This episode of Clearview today is brought to you by Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water. When you drink Le Bleu, you're only getting two ingredients, hydrogen and oxygen. Le Bleu is the leading choice for hydration with a patented process that removes impurities and ensures the highest level of purity possible. Unlike other bottled waters, Le Bleu's ultra pure filtration system provides water that is free from contaminants and infused with only the essentials your body needs. So whether you're at home, on the go or working hard, Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water offers a refreshing, crisp taste with every sip. It's going to give you the hydration you need without the worry. So make the smart choice today and experience the difference of Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water. You can find out more and order online at Le Bleu. That's L-E-B-L-E-U.com and make sure when you check out, you tell them the Clearview Today show sent you. You can use promo code T-O-D-A-Y at checkout to get 10% off your next order. It's going to save you money and it's going to support all of us here at the Clearview Today show.
So stay hydrated, stay healthy. And without further ado, let's start the show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today studio. Got a great conversation, great topic for you guys today. A lot of good news going on in the world. We love good news. This whole week's been full of good news and I got more good news for you. We're introducing our host of the show, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio.
It's good to be here. Expert jet skier? No, I don't think so. I'm just going to add, just tack one on. Just, you know, roll the dice, get a random one.
Oh, like a random credential? Yeah. Oh dude, you just got like, um, astronaut. You don't want to be an astronaut right now.
Katy Perry and Gayle King have ruined that for everybody. But speaking of good news, Dr. Shah, you bring us the good news every single Sunday. Thank you.
Thank you. Praise the Lord. God's word is powerful and it deserves to be preached in power, in passion, truth, integrity.
It's all about Christ. That's the good news. Amen.
Well, I got even more good news for you. We're starting it today with the word of God. Starting with the verse of the day from Ephesians 5, 1 says, therefore be imitators of God as dear children. One of the most wonderful and also daunting things about children is that they're copycats.
They're little parrots. So whatever you say and do around them, they're going to mimic for good or for bad. Mimicry is the greatest form of flattery. So in life we mimic people because we find something in them that is worth emulating. And that's wonderful.
It may be your parent, it may be a teacher, a professor that you find to be such a great model of knowledge, of wisdom, of their lifestyle is so worthy to be emulated. And so that's wonderful. But here it's calling us to imitate God. Can you read that verse again?
Yeah, absolutely. Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. So we are called to imitate our heavenly father.
Now on the surface, it seems like a very straightforward, simple thing. Just be like God. But I want you to think about in those difficult moments, what does it mean to be like God?
Good. So difficult moments are things like what God has to deal with with us, starting with our disobedience, starting with our wandering away from God, starting with also many times we treat God with contempt. How does God treat us? He still loves us. He still forgives us. He still wants to bring out the best in us. He does not hold grudges. He does not hate us forever.
He wants to draw us back to himself. Of course, he doesn't tolerate sin. And there is judgment at times and there is discipline, I would say for believers, not judgment as much, but discipline. But at the same time, he is always willing to love. So I would say it's easy to imitate God and like, oh, I love wisdom. Or I love to walk by the Spirit.
It's harder in those moments when you have to forgive people or you have to give people another chance. So be imitators of God. That's right. That's right. You know, Dr. Shaw, we got a daily check-in today coming to us from a pastor in Arkansas.
And I picked this check-in specifically for today because I thought it went so good with today's topic. This is coming from Pastor Timothy G. in Arkansas. What do you think the G stands for? He's a pastor now.
You got to show respect. I was going to say Groundhog. Timothy Groundhog.
I like that. Hey, Dr. Shaw. My name is Timothy Groundhog and I pastor a small church just outside of Little Rock, Arkansas. I've been catching your show lately on Pray TV shout out to Pray TV.
And I have been hooked ever since. Out of curiosity, I looked up your church and I was surprised. I figured you were a massive operation with hundreds on staff and a multi million dollar media. Thank you, Pastor Tim. That's high praise.
But you're not. You're a faithful church doing big things with a clear message and it's clear that God's hand is on it. I want you to know you've sparked something in me. We're a small congregation, maybe 150 on a good Sunday, but we love Jesus and we want to make an impact just like you're doing. Seeing what you're doing reminds me that God doesn't need big.
He needs willing. So thank you. You've put a little more hope into the small town pastor's heart.
Grateful for what you're doing. Pastor Tim Groundhog, Hope Fellowship, Arkansas. That's awesome.
That is a great check in. Thank you, Pastor Tim. We appreciate that. I love him saying that, you know, you sparked something in him, this kind of desire to do more, to be willing to be used by God. And I love his choice of words because I love his choice of words because a lot of people would be like, oh, I thought you were like a big church, but you're not. Y'all are small.
But he says, no, you're a faithful church. And I appreciate that wording because I know that's typically what people say. Because we're not a huge, huge operation. But at the same time, we are impacting a lot of lives and I never want to shy away from that for the sense of false humility.
You've taught me, Dr. Shah, that it's good to want to make big impact. Right. Absolutely. I think any pastor or any church that is from the get-go wants to be small, there's something wrong with that.
Right. What does small really mean? Does that mean cozy to you? Does that mean us four and no more?
And we just love our little group and we just don't want it to grow because moment you start growing, it's just going to bring other people in. Think about what it means to keep other people out. It means they're going to a place called hell. That's right. Now, we're not saying that people, if they don't go to your church, that they're going to hell, that they may be going to another church or other churches. So we're not talking about come to our church exclusively if you want to go to heaven.
That's not true. But people who are lost and they're out there and you are happy with staying cozy and small, there's something really wrong with your understanding of the gospel. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because why on earth would you, even if you say, okay, well I just can assume that they're going somewhere else, they're going to someone else's church. Why be a pastor then? Right. What you, if you want like a country club, just go make a country club.
And it's not even a country club, it's a small little family gathering. Is that mindset rooted in fear? Fear of change, fear of disrupting the status quo, fear of the wrong kind of people coming in?
I think it comes from our desire to maintain control over the organization. So if it grows, then it's too many people I got to keep up with. It's too many changes or things are happening and I'm not aware of it. And you have to let go of that mindset that if things are happening, you're not aware of it. Unless there are bad things that are happening, it's okay.
It's okay. So this is the word to those who are listening to us or watching us today and you are in that church situation where you see the church is growing and now you're seeing people you don't know and maybe your church has multiple services or maybe you see a pastor or church leaders or staff giving attention to other people. Don't let that get to you. Instead, think of it this way.
They're doing that so that more people will walk away from hell and walk into heaven. Great point. This is not just a little country club. This is a rescue operation.
Wow, that's a great way to put it. A rescue operation. And I'm not the first one to say that.
It's been said many times before. It's a rescue operation. So imagine showing up at a fire because I'm a chaplain with the local fire departments and you go, how many are we saving today? We're gonna save as many as we can.
Are you sure that's in the budget? Yeah, let's say it's an apartment complex. Well, guys, listen, when we get into the fire truck, I like it when it's just three or four because I feel like I connect with them.
I feel like I get to know them. Yeah, but they're burning up in that apartment. There's like 20 people burning. Well, maybe they have other firefighters. Yeah, other firefighters should get that. No, what do firefighters do? They risk their lives to go in and get every person out.
Now, as much as I appreciate firefighters and think the world of them and the brotherhood they have, our job as pastors or even church people, I think is far more significant than any fire department. That's right, because eventually that fire will burn out. That fire is going to go away. But there's a fire coming for people that is eternal. And it says the worm never dies, which means this is a fire of eternal torment. And it's not even a fire that you can see. This is a fire that is there's darkness forever. So imagine that and you don't want your church to grow.
That's right. Well, just to keep the good news rolling, you know, we live in this world where headlines highlight church closures and all this declining church attendance. But there is a surprising note of optimism among all these pastors, especially Protestant pastors. There was a recent LifeWaste research study, Dr. Shull, you actually sent this to us, that revealed that there's 94, 94 percent of pastors believe their churches are still going to be around in 10 years. Four percent disagree. They're like, I don't think my church will be here in 10 years. And two percent aren't sure. Ninety four percent of pastors said, yes, I'm confident my church will be here in 10 years.
I got it. I got to say this might be to my own shame. I was not expecting that. Yeah, I was not expecting that high for them to have that level of confidence in their church's staying power. I would say this and I don't have hardcore research in front of me and maybe that research is in this report. I don't know that it's not that the small, small churches that end up closing the most. Of course, small churches do close. I don't think it's the small churches by and large are the ones that are closing the most. Because small churches have a smaller budget, small expenses, and they are usually run by families who are very loyal to that church, especially if they are out in the country or they've been around for more than 50 to 100 years, they have graveyards, they have windows with little plaques under there or plaques all over the building. So they have a vested interest in preserving that small church. I think, yeah, especially family oriented, like you said, because once that older generation dies, if the younger people in that family have those same values, they're going to do everything they can to keep grandma's church.
Grandmaster's going. And all that is fine. I'm not against that. I think that's great that there is some motivation keeping that going, but I don't think that's necessarily what the Bible wants us to do. Because biblically, the churches should grow not just because there is family loyalty. All of that's great. Again, I'm not knocking that.
I think it's great. At least there is some motivation, but it should be growing because you want to be building God's kingdom in your community. That's what a church is supposed to be.
That's right. So some of these small churches, I don't, I think the report is right. They're not going to close and which is great, but it's for different reasons. I think it's more the medium size or the medium to less than medium sized churches that are usually the ones that end up closing because they are either started by somebody or a group of people who have a passion for the gospel, or they want to plan a church in a community that does not have the gospel.
And then either that generation dies or there are some disagreements in the church and there's a split. And next thing you know, they are down in numbers and they cannot maintain their operations. So they cut back even more, which actually is a catalyst for shutting down completely. So you think that's harder to, do you imagine that would be harder to predict like a medium sized church closing their doors? Like in the sense that like if a smaller church did close its doors, it'd be like, well, they were small. They didn't have the funds to keep going. And usually they don't.
Right. But I guess my question is, do you think it's harder to, do you think a medium sized church closing its doors, do you think they would necessarily see that coming? A medium sized church?
If they shut down? I think they begin to see it. They begin to see it because people leave for various reasons, either their feelings get hurt or they die or whatever's happening and they begin or they move away or they age out and they feel like, oh, I need to move closer to where my children are or my grandchildren are so they leave. So now that medium sized church, since it doesn't have that family loyalty there and times are changing and people are growing old or are moving away or dying or there's a split for whatever reason, that's why those medium sized to medium to lower smaller churches usually end up closing.
And you can see it coming. Churches that have grown, for example like ours has, that start small but then grow to a larger size, do those tend to close or is it sort of other factors that play into that? If a church is on a growth curve, is it destined to keep growing?
Does it always come back down? Is there something else at play? Our church is unique in the sense that it was not founded by us. I didn't start the church in 1998 or 1999 when I came as the pastor. That church was here.
So it has some legacy but don't misunderstand, it doesn't have long legacy. There were families that were very loyal who built this church in the early decades. But over the past few decades, many of those people have either died out or they moved away or they moved churches. Our church went through splits a couple of times. The churches in this town that came out of our church. Way, way before. I'm talking about like maybe back in the 80s and 70s they moved away.
60s even. So there is that spirit of family loyalty in our church. There is a spirit. Without the physical family members still being alive today. There are some but they're not necessarily like the my granddaddy built it. It's not there anymore. Gotcha. I gotcha. But we have the spirit. So I'm glad for that. I'm grateful for at least a spirit of loyalties there. We have with our presence here and our desire to be here long term have created that sense of family loyalty. Like we are the family.
Well that's something that I thought was very intentional. Even when I first started here in 2013 you were already on board with not being a flash in the pan like celebrity church. A lot of the things that you talked about and I was only 21 at the time when I started so I wasn't I mean I wasn't even equipped to think in that way but I remember you always talking about you you do things that pay off in the long run.
You build a church that lasts. It was not about it was not about impressing people. It was more about impact. It was all impact was always the word impact and influence because those are things that last and when do you think you started to shift your thinking or have you always been that way where it's like I'm going to build something that's going to last a long time. Oh yes I've had that mindset even before I came to Clearview because I saw my dad do that.
Gotcha. But coming to Clearview and investing time in studying leadership I read books and I followed people who were big on creating long-term institutions whether it's businesses or churches. Years ago I read a book called Built to Last written by the same author or authors who wrote Good to Great and these are great books by the way and sort of they should be classics in the field of leadership and institutional growth. You say they're required reading. They should be but they're not but I read those books back in the day.
I mean when I say back in the day I'm talking about 2000, 2001, 2002. That's when I was reading Built to Last and so I knew that there's going to be a battle. I knew that it's going to be tough because on one hand we do have that small church mindset a little bit of loyalty there but we don't. So it is positive that we have the loyalty but it's also positive that we don't because we were able to change things.
We were able to create our vision and mission and values and strategic plan so we were able to do those things because we didn't have because if the loyalty is too strong in time it will put a strangle on you that you cannot change. Did it ever frustrate you that what you're building today, what we've built today and what you've built today required 25 years of your life? Did that ever frustrate you or did you know early on that's what it takes? I knew it was going to take that. I knew that that was coming.
Gotcha. See that one of the things that I've learned from working under you and serving here is patience because that would have frustrated me. If you had told me at 21, if you'd shown me like if I'd been able to look into the future to everything that I have and I get to do here at Clearview at 33, if I could have looked into the future at 21 and said this is what it'll eventually be and even beyond that it'll be blessed and it'll continue to grow but it's going to take 13 years.
I'd have been very frustrated. Well I could say the same thing about you know student ministry. When I first started we had a handful. I mean on there were some Sunday nights where we had Bible study we had four that were there and now it's grown drastically with working together over the years and planning things out and implementing culture here and charting things but at 25 when I started I had no idea this would be the trajectory and it just takes patience. It just takes that time.
Yeah but perspective too. I even maybe I'm contradicting my own self because I remember coming in when I met you Dr. Shava the very first time. Well we met in a Denny's but then we I came to the church and you showed me the sanctuary and I remember like now it's a very small room like we there's no way in the world we'd ever be able to hold a service in that room but when I saw it for the first time I was like this is a massive massive church. This is a big room and I remember thinking like I was going through because now it's being that room is being turned into a sunday school wing but I remember walking through it be like I remember when I came here how big this seemed to me and how not overwhelmed but how how God had placed in front of me this this in seemingly enormous undertaking.
So I just I think about that kind of stuff like did it ever frustrate you that I'm gonna have to dedicate my entire life. No it does no it did not frustrate me any of that but I knew the task before me which is to now create loyalty even though loyalty is created when you are there from the start that's when you have that hardcore loyalty and a lot of the small small churches have that because not because those people who originally founded those institutions are still living but their genetic children and grandchildren are still there. So we don't have that we have the spirit of it but we don't have it as much anymore.
Some of those grandchildren are there and children are there but their parents were not the founders they came after the church was sort of founded. So but I wanted to hang on to that legacy and then take it further with building more um you know loyalty among the membership and the new people coming in and getting them to buy into the mission and vision of this church. You mentioned earlier about the loyalty being too strong and that actually having a negative effect.
Yes that can happen. Can you talk a little bit about how to walk that balance like how much loyalty is good versus if our loyalty is too strong it can impede change. You don't want to completely destroy the spirit of loyalty but at the same time you want to make sure that there's enough wiggle room that you can say okay that's good to have but let's now do this. So I tell pastors don't completely try to eradicate that sense of loyalty because it's working in your favor but help the people understand that if your grandparents were here today they would want this. Do you think that battle goes away with time because I remember hearing stories of your early years where people were sort of opposed to change but these days and and this is the blessing that I have to where I've never had to really do that battle. If we want to do something new and creative almost always the church is up for it. I can't think of and I could be wrong but I can't think of a single instance where we're like hey guys we're going to do communion a little bit differently today or we're going to start introducing congregational prayer or we're going to do this fun thing we're going to have a prayer vigil we're going to do this we're going to create a show and everyone's like yes we love it. Do you think that if you confront those battles early in your ministry or early in your pastorate that they get easier and disappear with time the more the church changes? In a sense maybe but there's always going to be people who will come even if they don't have a basis for loyalty but they will like traditions or they will like how things were in their last church and they will bring that same mindset and say oh don't change that or I wish you would do it this way and if some things are great and we welcome them but some things may not be helpful for the growth and the health of the church and we have to go no that's great but we need to do it this way. So I would say I know this discussion is kind of going in a different direction but I think it's I believe this is a very good discussion maybe helping a lot of pastors whether they're for small church or medium church or even a large church to see what you're trying to accomplish and what you're up against or what you have going for you if you just take the time to really examine what's happening. Right because nine out of ten pastors the vast majority of pastors who were interviewed for this poll said that they feel like their church is going to have some longevity so if you feel like you're going to be there for a long time I would imagine a plan for growth is at least somewhat in place and so these tips that Dr. Shaw is sharing with you I mean they'll change your ministry. If pastors are listening and they are encountering some of that firm legacy the the long-lasting family legacy that can sort of drag things and pull things down and sway us away from change what are some ways to tamp that and guide it without completely destroying it? I would say help people like what we did even though we didn't have such a grip of old loyalty but the spirit was there so we asked people that question what would it be like to see your children your grandchildren sitting next to you in church don't you want to see that and even if your children and grandchildren are grown or they're they're involved and settled in another church great that's great but imagine creating a place where they could be there with you. That's a great point that's a great point I think maybe a word for for younger pastors who might be like me that's a lesson that I learned through being here through Dr. Shaw I always thought I was all like young people I think are impressed by oh they have a show they have a like like even Pastor Tim who wrote in it's like wow I love the show I love the setup I love the lights I love the camera I love the impact but Dr. Shaw has taught me that a lot of people most people I would say in fact value their family they value their grandchildren so the hard lesson I've learned is people are not impressed as impressed as I think they are by the the show or the lights or the the it helps them but they they like that it's helping them and helping their families and helping their children and grandchildren right all that fussing and fighting over style of music or lights or no lights there's those such superficial things when we should be having discussions like we are having on this show that's right that's right this is the discussion we need and so I hope there are principles that you're taking away and some things may apply to you some may not but look at your church is it that small church with strong family loyalty is it a small church with sort of a spirit of loyalty like we were is it a medium-sized church that came from a spirit of loyalty is it a medium-sized church which which has zero sense of loyalty is it a large church that came from a spirit of loyalty or from loyalty or is it a large church because of you personality driven or ministry driven find out which one you are and then begin to work towards building a legacy a longevity that will make an impact even after you're gone that's what we're trying to do here at Clearview is is create a culture which will continue until Christ comes and not just like we were there we shown and now we're gone a culture of loyalty and longevity I think that's the perfect title for this episode that's the episode title that's the title sometimes you gotta get there at the end but that's that's Chris I was I was trying to I was trying to like write down the title I was like I'm gonna lose this so I just like say it in the episode love it guys so good make sure you join us tomorrow same time same station we're gonna be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible and don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen or you can always support us financially at Clearview Today show.com John why do you want to leave our listeners with today? Pray.com that is where we are we have gotten so many followers on Pray.com I think we're about to pass 3,500 thank you guys for following I really really really want us to get to 4,000 by the end of the week if you're listening to this on Pray.com right now and you're not following Dr. Shaw first and foremost why what are you doing what are you doing you're already on the app yeah you're already there get over there hit that follow button you can also give thank you to all of you guys who are who are giving and are supporting the ministry we appreciate you we love you and just know that we're making this for you for your family and for your family to come that's right we love you guys we'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today so you so this episode of Clearview Today is brought to you by Mighty Muscadine if you're looking for a natural way to boost your health Mighty Muscadine has you covered from 100% muscadine grape juice to premium healthy supplements every single product is handcrafted to bring you the best of this extraordinary super fruit it's backed by science and best of all every muscadine grape is grown right here in the heart of North Carolina but no matter where you are Mighty Muscadine is your go-to for strength health and vitality you can visit MightyMuscadine.com today and use promo code T-O-D-A-Y at checkout to get 10% off your next order and every single time you use that promo code you're helping us here at the Clearview Today show continue to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ so thanks for your support thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring today's show now let's get started
