You're listening to Clearview today with Dr. Abbadon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
That's right. And he lives in a pineapple under the sea, but I am rocking it up here on dry land. My name is John Galantis. It is so good to see you guys.
Well, I noticed the shirt and I'm like... I would love to live in a pineapple under the sea. Yeah, here you go.
Here you go. My leg! My leg! That's right.
And he finds out that he's still wearing the Hawaiian shirt. I'm John Galantis. It is so good to see all of you guys here at the Clearview Today studio with our host, Dr. Abbadon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor and the host of today's show.
Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Abbadon Shah. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And you look very fresh. Thank you very much. I'm leaning into the summer vibe.
We got a Chum Bucket special for you right around the corner. So Dr. Shah, it's been said that in every friend duo, there's usually one who dresses in more muted drab colors and one who dresses a little more flashy. See if you can guess which one the two of us are.
I'll give you a second. He's the, he's the starfire to my raven. Well, that's a good one. I mean, for those of you who don't are, are just listening.
Ryan is over here in a Hawaiian shirt and John's over there in the drab gray shirt. I've always, I've always been like that. I feel like if I wear color, someone will notice whether for the good or bad, someone will see me. And I don't have that. Yeah.
I can't have that. Always drab grays, always blacks, always dark. I do love going to comment on them. I like them a lot. Are those new? Yeah, they're new. Nice. Well, we got them or I got them in New Mexico and Ron was the one who recommended them. Really?
I was looking at another one and Ryan said, Oh, I really like those. So you're going to get them. It's like, nah, not right now.
It's like, I'm going to get him. Is that okay? Yeah.
I missed entirely. Yeah. I love him.
I love that. How the heel leans into that New Mexico vibe. Yeah. But it's, it's a real light color.
We'll kind of like sandstone color. It goes with red river. Yes, I did. Okay.
Yes. Last day or the first day? First day. First day.
I didn't know that. Did you wear them around New Mexico? I did not wear them around New Mexico.
I don't want to mess them up because we were going to a lot of hiking spots. So I was not able to got you. I got you. Well, that was when you were in the middle of a class. Might've been. Yeah. I had to take a zoom.
I had to take a zoom call like right as we were. So like I had a vacation bummer. Well, I mean, it was all good. I mean, nobody was really listening anyway, but now you were, you were in your Greek class.
That's right. Studying Greek while you were walking around with us. So there was, there was times where I had my AirPods in and then doctor, I was like, all right, Hey guys, let's get a picture by the sign.
So I just turned my camera off and I was like cheese, but I was listening to this guy in my ear, talk about Greek. And then I was like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Sounds good. This is one of those ones where you just like discuss the syllabus. So it was at the very beginning of the same, like advanced Greek syntax and, and is this a objective genitive or subjective genitive?
None of that. This is here to submit your, here's how to submit your assignments. This is, this is more like, Hey guys, when you have, when you respond to someone on the discussion thread, make sure you actually just like discuss and give two or three sentences. Same thing they do in every single class. And I was like, it was kind of funny because most of the people in that class are like master's level, like students.
I think I'm the only undergrad in Greek three. I think so. And everybody else's master's level. He was like, so we're not going to tell people that their opinions stink.
We're just not going to do that. And I was like, I was going to say, is that still a problem you haven't in the master's level? I guess so.
I guess so. Well, Dr. Shah, today's verse of the day is coming to us from Deuteronomy chapter six and verse five. It says you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength. So this verse you know, very similar to in the new Testament where we're told to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind.
Where, how does the mind get added in there? I think it may just be a little bit of a paraphrase there and that's okay to do that. And I haven't really spent time looking at the Septuagint to see if there you have the mind. Maybe that's the project I can take on for next time. I can see if I can have a report on it.
Hashtag second PhD. No, no, no, no, no. Just to, just to answer the question. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Not like I'm going to do a dissertation on it. Yeah.
That would be, yeah. I'm sure lots of commentaries have covered that. It's like, it's like the mind come from, well, it's kind of funny. Cause it's like, Dr. Shah, where did the mind come from?
It's like, I tell you what, I don't know, but let me go get a PhD on that and I'll be right back. Six years later. Yeah.
There you go. But this passage, you know, Deuteronomy six is very important, especially in Israel's history. And this is really like everything that you have, everything that you are, that's focused on God that needs to be directed toward your relationship with him. Well, one thing we need to really remember is, which, which is not the reason why you brought up this as the passage, but I think it's worth discussing when it says, remember the Lord, your God, the Lord is one.
The Hebrew word there is a cod. That word does not mean that one as it is, as in a solitary one. It's, it's almost like it allows for diversity in unity. Wow.
Okay. As in, as in we are one, like we're of the same mind, we're one. Sort of like that. It's like if I were picking up a bundle of sticks and I said, that's one stick or something like that. There are many parts to it, but it is, it has many parts to it. So that really calls into question the often stated, you know, idea that Jewish people had a tough time believing in the Trinity because they were so focused on this oneness of God.
And I disagree. I believe they knew that there was more happening inside that oneness. I mean, for goodness sakes, Genesis one, one in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. There you have God, there you have the spirit.
Why not just say God was hovering over the water? Right. There is a distinction already there. Something is happening where something other than God is there. But then again, that's something is not just a whole different created being, that something is a spirit of God. Right. And then of course when you come down and you see God made man in his image, well, if God is spirit, where was he getting the original from to be able to create the image that is us? Right. So all that to say the Jewish people or the Israelites or the Hebrews knew that God was not just one as in this, this oneness without any, any persons inside the Godhead. No, they knew that there was more than that. Well, I know that I know that I know you probably don't have this reference right on hand, but like doesn't it say when he creates, let us make man in our image.
Let us. Yes. So it's so it's, that's not an English translation. That's in the Hebrew.
It's plural. Of course people have come and said, oh, that's really a royal we. Let us make like a king saying, let us decide what are we going to do with you? Ancient Hebrews used a royal we? That's what they would say? It's not, it's not.
I can see like a British, like King James or someone using that. Yeah. But it's not true that this was really, let us right from the get go, you can tell there's plurality in the Godhead. So what am I getting at? I'm getting at a point that you did not intend for this to be discussed, which is the Trinity is not something that was created in 2000 years ago.
Definitely was not decided upon by Nicaea or Constantinople as often well known scholars have claimed. Not true. Yeah. This was always there. Right. The council simply recognized and codified, which was already believed. Right. So it wasn't like, it wasn't like it was decided upon in those councils. Okay guys, this is what God is.
This is how he is. It was already believed, but they were like, they were like saying, let's just put it on paper so that we've got it. Absolutely.
A hundred percent. And I think that's, that's something we, maybe it's a side issue when you bring up Deuteronomy chapter six. And I know the reason you brought it up is because of that statement, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. And I'm discussing more of the other parts of Deuteronomy six, the Shema, which is the Lord your God is one.
It reminds you that there's more going on under the surface. And when you start to really explore God's word, what's under the surface or what's welling up inside kind of spills out and kind of gets everywhere. Well, that's what this whole, that's what this whole discussion on Romans is supposed to be about. Like we read the book of Romans and we've been talking about Romans for a couple, about a month and a half, maybe two months now on the show. But you read Romans and you're like, okay, Paul is teaching people the basics of salvation.
I got it. Time to move on to some of the more interesting books. But Romans has some of those deep discussions that people don't even know to be talking about. Like we've been talking about the sin, we've been talking about death, the flesh, all of these things that we've been diving into. And even yesterday we started talking about the Holy Spirit. And I feel like the Holy Spirit is, it's sort of in two categories.
People are like, oh man, I don't even want to touch that. Or they're like, oh, I got it. I know what the Holy Spirit is all about. You know, we forget that he's a person.
He's, he's a member of the Godhead. And so for us to be like, I think I get it. I think I understand the spirit of God. It's one of the most, I think underrated things that you could possibly say.
Yeah. So many people are just kind of ignorant of what or who the Holy Spirit is. I mean, people think that it's just this disembodied force. It's this, it's God's power extended. It's like Star Wars. It's like the force. It illuminates us, binds us. That's not what the Holy Spirit is.
And so we're going to continue that discussion today on, you know, exactly who the Holy Spirit is and what that means for our walk with God or Dr. Shaw. Do you think that people are like, okay, Jesus, I get God, I get Holy Spirit. I don't really, I don't really know what that's about, but I know he's just there.
And that's, that's sort of enough. You know, do you feel like Pete Christians take one of the other people kind of treat the Holy Spirit like the water boy? Yeah. Water boy. The team, like the water boy is not really on the team. He's important. Oh yeah.
I thought you meant like Adam Sandler specifically. The real players. Yeah. And that's just not the case. He is co-equal with the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, but there is a distinction in role. So the distinction is that he proceeds from the father and the son.
And there was a big controversy that's known as the Philly oak controversy between the Western and the Eastern churches. And it was over this whole issue of did the Holy Spirit only proceed from the father or did he also proceed from the son? And the Eastern churches insisted that it was only from the father. The Western on the other side insisted there was father and the son. When you say proceeded, you don't mean he was created by? Not created, but he is in a sense, he is submitted to the father and he submitted to the son.
The son is not submitted to the spirit and the father is not submitted to the son and the spirit, but the son is submitted to the father and the Holy Spirit is submitted to both of them. In subscribing to that, do you introduce hierarchy within the Godhead? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's not a bad thing.
That's not a bad thing. It's a hierarchy of roles rather than of essence. In essence, they're all the same.
No one is greater, no one's lesser. And that's important for us to understand because how you understand the Trinity impacts how you understand male female relationships, especially in the context of marriage is what I'm referring to. I was just thinking about like, you know, if we get this wrong, it's going to create misunderstandings in how we think about husband and wife roles. How we think about, you know, what a submission truly look like. Is there an inequality that's happening or are we equal and yet there's some subordination happening? You know, it maps onto that discussion for sure. So hierarchy of roles, father at the top, son who is subordinate to the father and spirit who is subordinate to the father and the son. Right.
Okay. That's, that's part of the filial controversy. And I don't believe that the church split because of that controversy. Although some scholars and you know, people who talk on theology, I believe they erroneously say that it was because of that, that Christianity split between Western church and Eastern church. I don't think that was the real reason behind it.
Just whether it's off the father or off the father and off the son. Right. I think it was other things were happening.
It was much I think had to do with power control. Who's going to be in charge of who? And that sort of, do you think this, do you think this controversy sort of played into that though?
Like, like who's in charge of who even as far as mapping that onto this Godhead argument, like as the father in charge of Jesus is the, is the father in charge of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that definitely did play a role. And and I don't think they should have made it such a big deal, even though I don't think that's the reason why the Christendom split, but I don't think they should have made it such a big deal. Gotcha. Because at the end of the day, if you say only father and not the son, it's not going to break my Christian life.
It is important. I believe it's father and the son in my opinion, because it does say, Jesus does say that, um, that, you know, he will sin. And, and then another place, I can't remember the verse right now. He does talk about himself, uh, sending the son or the spirit.
Right. And so if you put those two together, then of course his father and the son sending the spirit. That in and of itself is setting up a great implication of chasing down the, chasing down the implications of what you believe. I mean, if you, if you hold this and you chase it down, does this deviate me from Christianity? Does this take me into a different religion entirely? And while we might disagree on this, ultimately, like you said, Dr. Shah, it doesn't, it doesn't change the core tenants of Christianity, but believing something like Jesus was created by God.
I mean, that has more heavy implications if we chase that down. So be aware of what you believe and chase down that belief to its logical conclusion. I believe the, I believe the verse you were looking for, Dr. Shah, was in the gospel of John. I think it's John 16. Cause he says, he says, uh, nevertheless, I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away for, if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you, but if I depart, I will send him to you. So he's sending the Holy Spirit, right? I guess, I guess commanding him.
He's, he's, he's sending him. Is that what you mean when you say he proceeds from the son? And then there's, then Jesus himself said, um, the father will send the spirit.
He also says that too. Okay. So, uh, the Western church in a sense, put those two together and say the father and the son.
Yeah. So anyways, the, the point, I guess it comes down to now is, um, what is the role of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life? Because that's, that's really what we're talking about here today. And in Romans chapter eight, which is sort of, uh, the chapter that really emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit, 19 times he's mentioned. Well, in this chapter, uh, Romans chapter eight and verse one, it says, if I can find that passage, there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.
So no condemnation. And then it says in verse two for the law of the spirit of life in Christ, Jesus, the law of the spirit of life in Christ, Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. We focus on those four laws that are operating on a believer. There's a law of God, the good, good law. Then there's a law of our mind, the mind that has been transformed by Christ, the Christ mind. Then there on the other side is a law of my members, which is my habits, the way my eyes are trained to sin, my mouth, my ears, my hands, my feet, everything is trained to sin from all those years or just because I'm born in sin.
I don't need a lot of years to learn to look at pornography or learn to talk junk or learn to hear gossip. So there's a law of members. And the fourth one is a law of sin, which is the indwelling sin, the sin principle that is in me. But what happens is, as Paul mentions here, those two laws, the law of God and the law of our mind sort of team up because that's what he says here in Romans chapter seven, verse 25. Paul says, so then with the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. So you have these four laws and they pair off in twos. There's a law of God with the law of mind because my mind says God's law is good. We need to obey God. The law of my members pairs up with the law of sin, means my old flesh, my hands, feet, eyes, mouth, everything about me, my instruments of righteousness, which are now still in this world of unrighteousness.
They pair up with the law of sin. Hey, let's do this because this is fun. This is good. This works. This has worked for all those years. Let's use them.
So now you have two verses to law of God, law of mind, law of members, law of flesh and law of sin. This is the setup for the tug of war. That's exactly what I was going to say.
Hence Paul getting so crazy and crashing out over, Hey, this is what am I supposed to do? I'm a wretched man. Like I can imagine if I had four powers, uh, constantly tugging at each other.
Two are good, of course. Yeah. But they're not going to win because yes, the law of mind is powerful, but the law of God offers zero help because all the law of God is going to do is say, this is right. This is wrong. Yeah.
He's not going to pull that rope even one millimeter. Yeah. Yes. The law of mind is what's what's pulling on you.
Really? The law of God just kind of is is there. And so you're, you're, that's why it feels like a lot of times we're fighting that losing battle. We're, we're pulling against sin and death and our members.
Yeah. So what is needed as it says right here in Romans chapter eight, verse two for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, this is the fifth law. And that is the law of the spirit, the Holy spirit who is a spirit of life, but it's not just any Holy spirit or even the third person. This is the law of the spirit of life in Christ. Jesus means this whole Christian life business works only if it is in Christ Jesus. So it isn't the power of the Holy spirit of himself. It's the spirit of the life that you have in Christ.
In Christ Jesus means the life that burst forth through the cross is the life. And you have to by faith receive that. See, a lot of people would take that and say, okay, this is the law of the spirit.
The Holy spirit is living in me. And they do that. Yeah.
A lot of people do that. That's why they focus on the Holy spirit. Like, man, he's got so much power if you only turn to him.
And yes, he does. Of course, the Holy spirit has power, but that power is a power that has emanated from the father and the son here. The focus is more on the son is emanating from the son.
Now, why is that even important? Why can't we just say the Holy spirit helps and leave it alone because Christian life cannot be lived without Christ. It has to be lived in union with Christ. Yeah. That's how we were created. We were created to have a relationship with God and more specifically with the second person of the Godhead.
I mean, who walked in the garden with Adam and Eve was the son, the son. Yeah. Right. So to bring us back to that relationship is very important when we try to understand what salvation is all about.
Yeah. We're coming back into union. So if you have a salvation that is devoid of that union with Christ, then I'm not saying you're not saved, but you're not understanding the real benefit of salvation. Salvation unites us with Christ. That's a beautiful way to put salvation.
I don't know that I've ever thought about it in terms of coming back. Right. That's the relationship. That's the unity that we were made for. And you know, the story, it makes me think of the story of the prodigal son in scripture, the father of when we get the father picture of God, the father, but really this coming home to this relationship, this physical relationship that you had, I mean, you spent time in their presence that's really more akin to us going back to the presence of Christ. Absolutely.
Yeah. And I think like, I think a lot of people, they do bring in this relationship, like we're getting saved and yes, we're getting saved from hell. We're getting saved from God's wrath, but we're also getting saved so that we can be back in relationship with Christ. But I think we're a lot of people, myself included, get this wrong. Is there like, okay, I came to the end of myself, I'm turning around, I'm going back to Christ, but really it's the heating of the Holy spirit. The Holy, I can't find my way back to Christ. You know what I mean? Like I can't just say, okay, I'm going to, cause that'll be like, all right, I'm going to read this Bible and then I'm going to pray and then I'm going to do all the things that the Bible says to do.
But we've, we've talked about it on the show that that can never work. Right. It's, it's really turning around and saying, Holy spirit, you have to, you have to take me back.
I need a guide. Right. Right. And so that's, that's exactly what he does. He, he, he solidifies and he allows the flowing and the outworking of the life of Jesus that came to us through the cross to flow in us. He's the one who unites us to Christ. I mean, this whole in Christ Jesus business is really that we are one with Christ in his death. We are one with Christ and his resurrection. And we are one with Christ with his burial.
And we are one with Christ and his resurrection. The Holy spirit is the one who not only activates, but makes it effective, makes it effective. Makes sense.
Makes sense. I think it's a cool thing to think about because we think about the Holy spirit being a helper as in he's, he's like the teacher's helper. You don't say like, he's like the, the, the kindergarten assistant, like the pat on the back, like the, they're there.
They encourage you're doing okay. But he is truly there to guide us back to Christ. And, and, and he wants that relationship. Right. He wants that role.
It isn't a glossed over looked over role. It's what he desires is to point Christians back to the son of God. If people are listening to this and they're having a hard time wrapping their minds around, like I recognize that I need to come back to God. Maybe they're maybe for the first time they need to have that moment of salvation, or maybe they just kind of wandered through life. Maybe they've fallen away from God and they need the Holy spirit to help them get back.
What is, what is something practical that they can do? How do, how do, how can they think rightly about the Holy spirit in this process? Well, the two things that will keep you from truly enjoying this benefit of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is ignorance. You don't know, you don't know. Now you can be lost.
Maybe we can add that to the list, right? If you're lost, you don't have the Holy spirit because Paul says that right here, if I can read this, he says in Romans chapter eight and verse three, for what the law could not do that, and that it was weak to the flesh. God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the spirit, according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. And then it says here in verse five, but those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, the things of the spirit for to be carnally minded as death, but to be spiritually minded as life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be. So then those who are in the flesh cannot please God, but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you. So that right there is the first thing.
How can you get back? For one, are you truly in, right? Does the spirit of God indeed dwell in you? And it says right here in the next line. Now, if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he is not his. So are you?
He's pretty black and white. Yeah. It's pretty clear. And if it's not, then you make it right now.
Yeah. Ask Jesus to come into your life. Admit to him that you are a sinner. You need his forgiveness. He is your savior. He died on the cross for your sins. God's son who paid the penalty for your sins, invite him in your life. And now you have the Holy spirit. That's right.
And then the other, what was the other? Cause you were saying the first step is get saved, but then the other step is ignorance. Yes, that's right. Learning Romans chapter six, seven, and eight is critical.
I would say critical in the Christian life. Yeah. You got to learn these principles. That's true. We often think that doctrine is optional.
Doctrine is just, if you're interested in further doctrine, Christian doctrine is the, is the further reading footnotes at the end of the gospel. That's what I learn more about this. Yeah. Yeah, seriously.
I think that's enough for a long time. I think I've treated doctrine that way too. Like you, you get the gospel, you understand, all right, this is my relationship with Jesus Christ. And then the further reading footnotes at the end are Christian doctrine.
But I think you were saying it Dr. Shelf from the pulpit, like the Romans eight is that's required reading, right? Like the whole thing, all of doctrine is really required reading. Well, people do reuse Romans chapter eight, but they focus on the fun part like Romans eight, 28 where we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. Or they'll read the, the latter part of Romans eight where it talks about nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. The encouraging stuff to pick me up. I'm holding that as a mantra.
And that's great. And I hope you do, but don't forget that you don't immediately jump to Romans chapter eight, 28 or 31, 32. You need to sorta understand why you need the Holy Spirit and understand what it means to have victory over sin and what it means that the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. So how does God work in our lives? It's not by eradicating the old nature. It's not by suppressing the old nature. It's by counteracting the old nature in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Amen. So the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. That's right. The Holy Spirit counteracts the law of sin and death. But I thought it was the law of my members and the law of sin. Yes. But keep in mind, ultimately the law of your members is leading to sin and sin leads to death. So the spirit of life is not counteracting your members is he's counteracting sin and death. Wow.
Not dealing with the middle management going straight to the main problem, which is sin, which leads to death. Amen. Wow. So good. Guys, if you enjoyed today's episode, write in and let us know two five two five eight two five zero two eight. We love hearing from you guys and love know what you're taking away from these discussions. Big thank you to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us on iTunes by subscribing to the show. And you can always support us financially at clear read today show dot com.
John, what are we leaving listeners with today? Want to plug all of Dr. Shah's exclusive content over on prey dot com. You can follow him right then and there. I think we have crossed five K followers. A big thank you to everyone who's following Dr. Abadan Shah. We're now we want to get to five point five K. So make sure you head on over to prey dot com. You can download that app for free right now.
You can also give financially. Thank you to everyone who's giving over on prey dot com app. We're at five point eight over at eight thousand. That was huge.
That was a huge jump. Wow. We're at five thousand the other day. Eight that. All right.
Eight thousand. Thank you, David. I just found that out. Wow. Yeah, it's over.
Just like that. Anyway, we are very, very grateful. Hey, let's make it a nine thousand that we can celebrate Dragon Ball Z style. It was a very nice reference. The people who get it will get it. They'll thank me for it. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Cleary today.
