but also little ones as in children. are definitely being addressed here.
So, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, that could be abuse, that could be neglect. That could be mistreatment of some kind. It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It shall be better for you to enter into life maimed rather than having two hands to go to not hell.
To Gehenna. Gehenna. Yeah. I'm kind of with you. It's like, if it's like, hey, you have to spend an eternity in that trash sewer heap full of burning fire or lose the hand, I'll be like, take the hand.
Take the hand. You can have it. Take the hand, please. Take both hands.
So. into the fire that shall never be Quenched. Never be quenched. People walked past Hennam Valley, it was always smoky, you could always smell. you know, in a burning flesh trash.
It was always just this this foggy Valley. It was never like clean, beautiful, sunny day. You know, it's not like that. It was a haze in there. Always a haze.
And it's just always, always kind of like the sewer that I was using. It's not a clear look.
So, why, based on our conversation about Kurt Cameron's video and based on our readings from the Old and the New Testament, why is it important for us to have this view, an eternal conscious torment view of hell versus annihilationism? I mean, many, many things. And maybe we can keep talking about this because, as I mentioned in the opening, it impacts your view of God. God is so holy, and sin is so awful. We don't realize.
We think some sins are better than others.
Some sins are not bad.
Well, maybe the consequences may not be as bad for me, me saying a white lie versus. You going out there and raping and killing somebody, of course, the consequences are far. greater there. But Sin is sin in the sense of even one tiny, tiny microscopic speck of sin. is just as abhorring to God as massive you know Tons of sin.
It doesn't matter. Sin is sin. That speck of sin. That's why, in other religions or Islam, where they say it's like, come on, just ask God to forgive you. He forgives you.
You don't need someone to die for you.
Well, I beg to differ. Yeah. Because I don't think your God is holy enough. I think we've talked about it on the show before, but when people say that, it's like, I just can't understand how they're the same to him, how he won't tolerate even that little bit. Like, imagine if you had like a glass of water.
I don't know why this is always the image I go to, and you took that sewer, right? That Gehenna that you grew up in, and I just took a little drop. I take a ton. Forget about drop. Take a little toothpick and just dip into that thing and just dip it into the glass.
And drink that water. Yeah. No, I'm not drinking that water. Absolutely. Just a little bit.
Yeah, that's a great illustration. We talked about that before. You actually gave me that illustration. Like, if you just take a little bit of dirt or a little bit of filth and sludge and put it in the water, drink it. Yeah, it's just a little bit of a great illustration.
If you did not wake up on that illustration, whether you're listening or watching, I don't know if anything will help you. But isn't that what we do? In that way, we hand that glass to God and say it's not that much. Just drink it. Just consume it.
Yeah, it's asking God to drink that water. Yeah, yeah. Not God doing it. Absolutely not. No, he's not going to tell her.
I'm not going to drink that. Yeah, I wouldn't either. And you're expecting God to drink it? Yeah, I wouldn't either. Going back to Mark 9, and I know our time is coming to a close, which means we've got to do another show.
We got to do one more show. All good. It says. Where their worm does not die, Mark 9:44, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off.
It is better for you to enter life maim rather than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna. Yes, sir. into the fire that shall never be quenched. Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. Again, quoting from Isaiah.
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell. Fire means Better off with one eye. Metaphorical about the eye being taken out, but it's just as serious, it's causing you to come to Christ. And reject A life of sin and receive The righteousness through Christ. Because One eye in heaven versus two eyes to see all that filth, or step into it, or touch it?
You know, that verse really helps me on a personal level. And I think it's going to help a lot of people. Because when I was 15, I was really nervous about getting saved because I thought I was getting saved for the wrong reason. I didn't want to go to hell. I believed that hell existed when it was preached to me.
And I was like, you know what? I really don't want that. I should get saved. And I and I held off for like Months because I was like, that's not the right reason to get saved. Because people told me, no, you should get saved because you love Jesus and you want a relationship with him.
Hearing Jesus talk like that, where he says, hey, whatever it takes, you don't want to go to this place. That even to this day, as a 33-year-old man, that verse helps me. Yeah. Absolutely. I've talked to people who have had a similar thought process.
Like, that's the wrong reason to get saved. I have to get saved because I want to be God's child. I want to have a relationship with Him. You should also be afraid of hell. Yeah.
Western, Western Christianity is sometimes so clean. I agree. All right. And then also in the passage we read In the opening, where Jesus will separate his sheep from the goats. In Matthew 25, verse 41, it says.
Then he will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the Everlasting fire. The word Gehenna is not there. But everlasting fire. Everlasting fire. What does that mean?
The concept? Temporary? Yeah, there's no temporary fire. It's not where you're just going to suffer for a little while. And what is this fire prepared for?
For the devil and his angels. Why? For I was hungry, you gave me no food. I was thirsty, you gave me no drink. I was a stranger, and you did not take me in, and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
The whole point is for the disciples to know that one day you may be all these things. That's right. And those who reject you. Those who turn their backs on you, this is coming for them. Yeah, there's an immediacy, there's an urgency, and maybe we'll talk about that in the next show.
Yeah, absolutely. Guys, make sure you join us next time. Same time, same place. We're going to be diving further into this topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for supporting today's episode: La Blue Ultra Pure Water and Mighty Muscadine.
Very grateful for our sponsors. And if you're interested in becoming a sponsor for the Clearview Today Show, write in and let us know at 252-582-5028. Or you can email us at contact at clearviewtodayshow.com. That's right, Nashville, Tennessee. We are coming your way.
NRB 2026 is happening February. What are the dates? 17th through the 20th. February 17th through the 20th. We're going to be there as part of Pray.com, Truth Network, and also Dr.
Shah's going to be doing a book signing. Come by, say hi. We've got some books for you guys that we'd love to give away. Also, we're having a big, big apologetics conference here at Clearview Church, March 28th. You can get those tickets at clearviewbc.org, as well as I think there's a link on AbadonShah.com.
If there's not, there will be very soon. But we want you guys to be here. People are flying in from all over the country. For this conference. It's going to be great.
March 28th, right here at Clearview Church. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you next time on Clearview Today.
