Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio on Flowers of the Killer Moon and David Brooks

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That's Amazon.com slash true crime ad-free to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Music Good morning. I'm Jane Pauley, and this is Sunday Morning. It seems the whole world wants something from us, something we have only so much to give. Our attention.

Apps and websites, videos and games, even TV shows. They all know how to entice us, often with fast-changing images, images that can sometimes overwhelm. But has this assault changed us?

Changed our behavior? Maybe forever? We ask that you pay attention to our David Pogue. Music I've never been able to sit down and watch a movie. I can't sit still.

Like, I get bored. Every year there's a new source of interruptions. It's too much for any brain. It's too stimulating.

It's not healthy. Coming up on Sunday Morning, are our attention spans really getting shorter? And does it matter? Anthony Mason this morning brings us two things that are very rare. New music from the Rolling Stones, along with a chat with the Stones about what keeps them going. Hi Keith. Hi Keith. What's he doing here? I'm with you.

Hi Ronnie. This week the Rolling Stones released their first album of new songs in 18 years. Some people are resistant to hearing anything new. That's natural.

But you've got to make sure that what you play out new is going to be good. Mick, Keith and Ronnie. The Rolling Stones, ahead on Sunday Morning. Lee Cowan will be talking with director Martin Scorsese along with Leonardo DiCaprio about the disturbing true story portrayed in their epic new film. This wealth should come to us. The film adaptation of the bestseller, Killers of the Flower Moon, took on a story so dark and so foreboding that even its veteran filmmakers weren't sure at first just how to put it on screen. Trying to be as truthful as possible is the only way to tell these stories. The true tale of a shameful chapter in American history.

Too painful to believe. Later, on Sunday Morning. John Dickerson is in conversation with New York Times columnist David Brooks. Plus Seth Doan on events in the Middle East.

David Martin with retired general David Petraeus. And more, this Sunday morning for the 15th of October, 2023. And we'll be back in a moment. I'm Mo Rocca, and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast Mobituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us. From famous figures who died on the very same day to the things I wish would die, like buffets.

Listen to Mobituaries with Mo Rocca on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. For two decades FBI agent Robert Hansen sold secrets to the Kremlin. He violated everything that my FBI stood for. Hansen was the most damaging spy in FBI history and his betrayals didn't end there. Do I hate him? No, I don't hate anyone. But his motive. I would love to know what his true motive is so I can get that out of me.

How did he do it? Why? Follow Agent of Betrayal to Double Life of Robert Hansen wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Does it seem like our lives are moving along at an ever faster pace? Take just one example, the online world, where algorithms feed us an endless stream of engaging content. But are we really living life faster?

And is this change changing us? Pay close attention to correspondent David Pogue. Uh huh. Yeah. Hang on one second.

Oh, let me call you back. I gotta do a TV thing. Does it ever seem like something is going on with our attention spans? I mean, the world's number one most downloaded app is TikTok, an infinite stream of very short video clips. Newspaper articles are getting shorter and they tell you how much time you'll need to read them.

And the average length of a shot in a movie is now under five seconds. We're always holding another device. Like if you're watching something, I feel like everyone always has their phone next to them after. These days, multitasking while you're tasking is the norm among young people.

Just ask counselor Lauren Barnett and her daughters, Zoe and Sasha. My roommates would all be like doing work on their computers, watching TV, but also on their phones, texting people. I have a short attention span. You hate long classes. Yeah, I can't sit in long classes.

I think I can sit at long meals. Yeah. Where are your phones right now?

Over there somewhere. Is there any cell in your body that's like, as soon as this is over, I'm going to go right over and... Every cell. So my book is called Attention Span and it's basically... I'm sorry, can you hang on one second?

Hello? Just kidding. Gloria Mark is an attention researcher at the University of California, Irvine. Is there any scientific evidence that attention spans are getting shorter?

Yes. So we started studying attention span length over 20 years ago. We would shadow people with a stopwatch and every time they shifted attention, we'd click stop. In 2003, we found that attention spans averaged about two and a half minutes on any screen before people switched.

In the last five, six years, they're averaging 47 seconds on a screen. How can you get anything done if you're supposed to write a report and 47 seconds later, you're switching to another app? You do it with great difficulty. Professor Mark maintains that a shorter attention span has three downsides. The first is that people make more errors when they do attention shifting. Second downside is that it takes longer to do something because we have to reorient to every new task every time we shift. The third downside, maybe this is the worst of all, is that stress increases.

When people are working on multiple tasks and they have to shift their attention, their blood pressure rises. You don't have to be a professor to guess at the cause of our greater distractibility. It's technology, of course. Phones, social media, texting.

Sasha Barnett can attest to that. Do you guys have iPhones? Yeah.

Go into the screen time settings and tell us how many unlocks in a day. You can do that. Oh, pickups. Okay, yesterday I picked it up 236 times. Oh my God. That's a lot. So is that it? Have we become the overstimulated zombies foretold in Back to the Future 2?

Okay, I want the channels 18, 24, 63, 109, 87, and the weather channel. I don't think our attention spans have changed really at all. There's no data for that.

Cornell psychology professor emeritus James Cutting doesn't think it's time to abandon all hope. I would point out that TSA baggage scanners work two-hour shifts, and that's pretty intensive work for two hours. And many of us have watched teenagers play their games for many hours at a time. And it strikes me that that kind of attention span is pretty impressive. But what about that business of movie shots getting shorter? I mean, we've come a long way from the pacing of 2001 A Space Odyssey in 1968 to Top Gun Maverick last year. Cutting says that's got nothing to do with our attention spans. We just know the language of movies better than our ancestors did. We have gotten over the decades a lot faster at picking up visual material. It sort of makes sense that a filmmaker would make the shots shorter. The filmmaker doesn't need to dwell on something like that. Cutting also points out that even though TikTok videos are very short, movies themselves are getting longer.

There are a lot more movies pushing three hours now than there used to be. But of course we also have long-form television where things can go on for eight episodes, 12 episodes, or whatever. One thing's for sure. As Lauren Barnett points out, technology's not going away. It's their whole world. There's no job where they could be without it. There's no academic environment where they could be without it.

There's no social interaction unless they go away to the mountains for two months. I am not an advocate of throwing away technology. What we need to do instead is learn how to live with it. Gloria Mark has a couple of tips for staying focused. First, when you feel the itch to change tasks, analyze why. If it's just boredom or procrastination, make a deal with yourself that you'll work another 20 minutes, and then treat yourself to a reward. Second, picture yourself at the end of the day. What do you want to have accomplished? How do you want to feel?

A concrete visualization of yourself sitting on the couch watching your favorite show is really good motivation. I mean, my grandfather died just shy of his 107th birthday. And he told me that his parents would say, you're going to rot your brain listening to that new-fangled radio. For me, it was you're going to rot your brain watching TV. For you, it's you're going to rot your brain on social media.

I mean, every generation thinks that technology is ruining the next one. That's why I'm hung up on this notion of, is it worse or is it just different? It depends on whether they're considering productivity or considering well-being. And I think they're two very different things. I think they'll be just as productive.

But their well-being, with all that increased productivity, there's no question that their well-being is negatively impacted. So therein lies the dilemma. Including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunting my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother, who was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen everywhere on October 23, or you can binge early and ad-free on Wandery Plus the same day. Scorsese, DiCaprio, De Niro. Seldom do those names appear on a single movie marquee or tell a story that's quite so dark. Lee Cowan on their epic new film.

On the plains northwest of Tulsa, Oklahoma, where oil rigs outnumber the bison, lies a stain so dark it makes the crude look crystal clear. The tragically true tale of man's inhumanity to man that's hitting the big screen this week. I was sent down from Washington D.C. to see about these murders.

Huh. See, what about him? See, he's doing it. Trying to be as truthful as possible is the only way to tell these stories. This wealth should come to us.

Oscar winners Leonardo DiCaprio, Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, and a relative newcomer, Billy Gladstone, teamed up with Apple Original Films to bring David Grand's best-selling book, Killers of the Flower Room, to life. It's so simple. The front is the front, the back is the back. He has to make it look like he done himself. It just looks like murder.

It's not supposed to be that way. In this case, it's not who done it who didn't do it. Set and action. It's a sweeping epic, three and a half hours long, shot on location on the Osage Reservation in Oklahoma. Where in 2017, we joined author and journalist David Grand. We're talking about scores of murders and we're talking about a very small population. Killers of the Flower Moon took Grand a decade to research. Each thread he pulled took him down a darker road. This is a story that has real evil in it. Evil like I've never covered or ever experienced or researched about before in my life. Really? Was that dark?

Yeah, yes. The Osage, they have the worst land possible. That evil showed up when the money did. The Osage land was long thought to be worthless.

But they outsmarted everybody. The land had oil on it. In the 1920s, oil was discovered here, which almost overnight made the Osage among the wealthiest people per capita in the world. Money flows freely here now.

I do love that money, sir. Like a magnet, their newfound prosperity attracted outsiders. White men, mostly, who came not just to build the Osage out of their oil money, but to inherit it. The only way you could get their money was to marry into their families and then to slowly target them. At this Osage cemetery in Greyhorse lies the evidence that entire families were wiped out, either shot, blown up, drugged, or poisoned.

Ernest Burkhart wormed his way into the Osage family tree by marrying an Osage woman named Molly back in 1917. You talk too much. Their real-life love affair, as troubled as it was, is where the film begins. What was that? That's how you are. I don't know what you said, but it must have been Indian for handsome devil. In the heart of the entire situation, you're in love, the trust that goes with love, and then this extraordinary betrayal.

And still loving. Now how do we do that? The short answer?

Carefully. We did our absolute best to listen to the Osage community. I don't know if we did a perfect job.

Who knows? But they embraced us and were so incredibly helpful and so vulnerable. This is the Osage War Shield, typical of that time, that era. Principal chief of the Osage Nation, Jeffrey M. Standing Bear, knows the risks of letting Hollywood in. Native Americans have always had someone else tell the story about us, but we wanted to tell our story. When we spoke with the cast and crew back in July, they were all on that same page, especially Martin Scorsese. You deal with Native Americans and Indigenous people, you've got to make sure everything we do, everything we do, is as authentic, as accurate, or at least as reasonably accurate for what can be remembered as possible. And respectful. So, to that end, he hired as many Osage as possible, both in front of and behind a camera. They really worked hard at this and earned our respect.

You felt comfortable with the way they were going to approach it. If you're not comfortable with Martin Scorsese, you're not going to be comfortable with anybody, I tell you. I don't sleep anymore. DiCaprio's co-star, Lily Gladstone, has critics raving. I don't even know if you love me anymore.

Why? Of course I love you. She grew up on the reservation of the Blackfeet Nation in Montana. She brought so much to not only her character, but to the entire film.

She was an amazing partner to have. Aw, thanks buddy. It seems like that's emotional, though, for you to hear.

I mean, I guess I could try to choke it down and put it somewhere else, but why? It is. It is. It's a big responsibility and it's terrifying. It's hard being a native actor, having this much that you can audition for.

Yeah, Marty showed me what's possible. The film called for her to speak fluent Osage. DiCaprio and De Niro had to master that language, too. The language itself, how hard was that? It was tough. I mean, you did an incredible job and you also did an incredible job of doing it the way a white man would say it.

That's my job. For Hollywood trivia buffs, this is the first time that DiCaprio has worked with De Niro and Scorsese on the same film at the same time. The two of them are so incredible together.

They're shorthand. The way they communicate, it's almost through sign language, it's nods, it's this, it's... I know, I know.

I mean, it's incredible to watch. You said that you have sort of a shorthand with Robert De Niro. What do you have with Leo? A long hand.

Long hand? With me, it's long discussions, grinding things, lots of rehearsals. Expecting a miracle to make all this go away?

You know they don't happen anymore. For David Graham, seeing all of this come together was both satisfying and, to him, a bit mesmerizing. My world is not in Hollywood at all.

I am a nerd 24 hours a day. We caught up with him just before the film debuted for the Osage in Tulsa back in July. The idea that now we're standing here and there is going to be a film and more and more people are going to learn about the history, to me that is what is so powerful and remarkable about it to me. Graham ended his book with a conversation he recalled having with an elderly Osage woman as she looked out across these plains. She quoted scripture.

The blood cries out from the ground, she said. All these years later, perhaps those cries will finally be heard. It's been just over a week since Hamas' devastating surprise attack on Israel. And that's put a new focus on tensions in the Middle East and just how we got here.

Seth Doan has a Sunday Journal. At least 1,300 people in Israel have been killed. In Gaza, at least 2,100.

The story somehow keeps getting worse. Israel vows to crush Hamas. As we watch and read, sometimes reluctantly, faced with the reality of yet another war in the Middle East. This time sparked by the unimaginable brutality and barbarity of those surprise attacks by Hamas. This was an act of sheer evil. This country was created in the aftermath of the Holocaust.

And it's based on a promise. A promise that this state would protect Jews from precisely these types of atrocities. And this was the largest single incident of Jewish death, of murder, since the Holocaust. Seth Doan was Israel's ambassador to the U.S. We connected with him from the bomb shelter of his home. A very armored door. As Hamas continues to fire rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip.

A house next door was destroyed. It's very real for us. We've all known people, Seth, every one of us, who have been massacred, dismembered, executed.

It's intensely personal. The real question is what happens long term. Robin Wright is a contributor to The New Yorker and has been covering wars across the Middle East for the last 50 years. I think Prime Minister Netanyahu thinks he can destroy Hamas. But can he destroy the idea, the politics, and the commitment by Palestinians who feel that there's no prospect down the road of a two-state solution.

Who don't see the restoration of their freedom, their dignity, their jobs, the economy. I think this is far harder than the kind of simplistic language that Netanyahu has been using. Still, Israel's Defense Ministry insists they will wipe Hamas off the face of the earth. But Hamas fighters make up just about one percent of the population in the densely packed Gaza Strip. It's sealed off from Israel by that security barrier. And now they're encircled by Israeli troops and being pounded by airstrikes. Palestinian health officials are saying they're running out of food, they're running out of water.

Israel has turned off the switch to electricity there. There's a humanitarian crisis unfolding in Gaza right now. The danger is that it deepens the passions among the Palestinians, who even among those who never liked Hamas. Because living under siege is really tough.

And the most important thing about the future is where are their hearts, where are their passions, and where are their commitments. And a siege is not going to help make them fans of Israel. The port of Haifa in Palestine lies shattered by bombs and strewn with death. Today's conflict has a complicated, bloody history, with its roots and competing religious and ancestral claims to this land stretching back millennia. It is what all the participants hope is the first step toward breaking the cycle of violence in the Middle East. But in 1993 there was some hope for peace.

Oh, there you have it. The handshake. Israel officially recognized the Palestine Liberation Organization, or PLO, in exchange for the group renouncing terrorism and recognizing Israel's right to exist. Hamas responded with violence.

Predictably, the Muslim fundamentalists of Hamas took credit for the killings, calling them gifts to Yasser Arafat, the peace settlement, and all the traitors. Hamas, which receives funding from Iran and is labeled a terrorist organization by the U.S. and the E.U., came to control the Gaza Strip when it won parliamentary elections in 2006. The idea promoted by the United States was to get the Palestinians on both the West Bank and Gaza to speak with one voice, elect Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, the traditional PLO, as the government, which was willing to deal with Israel. But there was such alienation and disillusionment with the PLO that populations turned to Hamas. And that has prevented any kind of peace process because the Palestinians are divided between the two territories and have very different ideas about how to move forward with Israel. While progress toward peace has stalled between Israelis and Palestinians, and a two-state solution seems increasingly unlikely, Israel has made peace with several Arab countries. Why are we seeing this conflict explode again now? Hamas went to war, I think, for a variety of reasons. Israel was engaged in possible eventual talks with Saudi Arabia brokered by the United States, which would have been the most important peace process between Israel and the Arabs because Saudi Arabia is the guardian of Islam's holy places. In your view, why now? Because they could.

And because we let our guard down, frankly. And we're going to have to address that failure when the smoke clears. Michael Oren thinks Iran's involvement supporting Hamas adds to the risk that this conflict will only widen. But born in the U.S., he made his home in Israel and says in the longer term, he sees progress. I wonder how you see the prospect for peace.

Is this just an intractable issue? When I moved here, there was no peace with Egypt. There was no peace with Jordan, Morocco, UAE, Bahrain, Sudan.

Peace with Saudi Arabia? We had no relations with India. We had no relations with the Soviet bloc. We had no relations with China, with Africa. I mean, totally isolated country. If you would have told me nearly a half century ago that this is what Israel's foreign relations would look like, I'd say, you know.

What type of narcotic are you on? Really? Do not underestimate the possibilities and the hope for peace. So for all of the heartache of today, I'm hearing that you have hope? Certainly.

Of course I do. He's an expert on the art of war. And with Ukraine and now Israel in the headlines, it's an all too relevant topic. David Martin is talking with retired General David Petraeus.

This is going to be a very, very tough fight. Retired General David Petraeus, who commanded America's wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan, knows from experience what Israel is facing in its war against Hamas. I almost can't imagine a more challenging contextual set of circumstances here than what they face. Sending an army, even one as powerful as Israel's, into the densely populated neighborhoods of Gaza. There are tunnels. There will be rooms that will have improvised explosive devices.

You have to clear every building, every floor, every room, every basement, every tunnel. Civilian losses are inevitable and tough Israeli losses lie ahead as well. Petraeus, along with British historian Andrew Roberts, has just written a book titled Conflict, a word which has come to define the century which began on 9-11. This is far worse than 9-11. As horrific as 9-11 was, the October 7th attack on Israel killed a far greater proportion of its much smaller population. This is the equivalent of the U.S. having experienced over 40,000 losses rather than the 3,000 terrible losses that we sustained in the attacks on 9-11. On September 11th, it was planes.

On October 7th, it was thousands of rockets and fighters, even gliders. The complexity of what they did was really quite extraordinary. Were you surprised by the sophistication of the attack?

Yes. Actually, I was more surprised that there just wasn't the awareness of what was being planned. Petraeus was once director of the CIA and can't understand how both Israeli and American intelligence missed preparations for the attack. This is a very substantial operation and the planning of it alone would have been very considerable. The training and equipping and positioning of forces, then the actual conduct of it, that all of that could take place and not spark much increase. Military readiness is really quite stunning.

How do you account for it? Dramatic improvement in Hamas's operational security. Very, very creative use of these munitions and capabilities to degrade dramatically, in some cases, knock out the Israeli ability to see what is going on around this quite formidable iron fence that was established. For the very least, it would be safe to say that Israel underestimated its enemy.

No question about it. What do you think Hamas hoped to achieve with this attack? What their leaders have said was to get the world's attention. Could the Hamas objective have been as simple as kill Jews? That's always the objective, again, destroy Israel. Hamas killed Jews but didn't destroy Israel, and now Israel has vowed to destroy Hamas.

Tell me how this ends. If the mission to the Israeli military is to destroy Hamas, if you have to destroy every headquarters, if you have to capture or kill the bulk of the leaders, if you have to do the same with the bulk of these terrorist fighters, the question is then what do you do with Gaza once you retake it? You can't walk away from Gaza. If Hamas is destroyed, there will be a power vacuum in Gaza, which Israel can't ignore. This is a very tough decision if you're going to have to reoccupy and administer Gaza, again, because clearly you can't go in, destroy the Hamas infrastructure, and then leave because, again, they will reconstitute themselves. And what happens to the people of Gaza? They're going to suffer, and the Hamas has brought this on them. We stand with Israel.

President Biden has promised to back Israel to the hilt, sending two aircraft carrier strike groups off the coast, as well as flying in fresh stocks of munitions. And with its own invasion of Iraq, the U.S. has also left Israel with an object lesson in the perils of overreacting to a terrorist attack. We've made mistakes, which is what happens when a nation gets its blood up. Israel certainly has its blood up now. There should be a cautionary tale from our experiences in the wake of the 9-11 attacks. Some of the actions that we took we look at differently now, and there will come a time where some of the actions that will be taken by Israel will be looked at in a different way as well.

I actually think that there is a consciousness of this in Jerusalem. They earned the title, World's Greatest Rock and Roll Band, a long time ago. But the Rolling Stones are still at it, still touring, still making new music. They've got a lot of work to do. They've got a lot of work to do. They've got a lot of work to do. They've got a lot of work to do. But the Rolling Stones are still at it, still touring, still making new music. Legends indeed.

Talking with our Anthony Mason. You don't expect birth announcements from a 60-year-old band. But last month in London, the Rolling Stones revealed they'd made a new record. Don't get angry with me Hackney Diamonds is the Stones' first album of original music in 18 years.

Do you like working in this place? Yeah, it's an old friend of ours, Electric Lady. At Electric Lady Studios in New York, where the band worked on the new record, we caught up with Keith Richards. Is it like getting on a bike when you guys go in the studio?

Pretty much, but you're not sure if the tires are pumped up. What's he doing here? Over in London, Mick Jagger and Ronnie Wood joined us. So how did this come about? Well, my recollection is that Mick said what we need to do is say let's make an album, let's blitz it. Basically, that was the impetus. We used to have to have a record ready to go out on tour, so there was a deadline. So then we more or less did what we said we planned to do. Which was really unusual.

Yeah, really unusual. And I think I said to Keith, it's going to be finished by Valentine's Day. And Keith looked at me like, how quickly do you know in a recording studio when you have something? You've got to give it a minute. You can't be dismissive if you don't get it in the first one minute. But you kind of get to know in ten minutes, if I say. It wouldn't take long to know if something's really there and whether it's worth chasing. And it's a bit like a painting.

You construct, you do the first layout, and then you give it a breath. You know, go away. It's a chore, a painter.

We don't have that. Let him have his analogy. Come back and fill the jigsaw, you know.

I love that. Those people aren't Van Gogh, man. Van Gogh away, please. Don't get angry with me. The album's lead single, Angry, started with a lyric from Jagger.

I was just playing guitar in the Caribbean on my own and just came up with the idea. And then I took it to the next level with Keith. Mick and I, we kind of kick each other up the ass. I like that.

I don't like that. Whatever it is, it's a sort of chemistry. But the band's chemistry was rocked. When drummer and founding member Charlie Watts died in 2021.

Did you feel the need to put an album out? I think maybe because of Charlie's demise that we felt that if the Stones were going to continue, then we'd better make a mark of what the Stones are now. Was it hard for you on tour to look back and not see Charlie there?

Yeah, of course it's hard. I mean, it's all my life. Ever since I was 19 or whatever, it's always been Charlie. On some level it had to be emotional not to have Charlie there.

Of course it's emotional, but you have to get past that in life. You know, I love Charlie and all the things, but I still want to carry on making music. Last year, the Stones toured with new drummer Steve Jordan. But Watts plays on two tracks on the album, including one with the Stones' original bassist, Bill Wyman, who left the band in 1993. Did Bill have to be coaxed to come back, Bill Wyman?

No, not at all. I phoned him and I said, are you still playing the bass even? I said, what do you mean? I'm playing every day I'm making an album.

I said, great, Bill. Come and do this track. Because Charlie's on it and I'd like it to be reunited, the original rhythm section would be a cool idea. When those original Rolling Stones first formed in London in 1962, they never imagined it would last. I remember when we had the first hit record, we kind of looked at each other like, this is amazing. Well, we've got about two years, boys.

And then you've got to find a job. Six decades later, they're still one of the biggest touring acts in the world, grossing $179 million last year alone. We just are pioneers in a way that no one's done six years of rock and roll ever. Ronnie Wood, at 76, the youngest Stone... Do you paint every day? Well, when I can, yeah, when I'm not playing the guitar.

...is side gig as a painter. I'm inspired here, for instance, by Delacroix. That's what keeps me going. And then I go, wow, we're going to play music next.

And it just one runs into the other. His two artistic passions merge on tour. There's Coachella. When he makes these set lists after every show, it's a kind of memoir. Oh, that was when that happened.

That's what we played. Do you know how many shows you've done? No.

No way. Have you ever considered writing a memoir? Oh, yeah, I've considered it, and I've been offered a lot of money. And? And I've seen people do it, and it takes like two years.

They're living two years in their past. And that doesn't appeal to you? That does not appeal to me. So someone else will just have to remember it for me. Both Jagger and Richards have landmark birthdays this year. Yes, yes.

The big 8-0. Richards in December. How does that feel? I asked Mick because he's six months older than me, and he says it's not that different.

Jagger became an octogenarian back in July. Well, it's a bit overblown, you know. It's not all it's cracked up to be being 8-0.

There's no really options here. You're either going to get there or you're not. Well, you've gotten there in pretty good shape. Well, thank you. That's very kind.

He's singing the best he's ever sang, I think, now. That's another reason we've got to keep going. When you've got it, flaunt it, you know. Why do you think you guys have endured? I think we basically love each other and we love our music. And when you're doing it, you don't really think about it.

But I think with Charlie going, I've realized more and more how special that is. I mean, there's something about the Stones and there's something about us all that sort of says, no, we stick together. And then you can't just drop it, you know. You've got to follow it right down to the end, down the tunnel, you know. Because you said it's bigger than all of you. Yeah, it is.

Damn thing. John Dickerson is in conversation with columnist and author David Brooks, who is wondering what life might be like if we all felt just a little more seen and heard. David Brooks is on a one-man mission aimed at no less than changing human behavior.

So here we are in the street corner being watched. This is a good chance for both of us to be emotionally vulnerable and seen by everyone. So what's your hope for this book, David? Yeah, I'm hoping that people just learn to see each other, that there's one skill at the center of any healthy family, community, organization or country.

It's the ability to see each other and to make each other feel seen, heard and understood. For the last several years, Brooks has been on two writing tracks. His New York Times column addresses politics and society. His books have been an examination of character, morality and personal architecture. His latest book, How to Know a Person, and he's the first to admit it's partly about how to know himself. Would you cop to your book being a self-help book?

I'm not shy about that. I'm trying to help myself. So it's selfish. I'm trying to help myself, but I hope it will be helpful to others. And in my view, every book should be a self-help book. You should be able to learn something that will improve who you are.

Brooks is not just concerned with himself, though. He writes, We're living in the middle of some sort of vast emotional, relational and spiritual crisis. It is as if people across society have lost the ability to see and understand one another, thus producing a culture that can be brutalizing and isolating. If we don't see others, what are the stakes? I think there's nothing crueler than to be indifferent to someone, to make someone feel invisible.

And that's happening. The problem with the skill that I'm talking about, we don't teach it in school. And often we don't teach it anywhere. The book's thesis is that while human relations are hard, the skills can be taught. And if people can improve their one-on-one interactions in listening, in conversation, and in what Brooks calls the close at hand, it might have a compounding effect on society. You write about diminishers and illuminators.

What's the distinction there? Yes, my theory is that in any group of people, there are some people who are diminishers. They make you feel invisible, unseen. They're not curious about you. They stereotype you.

They label you. And then there are other people who are illuminators. And they are people who are just curious about you, and they make you feel lit up. To lift up those illuminators, Brooks started Weave, the social fabric project. For six years, the nonprofit has been supporting people who, as he says, are working to weave together the social fabric in their communities. We intend to restore souls here. People like Renee Mitchell in Portland, Oregon, who started the Soul Restoration Center.

I'm always, you know, working with youth who don't see themselves reflected, you know, so I have to give them something that says that I see you. I honor you and your experiences. She basically embodies everything I learned over four years of writing this book. She builds strength in people who have been wounded by injustices of society.

And she's everything I'm not. The challenge, as Brooks acknowledges, is that the forces of modern life, social media, partisanship, pull at our attention, rile us up, turn the other into the enemy. Even he is not immune to these forces recently. The now famous $78 tweet, it's been seen some millions of times. Last month, while eating at Newark Airport, Brooks posted about his $78 launch of a burger and bourbon. This is why Americans feel the economy is terrible, he wrote. The response was not favorable.

He was accused of being misleading because the booze and not the food was pricey, accused of being out of touch, entitled, and worse. The post has been viewed more than 38 million times. Does that reaction surprise you? It's like every screw-up I've made on social media, not too many, but I thought about that tweet for like three seconds. And I sent it out, and it started out as being a joke. It was like a picture of a meal I was eating at an airport with a burger, fries, and bourbon. And it was probably the least healthy meal I hope I ate that week. And so it started out as, look, and it was 78 bucks. The joke in my head was, I can't even afford to make poor lifestyle choices.

But the way I wrote it was incredibly stupid. And so it seemed like I was oblivious to something that's blindingly obvious, which is that me, as a New York Times columnist and a well-off, lucky, privileged journalist, as if I'm not aware that that's very different than a family living paycheck to paycheck. Brooks started as a Times columnist 20 years ago as the conservative on the op-ed page.

He often infuriated liberals, but recently he says he's become more liberal, out of sync with much of the Trump era. The Republican Party used to be the party. You weren't thrilled by them, but they were the business party. They knew how to run things.

And that seems like eons or light years ago. You wrote recently after the Republican debate that it demonstrated the disease of narcissistic hucksterism. I think that's what Donald Trump has brought into our life. What's narcissistic hucksterism? It's what Vivek Ramaswami is doing in that debate. It's like you don't have to tell the truth.

You just have to tell the entertaining thing that makes you a showman. How many human beings can take a mug shot and turn it into a positive thing for them? And Brooks thinks there's not a small chance that Donald Trump could end up back in the White House.

And so I think there's a 40% chance that Donald Trump wins reelection. I wouldn't say the majority, but I take it extremely seriously. So does David Brooks have the prescription to save us from ourselves, or is he a lonely voice crying in the wilderness? One of the unifying ideas in politics, whether you're on the left or the right, is that these are dire times and the wolf is at the door. And so in those times, do you worry that what you're prescribing in this book, which is to see the other, is naive? Because people are saying, fine, but the wolf's at the door, I'm not gonna say, boy, isn't that some nice fur you have?

Yeah, well, I don't think the wolf's at the door. I found it's very hard to hate. But everybody does.

I mean, left and right. Yeah, but not me. Yeah. I found it's very hard to hate people up close. All you have to do is show a little hint of humanity, and they say, oh, and then suddenly all the wolf at the door stuff diminishes. It's not naive to lead with trust. It's not naive to lead with respect. It's practical. And so I guess I reject the idea that I'm being like a babe in the woods in a world of wolves.

I've got the tools that are the most aggressively effective at countering the wolf. Thank you for listening. Please join us when our trumpet sounds again next Sunday morning. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to CBS Sunday Morning with Jane Pauley ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.