You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. Welcome to another great conversation with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Abadan Shah. Welcome, my friend. Welcome.
Thank you, and welcome back to you guys. Amen. Amen. Welcome back. Great conversation here today on the CUBE station.
Yeah, you're going to have a good time. Hey, listen, before we do get started, I want to remind you guys that Clearview Today is syndicated through the Truth Network. And so we want to encourage everybody to check out their original programming. If you're driving, if you're at work, if you're working out, or you just need some encouraging Christian talk radio, you can always find something solid to listen to 24 hours a day on the Truth Network. Big shout out to all of our friends over at the Truth Network and all of our friends listening to the show today.
That's right. Our version of the day today is coming to us from Proverbs chapter 18, verse 21. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit. Death and life. Dr.
Sha, our words are never neutral. You know, our words never don't matter. You know, they're always either positive or negative. And it says that the death and life are in the power of the tongue, which means every conversation we have has the potential to either encourage someone or tear them down. And we've been talking a lot about the power of words and dialogue and discourse, especially here these days in America.
Absolutely. I mean, you think back to Charlie Kerr, you know, he wanted to have a dialogue. He wanted to reason with people. Come to the microphone, tell me what you think. Right.
What is it that you disagree with me? With me. Prove me wrong. I mean, that's one of the last things that his campaign was all about, or his tour was all about. Prove me wrong.
That's right. And. Unfortunately, we are in America at a very negative place, which is: if I disagree with you, I just want you gone. I just want. And that's a very Eastern way of thinking that we can just do away with you.
And that is not a Western value. Yeah, it is very much the vibe of like. If we disagree, then I have to hate you. Like we are enemies now because I disagree with you. And that wasn't always the case.
It was we could have a conversation, we could disagree, we could land on opposite sides of an issue. But at the end of the day, we could still shake hands and go our separate ways. Yeah, because now everything is considered to be violent.
So if you speech is considered to be violent, is what I meant to say.
So if you say something that I disagree with, then that's violence to me. If you say America is great, but if I feel threatened when you say America is great, then that's violent for me.
So I will do whatever I can to counter that violence. And so, because, and the pernicious thing is because it's violent. Violence, I can respond in kind because you're threatening me. Right. So now when I'm actually physically violent towards you, I'm completely justified.
Right. Because you have been violent to me.
Well, I just talk to you. I'm reasoning with you. I'm debating with you. No, I get to choose the weapon. And my weapon will not be my words.
My weapon will be my gun or my hands or my knife or my stones. Whatever I can pick up to throw at you. That's my. It's crazy. Have you been reading a lot of the Babylon B articles?
Like, they are actually coming true and being played out in real life. Yeah, that's it. That's the old, uh, the old sticks and stones may break my bones, but words may never hurt me. I mean, That's not the world we're living in right now, according to some people. Exactly.
That's a crazy thing. You know, on Monday, we talked about this a little bit. We were talking about this relationship that Western civilization has because America, and you've said it yourself, that even when you came in 1991, America is almost unrecognizable from the. The World that you entered. And so we started talking about the foundations of Western civilization.
And you were talking about this relationship between Greco-Roman identity, really, Greek reason. and Judeo Christian values. For our listeners, do you want to just kind of recap what we talked about just in case they didn't hear the Monday show? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So when it comes to the foundation of our nation, we believe that there are three major foundational values or or f Foundation stones, if you want to say.
So blocks.
So the first one, I would say the center one, the major one would be the Bible. Uh years ago, a professor Did a study of all the quotations in the Constitution, and one-third of all the quotations were coming from the Bible. more specifically from the book of Deuteronomy, because that was God's charter to his people to found this nation called Israel. And that is the book the founding fathers turned to in constructing the the framework of our nation. The other two foundation blocks were classical authors, talking about Greek and Roman.
And the other one Is uh enlightenment Thinkers. And Enlightenment thinkers really not only did their own reasoning and study and philosophy and all of that, but they also were appealing to. Ancient Greek and Roman ideals. That's where sort of classical authors and enlightenment thinkers are sort of connected so. Those are the three foundational blocks with the Bible being a major one that laid the foundation of our nation.
Our nation works because of these three blocks, especially the Bible. It's kind of funny because Monday night, so we recorded that episode and it aired on Monday. Monday night, I was listening to just a playlist on YouTube and I heard a familiar voice saying something really familiar. And he said something that I wanted to get your opinion on. In fact, David, if you want to, if you want to play it real quick, we can listen.
This is Ben Shapiro on the Joe Rogan podcast. This is old. This is like from eight or nine years ago. Oh, that was nice. Is there a protest?
Well, no protests yet, but suffice it to say, the New York Times book reviewer didn't like it. He's talking about his, but the basic. Contention that I make is that Judeo-Christian values On the one hand, and then human reason on the other, Greek reason, really, that that tradition is a tension, and that that tension is where Western civilization lives. That basically, civilization is a suspension bridge. It takes certain fundamental precepts of Judeo-Christian values on the one hand, and then takes Greek reason, and they're pulling against each other.
And sometimes reason feels like it's gonna dominate religion, and sometimes it feels like religion is gonna dominate reason. But in the best of all available worlds, you have a bridge that is capable of. Building upon, where you can actually have a functional civilization. And if you lose reason in the name of theocracy, then you end up with tyrannical theocracy. And if you lose And if you lose religion in the name of reason, you end up in some pretty dark places because human beings don't have a very good track record of creating their own purpose, creating their own meaning, creating their own systems.
We tend to get very utopian very quickly, and things get really ugly, which is sort of the story of the particularly the first half of the 20th century.
So he mentions, and this is something we didn't talk about on Monday, and I wanted to get your opinions on this, Dr. Shaw. We did not mention anything about there being tension between Greek reason and Judeo-Christian values. We talked more about. They seem to work together, or at least they were together in the foundation.
Do you feel like There is any tension between these two, there's a polling against each other?
Well, just the way Uh Spurgeon was asked that question, you know. Uh So how do you How do you mediate between Calvinism and Armenianism? And I think it was Spurgeon who said, you know, I don't try to reconcile friends.
So I think the way Ben Shapiro is presenting this, and it seems like it's been years ago when he said that on the Joe Rogan show, he's pitting. Um Greco-Roman reasoning. Or more Greek reasoning against Judeo-Christian values coming from the Bible. Right. I would again say you don't have to reconcile friends.
I'm not saying for a moment that Greco-Roman people were all Bible-believing, strong Christians. Right, right. No. But they tapped into this world, this world that was Um The ideal that every society, culture, civilization should aspire to have. They tapped into it.
Why did the Greeks tap into it? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I have some ideas, but I don't think this is the show for that because it will get into speculations, and I don't want to get into all of that, historical speculation. But the Greek world forget about the Romans. The Greek considered the Romans barbarians.
Okay, so anyways, uh the Greek world tapped into this ideal where people reasoned with each other, they argued with each other, they brought their distinct philosophies and tried to to present their world view and hear your world view and come to a new solution or a framework. That's what they did. Did they always live in that world? No. I mean, look at the Peloponnesian wars between Athens and Sparta.
They they fought against each other. Right, right. Look at the Trojan War. They were fighting against each other. The Greeks fighting Greeks.
So But they did Manage. To here and there live in this beautiful world where reason and dialogue. worked. And people did not punch each other and hit each other, but they stood in front Of an assembly, and they made their case, and then the other person would make their case, and then they worked towards creating. The utopia that they wanted to, even if it was not perfect.
So, in that sense, in that timeframe, Greek culture and Greek reasoning really was the dominant force. It was kind of the ideal that everybody aspired to. Is that a question? I wouldn't even say aspire to. It's just an ideal that.
The Greeks were able to experience for A temporary period Inconsistently. And Because their writers were so amazing, whether it is Plato or even Socrates, but really you find about Socrates in Plato's works, and Aristotle, who comes and focuses more on the here and now versus Plato's ideals. You know, all these things, these writings, they wrote, they wrote a lot.
Okay, Plato's writings. And Aristotle's writings, there's a big difference.
Now Socrates didn't write, Or if you wrote, We don't have those writings. We only have what he mentioned, what Plato mentions about his teacher, Socrates. But there's a difference between Plato and Aristotle. Big difference. Big difference.
Uh Plato's writings are very Poetic. Deep. Principal based Aristotle's writings are more day-to-day sounding. Very practical. Verbose, if I may say.
Different.
So they wrote these things. And then there were other writers as well, historians like Herodotus and all that. I mean, there were many, many Greeks who wrote. And then, of course, then the Romans came along and they. Borrowed and stole and whatever, and then they created their own stuff too, you know.
So there was there was Greco Roman, but I think the Roman should be in a small R compared to the Greco.
So It's those writings that Were read by, like the Romans, they were also read by the Enlightenment thinkers. When Constantinople fell to the Turks and a lot of people went to the west towards Florence, They took with them the writings of these ancient Greeks and Romans, and they began to read them. And that led to what we know today as the Renaissance, a revival. Going back and going, wow, did you see this? Did you read this?
Wow. This has been here all these things. Yeah.
So, this is how these ancient Greeks and Romans, but ancient Greeks really lived and they thought. Look at how deep and beautiful the world is that they're describing and the different worldviews they have and the ideas they have about how to make a society wonderful and great and glorious. Oh wow, this is amazing. We need to learn from this and create something. And it's not just these writings, but also the arts also came towards The West.
And so the arts are also very inspiring. And really changed art forever in the Western world. Do you think we've strayed from that, or do you think that's gone in America? Um I think we're in this conversation, I think that's that's further down the ways down. Because ho what happened then when well the Enlightenment authors or writers and thinkers took this This world of the Greeks.
And they tried to incorporate that into the world in which they were living.
So they began to discuss. And talk about these ideals and how can we implement that? This is in England? This is in Europe. Europe, okay.
Yeah.
So you have France there, you have England there. These were the major players. And of course, Germany and all that, too, in some ways.
So all of this. This is where that ancient Greek wisdom is now coming into into discussion. What did our founding fathers do? Like Jefferson and Madison and others. When it came time to write the Constitution, they turned to the Enlightenment thinkers.
who were reading these ancient Greeks, To say, how can we now implement that in creating this new nation? We have this blank slate. How can we do this? And When they read the Enlightenment thinkers, They also saw how much they were relying on. The classical Writers and philosophers.
So they began to use those principles in constructing this nation.
So I wouldn't say that there is a tension between Like Ben Shapiro says, between Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian, I believe that. Um our founding fathers Recognize that these two things go hand in hand. That they need to come together. Not that we have to somehow make them work and they are antithetical to each other. Opposite of each other.
I don't think they are. It's not like a balancing seesaw act. Yeah, like I'm going to try to do the, if I do too much reasoning, then the religion part will become dry. If I do too much religion, then the reasoning part will become dry. No, it's, I think they work together.
And our founding fathers understood and recognized that if we're going to create a new nation, why don't we bring these two things together? Mm-hmm. And let's merge them And in the process, we'll create something. which will blow the minds of people and give us a Nation that never existed. I like the way you put it, Dr.
Shaw, because Ben Shapiro in that video talks about it as a suspension bridge, where there's a tension that is holding this structure up. It's built together, but the tension is what actually holds the thing in place. The foundation makes much more. Sense with them working together and actually being mortared together to support this idea. That's true.
I do see what he's saying. I understand his analogy, but I think you're right. I think it's more like because if the tension between those two isn't there, if there's not conflict between the two, then we don't have a nation. But I think the whole point, and maybe I'm misquoting him, but I think the whole point is that because they work together, because they're laid down in the foundation together, now we have something to build on. I do understand why he's using the suspension bridge analogy.
I believe that analogy is for people who don't understand the foundation. It is for those who don't understand the foundation. I think he is wrong in his understanding, I believe. Ben Shapiro is wrong. But I think his understanding is wrong is because it is coming from a faulty or a or an incomplete understanding of the history, foundation of our nation.
Okay. Yes, throughout history people have come and they've tried to pit reason against religion or religion against reason, but What if they're they're not Enemies. What if they're friends? I believe our nation's founders were far more intelligent. Perceptive?
Visionaries? Who understood that these two systems don't go against each other, they work well with each other.
So one of the things maybe maybe you can uh maybe you can shed some light on this, because I just had this thought, and maybe this is not the right way to think about it, but maybe he thinks that because he said in interviews before that. He he's Jewish, you know. And so the There's no pressure as far as Judaism is concerned, as far as Ben Shapiro is concerned, at least, for others to adopt Judaism. You know, this is our religion, and it's a very personal thing, and it's just for us, and it is separated from what makes America. Like, if you asked him his policies, his idea on like certain policies, he'll say, Do you want me to answer from a religious point of view or from a policy point of view?
Exactly, because they're separate. Very good point. And I wonder if that's why he says there's tension between them, but we have to balance. Whereas with us, we would say they're not separated at all because we're not Jewish, we are. Christians.
Okay, if you want to be more particular, then we are Protestants because that's the tradition from which we come, where we take the Old Testament, but it's also along with the New Testament.
So we're not locked up in some legalism or some rules and regulations that do not make sense anymore, that we've stopped doing that. We've stopped. Stoning people. Yeah.
I don't know why. Movie stop stoning people. Right, right. And so, for instance, like I again, that interview is like six years old, but so he may have changed. But I one of the things he talked about with Joe Rogan in that same interview, they talked about homosexual marriage, gay marriage.
And he said, you know, I can answer from. A religious perspective, and I can answer from a legal legislative perspective, and a religious perspective, I don't agree with it. The Bible condemns it. But this is not a Jewish nation, so I think people, yeah, gay marriage is fine. He says that.
Yeah.
And so now I'm starting to see in this conversation that we're having that maybe this conflict, there really isn't a whole lot of conflict from a, if you're. Agreeing that the foundation is Judeo-Christian specifically. Yeah, the conflict is for him. Right. Right.
Because the conflict is for him because he's looking at it as even if he says Judeo-Christian, I don't think the Christian part is quite. Real for him. Yeah, how the world view. Yeah, how could it be? Yeah, because the New Testament is a non-book for him.
Right. But for us, that's not the case. How do we see the Old Testament law? We see it as God's. rule uh because of his holiness.
This is God's law. Because of his holiness, he has given us this law. But then, because of the New Testament, we know that we're no longer under law, but under grace. But the principles still apply. Right.
So there is no conflict for me. For him, there is some kind of a conflict happening because the New Testament. is non-existent. As far as he's concerned, So then you have to look at every single issue. Almost binary, right?
Yeah.
You got to look at it like, how do I feel about this? And then what should actually happen? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's not how it works for me. Because I see the whole Old and New Testament being fulfilled in Christ. I see it as a story that is one story pointing to one hero, and the hero is Jesus Christ.
So there is no conflict for me. Right. When I read Paul, I see plenty of reasons being put forth. When Paul is in Athens in Acts chapter 17, he is reasoning with the Stoics and the Epicureans. Right.
There is no I am of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And you shall turn to the temple in Jerusalem and sacrifice. No, that's not what he's saying. Right, right. He's like, man, God has appointed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by this one man that he has appointed.
Talking about Jesus. Why, one man? Was Jesus not God? No, they knew many about gods. Right.
They knew many things about God. They just didn't know that the God was also fully man. That's a good point.
So he brings that aspect out. Mm-hmm. to to challenge the thinking of the Athenians. to realize this is not a mythology we're talking about here. These are not your gods and goddesses like Zeus and and and Poseidon and Hades or or or Aris or or um Hera.
No, you're talking about a real man. Real man. That's why he put that in there. That's right. Yeah.
That's 100%.
So. Anyways, what I'm saying here is the tension does not exist because it did not exist for the founding fathers, because they were operating from a Protestant worldview. Great point. Great point. Judeo-Christian, heavy on the Christian.
I would say Judeo-Christian balanced. But for but for um Charlie uh Ben Shapiro He may say Jude or Christian, but he's really thinking about Judeo. Mm-hmm. And and uh even though he may say the same things we say, It's not the same perspective. That makes sense.
I mean, that goes back to what we've been talking about with things like worldview. Like, you're going to see the world through a certain lens. We see it through the lens of Christ and through the Christian life. He's not going to see through that lens because he doesn't recognize Jesus as. Because there's a conflict in his mind, like, how do we apply these laws?
To not only this newfound nation called America, but also for our own lives. What do we do now? What do we do now? I mean, I guess we just hold them in suspension. Yeah.
For what? I don't know. But the moment you bring in Christ, all of a sudden that that The cock starts turning. Yeah.
So, did you see that more when you first came here? And this kind of goes back to the discourse. Argument that we were having earlier. Not argument, but the discourse line of conversation, I guess, where over the past 30 years or so, Conversation is getting harder and harder and harder, more personal, more violent, more rude. When you came here in 1991, Do you think the decay had started yet, or was it still in its prime of like, hey, We're we're P we may be on Left and right sides, but we can still hold a conversation.
The decay had begun, but it was nothing like it is today. What what do you think? Began the decay. What was the insight? I think the changing culture of America, the lack of Understanding of the people who are born and raised here.
I mean, I mean, ask yourselves that question. You know, before you all came here, how much were you totally aware of the historical foundation of our nation? I mean, practically zero. Right. My high school history class.
Yeah.
Right. And and not that you didn't believe that. If somebody said, hey, this is a Christian nation, you'd be like, yeah, sure. But how much would you be able to explain that? It wasn't even something that I would have cared about.
I would have just taken it as, you know, okay, cool. Yeah, it's a Christian nation. And then also the makeup of our nation because of immigration, a lot has changed over the years. And because of immigration policies, again, I'm an immigrant, but I come with a very different worldview. I come with a Christian worldview.
I come with a worldview that says that this nation was founded on biblical values. Not that it was not Uh infused with the best ideals of the Greek world or Enlightenment thinkers who may not be Christians, but they were really thinking and studying and using the best knowledge they had to create something. No, I I do allow for that. But I also know that the big foundation stone was the Bible. Right.
So I am. And there are many like me who come as immigrants, especially from African countries. If they're Christians, they're very pro-American. That's true. It's kind of funny.
Yeah.
Christians, even from India, if they're Christians, they're very pro-America. It's the other religions that come here, or non-religions that come here, even from Europe or South America, who come with very socialist Marxist ideas. They they don't get it. And that has been definitely made an impact. on how people View our nation, how much they appreciate this nation.
Because they don't want to just live in this nation. It's like, okay, I don't hold to these American ideals, but I'll live peaceably among them. They want to. Actively change what our nation is relying upon. But they don't understand changing it.
Is that an option? Yeah.
Changing it means removing that major foundational block, which means it's all coming collapsing. Right. That's the way a foundation works. If you start to mess with that, everything's coming toppling down. Right.
We as Christians in America have to speak out And and stand up for The truth, truth about the history, the foundation of our nation, truth about the Christian values and why they matter. We have to speak out not in hate. But we have to preserve this. We have to protect it. That's true.
It's worth protecting. Yeah.
And so I've preached on this many times before. That hey, everybody's welcome. But just know that you cannot tamper with this motor. That's right. You know, get on the bus.
But if I see you tampering under the motor, then I have to say something because I'm not going to be like, oh, well, guys, you know, the bus was great so far, and maybe it'll become greater if we let every person, you know, get up under the hood and do what they want to do. No, they're tearing things up. Right. That's right. One of the greatest resources for people to do this is your devotional 30 Days of Praying for America because it walks through so expertly through American history.
And it's so. Incredible to see. It's not just like, pray for this group of people in America, pray for our leaders, pray for the government. And that's in there, but it's a much more comprehensive look at American history. Why did you choose that approach?
Because uh i I we really wrote it for our children, right? I mean, that was the underlying heart behind it, that one day they will read it and study it and know where mom and dad stood or what we believed. Uh and so we wrote it with them in mind, but we re we wrote it for the For the church at large and Americans at large, we wrote for all people to read that and to rethink what has been taught over the years. or what you're finding on social media. or hearing some university professor say, Stop.
Reconsider. That's right. Because there is. A better explanation. For wha what makes America so wonderful?
That's right. And worth preserving. Great point. So that's one reason we wrote that book. I love it.
That's right. If you haven't picked up a copy yet, I would encourage you to pick that up. It's a great devotional resource.
So it's set up with 30 days. There's some journaling spaces in there, 30 days of praying for America. It is a wonderful way to walk through American history and to know how you, as a believer, can make an impact. Our nation today. That's exactly right.
It's available on Amazon.com right now. We'll go ahead and leave a link in the description so you can pick up your copy today. That's right. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clear Beat Today show.
Thanks again to our sponsors, LeBlue, Ultra Pure Water, and Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring today's episode. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Prey.com, where do you get your podcast from? You can also support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today? Definitely want to just let you know that some really, really cool news is coming out through Pray.com in just a week.
It'll probably be early, early next week that we let you guys know, but we'll post about it. You'll definitely be seeing it on Pray.com, but some big, big things happening behind the scenes. If you have not, gone ahead. And follow Dr. Shah on Prey, make sure you go ahead and do that.
Dr. Abadan Shah, we already passed 50,000 followers, we are closing in on 60,000. Thank you to everybody who has followed us, who is giving. We could not do what we're doing without your support and without Jesus Christ.
So we want to keep getting that message into the airwaves as much as we can. Mm. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear Vee Today.
