Liz Cheney, The Facade of Cary Grant, The Stigma against Mental Health Struggles

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible dot com slash wondery pod or text wondery pod to 500 500 to try Audible for free for 30 days. Good morning. I'm Jane Pauley, and this is Sunday morning. She's a conservative Republican with almost impeccable credentials. So how is it that Liz Cheney has become a pariah in her own party?

This morning, John Dickerson has an eye-opening interview with the former Congresswoman who has plenty to say about the stakes in next year's election. Then we move on to a topic once considered off limits, and yet it's a subject that may be getting far too little of our attention. Each year, thousands of Americans consider taking their own lives.

In fact, last year, a record number actually did just that. Susan Spencer considers if removing the shame and stigma might bring an end to our epidemic of suicidal thoughts. Having made ten attempts on his own life, Clancy Martin is now fighting to save others from suicide. The first step, he says, getting rid of the stigma. We can make huge strides simply by talking with each other about suicide. You feel like lives could be saved, literally, if we could somehow get rid of this stigma?

Absolutely. Good morning, 988. How can I help you?

De-stigmatizing suicide ahead on Sunday morning. Our Seth Joan is traveling back in time this morning for a closer look at Hollywood legend Cary Grant. Why do people have to tell lies? Usually it's because they want something.

They're afraid the truth won't get it for them. He defined what it was to be a movie star in his era, but who was Cary Grant? He's described as a gentleman. He's described as this debonair figure.

He built that. He studied the actors that he admired and he stole bits of them and he built that Cary Grant persona. Taking on the role of Cary Grant and pulling back the curtain on a silver screen legend later this Sunday morning. Tracy Smith has our Sunday profile, actor Taraji P. Henson, the Oscar-nominated dynamo starring in a new musical movie version of The Color Purple.

And I work like a dog day and night. She can command a scene like few others, but when Taraji P. Henson first arrived in Hollywood, she had only $700 and a baby. Did you think the acting dream is over?

No, I became fierce in going after my dreams because there was no time to waste now. I have a kid. The unstoppable Taraji P. Henson coming up on Sunday morning. Jim Axelrod is talking with Geddy Lee of the band Rush for the record and more on this first Sunday morning of a new month, December 3rd, 2023.

And we'll be back after this. Or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Call her a very concerned conservative.

John Dickerson this morning is talking with Wyoming Republican and former Congresswoman Liz Cheney. Given your experience, do you look at politics differently? Do you say, you know, we spent a lot of time demonizing the other side, which put all of our supporters in the mindset of, you know what, they're not just wrong, they're evil. Yeah, absolutely. If everything that a political adversary does is met with, you know, an attack that, oh, my God, this is, you know, the worst possible thing you can imagine, this is dire, then when you face something that really is dire, like we are facing today with respect to Donald Trump and his efforts to unravel the republic, people become numb to the truth because they feel like, well, we've heard that so many times before from politicians.

How do you sound the alarm when people have gotten used to the ringing? That's the challenge for former Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who has had to update even her sense of alarm as Donald Trump's effort to overthrow the last election has not stopped him from becoming the GOP presidential favorite, as an election denier has become Speaker of the House and prominent Republicans have come to embrace election conspiracies as the route to political glory. You once used to say that nobody could challenge your conservative credentials. What if being a conservative today is defined by one thing, your support for Donald Trump? Well, I know what conservative means, and I think that the most conservative of all conservative values is fidelity to the Constitution.

So, you know, there certainly are people today who are caught in this cult of personality, but that's the opposite of conservative. This primary election is over. After losing her 2022 Republican primary, Cheney traded the U.S. Capitol dome for the Thomas Jefferson-designed rotunda at the University of Virginia, where she has been lecturing on politics and writing a new book, Oath and Honor. Let me ask you about that oath. If a person is a member of Congress and they've sworn an oath to defend the Constitution, can they defend the Constitution and also endorse Donald Trump? No.

It's inconsistent. So they're breaking with their oath by saying they would like him to be the next president? In my view, you know, fundamentally, there is a choice to be made. You can't both be for Donald Trump and for the Constitution. You have to choose. That's a lot of people who are choosing Donald Trump.

Yeah, it is. In the aftermath of the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol, Cheney was one of only 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump. Soon after, she joined the democratically-led committee to investigate the attack. Tonight, I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible.

There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. Once the No. 3 leader in the House Republican conference, Cheney was shunned by it. But she found an ally in then-Speaker of the House California Democrat Nancy Pelosi. I don't know that I had ever spoken more than a few sentences to her before she called me and asked me to be on the committee. I learned later that her staff put together for her a list of the top 10 worst things Liz Cheney has ever said about Nancy Pelosi and gave it to her. And she apparently took one look at it and said, why are you bothering me with things that don't matter?

Would you take back some of the 10? Oh, sure. We've all said things about each other that we probably, in hindsight, wish we hadn't said. Cheney came to Washington in 2016, along with Donald Trump. Didn't like him, she said, but she supported his policies on issues like abortion and gun control. She voted with him more than 90 percent of the time. Certainly. I think all of us in the Republican Party watched things unfold to some extent before 2020 and said, well, that's just Donald Trump.

You don't have to take it seriously. I think what we saw that was different post-2020 election was the actual attempt to overturn the election and seize power. Cheney's book also details the groundwork laid by Trump's allies in the weeks leading up to January 6th. In the book, you spend a fair amount of time on a previously relatively obscure Louisiana congressman. This is Mike Johnson. You know, Mike and I were good friends, but what I learned was that, in fact, he was operating in a way that was dangerous.

Why dangerous? It was dangerous because what Mike was doing was taking steps that he knew to be wrong, doing things that he knew to have no basis in fact or law or the Constitution. And Mike was willing time and again to ignore the rulings of the courts, to ignore what state and federal courts had done and said about the elections in these states in order to attempt to do Donald Trump's bidding. So he was asserting not only facts for which he had no evidence, but which the courts had already ruled had no merit. Right.

Exactly. We asked Speaker Mike Johnson for comment. His office tells Sunday Morning Cheney's book does not present an accurate portrayal of those events and that he wishes her the best. In that book, Cheney itemizes each turn with Johnson before January 6th. A lot of attention for a name she expected few of her readers to know, but she felt Johnson's sleight of hand was emblematic of Republicans who don't just go along with Trump's deceptions but boost them. She had no idea she was writing about a future speaker. The Speaker of the House is a collaborator to overthrow the last election. Absolutely. What happens if Mike Johnson is the speaker on the 6th of January 2025?

He can't be. You know, we're facing a situation with respect to the 2024 election where it's an existential crisis and we have to ensure that we don't have a situation where an election that might be thrown into the House of Representatives is overseen by a Republican majority. So you would prefer a Democratic majority?

I believe very strongly in those principles and ideals that have defined the Republican Party, but the Republican Party of today has made a choice and they haven't chosen the Constitution. And so I do think it presents a threat if the Republicans are in the majority in January 2025. It's a threat Cheney hopes she can be clear enough about to break through the political numbness. You say Donald Trump, if he is reelected, it will be the end of the Republic.

What do you mean? He's told us what he will do. People who say, well, if he's elected, it's not that dangerous because we have all of these checks and balances don't fully understand the extent to which the Republicans in Congress today have been co-opted. One of the things that we see happening today is sort of a sleepwalking into a dictatorship in the United States. Donald Trump a fascist? I think that he certainly is employing fascist techniques. I think that the tools that he's using are tools that we've seen used by authoritarians, fascists, tyrants around the world. The things that he has said and done in some ways are so outrageous that we have become numb to them.

What I believe is the cause of our time is that we not become numb, that we understand the warning signs, that we understand the danger and that we ignore partisan politics to stop him. I shrugged it all off. That is until a couple of years ago when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother, who was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. This past week, new figures from the CDC found more Americans took their lives last year than in any year they've ever been. If you do the math, it works out to some 132 suicides every day. Susan Spencer explains how stopping the shame surrounding suicide might be a way to prevent some of those deaths.

Gardening at home in Kansas City, Missouri, Clancy Martin hardly looks like someone who has struggled for years with grim thoughts of suicide. It was just all day every day wanting to die, wanting to take my own life. It started young, very young. At six, he ran in front of a bus, the first of ten suicide attempts over the years. One time I pushed myself off a building and a friend who almost went over with me grabbed me from behind who I didn't even know was there.

It's a miracle that I'm alive and I'm so grateful for that miracle. Suicidal thoughts at six may be rare, but now 56, Martin fits one of the demographics most likely to die by suicide. White males, middle-aged and older. But in America today, every demographic is at risk. Suicidal ideation is actually so common in the general population, about one in five high school students. Psychiatrist Christine U. Moutier, who heads up the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, says this is a public health crisis, pure and simple. In the United States, in the last year, it's something like 13 million Americans, and those are just the adults, have been having serious thoughts of suicide at some point. Americans are dying by suicide at record rates. In 2021, nearly 50,000 people in this country have died by suicide. Nearly 50,000 people?

Yes. Tia Dole, a psychologist at Vibrant Emotional Health in New York City, puts part of the blame on an epidemic of loneliness. People in this country are really struggling with isolation, with sadness, with anxiety, and suicide is an option for them. On average, a staggering 132 Americans kill themselves every single day. One suicide death is too many, so 130-something a day is actually an enormous and tragic loss of life, many times prematurely, many times preventable. And prevention, she says, must start by getting rid of the stigma around the subject. We know from research that young people and adults, some percentage of them, like half, do not tell anyone about their experience until they have a suicide attempt. That is because stigma is clouding the picture to say that I should feel ashamed. I can't out myself as having these very human experiences of mental health suffering and suicidal thoughts. So that compounds the likelihood that they'll go through with it.

Right. It keeps them from being able to take the step to open up, to talk about what they're experiencing, and then to get the help that they need. Even now, even when we talk about every single subject and there's nothing off limits, suicide is off limits. Author Carla Fine has been writing and speaking about suicide for more than two decades. This is when we were just married. Her journey began with her own devastating experience.

That's probably the last picture we have together. Her husband killed himself at 43. I was angry and I was confused and I was horrified and I was in disbelief and I was numb. I was every single thing looking at this.

Dr. Harry Rice, Carla's husband, a board-certified urologist and an assistant professor at NYU Medical School, was at the peak of his career when he died. How did the stigma surrounding the subject affect you at the time? My first reaction was not to tell the truth. What do you mean? I told people that Harry died of a heart attack.

Why? I thought at that point that I was protecting him. I didn't want people to think he was crazy. He was such a great doctor. I didn't want people to think, what's wrong with Harry?

And then I thought, wait a minute, I think I'm protecting myself. When people die by suicide, I do think that folks make a character judgment about the person who died. That means there's something wrong with them. Or they failed, somehow.

They failed or they're a bad person. Psychologist Dole heads the newly revamped 988 National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Good morning, 988. How can I help you? A $232 million federally funded project. Last year, its trained counselors answered five million calls.

Muchas gracias por decir mis información. You have a suicidal young person. They talk to one accepting adult and it reduces their risk of suicide by 40 percent. You're telling me that 15 to 20 minutes on the phone can literally save someone's life. Yes.

Yes. We talk people figuratively and literally off of bridges. Some people will call us when they're standing on a bridge and we'll talk them down.

Sometimes we send emergency services to their location. Well, what could be more gratifying than feeling like you'd saved someone's life? Oh, you know, people save their own lives.

They are given tools by the counselors and they make the decision to save themselves. It's been more than five years since Clancy Martin's last suicide attempt. He's a professor at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. And he credits the act of writing a book about his experiences with saving his life. My thinking about it miraculously, I'm so grateful, has changed. It's no longer part of my deep belief structure in the way that it was. Not only did he defy the stigma, Martin connected with others, struggling just as he was.

Dr. Moutier. When you live with something that you thought was your own maybe unique and private despair and you finally are brave enough to come out with it only to find that, guess what? A large percentage of the people around you relate to it. That is, that's a powerful experience. Do you allow yourself to believe that you'll never try again?

You know, I want to knock on wood as I say this, but I don't think I am ever going to make an, I don't want to say it out loud, but yes, I allow myself to believe that I am never going to try again. Binge the entire series now. Agent of Betrayal. The double life of Robert Hansen is available on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Stephen Colbert here. I have my own, the show has a podcast, the Late Show Pod Show, and I'm here with the producer, Becca. Becca, what are we doing?

What is this? So the Late Show Pod Show, it's everything you love about the Late Show, the monologue, the lead guest. And am I correct about this, that you actually get things in the podcast often that aren't on the show, because we had to cut things for time. And so you get more guests, or you might even get some jokes or some more meanwhiles or something like that, we didn't get a chance, or certainly conversations with Lewis and the band that you don't get. So you get more stuff, so if you don't listen to the podcast, you're losing money.

It's true, it's true. TV, you can only put so much, you've got to get those commercial breaks in, but the podcast, we can keep going. So that's the great thing about podcasts, is that the real estate is enormously cheap. And so you can just shovel anything in there and people go, thank you? Listen to the Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert wherever you get your podcasts.

I use the internet. I think it pisses God off if you walk past the Color Purple and not notice it. A musical film version of The Color Purple premieres later this month with Academy Award-nominated actor Taraji P. Henson in a starring role. Reason enough for this Sunday profile from Tracy Smith. We're rolling.

Here we go, guys. Stepping out on a Hollywood penthouse balcony with Taraji P. Henson, it seems she knows just how high she's come up in the world. That's why I always tell when I go speak to inner city children, I'm always like, just get out of your zip code. Because you go to some of these towns, they've never left their zip code. They've never been downtown in their own city.

So how can they dream? Right, right. Boy, you got out of your zip code.

I got out of my zip code. Truth is, she's entered the stratosphere. In the musical film version of the classic The Color Purple, opening Christmas Day, she stars as Shug, a woman who sings, dances, and generally breaks the rules.

Now ladies, I need you to work a little harder. Henson says she actually turned down the chance to play the role on Broadway. Broadway is tough. I don't know if you know, that's eight shows a week.

You know, it's a lot. And because I was trained in theater and I've done musical theater before, I just knew I wasn't ready. I was like, I don't have it.

But she has it here, just another showcase for an actor with talent to burn. What are you gonna do? Push the button!

Push the button! Taraji Penda Henson, the name means Hope Love in Swahili, grew up in inner city Washington D.C. and studied electrical engineering before switching to drama. And then talk about making plans makes God laugh. Your junior year you got pregnant. Yeah. Did you think the acting dream is over?

No, no. If anything that I became fierce in going after my dreams because there was no time to waste now. I have a kid and now it's not just me anymore.

So I don't have time for the BS. After she graduated Howard University with her son in her arms, her father Boris urged her to go west to pursue her acting dream. And so with a new baby and only $700 to her name, she came to L.A. and started making the rounds, doing guest shots on shows like ER. What you doing in here, Mozell? She come to see Lil' Twan.

Man, I don't think so. What business is it of yours who I come to see? Oh, this is my business, girl. Chill, girls, chill.

Okay, take it outside, both of you, now. Her first real breakout role came opposite Terrence Howard in the 2005 hit, Hustle & Flow, as a first-time backup singer on a song about the challenges of a certain line of work. You know it's hard out here for a pimp when he trying to get this money for the rent. She still remembers making Hustle & Flow as one of the highlights of her life. Even if I wasn't in the scene, I would stay on the set all night long just because we were just so happy to be there. I haven't done that since then. That was that special.

That was that special. Now I go, um, I'm done. Bye, y'all.

Have fun. You might not recall that the song was nominated for an Academy Award or that it won. The Oscar goes to... It's hard out here for a pimp. Oh, my God.

You know what? I think it just got a little easier out here for a pimp. Strangely, it did not get a lot easier for Taraji P. Henson.

Her roles got a lot bigger, but her paychecks didn't always measure up. For instance, she asked for $500,000 for a big role opposite Brad Pitt. I wasn't even being greedy. I knew that I was up and coming, but surely I know I can make you $500,000 with my fan base. And did you get $500,000? No. I was offered $75,000, and then we fought and fought until we got $150,000.

$150,000. Oh, you sing some pain. Some joy, too? Sure, sure I did.

Yeah, that's what I want to hear. But her Oscar-nominated performance, it turns out, was priceless, as was her role in the 2016 film Hidden Figures. It's the true story of the black women who helped get the space program off the ground, even as they were treated like second-class citizens. What do you mean there's no bathroom for you here? There is no bathroom.

There are no colored bathrooms in this building, or any building outside the West Campus, which is half a mile away. Henson was riveting as mathematician Katherine Johnson. And I work like a dog, day and night, living off a coffee from a pot none of you want to touch! Oh, my God. And when the Hidden Figures cast won a SAG Award, Henson summed it all up in a speech for the ages. This story is of unity. This story is about what happens when we put our differences aside, and we come together as a human race. We win.

Love wins every time. On TV, Henson was reunited with Terrence Howard in the primetime soap, Empire, as his vengeful ex-wife, Cookie. But she needed some convincing. You didn't want to do Empire at first. I did not. Because? Because I didn't read it, to be quite honest. I was just, I heard about it, and I was like, that sounds stupid. But she went on to win a Golden Globe for the role, and helped make the show a smash. Hush.

Put it on. And now, in The Color Purple, her character helps other women to see how strong they can be. You could say Taraji P. Henson does that, with every role she takes on. This brings us very nicely back to The Color Purple. What do you hope people take from this film? Time is up when the heart stops.

As long as you got a beat in your heart, it's time to make your wildest dreams come true. What did you take from it? It just reminds me of how powerful we are as women when we stick together. And then this doesn't mean that we're coming after you men. If we stick together, you're taken care of. Relax. You know men get nervous.

The women, the girls are sticking together. You will benefit. Trust me. As you've probably heard, trailblazing retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor died on Friday. Our appreciation is from O'Connor biographer Evan Thomas. When Chief Justice Warren Burger escorted Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman justice in the court's 200-year history, down the steps of the Supreme Court, he said to the reporters, You've never seen me with a better looking justice yet, have you? Well, you know, Sandra O'Connor did not love that. But it was 1981, and she was used to this sort of thing.

She just smiled. She was tough, she was smart, and she was determined to show that women could do the job just as well as men. One of the things that she was smart about was staying out of petty, ego-driven squabbles. At the court's private conference, when Justice Antonin Scalia started railing against affirmative action, she said, Why, Nino, how do you think I got my job? But when one of her law clerks wrote a zinger into her opinion to hit back at Scalia in public, she just crossed it out. In 24 years on the Supreme Court, Justice O'Connor was the decisive swing vote in 330 cases. She was in the majority in the last term on all but eight decisions.

In virtually every 5-4 decision of note, O'Connor's was the fifth, the deciding vote. That is a lot of power, and she was not afraid to wield it, upholding abortion rights and affirmative action in the election of President George W. Bush, although she later regretted the court had involved itself in that case. She also knew how to share power and credit. She was originally assigned to write the court's opinion in United States v. Virginia, which ruled that state schools could not exclude women.

But instead, O'Connor turned to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who at that time had only been on the court for a couple of years, and said, This should be Ruth's opinion. Justice Ginsburg told me I loved her for that. Justice Clarence Thomas told me she was the glue. The reason this place was civil was Sandra Day O'Connor. She left the court in 2006 at the height of her power. Her husband John had Alzheimer's and she wanted to take care of him.

He sacrificed for me, she said, now I want to sacrifice for him. How lucky we were to have Sandra Day O'Connor. I idealize them. Every woman I meet I put up there. Because the longer I know her, the better I know her. It's hard to keep them up there, isn't it?

Pretty soon the pedestal wobbles and then topples. He was, as they say, central casting for a leading man, full of confidence, charisma, and charm. But that image of actor Cary Grant was carefully crafted by Cary Grant himself.

Seth Doan dropped by the set of a new series on a true legend of Hollywood. You're Cary Grant. No, I'm not Cary Grant. But he wasn't Cary Grant either, is the point. Everybody wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant. But I'm not.

I'm this slut up here. Actor Jason Isaacs is portraying one of the best-known stars of the silver screen. But it turns out there was plenty audiences did not know about this debonair actor. Is that good? No, thank you.

He was in more than 70 films, yet his biggest role may have been playing Cary Grant, a name, a persona he created. I know. I look vaguely familiar. Yes. You feel you've seen me somewhere before? Mm-hmm.

I have that effect on people. Hollywood's leading man was in fact an Englishman born into poverty and named Archibald Leach. His odyssey is the subject of a new series. Thank you. All right. Okay, guys, can we have you back on set?

Yeah. He invented Cary Grant. Cary Grant was a character to save him from himself, to build a career, and to try and exercise his demons. It's part of my therapy.

Why do you need therapy? Oh, there's a lot about me you don't know, Diane. We were on set last year in Spain as they were shooting Archie, which is out this week on the British streaming service BritBox. In his early career, Cary Grant was the master of screwball comedies and a light, romantic leading man. Jeff Pope is the writer and creator of the series. And then Alfred Hitchcock spotted something in him and cast him in very dark thrillers. He's got a knife. Look out. Listen to me.

I have nothing to do with this. This story explains what it is that Alfred Hitchcock saw. It's a thriller, a real-life thriller. You don't think of the life of Cary Grant as being a thriller? No.

No, you don't. You do think of him, you know, as this incredibly suave, who's my mum's favourite movie star. There he is. And there he is now.

Like that. While Jason Isaacs was playful on set, he told us it was serious work delving into Grant's character off screen. He was a private man. He was an incredibly private man. In fact, one of the hardest things was trying to work out what he spoke like. You can't find a recorded interview with him anywhere. He was born in Bristol, England.

His father was said to be abusive and an alcoholic and committed his wife to an asylum, telling the young Archie she was dead. Leach made his own way to the US and into show business. Have you ever spoken any lines? Not yet. I've mostly done vaudeville, you know? Tumbling and stuff.

But I'm willing to give it a try. What accent did you get, kid? English. I'm from Bristol. Okay, thank you.

Next. So when he was a young actor in New York trying to make it, he was told he'd never make it with that accent. And he ended up with this thing that he's trying to sound American. His speech patterns on screen are almost always exactly the same. They weren't in life, of course.

You know, you spill a hot coffee on someone's lap, they don't go, oh, it's a rather hot coffee. He wasn't that thing. He worked really hard at being that thing in public. And what we're showing is who he was when he shut the front door. Did you know of this person, Archie Leach? No, I didn't. Actor Diane Cannon was Cary Grant's fourth wife and mother of his only child, Jennifer.

Both are producers of the series. Did Cary Grant play Cary Grant at home with you? Did he ever let that facade down? Oh, sure, yes, he did, of course.

Real people have emotions. He had a very tough boyhood. He was abandoned, felt left alone, unloved, unneeded, unwanted, deprived. Shall I go on?

All those things. And, of course, who we came to know as Cary was this magnificent, gorgeous leading man, a personality that never stopped. He was so graceful. And what a gorgeous body. And he never exercised. It used to really tick me off.

And he looked great with no clothes on, I will tell you. You make a lot of people envious with Steven. Eat your heart out.

Tell me about the women in your life. Oh, you want to have this push over? I am. I hope not. One of the scenes they were shooting when we were with them in Malaga was the scene where your character, or you, are confronting Cary Grant with the rumors of him being gay.

You write about it in your book. I think early on in Palm Springs I said to him, you know, I hear these rumors, are they true? And I never saw any indication of it.

And as far as I know, Cary was faithful to me when we were married. That wasn't the problem. Fear was. What do you mean by that? Fear that he would be abandoned.

Fear that he would not be loved. Grant was a star by the time he learned his mother was actually alive in England. You're Cary Grant. Not to you, Mum.

Just aren't you? But the world only really ever knew him as Cary Grant. He would retire from acting, becoming, by all accounts, the doting father he never had. Grant died in 1986 at age 82. I enjoy playing him in his 80s a lot. He's a very different man. When he stepped away from the limelight he thought was sustaining him, I think he found out how little good it was doing him. It reminds me how complicated we all are to delve deeply into anyone's life like this.

Even the people who seem to have everything we want. That's a rush. One of rock music's most influential bands. Jim Axelrod talks with a founding member, Geddy Lee, for the record. Cheers. Cheers. At Henderson's Brewery in Toronto. Quite a full-bodied beer, and yet it's light at the same time.

Two best friends, business partners for decades, have a new venture. This is Rush Canadian Golden Ale. And as Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson know, anything connected to their band Rush will most likely be a hit. 55 years after they formed Rush in the suburbs of Toronto, Lee is out with a memoir. We all think we know ourselves, but we keep secrets from ourselves. It takes sometimes a deep dive like that to turn over all the stones and see, wow, that was me.

Geddy Lee may now live a rock star's life, with some of his 350 bass guitars lining his home studio. I'm not looking for anymore. So he says.

But it's nothing he could have ever imagined. This son of Jewish immigrants. Your given name is Gary. And my mom had a very thick accent, and so she said, Geddy, come in the house. And that's how my name was born. Geddy, come in the house. Holocaust survivors who had courted at Auschwitz.

It's a miracle I'm sitting here and able to enjoy the fruits of my life, all because they held out and survived. That life his parents' determination provided was changed forever in eighth grade, when Lee started chatting with a kid sitting nearby in the back of the room. We were really goofy. It's so odd when he uses the word goofy, the future rock stars are always the coolest guys in the room. We wanted to be cool, but we were too goofy to figure out how to do that. Alex was on guitar, and Geddy played bass a few years later, when they held auditions for a drummer. And to our everlasting good fortune, a lanky, shirtless, goofy guy pulled up in a Ford Pinto and started playing triplets like machine gun rattle.

Neil Peart completed the lineup that would stay together for the next four plus decades. Their blend of musicianship, stagecraft, and yes, a little goofiness, inspired intense loyalty from a crowd that was largely male teenagers in the early days. Maybe some of the people watching you were like, I'm so tired of going to high school every day and worried about how I look and what I'm wearing and being cool. Alienation, you know, can relate to that.

I mean, who wasn't alienated as a teen? Living in the limelight, the universal dream. Though the album Moving Pictures had fan favorites like Limelight and Tom Sawyer, its singles were never their jam. We used to sometimes say, wow, that's a catchy tune we just wrote. If somebody else played it, it might be a single, but if we play it, for sure we'll **** it up. But they knew what they were doing, combining that big progressive rock sound with Geddy's distinctive voice. Early critics, if your voice was any higher, your audience would consist entirely of dogs and extraterrestrials. That's a good one.

I'll buy that. It was a formula that would sell more than 40 million albums. What's the lesson?

The lesson is be yourself and stick to your guns. And that might have been the whole story behind this legendary rock band. But in 1997, the music stopped. Neil Peart's daughter died in a car crash. It's the worst pain.

The worst possible pain to lose a child. Ten months later, Peart's wife died of cancer. It would take five years for Peart to want to play again. And we walked out on stage as three, just people that were really thankful that we had a second chance to do this. Rush 2.0 was a different band.

How? More appreciative, looser. We just started saying yes to things we normally said no to. A massive candlelight vigil was held last night, led by the Canadian band Rush, which is how they ended up in TV shows like South Park. And movies like I Love You Man. We'd seen more women at our shows, like a lot more.

Like five or six. But it was really interesting to see the growth of the band go from that kind of cliquey thing, culty thing, to something more broader. The Godfather of the Progressive Medal. While they'd be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2013, tragedy wouldn't leave triumph alone. In 2016, Neil Peart was diagnosed with cancer.

He died in 2020. And here you two are, figuring out what the next chapter looks like, and someone's missing. Yeah, it's difficult to figure out what that chapter is without him. Have you and Alex ever talked about, let's go get one of the great drummers and tour again? Have we talked about it?

Yeah. Will it happen? It's not impossible. But at this point, I can't guarantee it. While Alex strikes a more hopeful note.

It's just not in our DNA to stop. Rush fans should know, however they continue to collaborate. Oh, my goodness. This is Rush mustard.

They'll do it the way they always have. Do what you believe, because if you do what someone else believes, and you fail, you got nothing. If you do what you believe and you fail, you still have hope. Cheers. It's good. Yeah, it's great. Thank you for listening. Please join us when our trumpet sounds again next Sunday morning. at wunderly.com, slash, survey.