You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Happy Friday to everybody out there listening.
The weekend is finally here. We're gearing up for a great time of worship. Before we do any of that, we got today's episode on the books with Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, welcome. Welcome to the street. It's good to be here. Good to see you. Good to see you.
There it is. There's the studio audience we've been missing. There it is. It's great to see you. Thank you.
You know, before we start today's episode, I do want to remind everybody listening that this show is syndicated through the Truth Network. We want to encourage all of you guys. Check out their original programming. Lots and lots and lots of Christian talk radio out there, all in one convenient place, and that is the Truth Network. That's right, you can listen to it on a radio station near you.
They have a whole list of stations on their website, but also it's available to stream. You can get it through the Truth app. You can stream it online on the browser. It's a great way to take that content with you, including through your Today. And I'm going to tell you this: you might not believe me, but I'm going to just tell you: this is the truth.
Even if we weren't on the Truth Network, I would still plug these guys. These are some really great guys. Yes, yes, absolutely. Our verse of the day today is coming from 2 Corinthians 11, verse 30. If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.
Dr. Shah, you preached this message last Sunday. And then we talked about it again Sunday night. And, you know, I just kind of came and I spoke with Dr. Shah privately.
And I said, this verse has really come alive for me in the past week or so. The things that we're going to boast about are going to boast about in weakness. You know what I mean? We're going to boast about the things that make us weak. And it's very different than boasting about all the things that we go through, right?
Like all the struggles that we have to do, everything that's up against me. Most Christians have no problem boasting about that. Yeah, I was going to say we love to be a sob story. Oh, you have to love to give me all the pity. Give me all your sympathy.
Absolutely. And look, Paul did it.
So I'm good. I'm just doing what Paul did. Paul is saying, I'm not boasting in the things I've been through. I'm boasting in my weakness. That's right.
There's a world of difference.
Well, because later on in the same section, he talks about God's grace being upon him and how when he is weak, then he is strong. Or when we are weak, then we're strong.
So Paul is leading that argument towards explaining that weakness is not the end of. Life weakness is the beginning of life. This is where God's grace rests upon us.
So the qualification is weakness.
So when we boast, it's not just in, like, oh man, you don't know what I've been through. Right? That doesn't achieve much. Or to say, if you only knew, one day I'm going to tell you my story. And I have people tell me that.
I like to hear people's stories. I'm not calling judgment on them. But if all you're doing is talking about how. Tough your life has been.
Okay. What is the end goal? Should I admire you? Should I compliment you? Should I.
think very high. Highly of you. What is the end goal? Right. That wasn't Paul's end goal.
Paul's end goal was: look how weak I am, and look how much God's grace rests upon me. The principle is: when we are weak, then we are strong. That's right. His grace is sufficient for me.
So, the goal of all this talk about weakness. Was to magnify the grace of God. Amen. Amen. You know, we started the conversation yesterday about a character who, like Paul, could have boasted in his weaknesses, could have boasted in the things that he went through or the things he had to suffer, but he didn't.
And that was the character of Stephen. Dr. Sharon, for those who didn't join us yesterday, do you want to recap kind of where that conversation landed and where we're headed today? Absolutely. Well, we began talking about Stephen's conversion and the subsequent conversation.
Stephen's martyrdom and the subsequent conversion of the Apostle Paul because of what happened in our nation about. Two weeks ago. And two weeks ago, as you know, Charlie Kirk was murdered by somebody who hated him for his message, who hated him because he stood for the gospel of Jesus Christ, who hated him because he stood for the word of God. and hated him enough to take his life.
So, our world has been, in a sense, of grief. There's been a heaviness on people. But also, a lot of good things are coming through this. People are coming to the Lord. Right here in our church, we had a baptism last Sunday of a lady that I've known for a long time who committed her life to Jesus Christ because she was so moved, so touched by the Holy Spirit that she knew that this was not just.
Overwhelming grief or sorrow or shock. This was the power of the Holy Spirit drawing her to Christ through the death, the murder, I would say the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. That's right. We started talking about how Stephen's martyrdom led to even further persecution among the Christians and how we often attribute that persecution to all of these different reasons. But we sort of narrowed it down yesterday and said that the main reason that Christians were being persecuted, and maybe even this is true to today still, is the exclusivity of the gospel.
Absolutely. Jesus is the only way.
Well, what we find is, and Paula Fredrickson, who is a scholar. and um and and I've read her books, Paul the Pagan's Apostle, uh is has has opened my eyes in this direction. Because Paula Fredrickson makes the argument that That it was not the scandal of a crucified Messiah. that caused the persecution of the Christians. You know Jesus the Messiah.
Godson. Crucified? Oh, come on. How can you Christians who are really ex-Jewish people, how can you crucify the Messiah? That is so blasphemous for that we will persecute you.
No, because. Isaiah 53. In fact, right between Isaiah I mean, Acts chapter 6 and 7, you have Isaiah 53 being the very passage that impacted the Ethiopian eunuch, and Philip the Evangelist had to join him and explain it to him. Jewish people knew about. The crucified Messiah?
They knew That one would have to suffer for many. That was part of. They're foundational truths. Right. Neither was it the scandal of legal laxity, meaning um The mingling with the Gentiles.
Jewish people didn't have a problem with that. In the temple in Jerusalem, especially during the time of Solomon, there were no distinctions between the people of Israel and the Gentiles. They didn't have their own separate courtyards, none of that. That came through Herod. Yeah.
The core of the man, core of the women, core of the Gentiles, that's a later creation. That wasn't there back then.
So Synagogues? No, synagogues had God fearers. Anybody could come into the synagogue and participate in the sense of like sit down and listen. You didn't have to be Jewish to come. You didn't have to be a Jewish person.
That's the beauty of Jew of the Jewish people is that they welcome people. That was not off limits. And you hear in the in the Gospel in the book of Acts God fearers. Cornelius, I think, was a godfearer, means he went to the synagogue, but he still probably worshipped his Roman gods. Mm-hmm.
He didn't give up that practice, but he was still welcome in the synagogue. Right. So you could. Still worship other gods and still come to the synagogue because. There's a sickness in your family, or you need someone.
Some Some um Prayer answered, something is going on in your life, and you're searching, you're welcome. to come and participate.
So having Gentiles part of your assembly was not the cardinal sin for which we have to kill this group of This Who called themselves Christians.
So when you go to 2 Corinthians, because that's where we began this topic today or our discussion, Paul gives us the many different avenues from which he was persecuted. And Paula Fredrickson uses that to help you understand how the early church was persecuted. Because If Paul was persecuted a certain way and he was right there from the beginning, right? He was. Maybe a couple of years behind the apostles.
That's all. Yeah. So his persecution and the early church's persecution were probably very similar.
So who persecuted Paul? You have him getting thirty nine slashes? Right, that's a synagogue discipline. And Synagogue was not a um l like a You know, a law and enforcement authority, they would give you the choice. Right.
Like, you want to be part of this synagogue, this fellowship, this community. This is the discipline for you. You ha are you willing to be subject? And you could say, No, I'm I'm good and you know what? You're out.
I don't need to be here. And you could walk away. Paul subjected himself to the synagogue discipline five times. Mm-hmm. And that changes the way you read that verse because it's not something that Paul had to do, it's something that he did.
To maintain that relationship. Right, and it also helps you understand that the Jewish people. Persecuted him. The second group are, you know, Paul talks about being beaten with rods three times. Jewish people didn't do that.
Right, the Romans. Romans did it. Mm-hmm. So the Romans persecuted him. But then it talks about being stoned.
Now, we know that in the Old Testament they stoned people. But when you read the book of Acts, much of that stoning is not happening because of Old Testament laws. Right. This is simply urban city dwellers who are angry with these Christians. Whether it is Stephen or Paul or whoever, dragging them outside of town and they're stoning them.
Is it legal? Is it an illegal mob? Yeah, it is an illegal mob because in Ephesus they're told either you disperse or you're in trouble. You know, they're told that. It's like the authorities are coming, the Romans are coming, they're not going to tolerate this.
But it still happened. Paul still had to suffer it. Yeah, he had to suffer it all.
So, did these people just take it upon themselves to do that? Or was it kind of like those in authority turned a blind eye to what was going on? A little bit of both, yeah, because it was like, I mean, you want to find all this crowd? I mean, we can, but. I mean Who are we saving?
Yeah, just that one guy? This Jewish man from Tarsus? who thinks The Messiah has come and his own people don't like him. I don't care. I don't want to get involved.
Let's beat him. Whatever. Let them kill themselves.
So that's how they saw that.
So so now take account of this. You had Jewish people. He had Romans. You had urban city dwellers or idol worshipers, but then you also had false brethren. You know, Paul says in perils of false brethren.
Means these are people who are trying to evangelize, but they're really trying to lead the Gentiles back to the circumcision. All these groups hated Paul.
Okay. And Paula Fredrikson makes the argument that that this is the same These are the same reasons why, or same entities that were also hating the early church. Why would all these groups come together against this one sect? Because This one group of people Known as The followers of the way. Word detrimental to society.
They were not good for social order. Mm. They were disrupting. the peace of the city. Yeah.
Whether it's the synagogue or the Roman Empire, just your presence. And what did they do?
Well, they claimed to be followers of the way, which means they were claiming exclusivity. Right. For the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yeah. Not followers of a way, followers of the way.
Our way is the correct way. And if you want salvation, it has to be done this way.
So, this whole thing about like Cornelius. Like going to the synagogue and worshiping the true God, but then also worshiping his Roman gods. The Jewish people were like, Yeah, you can do that if you want to, but Christians would have been like, No way, Jose can't. And keep in mind, the first Christians are Jewish. Right, right.
So it was supposed to be a Jewish thing that you would help people follow the living, true God. I would say the living, true, triune God. The Jewish people who rejected the Messiah were content with their traditions.
So it was not that important to them that these Gentiles or these God fearers should Should worship the living true God who has spoken through his son. It didn't matter to them. Traditions. Yeah, you have your tradition. We have our traditions.
We believe that we are the followers of the only true God, but you don't. You know, it is what it is. Come on in. Was there objection? Theological in nature, or was it More practical, like you're disrupting our way of life.
I think the second part is practical all day.
So, we just did an episode two days ago reviewing some comments that Ben Shapiro had made on the Joe Rogan show. And one thing we didn't include in that clip is pretty much exactly what you're saying. And he says, from his own words, Judaism doesn't really care about converts. They're not seeking to. I think he said at one point, I don't know if he was being like.
Like exaggerating, but he said we actively discourage people from just from joining Judaism. We are not looking. To bring people in, yeah, but that's not always how it used to be, right? Right, right, right. The people of Israel were supposed to proselyte, they were supposed to go far and wide, and the Pharisees were trying to do that.
In fact, Jesus even condemned them because he says, You travel land and sea to make one proselyte, and once you do, you make him more a child of hell than yourselves. E you know They were supposed to do that and some did it, but floor. Wrong reasons.
So Judaism, again, I need to be careful, not Judaism. But the faith of the Old Testament, which was also the faith that we espoused to, which was expecting the coming of Jesus Christ, Judaism is what I would say is post- Messiah. Rejecting Jesus, now you have Judaism. That's how I see that. I think that's a good distinction.
Yeah. Because I wouldn't, it would kind of be silly to. Put the entirety of the Jewish faith into one word because there's so many different ways that it can be. Taken and splintered and categorized, but you know, talking about this Messiah who had come, I'm kind of interested to see how Paul.
Sort of works into this because if you think about like Jewish leaders, I mean, Saul is. Like The cream of the crop. But he goes from being the persecutor to the persecuted. And I'm kind of curious as to how that whole process takes place. I mean, I know he sees Jesus on the road to Damascus, but then what happens between then and him becoming Paul, the hero of the faith?
Yeah, Paul does more than just accept Jesus. He does more than just get saved. He's then kind of ignited in the mission.
Well, his calling was not. Just to be a writer of the Word of God, because Paul wrote most of the New Testament. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.
That's insane. I mean, Romans. Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians. 1 2 Corinthians First, Second Thessalonians, First, Second Timothy, Titus. File Eman.
Yeah. That's a lot. That's a lot. And I mean, these are powerful epistles. These are not just your armchair reading.
This is like rich, deep work. And this is from somebody who was an enemy of the work of the faith. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And when God called him and got hold of him, I mean, knocked him to the ground on his way to Damascus, because that's where he was going.
Carrying this letter, which actually didn't mean a thing. Because the high priest and the temple did not have jurisdiction over the synagogues. That's the synagogues were not like. Answerable to the temple. Temple was temple.
Synagogues were local Congregations that met together because they cannot be at the temple.
So, where are we going to meet? We cannot like travel to Jerusalem every weekend.
So we're going to meet here. That's the synagogue. But if the I guess in the back of my mind, I just kind of assumed they were all linked and connected. Like the people who were overseeing the synagogues answered to The home office, essentially. No, there was nothing like that.
But if they act as though, like if the high priest or whoever is in the temple acts as though they have that authority, knowing that the Romans really don't care and probably won't interfere, they can sort of just do whatever they want, right? Yeah, they were doing it more like intimidation, like, hey, there's a letter here from the high priest.
Well, his letter doesn't apply here. What you want. You want to tell them. You really want this smoke? Yeah, you really want, you want, you know what?
I'm going to tell them that your particular family that lives in Damascus is rejecting the authority of the temple.
So, well, you know, I don't wanna I want to get him.
So people would back down. Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of things were being done illegally simply to threaten, to intimidate, to cause fear and havoc. Among the Christians, yeah. Did Paul have authority to kill these people, like to have these Christians killed under Roman?
No, they did not. He did not.
So these are like shit. Truly murders. These are not executions. These are not lawful. Like, these are murders of Christians.
Yes, yes. Everything was being done wrongly. Gotcha. And the Romans did not say much because they're thinking, all right. The Jewish people have an agreement with us.
And what is their agreement? We're not going to bow to Caesar. But we support everything the Empire does. Our sons fight in the battles for you. They are part of the army.
Our businesses support you. We maintain peace and prosperity wherever we are.
So Well, we are for a room. And we consider ourselves Roman citizens, but just a matter of. You know, this thing we just have to say, you know, God is our only king and all that, but just you know, our hearts, we're not gonna oppose you. We support you, we'll always support you. And when it came down to it, Jewish people always supported the emperor, so no problem there, right?
Right. But now, this little group among the Jewish people. is saying We have no You know, no Caesar. We don't worship any emperor. We worship the living true God alone.
Very vocal about it. That's when I think Even the the Romans were like, you know what? Yeah. We're going to sit back and watch this thing. Yeah.
Because the Romans knew that the Jewish people would take care of it for them because they were in a position of privilege with Rome. Right, because they don't want to lose their privileged status. Yeah. And if they're going to take care of it, why are we going to waste resources and get our hands dirty if these people are going to accomplish the goal that we would have anyway? But I think the one thing that they didn't count on was Paul.
Yeah. Paul being converted. That had to come out of nowhere because I'm sure they were aware of Paul. I'm sure they were aware of his tactics and everything.
So to hear that all of a sudden now he's Christian. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think these conversations help because, like, putting it into this historical context makes Paul's conversion really a bug. Bullet fired out of left field. It is.
It is. Like, that's really. You know, maybe down the road, we can even have a conversation on what was that conversion really about? How much did Paul really convert? Good point.
I mean, think about that because we're going to be starting a series very soon. From Romans chapter 9 all the way to chapter 11 about the role of Israel in end times prophecy. And the question then is, you know, was there really a conversion? Or was it more of an awakening? Yeah.
That's a good point. Yeah, do Jewish people uh really convert to Christianity or was it more of an a A fulfillment, like, oh, wow, yeah, yes, that is. Yeah, I get it. I understand now. Rather than rather than a complete shift to something different, it's more of a like.
It's fulfilled. Yeah, it is.
Now, he's getting, or he's attempting to get the Jewish people onto the right track. Right. It's more of a culmination rather than conversion. That's a good point. That's a good point.
That's what I would say. How does that change our understanding, do you think, of Paul and his well, if that is the case, then I think a lot of things make sense because the first church was completely made up of Jewish background believers. Right. For them it was not a change as much as Here it is. We've been praying for this, we've been hearing about it, and the entire Old Testament testifies to this.
He came. He was here. But with lawless hands we took him and we crucified him. but He is our Saviour. As a nation, they're not ready to accept him.
There's a veil before their eyes. But as individuals, as families, they're receiving Jesus.
So it's more of a culmination for them. Yeah. Yeah. But I think in time it became a conversion because you're running one way and then you're turning around.
Now, how actively Some of them Prime example, Paul opposed. Christianity. How actively he did that, or they did that, would also determine how much conversion had to happen. How do you mean? Because Paul himself, let's say in Philippians, calls himself a blasphemer.
You know, he calls himself that what do you mean by blasphemer?
So it's more than just I was waiting for the culmination. Oh, he's the one.
Okay, I've been trying to kill him, kill people who follow him, but he's the one.
Okay, all right, my eyes are open. Forgive me, Lord. But he calls himself a blasphemer.
So we need to then think about Was it not just a realization, and was it also a change? Of heart and mind, and how much is that significant?
Well, you've talked before on the show about how the people who were after Jesus and the people who put him to death knew and understood that he was the Messiah, that he was the Son of God. And they still Put him to death. Yeah, I would say so. Eye-opening realizations for me. Yeah.
Because I've always operated under that false assumption that they just didn't get it. Jesus tried, and he tried, and he tried to make them understand. And the disciples tried to make them understand, but their eyes were just shut. They couldn't figure it out. They couldn't come to that conclusion.
And then talking with Dr. Shah and talking through all of this stuff has helped you realize the gravity of the cross because it's like, no, no, no, they understood well. They just didn't like it. Right. And how far you have to come.
Like to think about, if I just truly think I'm doing the right thing and I put the son of God to death. It's like, well, I followed my heart. I thought I was doing God's will. But to be like, no, no, he's the Messiah. But I'm we're yeah, I don't like that, and he's gonna die for that.
Like that's deprav. The depravity really hits home. Yeah. Well, see, and I'm sorry, I meant. Philippians, he does talk about his conversion.
Very briefly, very briefly, but in First Timothy, he says this: First Timothy chapter 1, verse 13. He says, Although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man. But I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
So Blasphemer, persecutor, and violently arrogant. That's who he was, but he did it ignorantly.
So there is an element of change involved there. Right. So Again, this is an interesting discussion, maybe for another time of how much was there a conversion versus a culmination. Maybe in Paul's case, it was a unique thing where there was a conversion because of his active. opposition to His Fellow Jewish people who were following the Messiah.
Do you think there's any significant, and I know we're running out of time, but is there any significance to the fact he didn't say, I did it. Ignorantly By not knowing, it's ignorant unbelief.
So it's like, I didn't believe the right thing rather than just I didn't know. Because if I do something ignorant and I just don't know, it's like, okay, now I know. Unbelief is more active. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I wonder, I would be easy to acknowledge that. I'd be interested to see the implications of that. Like if you go, and I think one of the cool things about doctrine is if you go this way, one way, you're going to have a whole set of implications. But if you go the other way, you got a whole nother set of implications.
Well, maybe we can talk about it another time because it does have implications to how. We see conversions even today. Yeah, yeah, I would love that. How much is that? How much does that need to be based on who you were?
Because if you grew up in a good Christian home, maybe it's not a radical change. That's a good point. It's more of a, hey, I was ready. Yeah. Sometimes people even say, like, I don't feel like I was ever not a Christian.
Right. Now, I get what they're saying, but I do want to point. I'm like, pick a day, pick a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what they're saying is, I was never opposed to Jesus.
Yeah. Well, which just means I was born saved. Yeah. Which we know. Which is not true.
But maybe it's because. Uh, they just were in a very Christ-friendly, gospel-friendly environment. True, true. Yeah, not being able to. Remember a time before you understood who Jesus was isn't a bad thing, but you also should understand there is a discernible moment of salvation where you are receiving Jesus as your Savior.
And if you don't have one, you know, it's like, well, I hear what you're saying. I just don't have one. I just feel like I've always believed. Pick a day. Like, do it right now.
And just say, hey, Jesus, come into my life. I know you're already there, but I want to have a moment and time that I can claim as mine. That's right. And at Clearview, I'll give people the opportunity. And many people have picked dates.
Mm-hmm. over the years and said, is this going to be my Sunday that I I I claim as my defining moment even though I was already saved but I don't know when. Guys, make sure you join us next time, same time, same station. We're gonna be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors, Mighty Muskadon and the Blue Ultra Pure Water, for making today's episode possible.
Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you wanna re-listen or share it with a friend. You can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today?
So, a couple episodes ago, we teased the fact that there was some big news coming out of Prey.com.
Well, here it is. We are going to be moving just temporarily. Over to Pray Radio. Pray TV is still happening, but we're gonna be on Pray Radio for an entire month.
So we want you guys to go and listen to Dr. Shaw Monday to Friday at 8 a.m., 8 or 8:30. I think it's 8 a.m. We'll get that time squared away. But Pray Radio, this is a big, big Big deal.
And we want this to lead to more and more and more followers coming and hearing the good news of Jesus Christ.
So, Monday to Friday, Dr. Shah, this show that you're listening to right now. Will be on Pray Radio. Make sure you listen. Make sure you follow Dr.
Shah. We're closing in on 60,000 followers. Very, very blessed. Thank you for your support. Thank you for your financial giving.
We love being able to do this for you guys. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you next time. today.
