You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abinan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We've had such a great week here in the studio talking with you guys, but we got one more show before the weekend.
We want to welcome all of you to the conversation. But before we do that, we want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, we got a great conversation for today.
Absolutely, looking forward to it. I'm excited about today's video. Good to see you. Always excited, but Today's question. Oh yeah, today's gonna be a great conversation.
This is something that people have been writing into the show, asking about for a long while. And I said, Dr. Sha, I think this is something that people want to hear. And he said, you know, I'm actually about to preach a sermon on this in just a little bit.
So let's hold off, let me finish my research, we'll preach it, we'll get all our thoughts together. Ladies and gentlemen, today is that day. But before we do anything else, I do wanna update you guys about a couple of things. As you remember, all throughout the month of October, we are having Dr. Shah at 7 a.m.
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So like you can email the contact at clearviewtodayshow.com. Or if you'd like to call or text into the show, 252-582-5028. Speaking of texting into the show. Yeah, we got a check-in message. We have a check-in message for you, Dr.
Shaw. This one doesn't know how they left the name, but it says, Dr. Shaw, I've really struggled with the idea of election for a long time. My pastor has been preaching about it for years that God chooses certain people to be saved, but honestly, it's always been hard for me to accept. It just seems unfair.
If God elects some, then what about everyone else? Do they even have a real chance? I know the Bible says God is loving and just, but this whole idea feels like it doesn't line up with that. I've tried to understand it and even prayed about it, but I still can't shake the feeling that it doesn't seem right. Can you help me make sense of how election fits with God's fairness and love?
So do you want to just kind of, before we even get into it? If someone's listening, they're like, What is election? I don't even know what you're talking about there.
Well, election is this doctrine that has been. propagated over the centuries That um God has picked certain people to go to heaven And With the same tokens, so certain people to go to hell. And some people say, no, no, no, no, it's only about going to heaven. The hell part is not there. But I mean, it's obvious.
If you say some are chosen for heaven, then how about the others? It's like, well, God didn't choose them. They just are, that's just where they're going to go. Right.
So, I mean, that's pretty much. Double predestination.
So that has been a major doctrine, a major debate for centuries, going all the way back to the time of Augustine, who was the Church father who was the bishop of Hippo, and this is North Africa. And he's the one who really Push that doctrine. and uh g gave it a name and a face, and that's why we I have to deal with it today. People have debated this for years. It's been a hot button issue.
People have fallen on both sides. And it's been intensely debated. I mean, people are very passionate about this because it ties into people's eternal destinies. Right.
How do you do people reconcile that by just saying, okay, well, I guess there's no such thing as hell? Like, would they rather give up the fact that God? God doesn't elect people, then give up the idea that Uh, there's an actual hell. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, there are somehow.
Those are strange badfellows, but but in a sense not that strange because If I believe that, then I have to also believe in hell.
So then I would rather give up the idea that hell exists. Then give up the idea that God does not elect people beforehand. Yeah, I'd rather hang on to them. Yeah.
Some people. choose annihilationism because of that kind of a um You know, trepidation. This is one of the big doctrines that when we were going through doctrinal episodes going through Romans, specifically Romans 6, 7, 8, leading up to Romans 9 through 11, because that was all under the umbrella of end times prophecy. And so when we were doing that, there was a lot of text messages coming in asking us to talk about election, predestination, and to an extent we did. But I remember one of the things that people, we didn't read these comments on air, but one of the things people were saying was, We're not really answering the question.
And it was because you knew it was going to come up later in Romans. Yeah, Romans 9 through 11 is that. Mm that that Lynchman passage. Of course, there's also Ephesians 1 that is there. There's also Romans 8:28, 29 is also there that talks about election.
But Romans 9 through 11 is where Paul really talks about election, especially chapter 9. The second half of chapter 9 is where you really have to decide what you believe about election. And so I didn't cover it then, but here we are, and we're going to talk about this. But again, I want to. reiterate The Christ time.
What Paul is doing here is he's inviting us to To see life, past, present, future from the Christ time, to understand. How now that you are united with Christ, you're also united with the Christ time, and you see life from God's perspective. Mm-hmm. And one major reason for Paul to Introduce us to the Christ time. Even though the designation is not found in the scripture.
We No, it is true by looking at the evidence. Ann Jervis, the scholar, gave us this this designation. But the reason Paul is even bringing this up is because he wants us to understand that the promises that God made to Ethnic Israel the people of Israel. Those promises are irrevocable. And one way we see that is when we get into the Christ time, we see that it is God.
Reiterating those promises. It is God who is Faithful to his promises. to the fathers. Remember in the early part of Romans 9, chapter 9, verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, he talks about to them was given this and this and this, to the fathers. And here Paul is explaining to us what that means.
That's Abraham, that's Isaac, that's Jacob. These are the fathers. To them were given the promises.
So, no need to mention fulfillment because God is the fulfiller. And he is not going to Back down or vacillate or no show for his promises. He is going to fulfill what he said to them.
So he's calling on God's promises and he's showing them. But how does this fit into this idea of Allah? How does Paul move from this, God fulfills his promises, to whether or not God Pre-elects people to go to heaven?
Well, God pre-elects people. but not to go to heaven or hell. The doctrine of election is there, but not the way the doctrine of election has been made out to be in systematic theology, especially from the Reformed or Calvinistic perspectives. In those perspectives, those are elections unto salvation. In Romans 9, it's election unto service.
It is corporate election. not individual personal salvation. Individuals are elected because eventually those individuals will represent peoples. Right.
But they were not elected to be saved. They were elected to serve. Are you talking about individuals as in the father, as in like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob? Exactly. They are individuals.
Right, right. And that's often considered to be like, well, there you go. You keep talking about people and corporate, but there you have Abraham, an individual, Isaac, an individual, Jacob an individual. But they are not just any old individuals, they are the fathers. Right.
Paul talks about them in Romans chapter 9, verses 1 through 5. They, to them, are Are the fathers?
So it really is a an issue of non-comparison. It's one of those things where you say you cannot compare an individual today to Abraham as an individual. Right, because Father, what is the, what do you think when you think? of the word father or when I say the word father. The leader, the head.
The head, the one who is in charge and responsible for. Right.
You also see children, right? Yeah.
So you see many children.
So also when the word fathers are used in Romans chapter nine, It implies. Children, families. Anytime we talk about election, ever since your message, because this is the perfect comparison, I always think of the claw from Toy Story. Oh, the aliases, who will go and who will stay. But it's funny because we laugh at it, but it's a silly picture of how silly the doctrine of election.
Unto salvation. It can be when you think about election unto salvation. And people really do believe it. Like they might laugh at it, but at the end of the day, if you really press them, they would say, I do believe that that's how God operates.
Well, I grew up. Being taught this. I grew up hearing this. Really? Yeah.
100%. Like going up, the church that I grew up in, loved those people, love the pastors that I sat under there. But it was very much like God chooses people to be saved. And they would never say that God chooses who he sends to hell. It was just like those people are just kind of, it's up to chance.
Like, maybe they'll choose to follow God. Maybe they won't. I don't even know that they would formalize that belief, but 100% they're like, those people who are saved, God chose you to be saved. And if they, I guess it's like a logical like catch 22 as well, because if it's like, well, they did get saved later in life, it's like, cool, God chose them too. Right.
But whoever chooses God, God chose them first. Right.
Yeah.
It's just a nice, neat way to get out of any kind of Deep theological thinking. I don't know. I don't understand the gain of it. Other than just feeling like a chosen special few?
Well, there are some gains, but they are not usually talked about. One gain I think is there, but it's not discussed, is the fact that. The reformers They claim that doctrine. The Reformers were amazing, I mean Calvin. Amazing.
Man of God. How old was he? Like thirty-some years of age by the time he had written the Institutes. Very young. Very young.
and brilliant mind. Martin Luther All these people who we consider to be the reformers, they sort of held to this kind of a doctrine. But Does that mean that we need to follow suit just because they did? I can still appreciate the benefits of the Reformation. I can still be grateful for clarifying for us the doctrine of justification by grace through faith.
I am a child of the Reformation. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't have to agree with that doctrine. Right.
You don't have to say I'm reformed. Right.
Yeah.
With regards to election, because that's where really it comes down to when you say you're reformed, you're talking about election or predestination.
So I don't have to choose. To to abide by the doctrine of election as described and reformed thinking. But I can still appreciate the benefits that have come through. The Reformation. Yeah.
Do you think that do you think that it's a way to say, okay, the Jewish people and th maybe maybe this is petty, maybe this is very narrow-minded, but do you think it's a way to say the Jewish people were God's chosen people? I want to be chosen too. And so I'll literally take these verses and say, now I'm chosen.
Now I'm special. God chose me. as an individual. Instead of not choosing me. I believe that, and I think you have a point there.
I believe that during the Reformation period, and we're going back to the 14th, 15th, 16th centuries, okay, to pre-Reformation, Reformation, sort of post-Reformation period, in that period, the Jewish people were simply wanderers. Of course, they were living in Europe, so they had homes where they lived for centuries, but they were still not locals. They were not from. Eastern Europe. They were not from Ancient Russia.
They were people who were passing through and had to just live somewhere because they had been kicked out of their homeland for hundreds of years. Going back to the time of Hadrian, You know, what is it? The second century AD? Mm-hmm. So they were people without a land, without a home.
So they were just passing.
So, how can you now see these people who are.
well established right now because They're good business people, they're good bankers, they're good lenders, they're good. Tailors, or whatever other jobs they do, or business or occupation they have. They're very smart people. But you cannot tell me that All these promises that are given in the Old Testament still apply to them. For one, I mean, look at them, they're not in Israel.
Yeah.
And they haven't been in Israel for hundreds of years. But also, look at them, they have rejected the Messiah, and they still reject the Messiah.
So, how could God's promises be true for this people? Yeah.
So, I mean, even like Martin Luther, who was such a great man of God, he wrote a tractate against the Jewish people. Do they take revelation out of the equation completely? Do they just say, maybe that'll happen in the end times one day, but not now? Not today. Is that?
Yeah, I mean, they don't even study the book of Revelation. Don't even. Yeah, I mean, I had a professor who had reformed leanings, and when we studied New Testament introduction, he spent. The first semester, all the way. up to I would say one or two letters of Paul.
Like he got through the Gospels, the book of Acts. Romans for Second Corinthians. And then he paused. Then we had the second semester, spring semester, and he began in. Galatians, and he continued through Paul's letters and then the Catholic epistles, and then he.
On the on the final day of class We're not talking about the exam day, but the final day of class. Was Revelation. And he began. I think, let's say the class began at 10:10, ending at 11 o'clock. It was a 50-minute class.
He began Revelation at 10:35. Huh. Wow.
So it's not even half an hour. No. Do you think it's a conscious omission? Like, we're not going to talk about that because it says things that we don't believe in. Or is it like in those things, it's just like we don't know.
We don't know. That's what I was going to ask. Or is it like, hey, let's just not look too close because who knows? Yeah, because here you're talking about the 12 tribes coming back and they're mentioned by name and they're given numbers. I mean, come on, come on.
How can we? You know what?
Some things are not meant to be known. And so we're just going to leave them. I can't imagine people.
Well, maybe, maybe that's not true, but I was going to say. I can't imagine people doing that with other parts of the Bible. Like when Jesus says, love thy neighbor, it's like, I don't know what in the world he means. I don't know. Some people do that.
Yeah, true. That's true. That's what I was saying. Like, especially with our episodes that we were doing on drinking, people can very easily be like, ah, who knows? I'm just going to do my thing.
Cherry picking or buffet theology that you got to pick what you want and leave the rest. But what is very interesting in the book of Romans, Romans 9 through 11, is that Paul is teaching us about the doctrine of election, but it's not individual, it's corporate. And when it is individual, it still represents the corporate body. And it's not about salvation, election unto salvation, but it's election unto Service.
So let's walk through this passage together. This may take us more than one show. Sure.
So we're going to pick it up in Romans chapter nine and verse seven. Paul says, Nor are they all children. Because they are the seed of Abraham. Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham. Here's what's.
what what many people do. You don't have to be a seed of Abraham. To be a child of God. Why? Because it says, nor are they all children because they're the seed of Abraham, because the Jewish people are the seed of Abraham and they're not children.
So. Those who are not the seed of Abraham can be children. But keep reading. But in Isaac your seed shall be called.
So, if you really pay attention to what Paul is saying here, he is not saying that the seed of Abraham are not the children of God, so the non-seed of Abraham. Those who are not the seed of Abraham are the children. That's not what Paul is saying. In the context, he's saying, But in Isaac your seed shall be called, which means this. Who else was The seed of Abraham.
Ishmael. Ishmael Ishmael was also the seed of Abraham. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Because he's still a child of Abraham, but he's not the seed.
He's not.
So in Isaac your seed shall be called. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.
So they go, there you go. Yeah.
Jewish people are the children of the flesh, but they're not the children of God, which means those who are not children of the flesh are the children of God. No. Keep reading. But the children of the promise are counted as the seed. And Isaac is the one who represents that promise, not Ishmael.
Yeah, Ishmael was. A child of the flesh. And then in Isaac and Ishmael, we're not talking about two individual people. We're talking about people groups that descended from them. Right.
Nations. Initially, we're talking about individuals, but then we're talking about people groups. Like for our context in Romans, Paul is talking about people groups. Yes. Gotcha.
And what he is communicating to the church in Rome in the first century, which was divided, right? They were divided over the law. They were having contention over whether God still has promises for ethnic Israel. Paul is telling them: listen, let me just start by telling you guys. This whole idea that all Jewish people Are automatically going to heaven, that's not true because not all Israel is Israel.
Okay.
Okay, let's get that straight. They need to be saved too. only those who are saved Are truly children of Abraham. Truly Israel. Having said that, Let me explain to you why they are even considered to be the chosen one.
Really, the word there means the choice ones. But nonetheless, let's Stick with the chosen ones. He begins by saying Well Think about it. God was very specific when it came to picking these people. Those who were children of the flesh Were Ishmael and Isaac, but the promise.
Was only Isaac. God picked Isaac. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, and then it goes on to say: this is, we are now in verse 9. For this is the word of promise.
At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son. Not Hagar. Right.
Now the maidservant that they picked up in Egypt while they were disobeying God. And that's what Abraham thought. That's what Sarah thought. Yeah, Sarah's misunderstanding was that the promise was meant through Abraham's Abraham only. Not through her.
He was only the one who bore the promise, but God called the both of them. Absolutely. It was going to be Abraham and Sarah. Mm-hmm. And that's very important because when you go back to the Garden of Eden, it was the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent.
And Abraham was the father. fleshly But Eve, I'm sorry, Sarah was the mother flesh.
So this had to be a woman. Of promise, right? This is something of a rabbit trail conversation, but isn't this an example of how the Bible elevates women? Oh, absolutely. Because it's not just Abraham.
It's not just about the male line. That's right. It was important that Sarah was involved because it's the seed of the woman. But if you look at verse 10, it says the same thing again. And not only this, but when Rebekah also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac, which means that woman was very important.
Mm-hmm. Even Rebecca also When she had conceived by one man, Even by our father Isaac. For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him who calls.
So while they're still inside her womb, There's a battle raging between those two brothers. who later on became Jacob and Esau. And even then God said, I'm going to work through Jacob. It's not that I'm going to only save Jacob. But I'm gonna work through Jacob to bring the light unto the Gentiles, to bring My salvation into this world to bring the promised Son of God, my Son, the second person of the Godhead, fully God, will become fully man through the line of Jacob.
Right.
It's not that I love Jacob and he's going to heaven, and I hate Esau, he's going to hell. It's that I'm choosing Jacob to do this specific work, which is bringing Christ into the world. Absolutely. So keep reading in verse 11. Verse 12, it says, It was said to her, The older shall serve the younger.
I was going to ask if there's any... If there's anything to be explored in both generations, the younger one being the chosen one. Oh yeah, I mean there's so many.
So many applications there. typologies there where the older did not get it. But the younger did. And it's not like God was against the older son. But I think it's more about because I mean We don't know for sure Um If every person that God ever called was always the younger son, no, because Jesus was the older son among his siblings, even though they were half half brothers and sisters, he was the oldest one.
So that analogy cannot be pushed, but so far. But what we see here Is that And Isaac's family, Isaac and Rebecca's family, is Jacob the younger. Esau the older, God chooses Jacob. You go down the line, you have Joseph, who is younger compared to his brothers. You see, David was the younger brother to his brothers.
So there is something about. There's like a theme there. There's a theme there. And I think it has deeper applications. It depends on how far you want to go and how much leeway scripture is allowing us.
But uh the Old Testament is serving the New Testament. Right, right. It's the older serves the younger. And I know somebody may say, oh, come on, that's taking that analogy too far. Maybe you're right.
But Isn't that what it talks about? Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. And there is a division between Old and New Testament. That doesn't mean that they're at odds or they're at conflict, but one serves the other. Right.
And I think that's a great application to man. And that service is not necessarily. I am more important than you, or I am better than you. No, that service implies something beautiful that the old was setting it up for the new to come and take it to another level.
So it's not As much of a, is the Old Testament subservient to the New Testament or the New Testament superior to the Old Testament? No, it's not about superior, inferior. It's just. That's how God sets up. things in his economy.
Yes. The old serves the young. Mm-hmm. So, also, Old Testament serving the New Testament.
So, also, law serving grace. Does not mean. The law is Evil or terrible. Yeah.
We're quick to jump to hierarchy, right? We want to put stuff in a value placement as soon as early as we can. I don't know if that's sin or if that's just human nature or what it is, but I think you're exactly right. Just like with David and with Joseph and those examples you mentioned, they had a job, they had a mission to do that God was using them for.
So also with the New Testament, it's the word of Christ. And the Old Testament is supporting it. Not that it's like the New Testament's the one that matters, and the Old Testament is just there to help. They go together. But they definitely The Old Testament was always driving towards the New Testament.
Absolutely. I think that's a great analogy.
So, if you keep going here in Romans chapter 9. In verse 12, it says, It was said to her, the older shall serve the younger. This is from, again, going down to verse 13. As it is written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament about 33 times between Romans 9 through 11.
Mm-hmm. One-third of all of Paul's quotations from the Old Testament are found right here between Romans 9 through 11. And here he's quoting from Amalachi. I mean, Malachi is one of my favorite Old Testament books. Because He says In verse 13, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
Now If you just read it at face value, it seems like Man, that's pretty cut and dry. Yeah, like God loves Jacob and he hates Esau. No, if you go back and look at the context in Malachi, The people had become very cynical towards God. They had become very hateful. Towards God.
And so God is telling the people of Of Judah, really, Malachi, by Malachi's time, only Judah is left, maybe Benjamin there. Yeah.
My love for you It's so undeserving. You don't deserve it. You cannot earn it the way you have been behaving. It's just So sad, so horrible, so sinful, so evil. But I love you, anyways.
My love for you is so overwhelming and so amazing and so. Um much that it almost seems like I hate Esau. Because of the contrast between the two. Because of how much I care for you. It doesn't mean that he doesn't care for Esau.
It just means that it's like I do so much for you. It almost. It's almost like I hate Esau because I hardly do much for him. Yeah, that's a good point. By the way, let me make a quick point here.
Uh when it says Jacob I have loved, but Esau has hated. People draw from this that Esau went to hell. And that's not true. Neither did Ishmael went to hell. or go to hell.
Because, I mean, if you think about it, the pre-incarnate Jesus, the angel of the Lord, came and visited Hagar. When she was in the wilderness, when she was porshed, when she was she thought she was dying. The angel of the Lord came and not only met Hagar and blessed her and provided for her, but he also gave her a blessing for her child that this will also become a great nation. Yeah, it's important. It's important, if I hear you correctly, it's important to distinguish when we say Esau and Ishmael to distinguish whether we're talking about an individual person or a nation of people.
Yeah, as an individual. As an individual, Ishmael will be in heaven because Jesus Himself visited him. Also, Esau. You know, Esau, we only see him as what Hebrew says about him. How he uh was a profane man and how he A trash stove.
the right to be the firstborn. No, but The way he forgave Jacob when Jacob came back. That's a mark of someone who had been transformed by the grace of Christ.
So good, guys. We're excited to continue this conversation with you on next week's episode.
So, make sure that you tune in starting Monday. We're going to jump back into the conversation here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible, particularly Mighty Muscadine and LeBlue Ultra Pure Water. That's right. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Prey.com, wherever you get your podcasting.
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forward slash gear. John, what do you want to close with today? Just definitely want to say: make sure you guys are in church this weekend. Make sure you find somewhere to worship. We're very glad that you've joined us this entire week.
We're gonna see you next Monday when we continue this conversation on election. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you next time with Give Me Today.
