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So stay hydrated, stay healthy, and without further ado, let's start the show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and congrats, you have made it to the weekend.
It's so good to see you here in the Clearview Today studio. But the week is not over yet. We got some great conversations, especially today. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Before we do any of that, we want to welcome our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament Technical Criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, happy Friday, my friend. Happy Friday, and happy. Reformation Day.
Happy Reformation Day. Happy Reformation Day. I was going to say, you know, today is October 31st. All over America, kids are going to be dressing up. They're going to be getting some candy, rotting their teeth out their head, but every single year there's another holiday that just flies right under the radar that does not get.
Recognition it deserves, and that's Reformation Day. That's what we're talking about today. That's right. I'm excited about that conversation. But before we talk about that, I do want to remind you guys that we have a brand new EP from Clearview Worship that is coming out this Sunday.
It's just a couple of days away, November the 2nd. It's called Cafe Sessions Volume 1, and it's going to be available anywhere that digital music is sold or distributed.
So, of course, I'm talking iTunes, I'm talking Spotify, I'm talking Amazon music, I'm talking Apple Music, all of that good stuff. That's right. We're excited about that. It's a wonderful album. I mean, it's worship music is something that has my heart, and I know that's the case for many people, but especially acoustic worship.
There's something special about just sort of like a really bare bones, just kind of authentic worship environment.
So, Dr. Shah, we have, it's funny that this come in on Reformation Sunday because we, or on Reformation Day, I should say, because we had someone write in. And this actually was written in a while back. And I was saving it because I knew that we were going to fall, Reformation Day was going to fall on this week.
So I was saving it. This is from Francis P. From Chicago, Illinois. Do you want to read it? Sure.
Francis says, Hey, Dr. Shaw, I've really been enjoying this series on Romans. We have two. I've been wanting to write in for a while. I actually grew up Catholic.
My family went to Mass every Sunday, and I went through all the sacraments. I'm thankful for the foundation it gave me, but as I got older and started reading the Bible for myself, God eventually led me to a Protestant church. Amen. It didn't take long before I discovered the gospel in a new light that changed everything for me. That's why I've always had a deep appreciation for the Reformation and what it stood for.
It gave people access to Scripture and emphasized salvation by grace through faith. But I do have a question: where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line on being reformed? I know you typically say you're not reformed, but you would, I assume, agree that the Reformation was essential for shaping our faith. When it comes to theology, how do you decide which doctrines from the Reformers to hold on to and which ones to set aside?
And if the Reformation had such a powerful impact on how we understand the gospel, why wouldn't you personally refer to yourself as Reformed? Hmm. Great, great question.
So there is a difference between being a product or child of the The Protestant Reformation, and then to hold on to the Reformed tradition. There's a difference there, there's a distinction there. And that's where people either go all in or all out. And I don't think they need to. Because in today's show, and maybe it'll take us two shows to really clarify this, that there are certain areas where you can.
Agree to disagree, Because even some of the reformers were not totally united on those issues. And so Yes, we're all products of the Protestant Reformation, unless you are coming from a Roman Catholic Church or you're coming from an Eastern Orthodox church. You are a product of the Protestant Reformation, but you don't have to necessarily hold to some of the tenets of the Reformed tradition. Right.
Now, Dr. Shaw, you said agree to disagree. That's not a concept that I'm familiar with. If somebody disagrees with me, it automatically makes them wrong and bad. Especially not with Christians in this day.
Especially not Reform. No, I don't want to say that.
So I want to do this. Before we dive into it, Dr. Shah, our listenership is, I was overwhelmingly Christian and knows exactly what we're talking about. They know what Martin Luther did. They know what the Reformation is.
But let's say someone just got saved this year. Right.
I've never heard of any of this stuff. What are we talking about reformed? What is the Reformation?
So, Reformation, you're going, at least let's talk about the Reformation Day. For those of you who are not familiar with this, or maybe you just need to brush up, right? Probably never heard of it. True, man.
So they're like, oh, yes, Reformation Day. Yeah, I knew about it. I knew about it. I want to make sure you know what you did. That's right.
They're like, this guy knows it.
So we're going back to 1517, October 31st, when Martin Luther nailed what we know as those 95 theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg. And this was not as monumental and earth-shattering as we. look at it today. But in those days, it was something that people did by posting to the door. And there are people who disagree on that.
They say, no, this was a big thing. But I think it was. Just putting it out there to say, hey. Let's debate on this. Like at the time, it probably went without much ceremony.
I would say it was like a notice board.
So you put it up there, you nail that paper to the door, but it caused quite a stir. Him nailing it to the door wasn't necessarily a big deal, but it was the contents of those 95 theses. Right.
Right.
That people did not anticipate would take the turn that it did. Right.
Now, the Reformation, in some sense, was already in the making for several hundred years. Here we're talking about 1517. Several hundred years.
So going back to the time, let's say in England. We're talking about Wycliffe. Wycliffe you know, he's referred to as the first translator of the Bible into English. That was Earth shattering? because the Bible was in Latin.
Right.
So when we're talking about the Bible in English, so going back in time, you have people who were known as the Britons. They had their language, followed by the Anglo Saxons that came in. This is about the seventh, eighth century. Followed by the Vikings that came in. They didn't impact the language as much as they did bring in their culture and very quickly became part of that English landscape.
Uh you know different peoples came in and yet there was something English about the place, about the people. Then came the Normans.
Now you're kind of getting into the eleventh century. The Normans came, which were who were the cousins of the Vikings, who went south and made their way to the north by the eleventh century. And so they brought their free French. Into English.
So now you had this language which had. Anglo-Saxon elements and a little bit of Britonic elements and I'm not sure how much Viking Language Scandinavian came in there, but definitely the Norman element in there. This is English now.
Okay. We joke about English being sort of like a hodgepodge of various languages. I mean, people say that today, kind of, haha, English is the hardest language to learn. But when you hear about its development like that, it really does make sense. It is sort of like borrowing bits and pieces from other languages.
Yeah, you learned Hindi, Marathi, and English at the same time as a kid. Was English harder? For you? Or is it like because you did it as a kid, it wasn't that hard? Spoke the king's English.
You know, he knew English very well. His. Father was educated very well. His uncles, some of them, went to England and they, I think, went to some top-notch universities in India and then went. Moved to England.
So English was part of their vocabulary, even though they were Muslims. Right.
But back in those times, like in England, when you're talking about the Bible wasn't written in English.
So were common people just listening to priests read it in Latin? Yes.
Now, don't misunderstand. There were. There's few things here and there could be translated into Anglo-Saxon, like the dream of the rude, or um uh Venerable beads. I'm trying to think back and I'm trying to get my notes right in my head because we went further than I wanted to go. uh the ecclesiastical history of the English speaking people.
So these kind of things were translated and certain portions were translated, but at the entire Bible was not until Wycliffe embarked on this project to translate the the Latin entire Bible into English And that English didn't sound like the English we know today. Right.
I mean, it was English, don't get me wrong, but this would what you would call Middle English. Prior to that would be Old English, Middle English, Geoffrey Chaucer's period, and all that. And then we get into the Elizabethan English, Modern English, to what we have today. Right, right. But when Wycliffe did what he did, that was, I would say, cataclysmic.
I mean, it cost him his life, right?
So you think that was sort of the birth of the Reformation that Martin Luther would spring into action? Not just him, not just Wycliffe and the Lawlords. Lawlards were his followers, but you also had the Hussites, John Huss' followers in Bohemia. Then you had the Waldensians, who are more in kind of like Italy side of things, Swiss. mountains.
Uh and these people We're following their code in Tennibrooks Lux in Darkness Light.
So these were, I would say, the pre reformers. the precursors to what Martin Luther eventually did. And that's like several hundred years prior to Luther's nailing those ninety-five theses on The Doran Wittenberg.
So, this was a momentous thing, but there were tides that were changing in the years that were leading up to Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses. What did Martin Luther's nailing of the 95 Theses, why did that? Why is that what we go back to? Why is it that moment in particular? Because for Christians, definitely, that is.
That is important. That matters. There were political reformations happening, there were socio-economic reformations. also taking place all because of the Renaissance. Right?
Renaissance with with the falling of Constantinople or In Istanbul, now a lot of people fled to Florence and they brought their knowledge with them. They brought Ancient wisdom, and what I mean by that is writings, the classical writings. They brought it to the East, to Florence, Italy. And it really rejuvenated and and I would say revived people from a slumber and they were looking at the world going, wow, didn't know this could be all this.
Now don't don't misunderstand, people traveled even back then. But it's quite different when the world comes to your hometown. I can go places, enjoy it, and come and tell you. But then if the museum Has a special display, then everybody can go see it. That's what.
Renaissance did. It brought all those things into Europe. And The Renaissance was the foundation that later on led to the. Reformation.
So, the Reformation really, how did the Catholic Church feel about all this like Renaissance and all this stuff? Were they opposed to it? Were they trying to ingratiate it into their culture? I don't think they anticipated it would. take the turn that it did.
Okay. it really became clear from I would say the fifteen hundreds when the Greek New Testament was being put together. And again. The Catholic Church was doing that too. The Complutensian polyglot, right?
Putting all these different editions together, Greek being one of them. But then Uh Erasmus Who who jumped ahead and put the Greek New Testament together, Right. And in 1509 or something like that, I believe, and published it before even the Complutencine Polyglot could be published, that was just revolutionary. Would you say the Renaissance is Christian at its core? I don't know if I would say that, but I think it definitely was used by God.
To radically change and reform the church?
Well that's that's sort of what I the reason I ask is because, you know, the the you've got this Christian establishment, which is the church, the capital C church, and then the Renaissance comes in, which is bolstering Christianity. But it's a threat to the church's authority and leads to Martin Luther, who is also a Christian. But who is in some ways against the church. And so I guess how objectively off course was the Capital C Church at this time. When I say the church, I mean like the Catholic Church.
I mean, it was very much so. The late medieval. Catholic Church had really degenerated.
Now, don't misunderstand. When you really study history, especially we have been impacted by the history from England.
So when you study the history, you see that they were trying to reform. And a lot of those reformations, or reforming, I should say, because reformation immediately we think about the Protestant Reformation from the 16th century.
So let's just say a lot of the reforming was happening through monastic orders, Benedicts. monastic orders and several others, they try to reform the church. take it back to a time of uh austerity and purity And and devotion. They tried. I mean, they that that's what was happening.
Was there a genesis to that? Like was there something that sparked those monastic orders into action? Or was that just sort of something that was kind of an ongoing thing? No, yeah, they were sick and tired of um seeing papal abuses Right? They were sick and tired of seeing Um corruption among the priests.
There were Um just hard of uh How the people were getting disillusioned. If you study British history or English history, you see that they're searching. Yeah. I would imagine it's difficult for monks who live very isolated and solitary lives to get public support. For all these reforms that they're trying to do.
Is that why it took until Martin Luther did what he did for things to root? No, I don't think so. I think they were.
Some of these um these monastic reforms We're um we're we're were very impactful.
Some of the practices in the church. But then the tradition that was built and kicked on for centuries That may have started with scripture, may not have, but it was not only on par with scripture, but it superseded scripture.
So Tradition became far more important Than the word of God. And average people, even though they Could not understand What the priest was doing up there, the hocus pocus that was happening, right? Yeah. Up in the front, and there's a screen there. You're on this side, you cannot go on the other side.
I mean, all kinds of weird stuff. The hierarchy between the priest and the layman, the priest and the common people. Uh Most of the time, people went along with it, but then it got to a place where even they were getting disillusioned. Why are we doing all this? What is happening?
Is this Christianity? And then there were you know, if you study British history or English history, you see that there were some others who were trying to you know maintain the purity of the church and things like that, like in Wales or in Ireland, the mission that was going towards England to to do some some Evangelism. I mean, a lot was happening. Right.
But people knew something was not right. Yeah. And so there's this push to change it. And so, does it, you know, you see, you have all these monks and these other reformers that you're talking about that are using the Renaissance to sort of bring about this change.
Now, monks, those reforms were happening. You're going back to almost like the 9th century AD. You're talking about maybe the 10th, 11th century, 12th century max.
So This is even before. The Waldensians, maybe the Waldensians. But definitely before Wycliffe and the Hussites. But but all these movements are, I guess, building on the reformers that came before. Or not really.
Like the Huss, like the the Waldensians and the Hussites, they're building on what the monks had done previously. I don't think they were even connecting. I think they they were just on their own.
So there's pockets of reformers throughout history leading up to the re I would say so. I think that's a better way to To say that instead of finding some kind of dependence on each other. Yeah, so it's not like they were necessarily snowballing from one thing into the next. It was just like on their own, popping up, showing that the people in general were primed for. Reformation.
I guess the point you're making is that there were attempts in the past to do what Martin Luther ultimately did. Yeah, the monastic reforms were more in the monasteries. The Waldensians, Wycliffe, Her sites Are more among the people.
So the monasteries, they were just like, We this is what we gonna do. Yeah. They were trying to clean up. I got you. Y'all bet y'all do what y'all need to do.
We're gonna be different. Yeah. But the others that I mentioned, the reformers, Prior to the Lutheran all of them, they are more like trying to get to the lay people.
So there's two different things happening. And they came later, the monastic reforms were earlier.
Okay. Okay, I guess w After all this talk, what can we glean from this? The gleaning is. Whether it is people who are working in the church or people who are work or just common people. When the church has lost its core, people know something is wrong.
Something is missing. We are Off track. If these groups separated by years from each other, centuries, if they on their own were starting to have these pockets of reform, this ideology of like, this isn't right. We need to do something different. We're going to be different, or we're going to influence the people around us to be different.
It shows that when the church veers, that the people are. Duh are they're they're Desiring truth. Yeah, just disconnecting. Discontent whether it's monks or average people on the streets.
Well, I think the thing that's disconcerting for me is how. It's like when you think about when the church veers or when the church loses its way, you think maybe, you know, a generation, a decade or so at most, but this is centuries of corruption, centuries of going worse and worse and worse. And so it makes me think like nowadays in 2025, if we were to say the church has really lost its focus, do you think we're doomed to be this way for centuries until some other big thing happens? Or can we learn from. What's already happened and say, hey, let's not waste two, three hundred years going even further downhill.
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Now, let's get started.
Well, since the Reformation, a lot has changed. No longer are we part of a monolith. Where we think, oh, this is the church, this is how it's done. Um Now because of the Reformation, there are so many denominations, so many splinter groups Good and bad. I mean, there's some negative to it.
I totally agree, but the positives outweigh the negative. Where. If you go back to let's say the twelfth century or even go back to the ninth century, Oh, yeah, the renewal and the reformation so-called is happening in the monasteries. What is that going to do for you? Mm-hmm.
Oh, the The Reformation is happening with the Wycliffe's or the Lollards or the Hussites or the Waldensians, but it's not widespread. It's outside the church. Say the Waldensians, they were persecuted. driven into the hills. Or or the mountains, the Swiss mountains.
Uh how about um The how about Wycliffe? He died, but then they exhumed his body and burned it. Come on, man. He can't even rest in peace. They scattered his ashes in the river.
The church did that for real. Oh, yeah, yeah, because he was a heretic. He can't even rest in peace. Yeah, he was the morning star of the Reformation. That's what they call it.
Wow. And then Hus burned at the stake. And later on. Huss was very influential and In inspiring Luther. Yeah.
Wow. Us was a bohemian. Luther was a German.
So I guess What can we learn from this? I guess, as I mentioned, the church knows, people know that something is wrong, but also we can learn that. The church um Has to clean up. And that happened. That happens from time to time.
Uh would you say it's it's fair to say that the church now has to clean up in a very different way? Like, are we even in any way comparable to the church back then? No, I mean, some of the things that Luther fought against, and maybe we can talk more about what he brought in and uh what what contributions he made and others like say Calvin and Zwingli and and um uh Knox and Cranmer uh So we can talk about that later. But what did he fight against? Papal abuses?
Right.
The whole thing of the donation of Constantine and whether the document was forged and. Lorenzovala, you know, he he he He demonstrated that the document was forged and the church was doing some. Underhanded things. Of course, there were also um um immoral things happening In the priesthood. there was uh this distinction between Priests and common people, money issues.
I mean, so much, so much was happening that was. Like today we would be like shocked. But back then, this was sort of expected, accepted.
Well, there's one, there's one, you know. power like all powerful church. And so today we have like local churches, but if you're part of a convention, you know, you're a group of churches who are doing this thing, but then you have things like the Methodists, where the Methodists are. part of one kind of organization, right?
Well, uh there is a United Methodist Church, but now there is a global Methodist Church, which is more conservative, of course, and trying to reform um their their ranks. And, um, So, yeah, they're trying. I guess, well, I guess that's sort of what I was leading into: do you think there's a possibility that what happened with the church back then could happen again today? Mm-hmm. Mm.
Well, not in the same cataclysmic way that it did back then, because then it was Again, the only thing I can say is Earth shattering because. To stand up against the church, the Roman Catholic Church, was. Huge. Yeah, you could lose your life for that. Yes.
And many did. Yeah. So, maybe not in that way, but I think there is a place for reforming things, but bringing it back to the core. But it's fair to say that that problem, the Reformation, defeated it for good. Like or the problem.
This conversation, this kinds of conversations, these kinds of conversations help us know why Reformation matters. Because that's what I want to talk about next. Is a Because so far we talked about What led to the Reformation, the various movements that were happening in the monasteries versus common people. We talked about the Renaissance impact on the Reformation. We talked about all these things, but I want to talk more specifically.
what did the Reformation do? Because then we can talk about How does it Apply today. What can we do today? And I think for our friend Francis, who wrote in, it may take more than two episodes. Because I think the heart of his question is: well, If you're a child of the Reformation and you're a Christian because of that, why aren't you Reformed?
Might take two or three episodes to get to that. Could be.
So, Francis, is he? You think this is the Pope himself writing in? Yeah, this is him. You can't fool me. You can't fool me.
It is Francis P. Francis P. It's Francis P. Ah, it's a pseudonym. You can't fool me, man.
But it might take a little while. Stick with us because we are going to answer your question. That's right. Guys, make sure you join us next week. Same time, same station.
We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsor for making today's episode possible: LeBlue Ultra Pure Water and Mighty Muscadine. Very grateful. And if you guys are interested in sponsoring the Clearview Today Show, we'd love to talk to you about what that would look like. You can write into us at contact at clearviewtodayshow.com.
Or if you'd like to text us or call us, you can do that at 252-582-5028. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing anywhere you get your podcasting information from: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Prey.com. Make sure you're listening along there. Make sure you're following Dr. Shah as a featured leader on prey.com so you can stay up to date with all of that content.
And you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today?
Well, we definitely announced this yesterday, but it bears repeating. Clearview Today is coming to TBN Plus. That's a huge deal. If you have not already downloaded the TBN Plus app, go on ahead and do it. It's 100% free to make an account, and you can follow a lot of great Christian leaders and speakers and teachers right there.
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And now, by the grace of God, that's going to change.
So thank you for supporting us financially. Thank you for supporting us with your hearts. We love you and we value your listenership. That's right. A couple of things to be on the lookout for.
Like we said, Cafe Sessions Volume 1 is going to be available very, very soon, coming out on Sunday, November the 2nd.
So make sure that you pick that up anywhere you can find digital music. It is a great album. You're going to want to listen to that and you're going to want to listen to it a lot. Make sure you share it with your friends and family. Also, 30 Days of Seeing Christ through the book of Judges is coming out very soon.
Soon as well. This is the next installment in the 30 Days Devotional Series by Dr. Shaw. Book number four. It is book number four, and you're going to be able to see Jesus through the pages and the stories of the judges.
It's going to be a wonderful resource for you and for your loved ones.
So that's going to be available for you in paperback format or e-book very, very, very soon. Make sure you stay tuned for that. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow or we'll see you next week on Clear Edge.
