Every Christian wants to influence the larger conversation, but influence starts by being in the room. That's why attending conferences like ETS and SBL are so important, because the conversation isn't going to come to us. We're going to talk about that right now coming up on the Clear Vitation. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We are so glad you're here joining us for our conversation today. We had a great talk yesterday.
We're going to continue it today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, we were talking a lot about conferences yesterday, why we attend these biblical conferences like ETS and SBL and kind of how they're structured, what role they play. But, you know, we're talking about the importance of just going and being there and being in the conversation.
And I don't want to jump too ahead because I know we're going to read our ads and remind our listeners of some stuff. But something you said to me years ago that has stuck with me, I think for almost a decade now is that. To be in the conversation, you have to go to it. You know what I mean? And I think it's this main character syndrome that a lot of us have, and maybe we'll talk about that later on this week, too.
But a lot of us feel like I'm here to change the world. God has put me here, and He's going to bring all of these people to me that I might opportunities will just start knocking. Right. Because that's what God has in store for me. You told me, you know, no, you have the conversation's over there.
You have to go and. Almost insert yourself. Absolutely. I learned that a long time ago. Not that I like it very much, but that's just how the world works.
So if there's something happening in your community, and there are people who are gathered who are talking about. The change, or the leadership is coming together, and you're not attending those council meetings with the city council or your county commissioners' meeting. That's where you should be so you can listen and hear what's happening firsthand. And then, when you are educated enough, you can make a response or you can put in your two cents.
So, also in the biblical world or the theological world, there's a conversation happening. It happens in conferences like the ETS, which is Evangelical Theological Society, or SBL, which is Society of Biblical Literature. This is where issues are being discussed. And there are times where I have come across books that people have written. I mean They put a lot of work in it.
I don't doubt that for a moment. They love their work and they're proud of their work, and I'm glad to see that. But when I read it, or at least read the summary. I'm like. Oh man.
Compared to a work done forty years ago. This is nothing. Means you In your mind, thought this is a great work deserving to be published. And people have sent me things. But it never got peer reviewed.
It was never read by other people in the field.
Now you also need to have a PhD or a theological degree to be a full member, but you can still attend some of these meetings not being a PhD.
Okay. You can still do that. You just don't have voting rights. Could you c what if you're not in academia at all? Could I go?
Can I attend? Yeah, you can enter ATS as just an associate member. Just a person, yeah. You don't even have to be a student. You can be an associate member and go attend.
Yeah. Just can't vote, which is fine. You don't care to vote. Yeah, what am I going to vote for? You're just kind of inserting yourself.
Like we were talking about inserting yourself and being in that world as you're working on pursuing higher education and pursuing full membership. You can be adjacent to the conversation. That way you're ready to step in when that opportunity presents. That's right. Do you think there's a lot of times where Christians and pastors are like, you know, I don't care nothing about that.
I'm just going to preach the word of Jesus. And I know that in God's timing, all these opportunities are going to come to my door. Because a lot of times I think we'll do this thing where it's like, yeah, I'm just going to preach Jesus. I'm just going to focus on this. But I still have my ambition.
I still do have, and not that that's a bad thing. It's like, I still want to impact the world. I still want to make my voice heard for the message of Jesus Christ. But I don't want to play the game. I don't want to play by anybody else's rules.
And I understand to some degree, you know, you get frustrated waiting for somebody to peer review and give their endorsement to it. But that's just how things work. If you want it to be a work that is respected and endorsed by others, then you definitely need to make sure you are where the conversation is happening and you are. engaging with people, not Hundred years ago. Yeah.
If you write a work on resurrection among uh you know false ideas of resurrection in Ancient Near East.
Okay, good work. But back in. The late 1800s, when comparative religions was a big thing, they did all that. Already been done. Yeah, and some of this has been discredited.
Some of that, I think, still stands. It's not new work. But in your mind, you're thinking it's new work because you went and found some books on archive and decided to put this stuff together. It's not good. You need to join the conversation that's already in progress.
That's right. And you know, here on the Clear Read Today Show, our heart is that we would join the conversation already in progress in the broadcasting world, especially Christian media, Christian broadcasting. And we do that through listeners just like you, through your support. We're grateful to all of our giving partners. We count you as part of our team as we are reaching the nations with the gospel of Jesus.
And so we want to encourage you: if you haven't done so already, and if the Clear Read Today Show has been a blessing to you and to your life, your ministry, consider giving and supporting us as we seek to make the gospel available to as many people as our airwaves can reach. Yes. You can do that by visiting Abadanshah.com forward slash give. And for a gift of any amount, we want to send you a special something in the mail just to say thank you for being a part of the Clear Veed Today Show family. That's right.
We also want to remind you guys that this phone number that 252-582-5028, we put it in the description, but it is always open. If you ever have any questions that you want to ask Dr. Shah or any topics or even just someone to reach out to, someone to pray for you. And more than anything, we just love hearing from you, your questions, your suggested topics. your stories, maybe your experience at ETS or different conferences that we're going to talk about today.
So just always make sure that you're talking to us and letting us know your story, 252-582-5028. Because Dr. Shah, there is a conversation happening. And so many times we leave our own selves out because we don't want to actually participate on those terms. Yeah, and it requires effort.
Of course, it requires money. There are membership fees both for the ETS and the SBL. I think the SBL is far more than the ETS. It is what it is. And for years, I did not go to the SBL because I felt like, what's the use?
Because I don't agree with their convictions anyways. and I didn't want to skip a Sunday, so I would leave like on a Monday morning, Monday afternoon, get to wherever I was going. Tuesday, Wednesday. Return back Thursday at the most by Friday, depends on where I am. Let's say if I'm in San Diego, leaving Friday afternoon is not an Thursday afternoon, it's not an option because it's too late, the flights are not going to make it here.
So, Friday morning, I would come back. But this time I decided to stick around. And our church is bigger now. There are other people on the staff who are able to preach and teach like you guys.
So I felt like, hey, I can do this. And it's going to benefit our church more by me attending the SBO. And I did it. Do you want to build on that a little bit? Because I think a lot of people listening yesterday, that was sort of where the conversation was leading when we ran out of time.
Why will it benefit the church? You know what I mean? Why will it benefit other pastors and their congregations to visit and attend SBL or ETS? Yeah, so definitely I would say attend ETS. SBL, I think, would be beneficial if you are already stepped into.
have stepped into scholarship. Then definitely will benefit you. But if you're not, then some of those sessions and SBL will be a little bit. How do I say this? Jarring?
Like, like over your head, hard to understand, or just like they're talking weird stuff? A little bit of both. Over your head, in the sense that sometimes they're talking about subjects that are very narrow in the field. But still you can you can understand them. But Jarring in the sense of queer theology or queer and saved and And uh Hindu texts and resurrection, you know, or Buddhism, and I mean, and you're saying like going like so they're reaching out there for yeah, so and that's one reason ETS was founded because SBL, it originally was uh Society of Biblical Literature and Exegesis, and later on, I think in the 70s, it got shortened to Society of Biblical Literature.
But they felt like they had already crossed the lines. When you get into other religions, when you get into values that are no longer traditional biblical values, then Then it's no longer safe for a lot of people. Hence, ETS was started. It's because they felt that SBL had lost its focus. Yeah, definitely.
Gotcha. And it was up in the 70s, if I'm not wrong, where the statement on biblical inerrancy was signed. It originally came from R.C. Sproll, who was the founder of Ligoneer Ministries. He had come up with a statement on inerrancy.
What is inerrancy? And he had done some conferences, I believe, and other people with him. And then later on, that statement is known as the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy that was adopted. It was discussed, debated, and then finally adopted. At Chicago, I believe.
So, how was your first SBL? What were your thoughts? Just like I expected. I mean, you see all kinds of things. Really?
Yeah. Lot, lot, lot more people. Yeah. Almost like. I would say Two to three times more people compared to NRB?
Like I mean, ETS. I know, but I'm saying NRB, like you how many people? NRB, I would say just uh attendance. What is the attendance at an RB? Oh, shoot.
5,000? Probably. Probably. Five to six. Then it's about the size of an R B.
So it's it's a big conference. Gotcha. Okay. Then I would say SBL is the size of an R B.
Okay, wow. That's incredible. And ETS by comparison would be I mean, if I remember the numbers correctly. I want to say the numbers this year was about maybe 2,000 or so.
Okay, so still a respectable conference. Yeah, somebody can check that 2,000 for 2025 ETS attendance. Yeah, we'll see. Not a small conference by any stretch, but smaller certainly than the largest was in San Diego last year, 2024, and this one was the second largest, I believe, in Boston 2025.
So it's so it's growing. It's growing every year. Yeah, I mean, it's yeah. That's fantastic. As a scholar, how do you feel like attendance to ETS and now SBL has?
Benefited you, sharpened your scholastic efforts, and helped you step into and stay in the scholarly world.
So as I mentioned in uh the show yesterday, I began attending The first conference I attended, I actually read a paper, which is a southeast regional. uh ETS in nineteen ninety nine which is Pretty cool, by the way. Like, this thing was the first time you attended a conference, you were brutal. You had a paper. That's a big deal.
And I had people there who came. And some of them were my classmates from my Greek class. Doctor Robinson was there at my first paper. Wow. There was a professor from Lee University in Tennessee was there.
I remember that very clearly. And a couple of other people who were professors from the other nearby colleges, universities, that also came. It was uh it was Quite amazing. And then. I d I think I went back in 2000.
I think the first time I went to a national one, I want to say the 2000 or 2001. I went to the national one. In 2002, again, I'm trying to make sure I'm correct. I read a paper at the National ETS. Wow.
I think it was 2002. It was titled The Trinity in its Interface with Islam. Wow. Okay. You still have that paper?
Oh, yeah. Did you ever publish it? I never published it.
Okay. But I mean, I think it's publishable. Sure. Yeah, why not? But it had nothing to do with my subject.
Have nothing to do with it. Because of nine eleven. Oh, it was tied.
Okay, okay. 9-11 happened. Yeah. And I had. You know, I was taking the doctrine of the Trinity.
in my PhD seminar. And they were assigning topics, and there was a topic there on Trinity and Islam. I was like, ooh. I can do that.
So you were doing that for a class anyway, but then it doubled as an ETS, or you were picking topics f specifically to read a DTS? No, I. I I did that I'm trying to think correctly. I did that paper in 2001. Yeah.
But I read it in 2002. I may be wrong, but I think that's what happened because 9-11 happened. And Uh 2001, of course. And In the middle of that s Seminar I decided to choose the topic of Islam in the Trinity. It was just a Trinity.
If 9-11 hadn't happened, I wouldn't have picked Islam and Trinity. Right, yeah.
So it happened, so I picked it. And then I um presented that Um as a uh um proposed it as a paper topic. In two thousand two spring. and got accepted to read it. In the fall of two thousand two.
Wow. The biggest audience I ever had.
So you could present that paper. How big was it? Your mind? I would say. That particular paper had like 60 to 80 people in that room.
That's pretty good. I was shocked. Yeah. But then again, it was a hot topic at the time. I was going to say, was it well received being topical at the time?
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah.
Very cool. Very well received. Wow. So then you've done more. Of course, you've done some during your time here on the Clearview Today show, you did one on Acts 8:38, the Ethiopian youth.
8:37, yeah. 8:37, yes. And then there was another Ephesians 5:30. Oh, to say something about that Ephesians 5:30, flesh and bones passage. For those of you who don't know, we can turn there right quick if you'd like to.
Yeah. So. Ephesians chapter five and verse thirty. This is a has a variant in there. Where um It says For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones.
Okay. So the big issue is why does it say flesh and of his bones and not flesh and blood? Right. And so I read a whole paper on that and why it should be flesh and of his bones because in Ephesians 5:30, it says, For we are members of his body. And that's it.
That's where it stops. There's nothing else there. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. What happened to of his flesh and of his bones? It's not there.
In what it's not there? In the Greek? Or in the... In the... Critical text, which is Nestle Island and UBS.
There is no of his flesh and of his bones. It's not there. They took it out. The critical text doesn't have it. The reason eclectic text does not have it.
Which is behind most of our translations? Most of our translations, like the NIV, NASB, ESV. CSB, they do not have of his flesh and of his bones. The Byzantine text. Has of his flesh and of his bones.
Which is why, if you read the New King James Version, it's there. Or King James, you'll see.
Okay, okay. So I read a paper. saying that this should be in there. And I gave a lot of reasons in explaining that why they should be in there.
Now here's something quite amazing. I arrived at ETS on Monday. Mm-hmm. All right. And got ready.
And it was very different for me because I didn't have a paper in there. Not because I didn't propose. I did propose a paper. It didn't get accepted because it did not line up with the topic.
So I'm going to propose it next year.
So no worries on that for me.
So I'm like, okay, no worries. I can work on other things, and I'm doing a lot of other works right now, anyways.
So. In a way, God knew exactly I didn't need another paper right now.
So I get to ETS and um I walk into my The first session, which was a pa uh, this was about the Greek New Testament. That is being produced at New Orleans's. Center for The New Testament text. And Dr. Bill Will, Bill Warren, Elijah Hickson, and several others are part of this project.
And it's going to be available. To Bible translators all over the world. It'll be open source that people can just get and use it. Right. They can also give feedback and tell them why This reading and not that reading should be accepted and the editors will then decide whether or not to accept that and incorporate that into the text.
On and on. I went to this session because I was like, yeah, that's the only New Testament. Texturical stuff that I want to go here.
So I walked in there. As I walk in, My good friend Elijah Hickson kind of w comes up to me. And he's like, hey, I have a I thought he was just Glad to see me. Hey, how are you? You didn't know something was brewing under the surface.
So he walks up to me, or kind of almost like he dashes to me. And he's like, hey. I want to mention your name. In the paper, he said, Okay, if I say you're Byzantine priority, is that okay? I was like, Oh.
He's like, well, I wouldn't do it if you don't want me to. I was like. No, no, no, that's fine, that's fine. He said, I I'm I'm gonna tell them that I am proposing of his flesh and of his bones based on your paper.
Okay. So I was like Oh. Wow. Yeah. So so in that case, yeah, please tell them.
So I'm like.
Okay, in that case, I mean, I I mean, who am I to uh to to argue with you on that.
So I I'm gonna throw it up there in a second, it's gonna come up.
So I'm like, okay, yeah.
So they uh he gets up there and talks about it, review process, why differences matter. He's so he got get up there and he he mentioned it. Ephesians 5.30 needs discussion. Abadan Shah's twenty twenty three TCS paper made me think the Byzantine reading needs to be considered. Wow.
But you changed his mind. Yeah. Now, I don't know for sure if they will incorporate that into the text, but I think they did, if I'm not wrong. I think they did. What year did he do this?
Was this last year, 2024? Um I did the paper in 2023. Right. So, when did he present? Was this?
Oh, it's right here. Created November the 16th, 2023. And um And the other editor said, based on internal evidence, I could go either way on this one, homeoteliuton could explain the omission. In the end, though, the earliest evidence supports the omission and the primary evidence for the expansion of the detect, which could be more likely to have additions including the text.
So, this guy did not agree with it. Bill Warren said the variance warrants more attention since homeotyleuton, which is like. Your eye skips over the end letter. See, tilos is end, homeo is same, so same ending. Can be the cause of the shorter text.
But a large number of early manuscripts as well as church fathers and early virginal support tilt the decision in favor of the shorter text. More discussion is needed here, most likely. Right. So, guess what? They are right now still discussing.
Still discussing whether I think they're going to end up including of his flesh and of his bones in the text. In the text. That's incredible. So, wow. Let me rephrase my question.
When was this photo taken? When did he give this talk? When did this was on last Tuesday?
Okay, so the 2025 ETS, he did this. Yeah, that's the 2025 ETS. Long story short, your paper on Ephesians 530. From 2023. 2023.
In. In San Antonio, could most likely influence it is influencing scholastic efforts. But it could lead to the reasoned eclectic text, including of his flesh and blood. The one that's coming from New Orleans, not the overall. I mean, that is a very important reason Eclectic.
Gotcha. Got you. That's excellent. Wow. That's really cool.
That's incredible. And that's why, this is a long story even shorter. That's why attending these conferences matter. Because you end up influencing the text itself. I mean, there's.
I didn't expect that. And I was shocked because I walked in there. It's like my paper didn't get it accepted, which is fine because I was super busy this fall. I mean, super busy. What did you propose?
What paper did you propose? Or do you want to save it until next time? No, I don't mind telling you. I proposed a paper, which honestly, I didn't feel very strong about. It was about, had to do with the Nicene Creed.
Okay. You know, I can find it while y'all are discussing a few other things.
Well, I just think it's, yeah, it's one of those things, like we were talking about, is like when you play the game, you end up winning way more than when you don't play the game. Right. And I think it's cool that a lot of times. We do these things where we go and we want to be part of the discussion, but I want to be part of the discussion right now and on my term. Right.
And I think a lot of time Christian rock stars start to emerge, and they do it in music, they do it in church ministry, and they also do it in scholarship. And so you have these flash in the pan sort of. Uh, really, really popular books and articles and movies, or movies, and songs, well, sometimes movies, but then they don't make the lasting impact like this is about to. Right. This is, this will become part of a Bible translation.
Yeah. I mean, if you want to go further, which Dr. Charlie, you said before, if you want to go further, you go slower. Like, it's not a flash in the pan type thing. It's not a sudden success.
It's persistently showing up for the conversation, being there, and putting in the work so that when the time comes, you step into that opportunity that God has been creating for you the entire time. You know, I felt that at NRB the first year when I went to NRB, it was just us attending. And I mean, we did a couple of shows on the showroom floor, but other than that, it was just us attending and learning things. And I was like, man, we didn't really make up a big splash, but there's always next year. And then we went next year.
And of course, we did a couple of guest spots on some shows. And we did some really, really great interviews with heroes of mine and heroes of Dr. Shah's. Butch Hartman was there. Bill Federer was there.
We did shows with them. But it wasn't like the huge splash that you want. And it takes that wisdom that, you know, Dr. Dr. Shaw reminded me: like, hey, guys, this is our second year.
You know, there's we've I've and you told me you've I've been going to ETS for what 10, 15 years, and only now are things really starting to start to pick up speed. I mean, honestly, over 20 years. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, if I went to the first one in 1999, even though it was a Southeast regional. This is 2025.
So do the math. How many years has it been? 26 years. This year was the anniversary of the Nicene. Gotcha, gotcha.
So I was like, nah. I got you. Yeah. It won't hold the same weight. 325 is when the Nicene.
The Council of Nicaea was held, and this is 2025. Wow. So, yeah. As we wrap the discussion today, talking about ETS, talking about SBL, thinking from a pastoral perspective, what benefit do these conferences, ETS especially, do they hold for a pastor and for the pastor's congregation? I would say don't discount.
These counts, these conferences. Go to them. Go there, learn, study. Don't immediately think you have a fresh new idea that really needs to be out there on the stage. No, just go and just kind of figure things out.
Learn to, the subject that you're drawn to, let's say is Joanine literature, which is the Gospel of John, letters of John. Revelation, go attend some of those sessions and listen to these scholars and see How they approach this subject. If you're more in the Old Testament, attend some of those sessions. In Old Testament literature or Hebrew or Septuagint, and just listen to these scholars and see what they're talking about. And then you will pick up ideas, you will pick up.
book suggestions. Go get 'em. There are book sales that go on too, both at ETS and SBL, and sometimes you can find these books at a very discounted price. Go find those books, read them, learn them. Maybe God may lead you as a pastor to go get some higher education.
Go do that. If God doesn't lead you, it doesn't mean you're a failure. No, that's fine. You can still make an impact. In what God has given to you.
So then step up and say, you know, I may not be able to present a paper at ETS or SPL, but I can write an article in my local newspaper. Or I can start a blog where I can discuss these issues. Or, I can preach a sermon series on this and see if I can convert this into a book. If you don't Push yourself if you don't Challenge yourself. Then you will just stay where you are and feel like neglected, forgotten, and others are better than you.
Don't do that. You know, there's an old statement, I forgot who said it. Um You know, there's one person who hesitates. Another person steps forward, makes mistakes, and gets better and better. Don't be the person who hesitates, hesitates by not going to these conferences, hesitates by not reading more, hesitates by not trying to get more education, hesitates by not trying to publish.
But there's another person who is not as good. And they make mistakes. But with each mistake, they get better and better and better. Guys, make sure you join us next time, same time, same place. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show.
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So we're going to let you know more details about that. Also, NRB 2026, it's coming, Nashville, Tennessee. We want to see you guys there. Even if you don't have a show yet, just like Dr. Shah said, come.
It's a great, great time. And if you're wanting to get into Christian media, Christian broadcasting, Christian writing, Christian Publishing. All of it is going to be at NRB. Plus, we're going to be there. Dr.
Abadan Shah is going to be there as part of Pray, part of the Truth Network, part of the Clearview Today Show. It's going to be a great time. Come see us. Also, one last thing: Apologetics Conference here at Clearview Church, March 28th. It's going to be a great, great time.
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