People approach the Bible differently. A lot of people believe it is God's holy and flawless word. It's the foundation for our faith and for our life. But there are others who dismiss it as mythology or just helpful storytelling. Today, we're going to see that that view isn't just wrong, it can have devastating consequences.
Coming up right now on the Theory Today Show. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Show, already midweek over here in the studio. We hope you guys are having a great week so far. You've been encouraged by all of these conversations. We got more conversations for you today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show.
Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Welcome to you. Good to see you.
It's going to be a great conversation. Oh, man. We have all sorts of great conversations here at the Clearview Today Show. Been talking a lot about Job. We're going to keep talking about Job, but Ryan, I think you got an important message for all the people today.
I do. You know, everything that we do here from producing the show to sharing the word online, it happens because of faithful listeners and viewers just like you who give financially so that the Clearview Today Show is possible.
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Just know that your gifts and your donations are making a real impact in people's lives. That's right. You know, Dr. Shaw, we've been talking a lot about Job, the book of Job. And Job is one of those books that's difficult for people, not only like morally, how could God do this?
How could God allow this? But it's also difficult in the sense of did it actually happen? Is this a historical account of a man named Job who really lived? And in fact, there's lots of college and university professors who don't believe the Bible and they will use Job. As proof that the Bible is myth.
You know, that's the book of Job is their evidence against the Bible. Absolutely. I mean, there are professors who are very godly, they're very educated, they have written much, and just sitting in their presence, you not only grow academically, but you also grow spiritually. I mean, it's just amazing, amazing people. But then you also have professors in colleges and universities and even seminaries who actively try to dismantle or a better word would be deconstruct Christianity.
All under the guise of we're just being honest. This is integrity. This is academic integrity. I just want to tell you the truth, guys. I mean, that's it.
It's not the truth. They have an agenda, and the agenda is very clear because they ignore certain information. information that is readily available to scholars. Information that it's not like outdated stuff from like the 1800s that we know their scholarship has advanced and we know better now. No, this is.
Papers that are coming out now. These are dictionary articles in the past 10, 20 years. How can they ignore all this mass of information And still Talk as if This is back 1800s, you know, the all the German higher criticism that was coming into the West and coming into America and doubting the miracles and doubting God's word and all that. How is that possible? How can they ignore all this?
Well, you have an agenda. And I'm not going to get into judging motives, but I think money has a lot to do with it. Yeah. I guess it shouldn't at this point, but it surprises me for people to look at the Bible and just. I mean, just view it as myth.
Just view it as something like these are just kind of like fables for us to live our life by, or they're just sort of like, you know, educational principles for us to as a guideline. I I guess that speaks to having grown up, you know, how we grew up, but It just always baffles me that people can look at scripture, look at God's word and say, hey, that's not. True. It's not real. I think it functions.
I think people see it as because it can function as myth, that must be how it was intended. I think it's because, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, Dr. Shaw, but it might be because we know we're supposed to learn some lesson from this. And therefore, it's easy to, it's, or it's easier to put it in fiction. I can't see that.
So it must be like a fable. It must be like a fable because I am supposed to be learning something from this. But I also think you're right, Dr. Shaw, where it's like, I can also capitalize on that. Because there are tons of people out there, like there are tons of Christians out there who struggle with, well, okay, did a whale really swallow a guy for three years, for three days?
Like, did a man really put his hands up and the earth stood still? Like, that would destroy all life. Like, did this really happen?
So, because there are Christians out there, it's like, I can capitalize on that. I can say, hey, don't worry, Christians. This is just a book of. Myths and mythologies designed to help you live better. Buy my book that tells you more all about it.
Right. It always comes back. Buy my program, buy my courses, subscribe to my podcast, get on my YouTube channel. It always comes back to that. And you can still be a good Christian and you can live your life guilt-free.
Knowing that the Bible is not true, but you're still a great Christian. Right, right. And so, what do these people get out of this? Of course, definitely it's money, but it's also all the adulation that comes with being this winsome person. professor who is out there opening hearts and minds and setting people free from the captivity of fundamental or fundamentalist theology and conservative dogma.
You are here to liberate people liberate people. And in the process, you're also a philanthropist. This is not for me. No, I'm not going to use all that money from my books and videos and all that just so I can buy a yacht. No, of course.
I feed the hungry. All the money, 100% of it is going to feed all the hungry children of the world. And I don't doubt it. I mean, I'm sure much of that money does go in those directions. But even that.
Is meant to make that person feel good about himself or herself. Yeah. Yeah. It's meant to cast you in that winsome light so that you can say, well, if I like this person, I'm much less inclined to think that he's wrong. Yeah.
Right. And if I trust him to be right, then of course I'm going to keep buying his. Yeah. This person doesn't go out there like these TV evangelists and buys a helicopter or goes out there and has a mansion and all that. No, no, I mean, this man is just down to earth with his tweed jacket and he just walks around like a regular guy at Starbucks.
And he can talk to him. Yeah, find out how much he charges for one of those pods. Right. Yeah. Yeah, try to get him on your podcast.
You find that price point, you go, oh, there it is. There it is. $10,000, $20,000, $30,000. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. He's a philanthropist, all right? Yeah. So, all that to say, and I know, I know, those who are, if you're from North Carolina, somewhere near the Raleigh-Durham, Chapel Hill area, you already know who I'm talking about. Yeah.
But if you're not. You can find such a professor anywhere you go. There are people like this, and they actively try to undermine Christianity. By the way, kind of going off on a tangent here. I challenge some of them to go do that to to Islam.
Why don't you try that with the Quran? Yeah. Because you must feel very similarly, right? Like you can't be all cool with the Quran. Wait, are you scared?
Are you scared they may chop off your hand? Are you scared that you may have a bomb under your car? I fear reprisals. That's right, that's right. We always stand for the truth, but we know the only real power is violence.
Right. There it is. So, some of these people, you know, who are such truths. Warriors, it's only because Christianity is a religion of love and peace and grace, and we lay all our cards on the table and say, This is it, this is all there is. And yes, it can be taken in that way, but no, it should not be.
So you come and do that. But another religion that says, hey, you speak one more thing about our prophet, or you see one more thing about our holy book. You will find out in a moment. And we're like, oh, you know, moving on to Christianity. Yeah, let's not.
Y'all do your thing. If y'all just stay on that side of their head, you're honestly fine.
So, how do we, Dr. Shai, how do we, as churchgoers, as ministry leaders, how do we not only be aware of this, but how do we help people not be swayed by these individuals who are deconstructing the Bible? I'm talking especially to church leaders, those in like. Senior pastors. Student ministry leaders, Sunday school teachers, discipleship leaders, small group leaders, educate yourself.
Don't just run off on the internet and ask for a quick Bible study on a topic. Or what's the best Bible study in the book of? Esther, what's the best Bible study on the Gospel of Luke or Paul's letter to the Ephesians? I need something quick so I can know, educate yourself. Find out Some of these issues.
Find out what's happening out there. Find out what the students are. Hearing and talking about You say, Well, they're not talking about this yes. You'd be surprised. Yeah, they are.
There they are. uh being bombarded on at least on social media by challenges to Biblical Christianity. to the facts of our faith to names and people and places. And so Find out and then Educate yourself and then give them proper evidence. Uh and help them to know that no Yes, there may be pastors out there who don't know much, or there may be Sunday school teachers back in your day who did not know a whole lot.
They all they only told you three stories. Yeah, and at the most, I get it. But that does not mean all of us are just the same. Right, right. What do you think the response is to those who say, you know, listen, my faith is my faith, and it's.
It's strong enough not to be knocked down by life. I don't need to do, I don't need to. Arm myself with all this knowledge because at the end of the day, it's just supposed to be faith anyway.
Well, think about what Peter said. You know, always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is within you with meekness and fear.
So always be ready to give a reason for the hope. It's great that you have the hope, it's great that you have the faith in God, the faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the faith in the Word of God. It's great. It's great that you believe in heaven and hell, nothing can shake that. Wonderful, but there are people out there who don't have that faith, who are struggling.
They're one question away from receiving Christ.
So. It's n it may be for you, but it may be more for somebody else. I I wish I could say that Doubts are the only things that keep people from coming to God. I don't think that's true. I don't think that ultimately these people are not coming to Christ because they have questions.
At the end of the day, it's really a matter of the will. Are you willing to Give your life to Jesus Christ? Are you willing to submit yourself to the living, true, triune God? Are you willing to say, not my will, but God's will be done? I think you're right.
I think you're right on that. I think a lot of times we exclude our own will because it has to be just belief. You know, if I, if I, we take the will out of the equation, like I can't do it if I don't fully mean it, if I don't really believe it. Yeah. We take a lot of the determination and the will of, I guess, because we think that makes it work or something.
Well, that goes back, I think, to feeling. Yeah, I don't feel it. I don't feel it enough. Like, I'm convicted enough. I don't feel like I believe this enough.
I got to make sure that I feel it enough. But facts should go first and then your feelings follow. Right. You need to, you need to lean into what you know to be true and then, you know, allow your feelings to catch up, but don't be dictated by your feelings. I definitely felt that like as a 15-year-old, I knew nothing about it.
I had heard the gospel presented to me because I'd grown up in the South, but I was under the impression that it's like, if I choose to believe Christ, but I don't, I do it just because I'm afraid to go to hell or I do it for. For the wrong reason, then it's not going to count. And so I had taken the will out completely and be like, I have to get it right first. And then and then accepts. And I wonder if that's how other people feel, or if that's what keeps them from.
I think a big segment feels that way. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. But I think if we educate ourselves and in our messages, as a pastor, one of the things I try to do is apologetics in my preaching.
So, yes, I want to encourage people, I want to rebuke people. Again, With grace. I want to correct them. I want to instruct them in righteousness. Going by 2 Timothy 3:16.
But at the same time, I'm also trying to give them certain tools. certain information Certain, if you want to use an analogy of violence, a bulletproof vest.
So when the fiery darts come against them, they'll be able to withstand it. Right. And so In every message, I try to give something that people will go, wow, didn't know that.
Now, it does make sense. That Doctor Shah just shared that information about this archaeological discovery or he just um explained the meaning of that name or that word. Like r we've been going through the book of Job, okay.
So Because recently this professor Who has taken great pride. And he says that. It's like, I don't take pride in that, but he does. Yeah, of course. He does.
He's capitalized on it. Yes, he's capitalized on it. He's made himself very wealthy about it. And so. You know, he comes across like, I'm just a.
A seeker. I'm just seeking the truth. And seeking the truth has brought me to agnosticism, to atheism.
Now, I really don't know where he stands. Is he agnostic? Is he atheist? I don't know. But at one time, he went from agnosticism to atheism.
And so You know, you have a person like that. who says and does those kind of things. And so He retired, and all of a sudden, you had all these comments about how much he had. helped These individuals, individuals were commenting. and helping them leave Christianity.
To walk away from the faith. To one person even said, Thank you for helping me form my proud atheism. Wow. Ugh.
So that was rough. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear that.
Well, yeah, it's sad. You know what I mean? Like you expect something like that to anger you, but it really just is depressing. It's impressing to see where people are. Many of the people even claim that they were.
church going Bible believing people. and listening to him or following his work or getting his New York Times bestseller book or signing up for his courses, the Great Courses series, really liberated them or help them make sense of the pain in this world. You know what's funny though? I think you're exactly right. The people, I know a few people who have deconstructed quote unquote from Christianity, and they talk about how much it's liberated them, but that's the only thing they talk about.
They're not free. They don't talk about their Thanksgiving. They don't talk about what video games they like or what movies they like. The only thing they're ever focused on is their past religious life.
Well, how much freedom and how happy and joyful and purposeful can your life be when you're like, thank goodness, now I believe in nothing. Yeah. And that's why I'm what a relief that nothing has meaning now. Yeah, and the only thing that I ever talk about, the only thing I ever can try to identify with people is my belief in nothingness. It's like I'm a nothing person.
That doesn't make any sense. And so of course you're unhappy. Of course you keep fixating on the religion that you left because even if it's the religion that you left, it was something. It was a bright spot in your life at that time. It was a foundation to stand on.
Right, of course.
Well, my heart really goes out to another group that is, it's part of the group, but it's a group of those who grew up in church and they went off to college and they went off to the university and that's where they met this Winsome professor. And because they were facing some pain or some struggle in their life, it may be an emotional struggle. It may be a relational struggle. It may be a financial, physical struggle, mental health, whatever. That these kinds of people, not just this one professor, but these kinds of people come into a person's life when they're most vulnerable.
And And pretends to alleviate their pain. gives them Something, some Candy stick. That makes them feel like Oh. I feel better. All of a sudden I feel better.
Because mom and daddy's faith and grandma's church and my home church ba back in in my little town or whatever. Man, I was I was always under this struggle of of guilt and shame and and self-doubt and and just I feel Well just like we talked about the first character energy or the main character energy. I feel like I'm in control of my life. I can decide how I want to be happy. I don't have to subject myself to some some laws and some commandments and some restrictions that this this This tradition that I grew up in.
made me do I am free now. I can I can just Live. Yeah. And they begin to go down that path. And unfortunately, when you go down that path, you have a lot of people who will come around and just pat you on the back and tell you, wow, wow, you're my hero.
I follow you. You're so beautiful. You're so awesome. You're so handsome. You're so brave.
You're so brave. And and you know, you inspire me.
Well, previously, you inspired nobody. Previously, you should have gone to church more. Did you read your Bible today? Have you been praying for that problem? You know, God does not want that for you.
You know, God has told us no in His word about that. Are you seeking God's will for you? Oh, all of a sudden you're like, You are Awesome. Oh, my gosh You're be you're you're just an amazing person So it's immense in their minds this was the right decision. This is the right decision.
Yeah. So These professors or these people who dismantle and deconstruct The faith of young people and people of all ages, for that matter, are a big part, but not the only part. Do you feel? Because a lot of times we are not shy about saying, hey, the church is culpable, the church should have done more on this. Do you feel academia had any role to play in this?
Like, could this have been prevented or lessened, or do you think this was inevitable, that this would happen in academia specifically? I would say this. to everybody out there don't think that it's not going to happen to you Don't think.
So never fall into The the the the lie that That you're good. It's good. No, don't do that. Just be aware. learn from others.
And and I heard those kind of stories for other people and I thought oh not not definitely not Not me, it's not going to happen to me, yeah. And then, when you, when I went through struggles, of course, it happens, you doubt. And so Anyways, I don't know if I answered your question. No, no, no, yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely going to happen. I didn't know if there was, if this is par for the course in academia.
You know what I'm saying? Like, there's lots of issues where it's like the church did not step up. The church did not do what it was supposed to do. And therefore, because we were silent, this happened. I wonder sometimes if because I 'cause academia is a a foreign world to me.
Right. Or h like higher education, universities, stuff like that. Do they have the same moral obligations, do you do you think, as the church to maintain biblical like like biblical authority? is because for a long time, for a long time, I don't know how many years, I would say a couple of hundred years, the wrong people are sitting in charge of academia. all in the quest for truth.
And of course, yes, they can definitely bring up things like, well, the church messed up, or the church did some wrong, or this and that and the other. They will bring up like crusades and slavery and the subjugation of women and those kinds of things. They'll bring those things up and say, look, this is what your truth does.
So do you tell are you telling us that we need to follow This construct, this whole idea? No, we're going to go search for truth. Yeah, the real truth. And so I don't know. I think I might have found a better way to phrase it.
It seems like. There's the there's the unspoken standard of like Well, of course that's what university professors are going to do because that's... That's how secular universities and secular schools are. Does that sentiment need to be the default? Does it say something about us that we think that that's the standard?
Of course, universities are going to try to deconstruct Christianity because, quote unquote, that's what they do. Right. Like, is it a, does it say something about us as a society that we've gotten to that point? Yeah, we have accepted. I think we need what I was trying to say is we need to work towards.
the right people being in authority. You know, the right people on these boards, people who are not just naive or don't care about knowledge. Of course, I care about knowledge. Uh of course I care about uh scientific investigations and archaeological discoveries and whatever else, you know, more research in grammar and liter uh and literature and all that. I mean, of course, 100%.
But at the same time, if I'm already stepping into this with a bias against faith or against Christianity, because of some hurt or because of some some Some agenda. then I am no longer An unbiased Searcher for truth, I'm already biased against that truth. I think that's where your background and your heart comes into play, Dr. Shaw, as sort of like the. I guess the template of a pastor and a scholar, because people can walk in both worlds, but it's rare that somebody walks in both.
And having the mind of a scholar and being able to operate in those academic circles and being a voice in academia, but having the heart of a pastor and saying, no, this is what's going to help people spiritually. This is what's going to be a comfort to people. This is what's going to build their trust in God's word. I think that. companion background that you have of being a both a pastor and a scholar, I think is what's needed for people who are both in academia and in the pulpit.
I mean, we need people behind the pulpit who are scholars, and we need people in the Room studying manuscripts that are also pastors. 100% agree. And I'm not the only one. I mean, there are a lot of people like that today. I wouldn't say a lot.
There are many who are like that today. Or should I say some who are like that. And that's okay. You can use the works of other scholars or other people who are doing this right. But there was a time when that was the way it was.
And unfortunately, we lost that balance.
So, either you're an academic who is this stalwart, this, this, um, This searcher of truth, or you are a pastor who just kind of naively believes whatever. Just to comfort the masses. Do you think we'll see a renaissance of scholar pastors? I think so. I think in the past decade or so, different Different people have written on this, and there have been the scholar pastors.
Who have um yeah you know, come more and more to the So I'm hoping. that that trend will continue. America Leaning on the Bible as its authority. Like, it seems like at one point in American history, it's like, yeah, we people did not, not every single person was a born-again Christian, and not every single person followed the Bible, but there was a. National understanding that this is where we're coming from.
This is what we're built on. And because of that, the trajectory of the nation is onward and upward. Even if we fail, even if we fall short, this is what we're built on and this is what we generally accept to be true. And now that's not the case generally. But do you think we'll see a renaissance of that coming back?
I think so. I think Recently, and that was in the past year, there have been a lot of changes made that are very positive, a lot of revivals. I mean, think about the whole Charlie Kirk situation that happened, a horrible murder. But many young people turn towards God. I don't know where things are right now.
A couple of months later, some of that enthusiasm may have waned a little bit, but I don't think it's gone. I think it's still growing and glowing.
So Yeah. I think I believe our best days are ahead. I truly believe that. Yeah. Amen.
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We're going to be featured leaders on TBN. Wow. We're still on Prey.com. We're so grateful for all of our donors on Prey, all of the people who are subscribing monthly, subscribing to the email list. Make sure you hop on and make sure that you follow Dr.
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Of course, that's going to be happening in Nashville, Tennessee. We hope to hear all of you guys and see all you guys there at the conference. If you see Eric Table, come up and say hello. We might be doing a show. Maybe we'll give you a ministry or something a shout out, but definitely come see us at NRB.
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