You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Albadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We got a great conversation for you guys today with our host.
Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Caroline University author, full-time pastor and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, it's so good to see you here in the studio again. Thank you.
It's good to be here. Absolutely. Absolutely. Wonderful day on the TV today. Absolutely.
Just a quick reminder for everybody: October is a great, great month to start listening to pray radio because, guess what? Guess who's on pray radio? As Slim Shady would say, guess who's back? Back again. Dr.
Shaw is back. Tell a friend. Should we keep that in? Yeah, should we keep that in or should we cut it? I'm going to leave it in.
I'm going to leave it in. So, for all of the month of October, Dr. Abadan Shah's audio-specific content is on Prey Radio at 8:30 a.m. all over the East Coast.
So, make sure you listen. It's 100% free and it's a great, great platform to start getting into daily Christian talk radio and talk audio. That's right. Tune in and listen at any time, and make sure you share that with your friends as well. We're growing that follower base.
We're headed towards 60,000. That's right. That's right. We're closing in, which is insane. And all that is from TV.
This is like a really, really cool experiment that Prey is actually letting us run, where we can just do one month of radio and see how listeners respond.
So, us telling you to do it is not like clickbait. This is, hey, Help us figure out the numbers. That's what, you know, Prey, if you've ever dealt with Prey.com before. Especially if you're a creator, they're very big into data. And yesterday we did a very data numbers-heavy episode.
Today we're doing one again. But this is really an experiment to see if radio is something that you guys want from us and from Dr. Shas.
So definitely, definitely, definitely let Prey know if that's the case. That's right. I got a quick question for you guys. Did I? Oh no.
So, this is a segment of our show we haven't done in a little while, but this is like something embarrassing has happened in our life.
Something really. I wish this hadn't happened, but unfortunately, it did.
So, Dr. Sha, as you know, my oldest has started school. That's right. K4. And so today I was dropping him off, right?
And I saw someone from across the parking lot that I thought I knew, an old friend. And I was like, golly, that looks like so-and-so. And I was like watching him, and he like looked over at me and he saw me watching him, right? From across the parking lot.
So I'm like, well, he's already seen me.
So I'm like looking and I'm like, I think that's him.
So, I'm like, well, I'm not just gonna sit here in the car.
So, I go to get Gavin out of the car, and I'm holding him by the hand, and I'm taking him up to the door to drop him off. And every now and then I'm watching this guy, and I'm like, he sees me watching him, and now I'm starting to lose confidence that it's him. I was like, oh damn. Don't maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm him, but I'm like, golly, that looks like my friend.
So I go and I drop Gevin off, I give him a hug. Bye, buddy. Have a good day. He goes in. I start walking back to my car, and this guy's walking straight towards me.
And by now, like, we're like locked eyes, and he can tell. That he thinks I know him. But at this point, I know this is not him. Oh, no. He's so focused on me, he doesn't see the curb, and he his, he like missteps on the curb, and his little girl just face planted right on the conquering.
And I was like, oh my gosh. And I knew I caused it because I was looking at him and he was like watching me and he wasn't paying attention to his little girl. Did you go help? No, I fled. I said, oh, I said, oh, I fled.
I said, hey, are y'all okay? They're like, yeah, yeah, we're good. We're good. I was like, okay, okay. And then I just fled.
Run away. Because I knew I had caused it. Have you ever seen someone across the street or like, have you ever seen someone across the way? It happened to me recently. I think I was at the mall, I think it was.
And I saw someone, and I thought I was like, oh, I know someone. And I, and then I realized, oh, no, that's not the person. That's a terrible feeling. That feeling never gets old. Oh, that's my friend.
Oh, no, it's not. Has that ever happened to you? Yeah, absolutely. I've gotten to the person and waved, and then, like, That's not a good idea. Are you waving that?
It's always better when you initiate it because sometimes I've had people wave to me, I thought they were waving to me. But and then, like, and they're waving behind you. One thing, I don't know if you ever do this, Dr. Shaw, but like. You're a public figure.
In the community, people know you. Way more people know you than you know them, right? True.
So, like, sometimes you don't want to say, Hey, sorry, I don't remember you.
So, you're just like, Hey, it's good to see you, man. Yeah. Rather than just the. The wave. And it's fine to do that.
Just go ahead and go with it. There are times people will come talk to me about. situations, people in their lives, and and I have I'm trying to catch up quick because I don't want to offend them by saying, What are you talking about again? Because that is not the way to go. But it builds that muscle memory of responding like that.
So I've had people, random people, that I knew d like There was no way I know this person, but they waved to someone I thought was me. And instead of just waving back, I was like, Hey, brother, what's going on? And they're like, Huh? And I was like, oh, sorry, I thought you were.
So there is, there is some screw. Spiritual application, yeah. Go for it. What do you guys think? What spiritual application can we get out of that?
Application. Be all things to all people. There you go. That's the one you were thinking of. That could be one.
Yeah. You know, that never happens with God. God knows us all.
So no matter who you are, you can always come back to God and say, hey, God. And God's not like, well, who are you? Who are you? He's like, hey, you old so-and-so. Yeah.
The only time I guess the Bible says Jesus will say, I never knew you. Oh, that's nice. Is if you deny him before men. Does not mean. that you don't have salvation because I will deny you before my father in heaven.
So, Shucks, you're in heaven, yeah, yeah, before with the father.
So, Jesus will be like. Do you remember when you denied me before people? You know, remember when you acted like you didn't know me? Yeah. Okay.
So I'm acting like I don't know you. I didn't know that. I didn't know that's what Jesus was saying there. That's right. So I believe that's simply a reprimand because on the other side, of course, we're going to get a lot of rewards, but there will also be some regrets there.
There will also be some shame there. Yeah. And it's not shame like you're going to hell now. Right. But looking back and saying, yes, I could have done better there.
So heaven is not like, hey, we're now all equal. I get everything you get, kind of thing. No, I also believe that there are crowns in heaven. There are also some regrets. There are also some shame in heaven.
But it's not the shame of like we think about shame here. It's not the shame of, well, now you are going to suffer. Humiliation forever and ever. It's a shame of realizing, man, this is eternity. Yeah.
But hopefully, in eternity, I'm going to live in a way that glorifies God better. Yeah, I think a lot of times when I've thought about heaven, I think when most Christians think about heaven, they think that we're going to be like holy robots with no knowledge of what sin ever was, no knowledge of what negativity ever was. There's absolutely none of that. And um Yeah, I just I don't know where that where that thought comes fr came from.
Well, the Bible even says, um He will wipe away every tear. And some of the most of the tears I would say are probably tears of sorrow. Because if he's wiping away our tears, they're not going to be tears of joy that he's going to wipe away, tears of sorrow. And I think those tears of sorrow may be sorrow over The sadness of life, the hurts of life, the pains of life. Uh but can you imagine?
Before the presence of God in eternity in the new heavens and new earth. And you are sad over Um Some pain of life. I just don't see that because you'll be able to see the life from a God's perspective, that all things work together for good. I mean, many times when people share their story, They cry, but they're not crying tears of joy, they're crying tears of sadness. And sometimes, I'm not saying always, sometimes those tears of sadness are because they were down and nobody was there.
Right. They were hurting and nobody cared. But imagine standing before God and saying, you know, I'm so sad And What you're saying is you were not there for me. Right. You did not care for me.
So I think. In heaven the tears of The tears that God will wipe away would probably be more the tears of. Sadness and regret. I would think so. I would say so.
That makes sense. It does. Right? Yeah. I wish I had done more.
I wish I had done things differently in the time that I had. been given in that earthly life. Of the old earth, I wish I had more. But it's not going to be like, okay, that's it.
Now it's life is over for you. Right. No, I don't think we have yet to truly understand what the new heavens and new earth and the life in eternity is going to be like. Yeah, we have to give away and walk away from that whole platonic Greek pagan understanding of heaven, which is just nothing but clouds, nothing but peace, and nothing but. Playing the harp.
In long white robes, we have to get away from that idea, and it's a real heaven, real earth. Real Dirt and real mountains and valleys and rivers and oceans and animals. There'll be animals in heaven. Do you imagine people will be there? Do you imagine some sort of hierarchy among the believers, like those who did very little on earth versus those who really won souls for the kingdom and laid up treasures for them?
But the Bible talks about that, right? We're going to be judging angels. We will be set in charge over groups and nations and people.
So, yes, I think there will be. But it's not going to be the kind of hierarchy in the sense of that you will. Um now you are Set for eternity, right? Not just set for life. You're set for eternity that you can just enjoy your position.
It's locked in forever. I don't think it's going to be like that. I think in heaven, you will advance, you'll grow, you will. Improve your status. That's encouraging.
Yeah, because I think we need to understand that this life is, in a sense, a dress rehearsal for the life to come. Mm-hmm. But th I don't think there will be demotions because That comes from sin. Yeah. So I don't think there will be demotions.
There will be nothing but progress growth yeah upward and onward but i think there will be learning and growing. I think any time there's any time there's growth, there's usually regret or there's At least a cognis a a cognitive like Understanding and acknowledgement that I should improve or I should have improved. Right. You know, because otherwise, how do you know that you need to grow? Right.
If you don't know that you have to improve from something lesser. Yeah. Learning, I mean, learning that, that comes from our understanding of scripture, our understanding of what the Bible says about heaven. Jesus talked a lot about heaven and what we can expect. And, you know, it's important to dig into God's word and figure out exactly what it is that we're headed toward.
And also, like, maybe the understanding of because it's eternity, there's no final. You know what I mean? Like, like this, like you said, this life is a dress rehearsal for the life to come. I'm trying to become as close to Christ. Christ-like as possible, not in my own power, but I'm trying to imitate him.
And so maybe also in heaven, There's a growth of becoming more and more and more like Christ. Yeah, and you'll always keep growing, but you will never become God. You will never come to a place like you catch up with God because that. is impossible for you and I to ever, ever, ever even remotely reach. The level that we can say, I think I can touch him.
It's not possible. That's right. Just take that off the table. That option doesn't exist.
So, yes, you'll keep growing, but if you truly understood how vast and how powerful, how immense, how eternal God is. You will just take that option off the table. It's not possible. That's true.
Well, our verse of the day today comes to us from 2 Timothy 3, verse 16, talking about the Bible and understanding more about God's word. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction and righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Dr. Sean, I know this is personally one of your favorite verses in all of the Bible because it talks so, so. Definitely about the word of God.
And yesterday we talked a lot about this survey, the survey that Ligonier Ministries did alongside Lifeway Research. And we were kind of able to look at the numbers and see firsthand that we're living in a time where many people who profess to be Christians or really just even standard Americans hold contradictory thoughts. theological views, or just even they're unclear. And so we looked at a lot of these questions that were on the survey, but I go back to this verse that reminds us that scripture is the standard. Absolutely.
God's word is the standard. Absolutely. I wish we had more time just to talk about the importance. Of the doctrine of scripture. Here I will just say: without scripture, we are nothing.
Right. That's true.
There's nothing. There's absolutely nothing. There is not a doctrine of scripture and doctrine of creation, like these are two books that go side by side. No, that is not true. There's only one book that is the word of God, and that is the Bible.
That's right. Creation tells us a lot about God. But creation does not tell us Who exactly God is. It can tell us that God is great, God is powerful, God is creative. God is caring.
But it cannot tell us the Trinity. It cannot tell us about the Incarnation. It cannot tell us about the virgin birth, the atonement, the resurrection. The consummation it cannot tell us those things.
So scripture is Vital. I mean, there's nothing in my heart more important. Of course, somebody can argue and say, what about Jesus?
Well, scripture is about Jesus. That's right. But nothing, nothing, nothing at all. Comes close to the doctrine of scripture. We need the word of God.
That's right. We were talking yesterday about a lot of these questions that Americans have been asked as a part of this survey that went out through Ligonier Ministries and Lifeway. And so a lot of these.
Some of these we sort of anticipated correctly what people would say, but then some of them kind of caught us off guard. And so I wonder how many people who answered this are using scripture as their. As their support and as their foundation. And like you said, Ryan, how many are just this? This is what I feel.
A good, loving God wouldn't act this way or that way.
So that's what my answer is. Yeah, I think a lot of times in that line of reasoning, we sort of begin to craft God in our image. Like, I don't feel like God would do this. I don't feel like this is appropriate for God.
So we sort of make God as like. A human being, only larger. And that's not the case at all. We are created in his image, not the other way around. I would say before we go into our the list of questions that were answered by these participants in this survey is that it also reflects the biblical illiteracy that is in our cultures.
Yes, I would say it also reflects the theological illiteracy that's in the churches. This is the byproduct of people not knowing the word of God. For example, the question before me or the statement before me is: the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible. Listen again. The Holy Spirit can tell me to do something which is forbidden in the Bible.
Did you know that? 52% strongly disagree with that, which is great. Thank you. But that's not enough people. No, it's not enough.
But here. 7% strongly agree. Oh, no, no, no.
Now, either the 7% misheard the question. Misunderstood the question. Or something is wrong with them. Or they're saying Bible calls homosexuality a sin, but the Holy Spirit can tell me to do something. Also, 7%.
That's what's happening? Yeah, 7% of the hundreds of thousands of people who took this interview, that's still a significant number.
Well, it's not hundreds of thousands. It was only about 3,000.
Okay, okay. Yeah, if I'm not wrong, it's about 3,000 participants. 30,000 people. Yeah, 3,001 survey. Why was it 3,001?
I have no idea. Is that one that slipped away? Slipped in there. Gotcha.
Somebody's friend was being surveyed, and they're like, wait, I want to do it too. Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha. Here's another one. Everyone sins a little, but most people are good by nature.
Uh oh. Strongly agree 24.
Somewhat agree 42%. What is that? That's 60-something. That's 60-something percent of people, 68% of people. Who really believe that?
Yeah. Unless they're saying something like, most people generally have a moral code or they understand morally what it is, like killing is wrong, that you don't really have to commit to making that doesn't make you good. I know you're not safe. Right. But unless that's what they're latched onto with a somewhat agree, people like, no.
I mean, we are wretched sinners, is what I would say. Right. Because that's what the Bible says. I think that's a Disney thing. Like, people are just good by nature.
That's like a fictional Disney, like, you know what I'm saying? I don't know. I don't know. Because I wonder even before that, like decades ago, would people have agreed with this, that people are good by nature? That seems like a very 80s, 90s thing to me.
Maybe I'm wrong on that. Yeah, I think you may be right on that. I think we have this confidence in our flesh, in ourselves, that if I just sit down with the worst person in the world, Just with my niceness and my kindness, I can get them to sort of bring out the best in them. I think you're right. And that.
Not only overestimates yourself, it also underestimates the wickedness, the evil in human heart. People. more I live this life, People are not inherently good. I agree with you 100%.
Now, they are made good in the image of God. with the capacity to do certain good things, but they are not sinless. No. There there is something very evil residing in them. And that corruption came in because of original sin.
And that original sin has impacted every single person Other than Jesus. I have no morals apart from God. Right. Yeah. Even the morals that are in society are derived from biblical principles.
Yeah. Like it's wrong to take another person's life in cold blood. Where do we find that? Thou shalt not murder. I mean, you can boil things back to the morality that is dictated by the word of God.
And God has given us conscience.
So there are people who don't believe in that Judeo-Christian value system, and yet they operate with a sense of conscience. But again, that conscience is coming from God. But the conscience can also be tailored based on the culture and the society in which you're living.
So conscience is not the Word of God. Conscience is not the Holy Spirit. And people try to separate morality from God so much. Like, I remember in high school, I had people asking me, you know, if you weren't Christian, Would you be okay with gay marriage or whatever? And I remember.
Thinking it was like such a silly question because it was like, number one. Yes, I'd be okay with it, but I would still be wrong. I'd still be objectively wrong. Number two. I don't, you can't take the, if you weren't a Christian, it's right or wrong because of what God says, no matter what I say.
It's not like I'm Christian, so I think that. You know what I mean? That's what it is. This isn't my opinion. This is God's standard.
That's right. That's right. Now, here's one that really got me based on what we've been talking about for the past few minutes. Even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation. 60% said absolutely not.
Strongly disagree.
So I assume this is written by Christians. Like these questions are worded by Christians. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They are. They're a little worded strangely, right?
I agree. I was just thinking of that for this question. Because it's not worded weirdly. It's not the sin itself. It's not committing a sin that sends us to hell, right?
It's being separate from Christ. But I think they're asking people based on where people are and how people. the average person thinks. Come on. For us, like lying, I'm gonna go suffer in hell forever.
That's what that question may have been. I think you're right, but I think they're leading their people. I think they're leading them to a false. You know what I'm saying? I would say I don't think they're trying to lead them to a false place.
I may be wrong. No, no, you you're probably to almost like tease out But The common person who does not know Christ has not been in a Bible-reading world who. Who thinks Are you really telling me that that the sweet old lady down the street is going to go to hell because she does not believe in your Jesus? I mean, okay, so. She lied.
Or she Um Cussed one time. That means she's going to hell forever. Gotcha.
So. And I think, and again, Leganier is a very reformed, very, very heavy on that side of things about the original sin, which I agree with. Right. They must be trying to tease that out from people. Like, do you think there's inherent good in you?
Yeah. Yeah, you're probably right. That's a good, that's a good way to think. 10% of people strongly disagree. I mean, there's some Christians in there.
Here's what I would say: if I was asked that in a question form, even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation. I don't go to hell because I sin. I go to hell because I am a sinner who rejects the Savior. That's a different situation. It's not just the act.
It's the identity, right? And it's a willful. rejection of um The solution. That's right. It's like you're trying to get into a really exclusive club or something, and it's like you have to know the owner.
And it's like They're not letting you in because of something you did back there. It's because I don't know you. You don't know the owner. Right. It's a big difference.
Yeah. Here's another one. God counts a person as righteous not because of one's works, But only because of one's faith in Jesus Christ. I'll repeat that again for those who are. Listening or watching us, God counts a person as righteous not because of one's works.
But only because of one's faith in Jesus. How only 34% strongly agree. That's lovely. Yeah. Works-based righteousness?
Yeah. 22% somewhat agree. Yeah. Works should follow, but they're not the source of the righteousness. They're not what saves us.
12% don't even know. 12% said they're not sure. 12% got confused by the words. They were like, too many words in that sentence. Yeah.
Everyone is born innocent in the eyes of God. See, like that one, what does it mean born innocent? Like, yeah, what is that? Like, you are sinless until you commit it? But I see now what you're saying, Pastor Shah, that what they're really asking is: do you think babies, if a baby dies, do you think babies go to heaven?
Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's the I think they're also maybe asking questions like: Is there something called original sin? Are you? Do you believe in original sin?
That's something in you without you having done a single act of sin. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you're right. And I get it. I mean, I know what you're saying.
And that that gets us into a bigger Question that people often ask me, which is: do all babies go to heaven? And that's a tough question to answer because some people say, of course. Of course. They haven't had the opportunity to sin yet. Right.
I mean, then what do you do with original sin? Are you born in trespasses and sin? Right. Or are we born innocent and then we are born into Trespasses and sin. I mean, what do you think?
When does that happen? Oh, the age of accountability. I've always, that's why I paid a lot. That gets very tricky.
So, you know, if somebody wanted to be a devil's advocate, they can always say, why don't we kill all the babies in the world? But then everybody's going to heaven. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, just kill you as soon as you're born.
Yeah, I mean I'm not saying should do that. No, no, I know what you're saying. A person with a deranged mind can always come up with. That's not true.
So, there are a lot of questions there that people ask. Uh I say The only sure answer we have is those who are growing up in in homes where Christ Mm-hmm. Uh that's what we can say with surety. That they are covered under God's grace. Others, I don't know.
I mean, I just trust God's mercy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really the best way to do it. That's a good way to put that.
I trust God's mercy. But I do think there's, like you said, Dr. Shah, there's a cool place to be, at least for me, where it's like, hey, look, those are. Questions that I don't know right now, and I'm okay with that. You know, I'm gonna learn God's mercy one day.
I see them as: okay, great question. There are certain things that we can understand and know from scripture, some things we don't. And I don't want to be sitting here saying only Christian babies go to heaven. That's right. and non-Christian babies don't.
If you pushed me into a corner and said tell us, then I will have to lean on the side of um That, but I cannot with certainty have a message on it. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Lean on God's grace.
I think you put that in the grave. I would lean with you. That's the way you're going to put it. Yeah, great question. It's important for us to talk through these issues.
And I'm grateful for studies like this that show us kind of the climate, the theological temperature of the world around us, because it shows us where we need to step up as believers, as a church. And I'm grateful for your messages, Dr. Shah. I'm grateful for this radio show that does that for people, that says, hey, this is the truth of God's word. This is how you need to understand.
Like the thing about the Holy Spirit telling you to do something. Contrary to the Bible. We've talked about that on episodes of the radio show, and I think that was helpful for people. And I think it's also helpful to get a sense of where our nation is. Like all of us, like for me, I was thinking our nation's lost.
We're doomed. We are way off. But a lot of these questions are like, okay, I think we're actually going in a better place than we thought. 100% agree. I mean, one of the things that I walked away after reading this survey was: there are good days ahead for America.
Right. To say that theology is sort of stable, that is very optimistic. From where we were a couple of years ago, we felt like we were on this slippery slope. There is no coming back. We're going down the road of Sodom and Gomorrah.
And in some ways, maybe we are, but I think there is still something God is doing. I agree with you. With all this that happened with Charlie Kirk, we have begun to see an awakening happening, a revival that is taking place.
So why say doom and gloom when God is doing something? That's right. I want to be hopeful. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of hope, which means there's a better day coming. God is doing something new in America.
God is doing something fresh. Among our young people, I want to be part of that. I want to help. I want to help in them in. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station.
We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors, the Blue, Ultra Pure Water, and Mighty Muscanine, for making today's episode possible. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Pray.com, wherever you get your podcasts from. You can also support us financially at Abhidhanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today?
Same thing we said up top. Definitely want to push you towards pray radio every single Monday to Friday at 8.30 a.m. Dr. Shah's audio is going to be on there. It might be the Clearview Today show.
It might be one of his sermons. It might be something else entirely. But we know you're going to get some great biblical talk content. On Pray Radio.
So definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you go and follow Dr. Abadan Shah on Pray.com and tune in every single morning, 8:30 a.m. throughout all the month of October. That's right. We love you guys.
I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah. Mm.
