You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Thank you guys so much for joining us on the Clearview Today Show.
We got a great show for you guys today, great conversation as we're wrapping up. One of the things the most influential talks and discussions that we've had. We have not been reading a lot of the viewer comments. There's been a lot of them, but I was hoping maybe after today's episode, we could go through all of them. But a lot of people, a lot, a lot of people have been benefiting from the conversation we've been having.
So big thank you. Go ahead. One of the most influential. Oh, very nice, Ryan. I didn't even do that.
That was pun set. I see that was it. And I like it. That was pun after the fact. Guys, we are welcoming our host with the most, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Jobs. Welcome, welcome, welcome. What is that? That's the fish from SpongeBob who gets hurt.
Hang on. My lane! My lane! Oh my goodness. It was a live studio audience applause, drum roll, air horn, and then the fish from wow.
Dr. Shaw, Ryan, welcome to the studio. I have a game that I want to play with you guys. This is the Bible Guess It game, backed by Popular Demand. A lot of people really, really love when we play this game.
A lot of people like playing at home. The only thing is, I'm playing with a Bible scholar and I'm playing with Ryan as well, who teaches the youth.
So a lot of these get solved. But basically, if you've never played the Bible Guess It game before, this is from the Action Bible. You get 15 clues to try to guess the person, place, or thing.
So, Dr. Shah, Ryan, this is an object.
Okay, I'm going to describe to you an object. The clues are going to start extremely vague. And they get more and more obvious as it goes down. This is an object, it's a physical thing. The New Testament describes my purpose.
My construction was directed by the Levites. Oh, like a temple? Close, very close. Tabernacle, it was the tabernacle. Yeah, got it into very nice, very cool.
All right, this is a person, Jesus.
Somehow, he did it. No, no, I saw a fire. Moses? No, no. I usually follow Matthew.
Hmm. I went with Jesus to see Lazarus. Follow Peter? Not Peter. This is John.
I didn't know where Jesus was going. Thomas. Thomas. Yep. This is Thomas.
I usually follow Matthew. I don't know what that means. Yeah, I guess in the list of disciples. Oh, uh-oh. I know that.
That's all I can think of. You know what? I think you're right because it has multiple references. It's Mark 3:18 and Luke 6.15.
So probably when they line the disciples up. They're pretty. That was a tough one. They're a little unforgiving with those early clues. Yeah, the way they put it, it's like follow Matthew.
But the first follow Matthew in a list given by Luke. Yes. The first ones are really vague and obscure. That's why I'm saying, like, it's impressive that you guys are getting them in the third and fourth clues.
Okay, well, last one. Last one. This is relevant to the discussion we had yesterday. It's a person. I'm a man.
of the soil. Uh Adam? Close. Close-ish. Definitely Genesis.
Than Noah? Yeah. Man of the soil. It was Adam. It was Noah.
Yeah. So the ones went, Jesus spoke about me. This is the third clue. I once drank way too much. Understatement of the century there.
That kind of lines up with what we're going to talk about today. That's right. But that's don't do that because. One day we'll be talking about you on a show. That's bad.
You don't even want to be the subject of the radio show in this life. If you didn't listen to the Friday show or yesterday's show, bad things can happen, man. Don't do it. Learn from Noah. Learn from Lot.
Our verse of the day today is coming from John chapter 1, verse 17. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. One of the things, Dr. Shah, that we mentioned last week was we tend to think that a verse like this: law was given through Moses, law, bad. Grace and truth, good.
Jesus makes things more lenient and he gives grace. And so now we have a lot more room to do stuff we want to do. When really, what we see is the exact opposite, where the law says, hey, don't do this. Jesus comes along and says, really, really, really don't do this. But grace and truth, we tend to think of those as.
More leniency and more freedom. Right. And it's just not the case. Law. Of course, we are not under law, we're under grace.
The Bible very clearly says that. But grace was even then there in the Old Testament. The fact that God did not obliterate his people tells us that there is grace. Right. And I'm not talking about the other tribes.
I mean, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Why didn't God destroy them? He could have, but he didn't. That's God's grace. God could have completely scrapped the whole plan of salvation.
He didn't. That's grace.
So the coming of Jesus Christ was not to now bring grace. It was simply to say, now grace is available to all. It was always available to all, but now it's like the floodgates are open that anyone can come directly. They don't have to become. Jewish, they don't have to keep the law in order to then come.
to Christ. In the Old Testament, it was The law was sort of like You know, keeping them in place in check until he would come. But it was never through the law that they would have salvation. That's right. That's right.
So if somebody was a God-fearer, or if somebody was a Gentile, a they would still have to come by way of the law. and keep the law Like a Jewish person, like an Israelite, like a Hebrew, and then in time. Of course, they will be part of God's family. And they would be now believing in the One who is coming, But they would have to keep the law in the meantime. We don't have to do that.
Big difference.
So that system of sacrifices and rituals and all those things Are no longer applicable, but the principles still stand. Right, that's right. You know, we've been talking a lot about the Christian life, especially with regards to alcohol. And we've laid out, I mean, of course, we've laid out all of our reasons and our thoughts on alcohol based on what the Bible says, based on how the Bible actually laid out what alcohol was like in those days and how monstrously elevated the alcohol contents are now. And yet, still, Dr.
Shah, people always pull out the same defense, the same one every time. It's always, it's never from Proverbs, it's never from the Old Testament. It's always, but Dr. Shah, don't you know? Jesus himself turned water into wine.
He wouldn't lead his people to do something that was sinful. Right. The implication is Jesus used that as a miracle, so that must mean he condones it, right? Right. Right.
And in our present day, when people are searching for more masculine characters to emulate or to feel manly, they want to portray Jesus as manly, which is fine. I'm not against that. Right. And that's fine to do that. But I think in trying to be.
So manly in finding a manly Jesus, they also want that manly Jesus to have a A can of beer in his hand. Yes, they want Leonard Skinner Jesus. Yeah, they want a Jesus who's laughing and carrying on, not the Jesus meek and mild, just holding little babies. The little lamb and doing this thing. Yeah, yeah.
And they want the manly one.
So put some beer in his hand, watch him laugh like he's drunk, or at least. Inebriated. That now I can follow that Jesus. Right. He's hanging out with the boy.
Jesus hanging out with the boys. He likes trucks. He likes trucks and he likes drinking music. Cold beer on a Friday night. Jesus has a pair of jeans that fit just right.
That's what he likes. And he's playing pool.
Somehow. That's my G. He's hustling people inside. He hit the shot, he doesn't get it, but he just kind of moves the ball inside. And then people are like, How did you do that?
Let me tell you something. You're lost and dying. You need to be born again. You see how I put that in the pocket?
Now I need you to put you in God's pocket. I need to move you into the pocket of salvation. That's right. If you get Jesus juked by the Lord Himself, that's done. Game over.
I think people. Your spiritual ankles are broken. That's rough. I think people really. Have this idea of the trump card where Jesus is like, in your argument, if drinking is a sin, then Jesus.
Turned water into wine, and he says, All right, have at it, but you better not drink it because that's a sin to drink it. But I've turned it into wine, so go for it. But don't you drink it. People think they have you trapped in this like logical fallacy where it's like Jesus turned water into wine, therefore he's okay with people drinking.
Well, we need to back up to John chapter 2 because that's where this miracle happens. And read some of the descriptions of this miracle. In John chapter 2 and verse 11, it says, This beginning. of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, And manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him. The key word there is signs.
Okay, it comes from the Greek word semion, and John the Apostle used this word for Jesus' miracles. The other Gospels talk about miracles. John talks about signs, and then he ends his gospel, John chapter 20, verse 30. And truly, Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Signs That word Simeon or that concept is found many times in the Bible. You know, we never, and I don't want to get off track, but this is just a fun piece of information for people listening. We never put it out, but we filmed a seven-part series on the seven signs in Israel. That's right. And the very first place we, well, it wasn't the first place we went, but one of the first places we filmed was in Canaan.
Canaan of Galilee. We've actually been to this place where Jesus. Do you want to talk about what that was like? Oh, yeah, it was quite amazing. Just to, we got there sort of late in the evening and things were shutting down.
And so we were in the chapel, which is considered to be the place where this wedding feast took place. And then later on, they built a chapel or church on top of that. Right. And it may have been.
somewhere else. I think many of these places Were where they said they were. Because when Constantine's mother, Helena, when she went across the Holy Land, this is going back to the fifth century, she began to ask the locals, where did this happen? Where did that happen? And they would say, well, the church is there because it happened there.
And so then she would build. a bigger church on top of that. That happened with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Church of the Nativity. These are chapels that she. Expanded because It happened there.
So we went there in Cana to the place, which is considered to be the place where Jesus turned water into wine. We were struggling for light. I remember that. Yeah. I remember they had the city lit up with these little, with these little string lights.
Yeah. They were actually kind of powerful, but like we had a bunch of Sony's, which were really good in low light. I'm glad we took them. But I remember we were struggling for light. And there was one point where we had to all take our cell phones and put the flashlights on here.
So we could, but we were doing a Bible study series on the seven signs. And one day I hope to release that series. Yeah, I think we will. We will do that very soon. Yeah.
But the idea of signs is found even in the Old Testament.
So going back to Genesis 9, Jesus God said, or maybe Jesus said, I set my rainbow in the cloud and it shall be for the sign of the covenant. between me and The earth. In Deuteronomy chapter 26, verse 8: So the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, with great terror, and with signs and wonders. Very important. The idea of signs, is that different than a miracle, or is it a special category?
Well, just signs. Think about signs. Sign is something that points to something else. Mm-hmm. Like driving down the road.
You see a sign. It tells you this city or this town is this way, or the place you're going to, like Atlantic Beach. Here's the sign. to Atlantic Beach doesn't mean that you pull over the moment you see the sign and get under the sign and then I am at Atlantic Beach. We made it.
We made it. Yeah. Kids, get out your blankets, go play in the sand, go get in the water. All you're gonna find is like some you know, homeless guys stuff or or broken Bottles or nasty diapers. I mean, that's all you'll find under those signs.
But it says it: we're here. We made it. It's telling you, go down this way now. Right. So, also with the signs in the Bible, like Isaiah 7:14, it was prophesied, Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign.
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel. Virgin birth was a sign. That's right. that when you see someone being born just through that woman, with no interaction with the male, Something is going on. Yeah.
And so, when they heard about Mary being pregnant of the Holy Spirit, they said, that's a lie. And then they realized, wait, that's not a lie. Could this be the one? And for them to still doubt and go, no, I'm not sure because Nazareth is no place for the king of kings or the Messiah.
Okay, now you're looking for reasons to not believe the signs. That's right. Now you're ignoring the signs, and you're going to miss your turn off the road. There's an element of faith that is involved, and you're refusing to place your faith in this one.
Well, I can't. Look at him. Look at the. The ragtag group of people with him. Look at him.
He's hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes. How can he be the one? Right. So there's a miracle that happens at Cana, but there's a sign behind that miracle. There's a sign that's pointing towards the ultimate.
What is the sign that is behind that?
So let's go back to that miracle. It says that Jesus and his disciples were invited to a wedding in Cana of Galilee. And back in those days, those Jewish weddings were like a A whole week affair. Wow. Yeah.
Unlike Roman weddings, which were ostentatious and extravagant, Jewish weddings symbolized the greatest joy. It was a celebration. All week long, people partying. All week long. And so, of course, they would have wine at these weddings.
But again, keep in mind what we've been discussing over the past few days: it was diluted wine, not like hardcore liquor or wine. Just Get you all toasted, I guess. I mean, it's flavored water. Yeah. It's grape flavored water.
That's right. Essentially, you're drinking the straight. It did have an element of intoxication, but not to the level of modern alcoholic beverages. Right. Yeah.
So His mother comes to him, you know, they run out of wine. His mother comes to him and says, Do something and he says, What does your concern have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. I did not leave my heavenly home to come Just to get your party started. Right, like I'm not the bartender.
I'm not here on a mission. Yeah, I am here for a greater purpose. And then, of course, Mary's response is to the servants. Whatever he says to you, do it. And that is almost seems like Hey.
He's my son. Just give him some time. No, she understands because she was assigned. Right. She herself was assigned.
So she knows what that means. That's a great point. Which means now, stay the course. you will see a fulfillment, more is happening here. She picks up on it.
And um So Somehow, Mary knew that Jesus would use this as a sign, and um. Then it says in verse six, There were six water pots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the juice, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. That's a lot of water. That is a lot of water. I was just thinking about that.
But also, these are not amphorae, like big wine containers. These are water pots meant for the purification process. You know, people used to back in those days, I'm talking about Jewish people, ceremonially they would wash their hands and they would cleanse the vessels a certain way. All this was done to purify. This is the old system.
This is the law.
So there is something symbolic that he's using the. Ritualistic water pots for the sound. That's right. That's right. So he tells them, of course, fill the pots with water.
And he could have easily said fill the wine jars, but no, this is the water pots for purification. Right. And it's a sign. And so what happens next? It says, he told them to get some out and take it to the master of the feast.
So it's not just enough to go, okay. You know, Abrakadabra is done. Drink away. Start just dispersing this. No, he said over there.
Take it to the master of the feast. And when he tasted it, he was amazed and said to the bridegroom, Every man. At the beginning sets out the good wine. And when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. That's not mean like they are completely sloshed.
Right. It just means that they are like content. They're happy. They're partying. They're partying.
They're having a good time. Yes, they are under the influence, but not like they're all passed out everywhere. How can you have a wedding celebration if everybody's like, you know, just in the gutter? Right. Yeah.
You're not going to be able to carry that on all week. Yeah, true. No, but you're done. Right. How can that wedding even last six days if you are drinking nonstop?
Yeah, you're going home after night one, man. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. You will have to be like, the bridegroom is over there knocked out, and the bride is over here, gone.
The best man. He's got a lampshade on his head. He's done. Yeah. This is not a party anymore.
The bride's mother is, you know. Sprawled out over there. We cannot have a wedding. It's over. No, that's not true.
They're. the move which again proves the point that this was not As alcoholic as today's wine. That's right. That's right. So um Then they he says that Apparently, they would serve the best quality of wine first, and then, you know, when people drunk, didn't care, then the other was come.
It's a sign. Jesus was saying to them, Didn't John the Baptist tell you that the better wine was coming? That's right. Just in the previous chapter. He does that.
You know, in John 1:15, John bore witness of him and said, cried out, saying, This was he of whom I said, he who comes after me is preferred before me. Preferred before me, just like. The new one is being preferred over the first one. And John 1 26. John answered them, I baptized with water, but there stands one among you whom you do not know.
It is he who coming after me is preferred before me. I mean, same thing. Why do you have the preferred wine later? Whose sandal strap I am not worthy to lose. The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Behold, a Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man who is preferred before me. I mean, if you completely rip it out of context, then of course, please just go drink. Don't even read the Bible. Right. But the passage has nothing at all to do with drinking.
Right. But if you're going to use the passage like John chapter 2, then make sure you really spend some time in John chapter 1. Right. Preferred, preferred, preferred.
So The passage is not about whether to drink or not to drink, which we can make A case for that in other passages. The passage is about Jesus being the good wine. who brings true joy and celebration. Everything prior to him was inferior. When he comes into your life, then the real wedding Can begin.
That's the heart of John chapter 2. That changes the way you see the entire miracle. No longer is it to drink or not to drink. It's not right. It's not a proof text for alcohol.
It's showing that Jesus is who he promised he was going to be. That's right. And people try so desperately. I think I would be, if it weren't for being at this church and being one of those show and being like on this show, constantly talking about this stuff, I would be one of those people who always want to get you on a technicality. You know what I mean?
Like Jesus wouldn't lead people to sin. Jesus would not provide wine if wine was a sin. But it's such a surface level argument that it really is. It really is a, I don't know how I want to say it, it's a consequential detail of the story. That's being used to point to a greater truth, which is what you said.
Jesus is the better wine, he's the preferred. the the preferred result. Yeah, that's what you could say.
Well, John fifteen, verse eleven says it, These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may remain in you. You have wine in you that is bringing you temporary And And just Meaningless joy. I'm not saying weddings are not meaningful. Of course, there are a lot of good things. Oh, look at my son, or look at my daughter, or my grandchild, or man, it's so I'm so happy to see everybody at these families coming together.
We're so excited, great days are ahead.
Okay, there's a level of joy. But what Jesus is saying. Is that my joy may remain in you and that your joy may be full. It's a whole different level of joy. And I know we have tough times in life, and I know we have sufferings and trials in life where our joy doesn't feel, we don't feel joyful, but the joy is not as much as laughter or peace or contentment.
The joy. It looks very different. The joy is like. that that sense of Uh He is in charge. He is in control.
Just like wine controls us. Right? And people begin to do things under the control of wine, having Jesus' joy in us. is a level of joy where He is controlling us. He is using us for a greater purpose.
So we may even suffer. But that suffering Is bringing life to others. That goes along, I think, perfectly with everything we've been walking through in Romans. You know what I mean? Like, there's not joy, it's not just that there's joy in the submission, the submission is joy.
Yeah, it's joyful to do that, you know what I mean? Right. Especially in the midst of suffering. Yeah, we often equate joy with happiness or joy with laughter or joy with hilarity. But this joy is a different kind of joy where we are being used by God.
for a much greater and everlasting purpose. Yeah. What an interesting and helpful way to reframe this story. I mean, I feel like a lot of times people take this out of context and they take this passage and use it as that proof text for drinking, but it shows us that Jesus is the greater joy.
Well, he is the greater, the greater result. And it makes it very fitting that this is his first public miracle, that this is the sign that points to who he is as God's son. It also, I think, is significant that you wrap this up, this discussion up with suffering. And maybe there's another episode to be had, but you know, the whole suffering thing, we talked so much about that in Romans 8, and now it's starting to come back because I think suffering really is at the heart of why people want to drink in the first place. You know, they're suffering.
And so instead of turning to Christ, they turn to the substitute. Yeah, and they expect laughter and all that. And that's just poor, poor, poor substitutes for true joy. That's right. You know, there's a book out there called Pass It On.
It's usually. Used to be published by Alcoholic Anonymous. And in this book, there's a story of Carl Jung. Carl Jung, if you know, he was a major psychologist of the past century, psychoanalysis, all those kinds of things, friends with Sigmund Freud. And a man came to him by the name of Roland H.
came from a wealthy family, but he had Alcohol addiction. And he came to Jung in Switzerland and said, please help me. and Jung worked with him for over a year. And it felt like, man, I am free. And then the man leaves only to go right back into drinking again.
Right back into it.
So he goes back to Jung and says, Please help me again. And Jung's like, I don't think. I can help you.
Now Jung was not a Christian. He was not a Bible-believing evangelical. In remotely speaking, But he told him, listen, what you need, the only thing that would help you would be a spiritual awakening. What you need is God. More specifically, you need a relationship with Christ.
And I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but I'm pretty close. And Roland H said, you know, I believe in God. He said, no, you need more than just a belief. You need a commitment. You know, human beings are spiritual beings.
That's true. That's true. And we have that place in us, that desires, that connection with the divine, that desires to rise above our circumstances. Yeah. And alcohol is a poor substitute.
But the enemy often offers us that. You know, uh Paul says in Ephesians chapter 5 18 Do not be drunk with wine in which is dissipation, esotos, just wastefulness and destruction, and just. throwing away But be filled with the Holy Spirit. That's right. So don't.
Settle for the substitute. That's right. Be filled with the Holy Spirit. That's right. Amen.
So good for us. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes. And you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, how are we closing today? Just want to let you guys know that our live stream is coming up quickly. It's August 15th from 7 to 9 p.m.
We're going to have a phone number for you guys to call. You'll be able to call us live on the air. You'll be able to see it right there on the screen, but we definitely want you to tune in. It'll be on Facebook, YouTube, it'll be on clearviewbc.org. It'll be on Abadanshah.com.
All of our platforms, it'll be there for you guys to join in and call us August 15th, 7 to 9 p.m. We want to pray with you live on the air. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow.
We'll clear you today.
