You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadon Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We've got a great conversation still continuing in the Book of Romans. But man, I'm feeling good today. I'm feeling in a good mood.
I'm ready to talk about that. It's Friday. It's not. It is Friday. I was about to say it's not Friday. It is Friday. Happy Friday to everybody who is listening. Dr. Shah, welcome to the show.
Good to see you guys. I usually do my intro. Let me do my intro.
He's like putting a cough drop in. For those of you who are listening for the first time, Dr. Abbadon Shah is a PhD in New Testament Textual Criticism, a professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Wow. Yeah.
Oh, wow. Good to see you, Dr. Shah. Good to see you as well. Thank you. Thank you for the show today.
Absolutely. Wonderful to be here. So before we do anything else, I've got to get something off my chest and I've been wanting to talk about this since we arrived back from the West Coast. I think Ryan already knows where I'm going with. So this is, did I do that? This is a segment of our show where we talk about some of the embarrassing things or the cringe worthy things that have happened to us.
Dr. Shah, I don't know if you saw this happen, but I know you're privy to it. We're 30,000 feet in the air, right? We're heading to New Mexico. Okay. And my son and my wife, my oldest son and my wife are both prone to motion sick, bad motion sick.
Yeah. Terrible, terrible. It makes, it makes it the traveling part of traveling really unpleasant.
Like the destination they're arriving is all fun, but the flying is not so fun. So Ellie pretty much just checked out and Gavin is like, I don't feel good. My stomach hurts. So I'm like, Oh, okay.
Okay. So what we had done was we had put a little bit of ginger ale in his sippy cup and we usually don't, we don't do that. We usually don't let him have any soda, but Ellie was like, he can have a little bit of ginger ale just to settle his stomach. So before the plane took off, we had put a little bit of ginger ale in the sippy cup.
So the sippy cup is one of those with the straw that's inserted. Can I, can I, can I check there? All I remember from back there was people wiping the, the, the ceiling of the plane. And I'm thinking like, what happened here? Somebody throw something up there or, I mean, what, what in the world is somebody, I hate to, sorry people. If you're listening, there's somebody just vomit up in the ceiling would just go like, what happened? Like really up in the ceiling.
I mean, that would be odd, right? So I'll tell you exactly what happened. I didn't think about the fact that we're 30,000 feet in the air and there's a pressurized straw. So when I opened it up, the ginger ale, I'm talking about like old faith, full style, like geyser up, soaked all of my pants, soaked the people in front of me. So people behind me, it was incredible. I mean, it was insane shot right at the, I mean, like these are strangers to now covered in ginger ale. And I've got a sick kid beside me.
Like you, when you're on playing your own edge, you don't know how these people are going to be out. I was like, guys, y'all, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We're getting wiped up. The flight attendant comes and goes, Oh, what happened? I was like, I put ginger ale in the sippy cup. I wasn't thinking about cause it's soda. That's what I'm thinking because it's soda.
It's carbonated. That was my mistake. So we get it all cleaned up. Everyone's like, I can tell they're mad, but they're like, they're on a plane and we're dealing with a sick kid. Hey man, it's all good. It's all good. So I'm like, all right. All right.
I apologize. Are you okay? Are you okay? I'm like handing people napkins. I'm like, Gavin, are you feeling better?
I give him some crackers. Okay. Let's not make that mistake again. Don't the, I just drank the ginger ale myself. I poured water into it. So I'm like, there's no carbonation in the water. So we're going to be fine. Shut the cup, put it down.
Literally as the plane is like starting to descend, we're still, I'd say we're like 25,000 feet, right? And Gavin's like, I'm thirsty. I'm like, all right, no problem. I've got water.
I opened it up. Dr. Shot. He does the same thing. Same, same thing. Water just rockets to the top of the ship and splashes the exact same people as last time.
Are you serious? I was like, dude, I was like, I don't know what to say. I was like, this is water. And like David is leaning across the aisle. What's going on?
Like Libna, Dr. Shot's sister's like, what is it? What's going, what's going on?
What is this? And then the, the flight attendant comes back and is like, what is happening? I was like, I don't know. I put water.
She was like, oh, you know what it is. We're up in the air. We're up in the air.
The pressure is different up here. You, I, you know, I had a bottle that it turns out it was the bottle. It was the way the bottle, there was the, the straw is like built into it and you're creating like a seal with a bunch of pressure.
And then when you open it up because of the pressure in the cabin, because the elevation is different. And so she was like, it doesn't matter what drink you put in there. It's the bottle. The only reason, the only reason I know that is because the same thing happened to us a couple of years ago.
Really? The kids had those water bottles that have the straw that folds down. So it kind of creates that seal.
And so they opened it. It was one of the, one of our girls, they opened it, it shot up in the air and they looked and they looked at me like, what happened? It's the pressure.
It's the pressure on those water bottles. It's it's in the, the flight attendant was like, you know, it happened to me. I didn't even think about it earlier, but I had a bottle and that happened to me all the time. I don't know. I would have loved a heads up if that had happened.
Well, I didn't, I didn't even think about it. We, cause we've been without those time and kind of water was for so long. And I tell the kids like, Hey, if you have those straw, the flip up straws, cause regular water bottles, fine. It's just those flip up straws that are going to create that seal. So if you open it before the plane takes off and just leave it open while you're going up in the air, it'll equalize the pressure and it won't cause that issue.
I have seen, yes, that's true. I have seen people throw tantrums on a plane and I'm always like, what is wrong with people? But I kind of get it.
A plane is a perfect opportunity for you to really what it is about a plane that just makes people so on edge. But even I was like, all right, now I'm really close to losing it. So can I give you a follow up?
Did I do that? Yeah, sure. Related to this one. One second.
Let me just go ahead and give you the, okay. So this is related to this one, a kind of an adjacent event on yesterday's episode. If you listened to the radio show yesterday, you heard us talking about, you know, when you explore the word of God, it leads you to a deeper understanding of who God is, especially who the Holy Spirit is. And so John does a great job of laying out kind of the run sheets for us and figuring out where the show is going to go.
He kind of is the, is steering the ship. Yesterday we had planned to do this segment, but didn't because of time. We just kind of rolled into the regular segment. So in an effort to set you up to share this story, I said that when you dive into God's word, you know, there's, there's much more depth here.
There's much more pressure in God's word. So when you open it up, it kind of spills everywhere. Oh, I didn't even catch that. We rolled into the regular show and then I sounded like a crazy person. No, not at all. I sounded like a crazy person saying that God's word spills everywhere. What does that even mean?
Not at all. I didn't catch that at all. That is really funny.
That's just a little Easter egg for you. If you listened to yesterday's episode, if you didn't go back and listen to it, I sound like an insane person. I'm going to put a little clip of it right here. So here's Ryan saying it. It reminds you that there's more going on under the surface. And when you start to really explore God's word, what's under the surface or what's welling up inside kind of, you know, spills out and kind of gets everywhere.
Well, that's what this whole, that's what this whole discussion on Romans is supposed to be about. That was crazy. That was absolutely crazy. I was trying, I was trying to lobby the softball and we just, you're a good wingman for that, man. You're a good man.
That's funny. Well, speaking of God's word, the verse of the day today comes from Romans chapter six, verse six, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. I mean, that is pretty much what we've been talking about this entire time throughout the book of Romans. It's crazy because, you know, we don't think that we live as slaves to anything. It's such an un-American way of thinking.
It's so anti-Western. But the Bible is very clear that we are going to be either slaves of sin or slaves to Christ. Right. And that's what Romans chapter eight does for us. It gives us a secret of how to be set free from the bondage of sin.
Right. So we already know that we died with Christ. We were buried with him and we have risen with him to walk in the newness of life. That's Romans chapter six. Romans chapter seven is a saved man, a regenerate Christian going back to the law. Now law is still good. Law is still applicable, but we don't keep the law the same way we were before we got saved. In fact, we couldn't keep the law ever, but some people try to do that and it makes for a very miserable life. It's called legalism and legalism is not just keeping the 10 commandments. Legalism can be your own set of rules that you have created for your life. Legalism doesn't have to look like what we think it looks like. The old dusty white guys in a country church. Yeah.
Just sitting there. Yeah. You can make your own rules or thinking that just the Pharisees were legalists. No, we all have our own legalism. So being in bondage to the law can be applicable to every generation because we make our own legalistic rules.
So what will set us free? Paul explains to us how there are four laws that are operating against a Christian. There's a law of God, which is good. There's a law of our mind, which is also good because it has been transformed into the mind of Christ work in progress, but it's the work has begun. Then there's a law in your members, which is our old ways of doing things which are prone to sin, which is also known as the law of our flesh. And then there's a law of sin, which is indwelling sin, the sin principle.
So now you have four laws, but they kind of pair off with the law of mind going with the law of God, the law of flesh or members going with the law of sin. And it is a tug of war, but nobody wins. It's a constant struggle. I want to do this, but I don't. And my members, which is my body, does not cooperate. And my mind tells me to do this, but then I find myself eating this or saying that or hearing this or seeing that or going there or doing this and it's defeat.
And I think a lot of people, I like the way you frame that too, is that it's a tug of war that doesn't end. Cause I think what people expect is the Holy Spirit comes in, right? Like now I'm saved. Now the Holy Spirit comes in and he's going to kill that law of sin and death. He's going to completely destroy it forever. And I won't, and I might, yeah, I might struggle here and there, but that's me doing it. The Holy Spirit has killed those.
Those laws are no longer active. We use language in those terms that kind of lends to that, uh, that thinking, you know, we, we died to ourselves and arisen to walk in the newness of life. We're made new. We're a new creation. Uh, so we in our, in our minds think, oh, that's an instantaneous process.
Like I'm going to wake up and I'm not going to struggle with this anymore. When that tug of war is really more characteristic of the Christian life, the experience. And so all that to say, uh, it does not work. We, what we need is another law, but this is not the law in the sense of legalism. This is a law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Right. And that's what Romans chapter eight is all about. And Romans chapter eight verse two says for the law of the spirit of life, the Holy Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, that this Holy Spirit does not work apart from Christ. He works in Christ with Christ. He is the third person, the Godhead who takes the life of the second person that is already inside of me and makes it real. It kind of, I don't know why this thought came to me, but I think people think like with like God is God. And then Jesus is the one who does everything. He did all the creating. He was the one who interacts with humans and said, the Holy Spirit is like, all right guys, now it's my time to shine. This is where I come in.
My turn. Yeah. And that's a, that's a huge misunderstanding because the Holy Spirit is not a neglected person. Now he may be neglected in certain churches, but he is not neglected in the Godhead. That's right. He is not over there pouting and saying, I wish these two would allow some spotlight for me. He's not doing that. In fact, if you ever read Genesis chapter one and verse one, if I can go there right quick.
Yes, please. Genesis chapter one, first book of the Bible, first chapter and second verse. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. I mean right there in the second verse of the entire Bible, the Holy Spirit is mentioned.
That's right. Now don't misunderstand. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth right there. The Holy Spirit is also mentioned because we believe the Trinity was not created 2000 years ago when Jesus came, the Trinity was always there.
Right. And people knew that. And so right here in the first verse itself, the Trinity is mentioned, but of course somebody may say, well, that's just God as in the oneness, one God. Well, second verse, the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Right there, the second person is mentioned.
The third person is mentioned. Right there, Trinity at the beginning of scripture, literally in the first two verses of the Bible, you have this triune nature of God being introduced. And you know, you said it on yesterday's episode, but we talk a lot about the old Jewish believers who had a problem reconciling the fact that there was three in one. They had an issue with, you know, cause they have so emphasized God as one, uh, the, the monotheistic culture. And they had a hard time reconciling that there was father, son, and Holy Spirit, but really that's our misunderstanding. Right. A hundred percent.
It's not that they were struggling. It's not like Paul had to go away and say, I got to figure out this Trinity stuff. Yeah.
No, Paul had to figure out the, the, the depth of the Christian life. Right. That's what he went away into Arabia for.
Not to go, I got to get this God thing. Right. Because I thought that God was just one and now I have to deal with these three. No, he says it right there when he is knocked to the ground. Who are you Lord?
Okay. He's talking about God. Who are you God? And what he wants to know is, are you the one, are you the one that I'm trying to, uh, kill? Because if that's the case that I am a hundred percent wrong, are you the Messiah?
Are you really the one? That's what his question, his question is not like, who are you God? Right. He knows who God is.
Right. I mean, he is, he is on authority from the chief priests to go and destroy people who were claiming that this man from Galilee was claiming to be the son of God. His problem is not that they were claiming that he was son of God. The problem is that this man from Galilee is the one that is, that was a big problem. I mean, if you go back and study, um, some of the statements they made about Jesus is their problem was he didn't come through the authorities, right? He didn't come through their line, their line. He didn't come through those, uh, religious leaders who had been given the position to declare who is going to be the Messiah.
And so his question is like, how could all of our religious leaders be wrong about him? Yeah. That's a different issue. Right. And rather than confront that issue, it's much easier to say, no, no, no, we're still waiting. We're still waiting.
They could not, they could not all be wrong. Right. Yeah. He did some good stuff.
I've heard of it. I'm sure Paul heard of that. He fed the poor, he healed the sick, but to go back and look at all the prophecies and go, so he, he's the one I didn't be this guy. I know we probably don't have time to look at it right this moment because we're, we're, the show's about halfway over, but I would love to do an episode one day where we look at why did they think that in the first place?
Like, like how could, where did they go wrong? Cause we know that they understood the Messiah. We knew that they were, they understood those prophecies. So where did the, did they invent that where they're like, he's going to come through us.
He's going to come through the religious elite. Um, they, it's not necessarily that they thought he was going to come through them, but when he came, he did things that were very much in line with messianic prophecies. So that really drew a lot of the Pharisees to him.
I mean, Nicodemus, part of the Sanhedrin shows up to talk to Jesus. That's very significant. We don't pay much attention to that. We immediately go to the born again side of the discussion, which is true.
We should. But the fact that a Sanhedrin, which is the top judicial body of the Jewish people and of this, there is a member who is a very wealthy man, not just somebody who went to, you know, the seminary and got into the, into the guild. No, this is a very wealthy man.
Means he is not only educated, but he's also successful. This is like a Supreme Court member coming. Yes. Yes. He is top guy in a top, um, um, you know, society and he's taking enough notice of Jesus to go and actually pursue this truth. Absolutely. So they all knew that some, there are some prophecies this person has to fulfill and he's fulfilling them.
What they couldn't understand is he's the son of a carpenter. He is coming from Nazareth. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Yeah. That was their problem. It's like, why is he coming from there?
Yeah. But they didn't take the time to follow the lineage and said, okay, yes, he's coming from Nazareth and Nazareth is important because, because this is Netzer, the root and oh wait, but he was born in Bethlehem because that's where Micah said and yes, he went there. So they're not connecting the dots enough to go, oh no, he is the one. Do you think if they had connected the dots that they, their perception of him would have been different? No, I believe many of them were hard-hearted. They want, they wanted it to not be him. Yeah.
There's so one. And Jesus gave that parable. Remember the, I know we kind of left the subject, but no, no, you're going to give the parable of the vineyard workers where the, the, the farmer goes away and then he sends servant after servant and they beat up the servant and kill the servant. And then he finally says, I'm going to send my son. They're going to listen to him. They said, oh look, here's the son.
What does that mean? They knew he was the son of God. Right. And they said, let's kill him.
So this will be all ours. That makes it so much worse. That makes it so much worse. Yeah.
So much worse than a misunderstanding. Could they think that they could kill the son of God? Yeah.
Like what did I wonder, like, what was the end goal here? But you know, all of this kind of lends to this, this, this greater story where Jesus even says, you know, if I don't go away, then the Holy Spirit is not going to come to you. And I think through like how the Holy Spirit convicts us now.
Right. Like in light of all this, and it's really good that we're able to have that conviction, like, man, how could they do that? I feel like only the Holy Spirit can really put that in the heart of a believer.
And then when he does, he starts to transform our lives. And I wanted to kind of talk about that because you gave an illustration and I really liked what you said that it's the law of the spirit and it's not the law. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's not the laws and you have to do what the spirit says.
Cause that's the law, but it's the law. Like gravity is a law. It's it's, it's, it's a, not a force, but it's an accepted principle. Yes. Yeah.
It's that's, that's exactly right. It's an accepted principle of being a fundamental truth. I mean, like gravity, a good way to say that you don't have to prove it. It exists whether you believe in it or not, it is, it is existing and it is working on you right now as we speak.
Otherwise we'd be floating around the room. The law of sin and death is existing. So also the law of spirit of life is already operating if you have the Holy Spirit and you have the Holy Spirit only if you have Jesus Christ and you have Jesus Christ only if you are saved, you have received him as your savior, as your King. But the thing I think about the spirit is that, you know, and I think you said this too, it's not a state of being. It's not like, okay, I'm saved. Now I've got the spirit. I'm good. I'm, I'm locked in for salvation.
Yes. But like for the Christian life, it's like the longer I live, the more the spirit is just going to do his thing in me. So that by the time I'm old, I'll be completely spiritually mature. Well, have, have you met a lot of, I'm sure people listening right now are probably like, what are you talking?
Are you talking about me? I've been a Christian for 50 years, 60 years. Well, again, the question comes back to, okay, you've been a Christian for all those years.
How is your spiritual life? Right? Yeah. And I hope you are sinless.
And what I mean by sinless is not like not sinning, but you sin less. That's right. That's right.
I hope so. Yeah. Well, it's, it just goes to show, I think the, like what you said is true.
Living in the Holy Spirit is a condition you have to maintain, right? Just like a car. You know what I mean? I can't just drive the car and the more I drive it, the better it's going to get.
It's like the exact opposite led to their own devices. Things break down, but I can drive that car indefinitely if I keep maintaining it. I guess the difference with the Holy Spirit is eventually the car will break to the point of where I can't maintain it anymore. That's where the analogy sort of breaks down.
Yeah. I would say, think about it like, I mentioned in a sermon recently that it's like our stage or our pulpit. It is about, I would say maybe three feet up the ground and a half feet off the ground. If I were to step off that stage, not going down the steps, but step off the stage, right? I will fall. I will come down because the law of gravity is operating on me, right? That's the law of sin and death. It's always pulling us down and it will always do that until the day we leave this world. When I die, my body goes in the ground and my spirit goes before God. Until that day, the law of sin and death will constantly pull me down just the way the law of gravity is constantly pulling me down. But if I were to put on a harness and that harness was tied to a beam, which we do by the way, we do that for our church. We have a pretty strong, vibrant theater ministry.
Ryan leads it. But if I were tied to that harness, I can step off, but I'm just going to sort of, you know, bob up and down. I'm not coming down because that beam is holding me up.
That harness is holding me up. Which doesn't mean that gravity has stopped working. You just killed the law of gravity.
It doesn't exist anymore. Everyone just floats up in the air. That's not what we're saying.
At that moment, if I were to take a pair of scissors and cut the harness, I'm going to fall. It's not going to change the law of gravity. So also the law of sin and death are constantly operating, but the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus holds me up. It counteracts the law of sin and death. So what you said, Jon, is true.
It is not a state. It's a maintained condition where the Holy Spirit's spirit counteracts the law of sin and death. And as long as I'm submitting to the Holy Spirit, listening to the Holy Spirit, rather than listen to my own flesh or turn to the law, I am going to be okay. That's right.
That's right. And the moments that I don't, whether it's because I'm stressed out or I am distracted or I listen to the members in my body, allow my flesh to take charge, the old nature, that's the moment where I begin to sink. That's such a good picture too, because that analogy continues. You got to make that decision to put the harness on. You don't just wake up one day and the harness is just on you. You have to decide, I'm going to put this harness on and I'm going to buckle it securely.
I'm going to make sure it's intact. So, I mean, the same is true with our walk with God. If we ever stopped maintaining that, if we ever stopped submitting to the Holy Spirit, if we ever decided to strike out on our own and do what we want to do, that's the same thing as stepping off the stage. Even though that harness exists, we didn't put it on. And if you've ever worked in that, like if you've ever worked in theater or if you like climb towers or rock climbed or you have to, like, you know, like the first time you put a harness on, like when we did it here at the church, I mean, it was like a day.
It was like a day of figuring this out because it's like, this has consequences. If we, that's a great point. If we like don't do this right, someone's going to fall. Someone's going to get hurt and they're not falling just like four feet. They're going to fall from like 20 feet. That's a great point because that's exactly what happens in, in countless Christian lives because they don't know how to put on the harness.
They fall. Now, let me also clarify. It does not mean that they stop being saved.
Right, right. That's where a lot of Christians make the second, I believe, fatal mistake is thinking that because the law of sin and death has temporarily pulled us down, that we have stopped being saved. Like we have now rolled back to the pre-cross life and that's not true. Sanctification is a gift. Sanctification is a gift. Unlike other religions and movements that tell us, here's the ideal, now work towards it. If you are initiated and you have been taken into the fold or the religion or this movement, now you have to daily work to get to this ideal. You may not reach the ideal or you may reach the ideal or these are the steps you get, you do to get to the, whatever they say. You do not have the ideal. Now compare that to biblical Christianity. Sanctification is a gift.
You already have the ideal. It has been given to you. He's given you the finish line. Right. The finish line is with you. It's not dependent on you.
It's not dependent on your circumstances. It's already been given. Sanctification is a gift. You have to receive it by faith and that's where if you don't do that, then you go back to the, I'm saved, but I'm not saved anymore. I need to get saved again because I sinned and I really, you know, I kind of wandered off.
I really need to get saved. It's like, I think that means a lot. That means a lot coming from someone like you who grew up in the east. And so I know you grew up in a Christian home, but you saw people constantly who were Muslim or who were Hindus and they were like, my life is devoted to achieving this end goal that I know kind of deep down I'll never achieve like on my own or maybe not at all. And even the goal is not necessarily a good goal. It's just, it's a vague philosophical, just jumble of whatever. You know, you cannot even say that there is a definite goal. Like what is our goal to be like Christ? What is our goal to be holy unto God? What is the goal in Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or Sikhism?
I really don't know. They don't know. What is the goal?
What are you trying to get to? Now they may come up with something, but if you take their religious texts, which again is a big difference between their religious texts and the Bible. But either way, they, they cannot really even verbalize that.
You know, one, another thing to keep in mind is that somebody is, you know, well, that may I say like what attracts them to these goals then if these goals are so vague and unreachable and, and just, you know, don't have any substance. Well, it's not necessarily that they are choosing that path. That's the religion they're born into.
Yeah. That's their that's culture. Now in America or in the West, people convert. Some people convert to Islam or they convert to Hinduism or they convert to Buddhism. That's a Western thing. I was just about to ask you if conversion, that's a Christian thing, Western concept. I would say not, let me, I misspoke. It's more of a Christian concept.
You don't convert like you do in Christianity. Yeah. Yeah. That's just something that you're born into.
Right. So helpful as we, as we unpack, you know, what the Holy Spirit does for us and the differences between other religions, how we view this, this goal and the beautiful thing about Christianity is that the finish line is with us. That's such a reassuring statement. You guys enjoyed today's episode.
Write in and let us know two five two five eight two five zero two eight. We'd love to hear from you guys. A big thank you to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us on iTunes by subscribing to the show and you can always support us financially at cleary today show.com.
John, as we go into the weekend, what do you want to listen to? Well, definitely want to encourage you to be in worship, find a church family that's near you and join them in worshiping our God together. If you don't have a church family, you can always join us online.
Clear view ubc.org. We live stream there every single weekend, eight 30 and 11 o'clock. Also, you can watch all of Dr. Shah's sermons and his exclusive content on pray.com. We are celebrating today 9000 followers, Dragon Ball Z style. We're actually at 9.2, which means since this morning when I was getting ready, we gained 200 followers on Dr. Shah's page. That means you know what that means that we're closing in on 10,000. 10,000 people have chosen to follow Dr. Abadan Shah on pray.com. It's 100% free. I don't know why you wouldn't do it. Of course, you can always give and support the ministry if you choose to and thank you to all of you who have done that.
That's right. We love you guys. Have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you Monday on Clear View Today.
