Mitt Romney, All the Light We Cannot See the Movie, Jim Thorpe

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That's amazon.com slash true crime ad free to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Good morning. I'm Jane Pauley and this is Sunday morning. This past week, we got a revealing look at politics in action as House Republicans repeatedly tried and failed to choose a new speaker. But another inside view of government is coming from an unlikely source. A man who was once the Republican Party's standard bearer. A man who's now become one of its critics. Nora O'Donnell is talking with Senator Mitt Romney of Utah. Mitt Romney recently surprised people when he announced he will not seek reelection. And now in a new biography, he tells all about what fellow Republicans say behind closed doors. You were once the party's nominee. And now you're a pariah in the Republican Party. Yeah, that's that's saying it in a gentle way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, no question.

I don't really have a home in my party. Coming up on Sunday morning, Mitt Romney on his life and legacy. He was one of the most memorable composers of our times. Tracy Smith offers a tribute to the late Henry Mancini, a television and movie composer whose work was quite simply instrumental. How do you remake a legendary record when it comes to Henry Mancini's Moon River?

The answer is with love. When the Mancini family asked you, hey, could you record Moon River? Your reaction when the Mancini family calls and asks you to be part of honoring the legacy of a genius. You say thank you so very much. I would love to be there.

I am crossing you in style. The remaking of a masterpiece with Michael Buble and more later on Sunday morning. Our Seth Stone will be talking with an actor who you might say had a lifetime to prepare for her very first role. And now for those who listen to my broadcast for pleasure, her starring role in All the Light We Cannot See started with an audition tape she figured no one would ever watch.

Walk where, Papa? How do you think the performance is different because it's you doing this? It's a lived experience. I think it is quintessential to telling the story truthfully. Turning a disability into a distinct advantage ahead on Sunday morning. California is talking with blues legend Buddy Guy, a performer who has influenced a generation of rock stars. Plus Mo Rocca on a great American athlete and the unlikely place that bears his name. Steve Hartman with a hot breakfast to warm the heart. And more on this Sunday morning for the 22nd of October, 2023.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D audible.com slash wonderypod or text wonderypod to 500-500 to try Audible for free for 30 days. As you've no doubt heard, there's much debate about politicians in Washington remaining in office into their 80s and even 90s. Last month, Senator Mitt Romney said he wasn't going to be one of them, announcing he'll retire at the end of his term. But until then, he's got plenty to do and say, and he's talking with Norah O'Donnell. We may have to poll the senator for a call with the president. Oh, yes, I have a call with the president. It's not every interview that gets interrupted by a call from the president of the United States.

Do you have to be on a secure line? But that's what happened when we sat down with Senator Mitt Romney and his wife, Ann. President Biden phoned last week on the eve of his diplomatic mission to Israel.

The Republican had just returned from his own visit. It was heartbreaking, particularly to meet with the families of the hostages. Their lives are entirely different.

One of the people said, you don't understand, we live in a different world than you do. At age 76, Mitt Romney says he still cares deeply about what is happening around the world. And here at home, he worries deeply about the future of his party. You were once the party's nominee, and now you're a pariah in the Republican Party.

Yeah, that's saying it in a gentle way. I mean, no question, I don't really have a home in my party. I come from a tradition of Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush and George W. Bush and John McCain. Those are the people that have shaped our party. Anti-Putin, anti-Russia, anti-authoritarians, anti-Kim Jong Un character counts. The character of our leaders makes a difference and it shapes the character of our country. That's the party I've come from. And I don't recognize that in the great majority of our party today. And that, for me, is very troubling. This is Romney's first interview since announcing he would not seek re-election.

I think it's time for guys like me to get out of the way and have people in the next generation step forward, because they're going to be shaping the world they're going to be living in. Without having to worry about how voters will see him, he's now concerned about how history views his legacy. That's why he participated in a new biography by McKay Coppins, published by Scribner, part of CBS parent company Paramount Global. And what did you say when your husband said, I'm giving over my private diary to a journalist? I didn't know it. I might have said, that's not a good idea. Oops.

Hey, you maybe want to look through it before and take out a few things. Now that I've read the book, it's like, oh, did I really say that about this person? Oh, my goodness. The book is revealing, with unvarnished opinions and stories of what happens behind closed doors in the famously clubby United States Senate. Privately, what do you hear from fellow Republicans in the Senate? I don't think I've heard a single member of my caucus, the Republicans in the Senate, say, you know, Donald Trump is great. Aren't we lucky to have him as our leader? Donald Trump represents a failure of character, which is changing, I think, in many respects, the psyche of our nation and the heart of our nation.

And that's something which takes a long time, if ever, to repair. In a way, he almost was like a spy behind enemy lines. Romney gave Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic, hundreds of text messages and emails. The two met close to 50 times, often late at night, when Romney would tell all. I think there was something therapeutic for him in being able to sit down and review his entire career, his life.

He was not an authorized biography in the sense that he had any editorial control over the final product. So there were some meetings that felt like therapy sessions. There were some meetings that felt almost confessional in nature. You were quoted in the book as saying, a very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the Constitution.

How did you come to that damning conclusion? Former President Trump said we should set aside the Constitution and reappoint him as president. Why, you had Republicans cheer that.

It's like, wait a second. This is the leader of our party saying we should put aside the Constitution. How can you believe you're following the Constitution if that's the case? Romney, who barely escaped the mob on January 6, 2021, was at the Capitol that day, despite the concerns of his wife, Ann.

I do get death threats, and her feeling was I would not be safe and I shouldn't go. And I said, well, this is a constitutional moment. This is a time when I have to be there. Do we weigh our own political fortunes more heavily than we weigh the strength of our republic, the strength of our democracy, and the cause of freedom? A year earlier, Romney had been the lone Republican senator to vote to impeach then-President Trump for pressuring Ukraine's president to find damaging information on political rival Joe Biden. Mr. Romney.

Guilty. Mr. Romney, guilty. It's a stance that would have been familiar to his father, George Romney, one-time governor of Michigan. In 1964, when Republicans nominated far-right senator Barry Goldwater for president, Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. George Romney took a stand against his own party. The strongest personality on earth cannot deal with the problems of this nation except upon the basis of correct principles. What did you learn from your dad? My dad is my life hero. He was a Republican governor. He refused to endorse the nominee of his party, Barry Goldwater, for president because he thought he was weak on civil rights and extremism.

So that's the person who I try and model myself after, and I'm not quite there. His influence is in every part of our life, and we just still adore him, miss him. Family remains at the center of the Romneys' life. They have 25 grandchildren and two great-grandchildren.

The senator says his wife is his closest advisor, and as we discovered in his private office, she's always close at hand. Normally there's a life-size cardboard cutout of Anne that stands right there, and they have taken it away because they're afraid you'd see it. There it is. See this? And so they gave me this, and we had a good laugh about it. But then I said, don't throw it away.

I want to keep it. So now I have it in my closet. So sometimes when you're just sitting here working away, do you just kind of leave the door open? Well, the door is always open, and that happens to be the men's room right next to it.

So I can assure you that from time to time, I am going to go buy that, all right? The book reports on a phone call to Anne from Oprah Winfrey, alleging that Oprah said if Mitt ran for president, she would be his running mate. Anne Romney tells a different story. You got a call from Oprah.

What did she say? She was trying to figure out how Mitt could do an independent run. I remember trying to explain to her that that doesn't work politically. I was the one that suggested, well, Oprah, why don't you run with him and see how that works? I don't think it was really her thought at all, because I don't think she really wants to be involved in any kind of politics in an active way. As for Mitt Romney's next move… No way you'll run for president in 2024?

And I can't imagine any circumstance, perhaps if Godzilla comes in and removes all the other candidates and so forth, but other than Godzilla stepping in, no, I'm not running for president, not giving it any thought. But he is thinking about how future generations will judge his time in public service. How do you want your children to remember you? Well, they probably already have an image of who I am, but my descendants, I hope will walk away saying, okay, granddad or great-granddad had beliefs which were either right or wrong, but he stood by them. I'd like them to also know that my life is not defined by winning and losing elections. My life is defined by my relationship with my family and my faith. That's what I live for. Those other things are part of the life experience, but that's the defining measure of my life.

Well said. Almost a century ago, a murder-suicide rocked a quiet London neighborhood, but there's a lot more to this story, and I'm documenting my investigation in the new podcast, Ghost Story. Ghosts aren't real.

At least that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happened in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman.

It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunting my childhood room might just be my wife's great-grandmother, who was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen everywhere on October 23rd, or you can binge early and ad-free on Wandery Plus the same day. All the Light We Cannot See was a huge bestseller back in 2014. Now it's been turned into a mini-series. Seth Doan introduces us to the lead actor who shares the story of how she landed the role of a lifetime. My name is Aria Mia Loberti and I am auditioning for the role of Marie-Lor Leblanc in All the Light We Cannot See. She had never acted before, but recorded this simple video after hearing about a Netflix casting call. The part was for the heroine in an adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Anthony Doerr, All the Light We Cannot See. Walk where, Papa?

Aria Mia Loberti, like the main character, is blind. Can you explain why one country wants to own another? Can you explain why one country wants to own another? I cannot. I can't explain any of it.

On the radio, they say the Nazis hate anyone who's different, and they hate anyone who speaks the truth. Maria. Listen to me. Listen. I'm different. I know I am.

I know you've tried to protect me, but I'm different. I know this chair is an original, which I think is really cool. We were on set last year for the filming of the series, which is out next month. Sean Levy, acclaimed for the Netflix hit Stranger Things, is directing.

I hope you will tune in again tomorrow. Did you consider a sighted actor for the role of Marie? Early on, I was open to any kind of casting, but I had this gnawing suspicion that the right way to do this, and the best way to do this, was to do it with an actress, or a non-actress who is new to acting, but who brought the experience that Marie, the character, lives with.

And that meant a low vision or blind candidate, and we saw hundreds and hundreds, and Aria rose to the top. In the epic drama set in World War II, parallel stories unfold and converge. There's Werner, an orphaned German boy forced to join the Hitler Youth, and Liberti's role, Marie-Lor, the protagonist, a young French woman who lost her sight as a girl. It's a story of resilience and the power of kindness in the most unlikely circumstances. We witness the tender relationship with her father, played by Mark Ruffalo, and the intensity of war, all from the perspective of a person who is blind.

The light you get from a piece of coal is actually sunlight. You've gone from not acting at all, to all of a sudden being on the set of this series with veteran actors, director. You know, I was just sort of pulled out of school, and I am so privileged, and so lucky, and so grateful to be able to do this. The Rhode Island native told us when she was younger, she did not think there was a place for a disabled woman like her on screen, so she veered toward academics, becoming a Fulbright scholar, studying language and history, at least until that casting call came.

Thank you so much for this opportunity. Giving her a chance to bring her lived experience to this role. I'm immersing you as the audience into a culture and a mindset in which I live.

It's a lifestyle. It's not choreography. But isn't acting acting? Don't actors inhabit other people's lives? Yes, actors are actors, and everyone, I believe, should have the opportunity to step into someone else's shoes. But there are countless disabled actors, countless blind actresses, and I think we need to make the opportunities for fair and equal jobs in this industry and beyond, and to tell the stories authentically. Welcome to Murray's attic.

The newbie actors seemed at ease on set when we met in Budapest, Hungary. When I first learned, Ingrid would show me the edge of the carpet so I didn't trip. That's what she's doing right now? That's what she's doing right now. Wow.

She and her service dog Ingrid showed us the attic where Murray-Lore's reclusive uncle, played by Hugh Laurie, transmits radio broadcasts during the war. What do you say when you speak? I say, isn't the world a beautiful place?

And then you ask, so why are we destroying it? This actually brings me back to my childhood because… Going on set is like stepping into the book. In the tale, Murray-Lore's father builds her a model city so she can learn to navigate their neighborhood. I'm a 21st century kid, so my version of this is a talking iPhone with GPS.

Do you want to try it? Liberti worked to bridge her life experiences with those of a character from another era, getting help from associate producer Joe Strece. I was legally blind at 19 and then totally blind later. I didn't see myself in media often, like cool and badass like Murray is, and I wanted to help make that happen. Strece is a Netflix consultant who makes sure portrayals of blind or low-vision characters are captured in an honest, sensitive way. Like, one scene I suggested that a character that's interacting with Murray would nod their head yes without saying yes, and realize that the character Murray couldn't see that, and then have to respond to it.

What changes in the performance? Like, instead of the cliché of, oh, I'm playing a low-vision or blind character so I'm going to willfully avoid eye contact with you, the reality is that Aria, like many blind people, has grown up learning to look above the voice, look above the sound. How has your process changed in working with Aria? Frankly, I remember the first time I met Aria, that was the first time I realized that I don't know that I've spent any significant time with a blind person. And I realized that, wow, so many of us have a limited depth of experience with many disabilities. Levy had read the book and says it's a challenge to turn, in his words, an epic novel into a film, but a four-part series gave him the time. Liberti told us she too loved this book when it was published, and today sees this role as much more than just a character in a film. Darkness lasts, not even for one second, when you turn on the light. That's all I wanted to say.

I feel the weight of every single blind girl especially, but every member of the blind community, but also the millions of people who probably have never met a blind person, and this will be the first time they've ever met someone like me, and to be the introduction, it's scary, but it's wonderful. No one person invented rock and roll, but one musician did as much as anyone to inspire some of its greatest stars, a blues legend who's still going strong. California talks with the great Buddy Guy.

I've been mistreated. On a hot Chicago evening this past summer, Buddy Guy was still singing the blues. You know what I'm talking about. A crowd had gathered in Guy's nightclub, appropriately called Legends. With Guy's eight children, they celebrated his birthday, his 87th birthday.

As the last of the great old school bluesmen, Buddy Guy has lived a life that sounds like a blues song. I started picking cotton at six. When I got to be 12 or 13, I was driving the tractor. I've been working 81 years. That's a long time. That's a long time to be working.

And he's still working. He's on a worldwide tour, each night kicking off with his signature lyric. There's my rock of the blues. Put my head down to my shoes.

You're more than alright. You know you're out of sight. The cry of Buddy Guy's voice matches the cry of his guitar. He's been playing since he was a boy, living in this shack in tiny Lettsworth, Louisiana.

His parents were sharecroppers. At first, Guy stripped wire out of the window screens to build a makeshift guitar. He'd heard a song by John Lee Hooker. The first thing I ever learned how to play was boogie chillin'. My dad had finally got an old phonograph that you wind up. And when I learned how to play that, I went walking for three miles because I wanted somebody to hear me.

Because I thought if I moved my fingers from where I had them, I was going to never find that again. In 1957, at age 21, he packed some clothes and a real guitar and took off for Chicago, where blues was big business. Do you remember going up these stairs? A lot of times, yeah. He played sessions at Chess, the influential Chicago record company.

The building is now home to Willie Dixon's Blues Heaven Foundation. What's going through your mind at that moment? I'm in school taking lessons. Taking lessons? From the great Muddy Waters.

I think I might have been about 23 or 24 then. And what else can you ask for sittin' by on Muddy Waters? Whoo! We learned from the masters, Muddy Waters. I'm a man. Howlin' Wolf.

I have a living rooster. But he wanted to be more than just a student. I said, if I stand up and walk down that bar, somebody gonna pay attention to me. And they did. If you wanted to make it, you had to find a way to get people to pay attention to you.

Well, that's what I was doing. I said, I might not sound good, but I'm gonna make somebody think I'm wild. And that's what they first started calling me, the little wild man from Louisiana. His version of the blues was noisy. It was funny, and it didn't really appeal to the head of Chess Records. You developed this style that not everyone liked. Leonard Chess at Chess Records told you, buddy, you're doing too much. Play less.

Calm down. Yep. Until the British heard.

Yes, the British heard and copied. I am the little red rooster. The Rolling Stones.

Two legs are broken. Eric Clapton, who called Guy the best guitar player alive. In America, guitar gods like Jimi Hendrix, Carlos Santana, and Stevie Ray Vaughan all talked about the debt they owed Buddy Guy. What about when all these guys are taking influence from you, and they're becoming huge rock stars, and you're not? Was it hard for you to watch them having that kind of success, playing music that's based on what you do? Sir, they did more for black blues musicians than I did for playing for myself, because they left white America. You know who Muddy Waters and B.B.

King and all that. It's amazing, isn't it? It would take these young guys from England to help America discover something that's already here.

Yeah. These people like the Rolling Stones. People like Eric Clapton become huge stars inspired partly by your dad. How did he feel about that? He's always been very humble about it. I've never heard him say one bad thing about that. I feel like he understood that he had to walk so they could run.

We sat down with three of Guy's children. Rashauna is a rapper. Gregory sometimes joins his dad on stage on guitar.

Carlise has her own blues band. Is he still unpredictable on stage? Yes, sir. He's so intimidating. People say, you look like you're doing fine. I say, I probably have to go and change clothes after that. Look at, no nails.

I bite my nails when I'm like, he gonna call me out there. It wasn't until the early 90s that Guy really got mainstream recognition. His 1991 album, Damn Right I've Got the Blues, won him the first of his eight Grammy Awards. We've got some, not all, some of your Grammy Awards. Yeah, I can't believe it.

Every time I look at it, I feel like crying because I say, you know, how in the world did I get that? I heard you singing Al Green, so you have started something. You've got to keep it up now. In 2012, he played the White House and convinced President Obama to join in. Come on.

Baby, don't you want to go. You might think he'd be satisfied. What do you think has kept him going, kept him touring all these years? He loves what he loves. He loves it. I sit and look at his tour schedule now, and I get tired just looking at it.

And me and my siblings and my peers in the industry, they like WTL. How is he doing that? Are you serious? Got my load you're working, buddy, just don't work on you. In fact, what he's calling his farewell tour is scheduled to run until at least next May and just maybe beyond. Do you ever think about some of the old guys, if they could see this? Buddy Guy is still here. He's got his own club here in downtown Chicago.

They would probably look at me and say, yeah, I did what they asked me to do. Don't let the blues die. And I'm still trying to keep it alive. And that's another rhyme for a song.

Got my load you're working, buddy, just don't work on you. Thank you. Steve Hartman is serving up a morning meal that's nourishing for body and soul. They come together at the crack of dawn from all directions, converging on this tiny house in St. Louis, Missouri, for their weekly Wednesday visit with 66-year-old Peggy Wienckowski.

It's raining. Grandma Peggy brings everyone together. She's just like a built-in grandma to all of us. She cares for us a lot. She really cares for us. The students who visit Grandma Peggy attend Bishop DeBerg High School and are part of what they call the Wednesday Breakfast Club.

Seeing the spread, you can understand why kids might want to come here. But what isn't so clear is how Peggy got roped into hosting. The Wednesday Breakfast Club actually used to meet at this diner. Until one day, a kid named Sam Crow said, you know, my grandma could cook better than this. So the next Wednesday, they showed up at her doorstep.

I'm like, okay. And they came all school year every Wednesday. That was back in 2021, and it continued merrily until that day when all joy was lost. About a year and a half ago, Peggy's grandson, Sam, a sophomore at Bishop DeBerg, was killed in a hit and run. The boy was beloved.

So, of course, breakfast was the last thing on anyone's mind. And yet, the very next Wednesday, and virtually every Wednesday since during the school year, the kids have returned to Grandma Peggy's in numbers far greater than before. Sam would be so proud.

Look at when he started. Everyone coming together for a heaping helping of healing. It melts my heart.

It's really not about the food. Just about being together. We benefit from her.

She benefits from us. It's like we feed off each other and we're like keeping this memory alive. Good morning, guys.

Everyone grieves differently. But those who manage it best always seem to blanket themselves with kindred spirits, sharing the burden, teaching each other to laugh again, and building tradition to make sure those memories are as snug and sustaining as a warm meal at Grandma's. This is the best morning, isn't it?

It makes Wednesdays so much fun. He was one of our greatest composers of beloved music for movies and television. And just in time for his centenary, the late Henry Mancini is getting a fitting tribute. Tracy Smith has been watching it take shape for some time now. Even if you've never been here, you probably recognize Abbey Road. There's the crosswalk, as seen in the famed Ian McMillan cover photo for a Beatles album in the fall of 69. And inside, it's much the same as it was back then. Even the piano used for Lady Madonna is still here. Some of the best-loved music of a generation was played in this room.

And it still is. Last spring, the Royal Philharmonic recorded the instrumentals of composer Henry Mancini's classic, Moon River. As we reported this past February, the Mancini family is re-recording some of the maestro's most famous songs in celebration of what would have been his 100th birthday next year. Last fall, a group of legendary musicians, including Quincy Jones and John Williams, re-recorded Mancini's Grammy-winning Peter Gunn theme. What does it feel like to play it again?

Chris, it sounds almost like it's slurring into B-2. Producer Greg Field, who also happens to be married to Monica Mancini, is leading the effort to honor his father-in-law. I know it's kind of hard to sum up, but what do you think the world should know about Henry Mancini? Well, nobody under 50 probably knows who Henry Mancini is, right? But they know Pink Panther.

You can go virtually anywhere in the world and go up to a 10-year-old and say, Ba-dup, ba-dup, ba-dup, and they immediately know it. And I can't imagine another composer that has created music that, generation to generation, decade to decade, keeps resonating with people. The Pink Panther theme is on the list to be redone. And last April, they held a session in New York City to do just that, with none other than the legendary Sir James Galway on the flute. His bandmates that day included some of New York City's top brass, Greg Field himself on drums, and someone who says James Galway inspired her to pick up the flute herself, Lizzo.

Oh, I love the little panther feet in here. Sir James, I know that you've said you're Lizzo's number one fan, so what's it like recording a song with her? Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Great.

Don't ask him how it feels. This is like a dream come true for me. He's a legend, you know what I mean? I'm honored to just be able to blow flutes with him. And we sound good too. This is the first time that you've played a song for recording together? Yes. We're not ready for a world tour. Yeah, here we go.

Stadiums, baby. The Pink Panther theme is still one of Henry Mancini's most popular tunes, but his crown jewel, it's been said, is Moon River. Johnny Mercer's lyrics about wide rivers and huckleberries are drawn from his memories of a childhood spent in Savannah, Georgia. Henry Mancini wrote the music specifically for Audrey Hepburn to sing and tailored it to fit her limited vocal range. His family says it took him a month to write the first three notes, and once he had those, it only took him a half hour to write the rest. Was your mom reluctant to sing at first?

No? No, I mean, she was realistic about the fact that she didn't have much of a voice. But she always made up for it with the ability to emote and to bring wonderful feeling to it. Hepburn's son, producer Sean Ferrer, knows this firsthand. So what's it like for you to be here? Wonderful. We met him at Abbey Road in May, and he walked us through the story of how his mom kept Moon River from ending up on the cutting room floor. Moon River almost didn't make it into the movie?

It's very funny, actually, yes. We put together the film, and one of the executives at Paramount at the time said, All right, it's doing okay, I think we should lose a couple of minutes. And that song, oops, sorry, has to go. The song has to go?

Right. And she jumped out of her seat and looked him straight in the eye and said, Over my dead body. And the song stayed in? And the song stayed in.

You could say it was a wise decision. May I have the envelope, please? The song was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Song. The winners are Henry Mancini and Johnny Mercer from Moon River.

In addition to the Oscar, the song also picked up a pair of Grammys, and the great Andy Williams made it his own. Moon River, wider than a mile And for the latest version of Moon River, the Mancini family is passing the torch to another legend. Buble Mancini, Michael take one. Finally, Buble Mancini. Finally, my name is attached to the Mancini name. I have waited so long for that. Yes.

When the rainbow rivers start to play, dance with me, make me sway You'd think that in his 30-year career, Michael Buble would have made his own version of Moon River, but he's never recorded the song, and he jumped at the chance. When the Mancini family calls and asks you to be part of honoring the legacy of a genius, you say thank you so very much. I would love to be there. Can we do it in Vancouver?

Because I'm in 46 countries, and I'm only going to be home for six days. But you say yes. All right. Yeah.

I'm good if you're good. And we met him in Vancouver on the day of the session. He had limited time and a miserable cold. I knew a couple days ago my daughter started coughing, and I went like, oh, okay.

And she stayed in our bed, and I was like, this is going to happen to me. So it's going to be fun to see how I sound. Two drifters In the end, the cold didn't seem to bother him or anyone else. It has aged nicely. Maybe I haven't. Sean Ferrer, what do you think it is about this song in particular that endures, that pulls on our hearts like that? It's the essence. It's the perfume of the film. You know, the film was originally thought for Marilyn Monroe.

And of course when my mother got the part and she ran with it, she elevated it to a different level. And all of that, the high note, like in every opera, is this song. We're after the same rainbow's end And maybe that's the genius of Moon River.

Whether it's Hepburn and a guitar, or Buble's voice and the Royal Philharmonic strings, Moon River sounds the way Henry Mancini would have wanted it to sound. Perfect. And... Say the name Jim Thorpe and many would argue you're talking about the greatest American athlete ever. But there's one place in America where the name Jim Thorpe is synonymous with home.

Here's Muraka. Nestled in the foothills of the Pocono Mountains lies a charming borough, once nicknamed the Switzerland of America. But locals call it something else now. Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. You couldn't miss the name if you tried. There's a Jim Thorpe neighborhood bank, there's a Jim Thorpe market, there's a Jim Thorpe borough. And we're standing in front of a field for which high school? Jim Thorpe Area High School. And the name of the team is? The Jim Thorpe Olympians. Mayor Michael Safranco is a lifelong Thorper. In 1971, we'd go somewhere and they'd say, where are you from? And I'd say, Jim Thorpe. They'd say, I don't want your name, I want to know where you live.

And now what it has taken on is when I go somewhere and they say, where are you from? And I say, Jim Thorpe. They say, oh my God, I love that town. It's about the town more so than the person.

Yes. And in case you're still wondering, yes, the town is named after Jim Thorpe the man, who became famous worldwide after the 1912 Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden. Well, being crowned the greatest athlete of the world by the King of Sweden, I think is one of my great moments in my life. To call Jim Thorpe the greatest athlete in American history is not a stretch, because no athlete before or since has done what he did. David Maraniss would know.

His biography of Thorpe, Path Lit by Lightning, published by Simon & Schuster, like CBS, a division of Paramount Global, tells Thorpe's remarkable story. No one has had that triad of being the first great NFL football player, the winner of the gold medal in the decathlon and the pentathlon, and a major league baseball player. And he was great at ballroom dancing. He was a good skater, a great swimmer. Lacrosse?

Lacrosse, definitely. Even people said he was good at marbles. Is that true?

Yes. The athlete also became an actor. And thanks in part to his own activism, Native American characters were increasingly played by Native Americans, himself included. Prague, Oklahoma, was originally Indian territory when Thorpe was born here in 1887, brought up on the Sac and Fox Reservation. His birth name, Wathohuck, translates to bright path. If your last name is Thorpe, do you have to be good at sports?

You do not. None of his descendants could never fill his shoes. Thorpe had passed away by the time Anita Thorpe came along, but she spent her life learning her grandfather's story. People would come up to us and say, are you related?

I still get that to this day. As a grandchild, I just feel like it's my honor to carry his name and to continue his story any way that I possibly can. And back in Jim Thorpe, the town, where tourism is thriving... I want to welcome you guys to the Jim Thorpe Trolley Tour.

I'm going to come down and punch your tickets. The story of Jim Thorpe, the man, gets a little complicated. How many of you guys know how long Jim lived in this town? Never.

That's correct. After Jim Thorpe died in 1953, most of his family wanted him buried in Oklahoma, but his widow had other ideas, and she struck a deal. She gave her late husband's body to a down-on-its-luck region of the Poconos, and the resort town of Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, was born. If you weren't mayor, what would you think of that? Obviously, I would want to dig in and find out, well, why did that happen? That's got to be a little bit your... Right. I mean, that's just... yeah.

For the full story of America's greatest athlete and how he ended up buried in a town he never lived in, listen to Mopituaries, wherever you get your podcasts. Our commentary comes from Hussein Ibish, an Arab-Mideast scholar with thoughts on the way forward. Nothing can excuse the terrorist rampage by Hamas. They murdered hundreds of Israelis and made no preparations for the two million people of Gaza to survive the inevitable retaliation. Israel is responsible for avoidable civilian deaths and for cutting off all basic necessities for the Gaza Palestinians now under collective attack. Civilian deaths could easily rise into the tens of thousands.

Well, how did it come to this? The history is long and disputed. Yet today, a structurally unsustainable, inherently explosive situation prevails. In the territories controlled by Israel since 1967, there are roughly equal numbers of Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Muslims and Christians. All seven million Jewish Israelis have citizenship and full human and legal rights, and only one million Palestinian citizens of Israel. The five million Palestinians under occupation don't.

In a world made up of states and their citizens, the stateless Palestinians are unique because they have no citizenship in Israel and yet no state of their own. The occupation forces Israelis and Palestinians into a toxic relationship of dominance and subordination. This unnatural relationship ensures periodic outbreaks of atrocious violence. The conflict involves individual and group malice on both sides. But structures of violence are hardwired into any relationship defined by the control of one people by another in a contest for land and power. Israelis and Palestinians must stop dehumanizing each other. Hamas killed Israelis indiscriminately. Israel says it's confronting human animals in Gaza. People treated like animals sometimes act like animals. It's a self-reinforcing shared pathology. Israelis and Palestinians must re-humanize each other and eventually cooperate in replacing the violent occupation and resistance with genuine coexistence. That can only be sustained between equals.

Humans who respect each other's full humanity, recognizing we are all no better and no worse than each other. Thank you for listening. Please join us when our trumpet sounds again next Sunday morning.

by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Hi, everyone. I'm Drew Barrymore, host of, well, The Drew Barrymore Show. And welcome to The Drew Barrymore Show podcast. Stream from the car, the train, the shower. Wait, what?

That doesn't work. Well, you never know. Whatever you're into, just take a moment to see the sunny side of life with us. I can't wait to go on this journey together. Hear the new episodes of The Drew Barrymore Show podcast every day, Monday through Friday. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.