You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show.
All of our faithful listeners, we got a great week of content. Happy Monday, by the way. Happy, happy Monday. Starting the week off right with the word of God. But before we do that, we want to welcome our host with the most, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, the host of today's show. We got to give it up. It's going to be a great week, Dr. Stah. Yes, it is.
Yes, it is. It's good to be here. It's going to be an exciting week coming up. Amen.
So, one quick thing I want to say before we jump in: we are really getting close to 50,000 followers on Prey.com. We are getting really close.
So, before we dive in, I want to let everyone know: if you're listening to us on the radio, through the Truth Network, through the podcast app, Spotify, Dr. Shah is on Prey.com. It has exclusive content that's there.
So, we really, really want to direct people to really two main sources of our content. Number one is Abadan Shah.com. Make sure you go there, but also Prey.com. You can listen to his sermons, devotionals, biblical teaching, exclusive shows, all of that stuff anywhere, anytime. It's 100% free.
That's right. Prey.com is free and it's free to access all of Dr. Shaw's content. There's some stuff that's that's behind a paywall with Prey, but the base content and most importantly, all of Dr. Shaw's content is free, including this show.
And Dr. Shaw, if I may, I would like to brag on Prey.com just a little bit because, you know, you and Prey have a very, very great relationship. We have, and I have you guys to thank for that. Oh, thank you. That was more Ryan because we went to NRB and Prey wasn't even on my radar.
Well, it worked out well because I knew that I wanted to go talk to the guys at Prey, and then we were just kind of standing admiring a display outside of their booth, and then they came out to talk to us. Fast forward to now, we have reps, we have marketing reps that keep close relationships with us. And so one of them. um texted us a couple weeks back and said hey i'm going to be in north carolina I want to take you guys out to dinner. Dr.
Shaw was right in the middle of our summer Bible study, which is exploring Christianity through England. And so he said, Hey, you and Ryan go and let me know how the dinner goes.
So we get there last night, right, Dr. Shaw? First off the bat, Very, very professional, very classy. They showed up with a bouquet of flowers for my wife who had just given birth. Oh, that is very nice.
A very nice card. We put that card in our little, um, in our little like baby box, and we're going to keep it. But very, very nice guys. They go in, the first thing they say is, Hey, guys, order whatever you want because it was a nice restaurant. And so I'm looking, and I see this like Bolognier's like pasta, which is like, that's, of course, where I'm going.
The waitress comes out and says, So, one of our specials tonight is this seafood pasta with crab and a lobster tail on top. And I was like, Ooh, that sounds good. And she then she said the The price. I'm not gonna lie. I didn't like it.
Yeah. And I'm a guest.
So in my mind, I was like, okay, that's out. I'm not ordering something at that price. And so I think when I was looking at the mini, because they saw me perk up, the guys from Pray, and they were like, you should get it. I was like, I'm going to get this. And they kept pushing.
They were like, no, get it. If you want it, get it. And I was like, ah. Uh I really, and I just was like, I'm not a huge fan of like lobster and crab. That's not true.
I love lobster crab. But I was like, I think I'm going to get the Bologniers, because the Bolognese was like legitimately half that price. Wow. Special was expensive. Yeah.
So the guy beside me was like, hey. I want that, but I don't want the pasta. I just want the lobster tail and I want steak.
So he got a steak and the lobster tail. Yeah. He ordered his meal, but he's like, I'd like to add a lobster tail, which was an optional middle. Yeah, you could. You'd like to add a lobster tail to the meal.
So, wow.
So then everybody got their. Order. They went back. The waitress comes back with all the food and goes, Hey, I don't know what happened. There was a mix-up, but they just made the special anyway.
So you guys can just have it. Yep. Really? Yeah, I ended up with two dinners.
So instead of the lobster tail to the side, he got the bowl of pasta with a lobster tail perched on top. Man, so then it was like this weird thing where he was like, Okay, now that's the meal that he that I really wanted. But I had the actual meal I ordered and then the meal that I actually wanted for free.
So they were like, What do we? I was like, You take the lobster tail, I'll take the crab-like pasta. And I took it home to Ellie, and she actually ate it before. Good for you, good for Ellie. It was, yeah, she ate it.
Good for Ellie. Good for Ellie. It was funny how it all worked out because we were joking for a while about that pasta. Like, oh man, that sounds really good. And then, you know, John decided to go a different route.
And they're like, oh, you should have gotten the pasta. You just don't want to be a guest. And yeah, I maybe, but like, you just don't want to be a guest. And maybe you can speak to this too, Dr. Shay.
You don't want to be a guest.
Someone's taking you out to dinner and then you order like the most expensive presented to you. Yeah. That's poor form. Even if they're like cajoled, they're like, Go on, get it, get it, get it. I feel like the moment you get it, they're like, Maybe they wouldn't, but you don't want to.
So, Proverbs 23, verse 2 says, When you sit to dine with a ruler, Note well what is before you, and put a knife to your throat. If you are given to gluttony.
So when you're tempted to reach in and grab that and keep eating and make a big deal out of that food, don't do that. It's bad form. It's not good. The Bible says crazy it says in the Bible, put a knife to your throat. It's better off to eat.
Like the cheapest thing. And then leave there. Let's stop somewhere and have a big meal. Don't do that in front of everybody. I agree.
I agree with you. And you know what? I think God agrees with us too because He blessed that dinner table. That's right. Rewarded for following that principle.
I won't say the name of the restaurant, but I'll say this: it was the. The best food I've had in the delicious. I was thinking maybe Dr. Shah, after this, maybe you and me ride up there will. We can do that.
Now we can get it.
Well, you already got it, so now I can get it. Yeah, it's really good. Highly recommended. There you go. Our verse today comes to us from Jeremiah chapter 17, verse 7.
But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him. They will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes, its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit. Too many pastors out here, Dr.
Shah, wanting the big, glamorous, successful stage, the successful ministry. I would even say the successful impact without devoting their entire lives to it. You know, I like what he says. It's the one whose confidence he will be like a tree planted by water. You know, trees are not wandering creatures.
There's something that once it's there, it's there. And Dr. Shah, you've been here at this church for 30-something years now, right? 27 years now. 27 years.
We came here in 1998. I was only a youth pastor at the time. And in 1999, I was called to come as the pastor of the church.
So, from if you want to count from 98 till 2000. 25, then that's what 27 years? Yeah, 27 years. Going on 30 years. First and only church.
First and only church. You saw that modeled in your father as well. Yes. That was his first and only church. He came there, I want to say, in 1965.
Four or sixty-two? I think sixty-two. Yeah, 62. And he passed away. In twenty twenty one, So, that would make it what 59 years?
Yes, I think so. Wow. That's that's incredible. That's a legacy. Right?
59 years, correct? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible.
An incredible example of just faithfulness, of patience, of trust in the Lord, and just, you know, allowing God to keep you somewhere. We talk all the time about God leading you somewhere, but allowing God to keep you somewhere. Right. We always want God to bring us to the destination. We don't want God to take us on a journey.
Just God, put me at the finish line. That's right. So I can spend the rest of my years celebrating this victory. Yeah. You know, that's one thing that uh Nicole and I prayed when we first came here.
And initially it was not easy because the church had gone through many, many pastors in there uh at the time and what I'm talking about. The church was founded in 1944. And we came there in 2028.
So I'm sorry, 1998.
So do the math there. How many years is that? 54, 64, 74, 84, 94, 2004.
So you're looking at maybe a little over 50 some years. Yeah. So They had gone through so many pastures, gone through ups and downs, And a lot of pastors made a lot of promises and then when things would get difficult or a more lucrative offer would come, they would sort of make their way out.
So now people had invested, spent their money, used the bank balance because they're thinking, now we're going to really grow with this new program and this new Pastor who has a heart for the community. And then he's packing up and leaving.
So when I said the same thing, they were not ready for that. It's really crazy because I didn't even get a chance to read the check-in. I promise everybody, Dr. Shuddh did not read the check-in before we sat down to record this. Dr.
Shah, we got a message from someone on prey.
Okay. And it's. I mean, you almost pretty much read it verbatim.
So I want to read it. This is from Matt R. from Texas. I think this is from, he didn't say what city, just from Texas. Hey Dr.
Shaw, my name is Matt. I'm a young pastor. I've been bouncing around from church to church. At first, each new place feels extremely exciting, almost like I've finally found what I've been looking for. But then the more I get involved in the church, the more I start noticing things under the surface that turn me off.
Sometimes it's the people, sometimes it's the elder leadership, sometimes it's the worship. Honestly, I never really feel satisfied anywhere, and I'm starting to wonder if the problem isn't these churches, but me. What would you say to someone like this? Wow. First and foremost, it's at least good that you see, like, maybe it's me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, most people, I feel like, wouldn't arrive. Winnie wouldn't say that.
Well, you know, just realize that if it were easy, everybody would be doing it. You know, that's one of those principles I heard. in my workplace years ago. And so just realize that it is difficult. Especially if you're dealing with a church that is struggling, church that may have issues, it is tough.
And so, You have to pray about it. Pray and seek if If God is in this, and if God has a purpose for you here. And once you know that. Once you feel it, then forget about everything else. Don't worry about Feelings because feelings will go in and out.
Don't worry about circumstances, people, opposition. Just let it go. Once you have the confirmation, I think God is here.
Now, if you sit there and say, I need another confirmation, I need another sign, then you will change your mind because sooner or later something else will come along and you'll be like, Yeah, I thought so, but not anymore. But once you've been given a confirmation, you're set. Mm-hmm. And that's how my dad was when he came to the church where I grew up. Really?
And that's how. The same model I followed. And It was really the year was 2000 and not actually 2000. 2000. Yeah, because in 1999 I came as a pastor.
And I was already there in 1998, but In 99 came as a pastor. A month or so later, I proposed a plan for growth. People rejected the plan. It's not because they were hateful. They just Didn't think It's going to work.
Yeah. And they were very kind, and they said, You know, just Move on when you're ready. Right. And we expect you to go on and find a better place. I've heard you share this story before, and that is the most heartbreaking outlook I think I've ever heard.
Because they just, I mean, the people at that time were just like, we're just a stepping stone. We're not, we're not going to grow. This is all we're capable of. This is all God's going to use us for to just set someone up. For the next phase in their life.
That's just, it's so sad to me. Yeah. In a sense, they were saying, why would. this be the place anymore to help Change the community or touch people's lives. This place is done.
We've kind of had our day, and this is not anymore.
So You know, once God gave me that confirmation, it came to my dad. Mm-hmm. I called him up and I said, you know, we're thinking about moving. We're thinking about Maybe I may go back and get more education, which I ended up doing anyways. How?
Go ahead. But we're thinking about pulling out, and that's when my dad said, you know, if you listen to me, I'll tell you. I said, of course. I'll listen to you. And he said Stay there, don't run, because you're going to run all your life.
And what you'll find is that the same problems that you're running from here will follow you there. The same struggles you have here will follow you there. What you're thinking is: it's just the circumstances, it's just the people, it's just that person. And it's not that. It's you.
I think that's what this young pastor is discovering here.
Something I've never asked you about that story, because I've heard that story so many times. How How certain were you of what you of your Desire to leave. And what I mean by that is: was this like, I'm just really frustrated? I'm kind of venting to my dad and complaining? Or was this like, I've made my mind up, we need to leave.
I want my dad's blessing. or somewhere in between. I think it was more of a I was hurt. Mm. You know, when somebody doesn't trust your leadership, So then you realize: well, I'm in this position, but that position means absolutely nothing.
This is just This is just a chaplaincy. This is not a. A I'm not a pastor. I'm just a chaplain. Do you think that's common in churches?
Do you think that's why a lot of, especially young pastors who are looking for this, find that the pastor. Office. Has little authority in those churches. And so, therefore, and not authority like I'm in charge, but like I can't do anything. Yeah.
The things that I'm trying to do in this community, I'm being stopped. Yeah, there's just red tape, everything is stalled, or everything is just sent to a committee, and then it just kind of dies there.
Now, in our situation, it was more. A lack of hope. Yeah. But in many churches, it's more than that. It's not just lack of hope, it's control issues.
Uh traditions uh refusal to allow outsiders to come. because they're afraid the outsiders may come and change things and then their family that is still there, they may not be strong enough to oppose the outsiders changing their way of life or their their churches. In their traditions and the way they like things to be.
So there are some ulterior motives happening there, too, control issues. I want to try to make an observation, Dr. Shah, and maybe you can correct it, or maybe you can kind of just let me know what you think about it. But over the years, working with you, we have met lots of successful pastors. Yeah.
And we've talked with people. Who we've just talked with people all over the map as far as like churches, congregations, pastors. And it seems to me, and I don't know if I'm correct on this. But it seems like churches. that have a strong pastor that has an authoritative Yeah.
I don't know if not authoritative in the sense of you will do what I say, but a strong vision, and the pastor is more or less driving the church. end up doing better. than churches and making more impact is what I mean. Than churches who are like, hey, The pastor preaches, the church is run by elders. It seems like those churches typically.
Do you have the same level of impact? I'm trying to treat yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I would say just because you have elders in your church does not mean That those elders are running the church. It all depends on the context. I mean, I mentioned this before, John Piper, right?
At Bethlehem Baptist Church. He has elders. Who in the world in John Piper's elder group will oppose John Piper? Nobody. John MacArthur.
At his church until he passed away, he was he had elders who ruled.
Now, who in the world would dare say John MacArthur? We're gonna do things differently. And you're just gonna have to sit there and take it.
Now, he even says that. It's like, well, you know, I don't the elders make all the decisions. But come on, which one of the elders, if John MacArthur says tomorrow, this is a series we're gonna do? That they will say, No, you're not. It doesn't work like that.
So, even in those churches, it's usually the person.
Okay, not your group that makes that decision. Why is that important? Because we think that that and it's is it really coming from A western when I say western, I'm talking about. The the European understanding that came through the Reformation, that one man should not stand for you before God. We need to have plurality there.
We need to have more than one person. It's really a distrust of the Roman Catholic Church. that brought about this push for Um elders. Calvin's Reasonings for eldership, okay. It's quite funny, really.
He is not. Using biblical arguments. He is using The existing situation of the church. That's a great point. Because a lot of times people will grab scripture verses, grab references, and say, see, the Bible talks about elders, the Bible talks about these overseers that hold the pastor accountable.
But when you look at where that argument originated, it's really a pushback against the authority of the Pope. That's right. And that's what they were. That's what Calvin's reasoning was in his Institutes. Against now, of course, he uses verses here and there, but overall, the real motive behind it.
Was He was Fighting like many of the people at the time against the Roman Catholic Church. But even to your point, like. Those like John Piper, John MacArthur, those churches. are doing well because there's a person, there's a pastor who's pushing the vision forward.
So even though they have elders, the elders are not working against the pastor. Like what does happen, or I would assume, happens in lots of churches where the elders or Even just church people, maybe it's not appointed elders, maybe it's just the congregation is working to keep the pastor from fulfilling the vision. Yeah, and you can call it deacons. I mean, you know, I believe deacons were servant leaders, right? At Clearview, we have deacons who do the work of ministry, like family ministry, or having a certain number of people under them, under their watch care.
And then we have trustees, we have finance directors, finance committee, we have building committees.
So, you know, we have those people. People go, oh, that's just a secular model. That's a secular model.
Okay. Um then you shouldn't have any finance. people if you don't find it. Through a CPA. Why do you have audits?
When in the world did you see that in the New Testament church that they had audits?
So come on. If we make that kind of argument, then. uh you know, whatever you're is tit for tat, whatever you're saying is happening wrong with us is also happening wrong with you. That's right, that's right. The real reason was a lack of trust in having that one man stand between you and God.
But we're not doing that. Right. We believe in the priesthood of believers. We believe that every person has equal access before God. We're not trying to be the mediator between God and people.
Yeah, because my question would be then to those people, if they said, no, one person should not be at the head of the church. Why do the churches that we see do so well have that model? Right. You've talked about this before, Dr. Shaw, but most of the time, people are going to follow a personality instead of an entity.
They're not going to follow an organization. They're going to follow a person. I don't know. To your point, like, and I'm not saying this just to prove a point or just to show my ignorance. I don't know what John MacArthur's church is called.
I'm sure his fans do, but I know he made an impact. I don't know what John Piper's church is called. I don't. And I know there's tons of people who do, but I think that goes to your point: I know those names. Those names have made a great impact.
Absolutely. And that's, again, should cause us to step back and say, okay, then we should not be pushing the elder model so much. Maybe it soothes our conscience to maybe honor our ancestors to say, hey, we bow to you because, you know, you fought the good fight 300 years ago.
So now we are. Do I have a beef against churches that have elder rule? Not really. If that's what y'all want to do. Go for it.
You missed be playing the game. But you still have that one person who is your pastor who's really leading. And, um You say accountability, accountability. The Bible never talks about elders holding the pastor accountable. I mean, that's not the reason.
Yeah, they had elders, but it was not for the reason that. The post-Reformation church has latched on to the elder rule. It's for accountability purposes. It never says that. Right.
It never ever says that. Yeah. The elders in the church were to be servants, servant leaders.
Well, no, those were the deacons. I'm sorry. Yeah. The elders really. To me, the elders today are the pastoral staff.
Gotcha. Those are really the elders. He said, What if they're young?
Well, then Paul tells Timothy.
So, you guys are elders, okay? We have a pastoral team. Y'all are functioning as elders. Elders does not mean elderly. Do you think people just latch on to those positions because they sound authoritative?
Like, so, for instance, the pastoral team, I guess that sounds sort of authoritative, but elders, like, that's got some air. Because you have some mature people who are now. deciding the direction of the church. Because we do not want, we do not want people who are not committed to the gospel, not committed to the body of Christ. uh easily led astray.
We don't want those kind of people leading a congregation because that can be disastrous.
Well, you I don't want to mention names, but in many of the elder led churches, the pastors were Doing things that were not right. That's true. That's true. And your elders are holding them accountable. What happened there?
Right. Well, we dropped the ball.
Okay. Yeah. That's the other side. It's not a foolproof system. Right.
Right. That's right. The problem is human depravity. Human beings will find a way to sin. They will find a way to sin.
You can meet every week and say, Hey, so how is your life today? How is your sex life? How is your spiritual walk? How is your devotional life? That's great.
They will tell you, Oh, yeah, it's great. We're doing great. And then Go behind your back and do things. Yeah, absolutely. Haven't we seen that in recent years?
Well, 100%. Yeah, because if you're going to do something that you want to cover up, you're going to use a lesser, I use air quotes, lesser sin to lie and cover it up. If you're willing to do the bad stuff, you're going to do the not quite as bad stuff to. Covered up. Sin is a terrible, terrible thing.
And I say that with humility because. You know, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
So it can happen to me.
So I say that with humility, knowing that the enemy is powerful. It's only by the grace of God, it's only by the life of Christ in me, it's only by the direction of the Holy Spirit in my life that I can withstand the temptations of life, that I can withstand my own sin nature. that I can withstand the lures of the world. Sin is terrible. Sin will lure you in.
I mean, look at King David. Look at what happened to him. Yeah. A man who wrote Psalm twenty three. a man who fought Goliath as a young lad, was so easily Tempted.
And before he knew it, he was. Killing people. Just to s to cover up his sin. I know we always like to talk about how he was forgiven and how he. Let's come to that later.
But in the process, How terrible a sin he committed. Yeah, you got to deal with that. Yeah. So, what I'm saying here is. Um As a pastor, I know you brought up the elder issue.
I believe. That one man God has called to lead the church should. Should really examine his heart and know that if this is what God has called you to do, then it's settled. It's settled.
Now you have to live there, serve that community. I told our church. years ago. This is like in Two thousand and um Five. When we were losing people because of the location of our church, just couldn't grow.
We were in a sort of a very Drug-infested type community, and it was a lot of crimes happening, so people were afraid to come there. And the local community was very transient, still is in some ways, and they were not coming to the church.
So I told them, I said, look, I will stay here no matter what decision we make. But I really want us to consider. Selling this building and moving out. And I know that's a big ask. And I've been here since 1998, 1999 as a pastor.
This is 2005.
So, how many years has it been? Like seven years now? Mm-hmm. I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving either way.
I'm staying here the rest of my life. But I want us to consider. And in two weeks, they came back and said, yeah, we're going to sell it. Wow. Wow.
I don't want to say Knock down, drag out fights, but close. Yeah. Wow. When somebody. in the past brought up The idea of selling the church and moving out.
I mean, it was like, ooh, it was bad. No way. Don't bring that up. But here I'll bring it up. but seven years, knowing my commitment, They felt like Yeah.
And the church didn't sell. It did not sell for two more years from 2005 to the end of 2007. And we would have congregations come and look at it, and then they would go back, didn't have the money, blah, blah, blah. And so. I didn't leave.
I wasn't like, okay, it didn't sell. This is 2006. It didn't sell 2007. You know what? I'm out.
So, would you say to a young pastor like Matt who's writing in that maybe the reason that the office of the pastor isn't fulfilling or satisfying for you is because you have not put in the time to earn your people's trust? Oh, yeah, I would say, to some extent. They have to see that genuine commitment in you. Don't be enamored by those uh famous TV personalities, or those pastors who have, you know, 50,000 followers or 1 million followers or whatever, and they're doing, you know, This and that and the other. You're like, man, I want to be like them.
If I want to be like them, I would need to go here or there.
Now if your community is such that There is absolutely zero possibility for growth. There are four people in the town And three churches. I mean, only four people in the town and three churches? Yeah, then maybe. Maybe, I mean, and the fourth person is the pastor.
All the other three is town with four pastors. Yeah. So maybe at that point, maybe you need to consider. They're all fighting over one congregant. Yeah, just go, you know?
Yeah. At that point. At that point, maybe you just need to roll. But if there is possibility for growth. And it may not be like I have 10,000 people.
It may be. Two hundred.
Okay. then maybe you need to really pray and say, God, if this is the place That I'm staying no matter what happens. And if it's going to move, it's because you're going to literally move me. That's right. Yeah.
I love it, man.
So good. The power is staying. I love that so much. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show.
Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen. You can also support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, land the plane for us. Just definitely want to encourage you guys to follow drshawanpray.com.
All of our exclusive content is there. We're about to wrap up one of our most successful shows, which is Discerning Doctrine. And after that, we got a couple of brand new shows and brand new Bible studies coming your way. You'll be hearing more about that in the Pipeline. We also have Dr.
Shah's new book, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges, is releasing sometime this fall. We'll keep you up to date with an exact date, but we definitely want you to be on the lookout for that book. That's right, we love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
