Mo Rocca's "Mobituaries" Podcast | Died on the Same Day with Anderson Cooper

Hey Prime members!

You can listen to CBS Sunday Morning with Jane Pauley, ad-free, on Amazon Music. Download the app today! There are so many amazing days on the way to your wedding day, and Zola's here for all of them. Like the day you find your perfect venue, the day you almost skip to the mailbox to send your invites, and the day you realize making a budget isn't so scary. Zola has everything you need to plan the wedding you want, like a free website for your guests to RSVP and shop your registry.

And those not-so-amazing days? Talk to Team Z, Zola's expert wedding advisors, who know exactly what you're going through. They're here to answer any questions, or just listen to you vent. From getting engaged to getting married, Zola is here for all the days along the way.

Start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A dot com. Hi listeners, it's Mo Rocca, CBS Sunday Morning correspondent, author, and lover of all, well, many things and people dearly departed. Today I'm sharing a very special episode from the new season of my podcast, Mobituaries, with Mo Rocca. In Mobituaries, I pay tribute to the people and things that didn't get a proper send-off, if they got any send-off at all. This season we've got some pretty special subjects, from legendary athlete Jim Thorpe to the death of some of history's great Nepo babies. Here's one of my favorite episodes from the season.

Please enjoy. Do you remember the day that Farrah Fawcett died? I do not, and I'm ashamed. But you know it was the same day as Michael Jackson. Was it? I'm chatting with CNN anchor and 60 Minutes correspondent Anderson Cooper about one of the biggest days in the modern history of obituaries, June 25th, 2009. I mean, now that you say it, I do recall, did she die in the morning and then it was announced that Michael Jackson died a little later that day? Michael Jackson was confirmed dead right before the evening news broadcast on the east coast, so she had the full first half of the day. Well, I mean, as she should. I mean, well, yeah, that's fascinating.

I didn't realize that. That's a strange pairing. I asked Anderson to join me today because he not only has a real understanding of the news cycle, but he also hosts a podcast about death and grieving called All There Is. Anderson started working on the podcast when he was packing up the apartment of his late mother, the well-known designer, artist and heiress, Gloria Vanderbilt.

I've lived a lot, lost a lot, had dreams of love and fateful encounters. I wanted his take on why Michael Jackson's death so completely overshadowed Farrah Fawcett's. I think it's a combination of her just I'm not saying it's fair, but from a news standpoint, you know, her career had probably peaked. I guess she was not in the forefront of pop culture and the public consciousness in the way that Michael Jackson still was. Now, Farrah wasn't entirely out of the headlines in 2009.

She'd been very public about her three year battle with cancer. But Michael Jackson's death was a shock, a suspicious drug overdose. The King of Pop had even been staging a comeback tour.

And so as the afternoon progressed, the special bulletins came fast and furious. Pop superstar Michael Jackson rushed to a hospital in Los Angeles today that when they arrived on scene, he was not breathing. At three fifteen Pacific time, Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, was pronounced dead. Michael Jackson had an extraordinary career and a troubled life marked by incredible highs and terrible lows. Just from on a global scale and the ups and downs and the controversies, I mean, look now, Michael Jackson is still more talked about than Farrah Fawcett. There's no Farrah Fawcett musical on Broadway.

There should be. But, you know, a friend of mine from The New York Times, I remember at the time, he said, Michael Jackson is a story about music, about business, about fashion, about race, about celebrity justice, like every section of the paper. Also, I mean, there's his children, there's the family, there's the siblings, there's the question of possible medical malpractice. And Michael Jackson grew up before the cameras in a way that Farrah Fawcett did not. The day after both of these pop culture icons passed away, CBS's early show mentioned Jackson's name more than one hundred times. Farrah Fawcett was mentioned just six times. And of course, we're also going to remember Farrah Fawcett. Somebody put it this way. This is the moment when Generation X realizes they're grown up, when we lose two icons that really defined our generation. These people were on our lunchboxes. Right.

Yeah, it was the ultimate one-two punch yesterday. Speaking of which, Ed McMahon died two days before Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett. Oh, really? Interesting.

Totally ignored. Now, when it comes to obituaries, I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon surrounding public figures who share the same death day. Who gets top billing and why?

So in this episode, I'm going to do something a little different. Instead of focusing on just one person, Anderson and I, along with some other special guests, will look at a series of noteworthy people who happen to have died on the very same day as other noteworthy people. There are, of course, more cases like Farrah's where news of one person's death gets, well, buried by the death of someone else more well known. Of course, you're going to tell me that Charles Manson got all the coverage.

He got all the coverage. Some coincidences seem too perfect, almost divinely engineered. I mean, what are the chances Thomas Jefferson would die on the same day as John Adams? On July 4th, no less.

Not just any July 4th, but the exact 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. There are cases of singular showbiz talents turned co-stars in death. Sammy Davis Jr. died after an eight month battle with throat cancer, and Jim Henson, the creator of the Muppets, died suddenly of what the hospital called a massive bacterial infection. And then you have what I call the odd death fellows, those with seemingly nothing in common. For example, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Mouseketeer Annette Funicello. Can you imagine the conversation those two had upon arrival in the afterlife? I don't think Margaret Thatcher would have had much to say to Annette Funicello.

I mean... It's blanked pinko? From CBS Sunday Morning and iHeart, I'm Mo Rocca, and this is Mobituaries. This Mobit died on the same day. I mean, Farrah Fawcett, I had her poster, her famous poster, of course, up in my room as a kid, even though I wasn't really that interested in her in the way that most of my friends were interested in her. So that poster sold 12 million copies. And the thing that I love about it, and I think this is probably, or at least why I loved Farrah, is that apparently she rushed through the shoot because she wanted to go play tennis. But she was like a real person.

Yes. It's so of the time. It's so 70s. It's so... And she's just, she, yeah, she looks real. Now, we've got a bunch of died on the same day pairings to get to, but because Farrah got such a raw deal on the day she died, we're going to take some time now to give her some extra love. When Farrah posed for that 1976 photograph wearing a red one-piece swimsuit, she became instantly iconic. The hair, the smile, those teeth. I mean, Tony Manero, John Travolta's character in Saturday Night Fever, had her poster up on his wall.

Of course he did. By the way, Farrah's feathered flip was a TikTok fashion trend in 2023. Once upon a time, there were three little girls who went to the police academy. Anderson Cooper and I were just kids when Charlie's Angels premiered in the fall of 1976. It was a total sensation.

It was sexy and preposterous. Three beautiful women who fought crime at the behest of a man they never saw, but only heard via speakerphone. You heard that, Charlie? Everything, Sabrina. And I've already made arrangements for you three to go to prison.

Prison? You've got to be kidding, Charlie. It's no joke, Angels.

You can say that again. I loved all the Angels, including Kate Jackson's Sabrina, today known as the STEM Angel. But Farrah was in a class all her own. She radiated friendliness, big dreams, and a great American can-do spirit. Jill, thanks for everything. You're an angel.

Yeah, that's what they tell me. Farrah Lenny Fawcett was born in Corpus Christi, Texas, in 1947. Farrah was voted Most Beautiful by her high school classmates every year. But, and this is crucial, she was the kind of popular girl who was nice to everyone. I have no proof of this. I just know this instinctually.

Don't challenge me. Farrah went to the University of Texas at Austin to study microbiology before switching to art. At 21, with her parents' permission, she moved to Hollywood to try her luck in the entertainment industry. She soon appeared on The Dating Game. Number two, being from Texas, I'm used to having things done in a big way.

So how would you make a little thing like sending me flowers really big? Well, The Dating Game always fascinated me because even as a kid watching it, I couldn't tell if it was real or not. Did she appear as Farrah Fawcett? She appeared as Farrah Fawcett. She chose Bachelor number two, who was definitely the best looking one. I'm glad she chose him.

And he seemed like the most normal. There's no way that date happened. If she was Farrah Fawcett at the time, I don't believe that that date happened. Not surprisingly, Farrah began popping up in all sorts of commercials.

It must be said that there still has never been an advertisement as sexy as the TV commercial for Noxima shaving cream that ran during the Super Bowl in 1973. While singing, Farrah lathers the product on the face of superstar quarterback Joe Namath. Farrah left Charlie's Angels after only one season. For a while, she struggled to show that she had talent after co-starring in the comedy mystery film Somebody Killed Her Husband. One critic wrote, somebody killed her career, but she didn't give up. And by the mid 1980s, Farrah proved the naysayers wrong. You know, she had done the burning bed, so there had been a revival of her and, you know, and reappreciation of her.

And so she'd already gone through the cycle of sort of rediscovery and reappreciation. Anderson's referring to the 1984 TV movie The Burning Bed. Based on a true story, Farrah played a woman who fought back against an abusive husband. TV critic Matt Zeller Seitz has called the film a landmark, depicting domestic violence as an unambiguous horror and a human rights violation. And Farrah's performance, one of the finest in the history of TV movies. It's over. You know, I can come and go as much as I want.

Just leave, Mickey. On the personal front, her short-lived marriage to Six Million Dollar Man star Lee Majors and long-term relationship with heartthrob Ryan O'Neill were continuous tabloid fodder. But when Farrah was diagnosed with anal cancer in 2006, it was her illness that made headlines. She was suffering from anal cancer, which no everyone wanted to talk about euphemistically. They would just say she had cancer. But she insisted on putting that out there because it was sort of like an unspeakable kind of cancer, supposedly.

Oh, that's interesting. Good for her. Many of her fans last saw her appear in the NBC documentary Farrah's Story, which intimately chronicled her decline. It premiered on May 15th, 2009, the month before she died. Sometimes this disease makes me feel like a stranger to myself, like a blonde nothingness.

Alone inside a body that once was mine, but that has been damaged by radiation, chemo and all those drugs necessary for me to live. Now, in 2009, Michael Jackson was bound to overshadow anybody who might have died on the same day. But 46 years earlier, there was a day when the world all but stopped spinning. Here is a bulletin from CBS News. In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. From Dallas, Texas, the Flash, apparently official, President Kennedy died at 1 p.m. Central Standard Time.

If you're of a certain age, you will never forget where you were on November 22nd, 1963, the day that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Which means, though you may not realize it, you will never forget the day theologian C.S. Lewis, author of the Chronicles of Narnia, met his maker.

Every stick and stone you see, every icicle is Narnia. Or the day writer and philosopher Aldous Huxley gave up the ghost. A searing social critic, Mr. Huxley, wrote Brave New World, a novel that predicted that someday the entire world would live under a frightful dictatorship.

Yes, all three men, John F. Kennedy, C.S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley died on the very same day. That's so interesting. I just was trying to read an Aldous Huxley small book about his experiences taking, I want to say it's peyote, but I don't think it's peyote.

It's mescaline, I think. Yes, and I tried, I was really excited to read it, and I started it, and I just found it so dull. I thought you were going to say you found it so trippy. No, I just found it so dull, and that's interesting because I just read C.S. Lewis, his book about the death of his wife, and it's really, it's an incredibly touching book. I wonder, there are people, probably fans of those authors, who never realized they died. That's, I'm sure that's true, or certainly, you know, it took them a year to find out that they had died. Even globally, I mean, there's no way the assassination of President Kennedy on that day, there's no way anybody else would get any airtime. Well, Huxley's obit showed up two days later in the paper on the 24th of November, and then it took yet another day for C.S. Lewis, who had actually been the first of the three to die that day. His death was reported on November 25th. That same day, though, the headline was the death of Oswald, the murder of him by Jack Ruby, so he sort of got double eclipsed. Wow. I mean, it's extraordinary when you think about the impact that C.S.

Lewis had with all his books and beloved he was, and yet it's the vagary of the day. I mean, it makes no, you know, I've been on airplanes with a couple of famous people, and I remember one time thinking, if this plane goes down, the headline is going to be that person was on the plane, and four others, and I would be one of the four others. I think that you'd either get below the fold on A1, or you'd at least get the little reefer, the little go-to box. First of all, thank you for having thought of this in advance. Well, no, I just, you know, I think you have to... You were plotting my death as I came in here today.

Where would I stack up? You're talking about a front page? I would not be on the front page.

Oh, you want to play with the queen? I'm not going to say. As a member of the storied Vanderbilt family, Anderson is aware of the role that social class used to play on the Obits page. When my great uncle, Alfred Vanderbilt, died on the Lusitania, which was sunk by the Germans prior to the U.S. involvement in World War I, his name was in the headlines of the announcement of the Lusitania being torpedoed, you know, Alfred Vanderbilt doesn't survive, which is interesting given the number of people on board that ship, and I don't think that would happen today. Well, and this was in the New York Times, right? New York Times, yes.

Well, okay, and because the New York Times, especially then, and for a long time sort of deferred very much to establishment families, right? Well, I should also say, I work in a book about the Astors and Jack Astor, when he died on the Titanic, the Astor name was very prominent in the headline. Well, speaking of which, February 4th, 1959, on page 66, way back in the paper, the headline reads, Three Singers Who Died in Crash of Chartered Plane, and there are pictures here. They are Buddy Holly, Big Bopper, and Ritchie Valens. This is the so-called day the music died.

The three singers had appeared at the Surf Ballroom in Clear Lake, Iowa last night, and were on their way to Fargo, North Dakota. This is page 66, right? However, there is another death on page A1 that day, and it is, if you can see right there. Wow. That's Vincent Astor, dies in his home at 67. Yeah, dropped out of a heart attack in his home.

Wow. I mean, Vincent Astor had been one of the richest men in America since he inherited the money from Jack Astor when Jack Astor died on the Titanic. But I don't think today that person would be on the front page.

I think the Buddy Holly, the Ritchie Valens, and the Big Bopper would be. Right. I think that's right. I think the criteria has changed. Has changed. We're going to do a quiz now.

On November 19, 2017, two very different figures died on the same day. The first became best known for her television roles, but began her career as a jazz and gospel singer, releasing her biggest hit, Don't You Know, in 1959. Here's a little bit of it. Don't you know I have fallen in love with you. All right.

This is a little hard, so I'm going to give you a couple of other clues. She became very big in the 1990s on a Sunday night inspirational CBS hour long drama. She had been big in the 1950s, and then in the 70s, she was on the sitcom Chico and the Man.

If you don't come to that meeting, somebody is just liable to report this greasy old garage as a fire hazard. What, is this some kind of black male? Well, it ain't white male, baby. That's Della Reese, touched by an angel. Right. So she died on November 19, 2017, and she'd had a really interesting life. She toured with Mahalia Jackson when she was 13 years old. So she had this great career as a singer before she was on the sitcom and then on Touched by an Angel. By the way, on Touched by an Angel, I never understood, like Roma Downey was this angel that would go around. And I think Della Reese was like her supervisor or something. Don't you raise your voice to me, Miss Wings.

You got a little pride thing going on yourself. I watched a lot of TV, but like Touched by an Angel probably was not something I was watching. I was looking a little darker. Yeah, a little more dystopian. Murder, she wrote. I mean, every week someone dies in this tiny town in Maine, that's pretty dark. Anyway, on that same day, November 19th, 2017, another person who was decidedly not touched by an angel died. He also began his career in music.

Let's stop that now. And then because there's no way there's no way you're going to get this, I'll just give you a clue. He was a psychopathic killer. Well, I was going to say, is he a serial killer?

That's so funny. I was going to say just from that thing, I was like, is that like a recording made in prison by a serial killer? It was a recording made before this killer went to prison. And he was in charge of a family. Charles Manson?

Yes. Oh my gosh. Charles Manson and Della Reese. This just got really dark.

It got really dark. And I understand the fascination or that there was a fascination with Charles Manson. Of course, you're going to tell me that Charles Manson got all the coverage.

He got all the coverage. The New York Times, he was on A1. Della Reese was on A19. The Chicago Tribune put Charles Manson on the front page.

They gave nothing to Della Reese. The L.A. Times made Della Reese wait a day. I was probably on the air that day. And if I don't recall what I did, but I would imagine faced with those two. I mean, go with God, go with the angel. I mean, I think you have to go with Charles Manson, maybe like a reader of like, you know, Della Reese died. But to at least give her some props.

Yes. But, you know, and maybe play a clip from I mean, again, it's unfair, but but just in terms of like. Foremost in people's consciousness and the nightmares of generations of people and knowing that this person is no longer out there.

How would you do that transition, though? Well, I'm not going to do them close together. I'm not going to do a four minute piece on Charles Manson and then be like, oh, and Della Reese died. Well, or would you say we lost Della Reese today and in much darker news? No, you would not at all link them together.

Well, if you say somebody that we're actually sorry we lost. Why are you insisting on putting these two together? What is your vendetta against Della Reese? No, no, no, no.

I actually have her greatest hits. I really do. But I'm just thinking if you want the broadcast to have some cohesion and so. No. And then later on, we'll all be touched by an angel. No, we don't do that.

We wait. I would not also make a you've made now to touch by an angel sort of puns. I would not do a touch by an angel pun either.

You said someone who was definitely not touched by an angel. Right. Which was not a which was a clever transition, but not when I would. That's not what I would have used in a broadcast like coming up or something subtler, a passing that is touching all of us.

You could do that and then people won't know. And then afterwards, it was a very popular show and she sang the theme song as well. Oh, I didn't know that. January 17th, 2008, chess master Bobby Fisher, who then became a paranoid anti-Semite and Alan Melvin. Alvin Melvin? Sam the Butcher from the Rady Bunch. Oh, Sam, Alice's boyfriend. Sam. It's me, Alice. That's what I said, Sam.

Alice's boyfriend. And what happened to butchers? You don't see butchers. It's true. Bobby Fisher in the New York Times, A1 at the bottom, nothing on Alan Melvin. Alan Melvin was on B6 in the Washington Post four days after he died. OK.

I mean, I didn't know what to say. July 8th, 1994, Dick Sargent, the second actor to play Darren in the 1960s sitcom Bewitched. Good morning, Endora. How nice you dropped in. And North Korea's founding dictator, Kim Il-sung, die on the same day.

North Korea tonight announced a nine-day period of mourning for the only leader it's ever had, dictator Kim Il-sung, dead at 82. That was a tough one for us of who do we, who do we, who do we cover? But you know, here's the thing. I feel so bad for Dick Sargent because it's tough enough being the second Darren because everyone knows the first Darren.

Dick York was a better Darren, although Dick Sargent later came out and became a gay rights advocate and was apparently a lovely, lovely guy. But to be overshadowed on that, that one day you expect all the attention, right? And a genocidal maniac takes it from you. Don't try to spare my feelings. There's one thing I can't stand. It's someone feeling sorry for me.

Fun fact, Dick Sargent's first film role was a bit part in 1954's Prisoner of War about Americans in a North Korean POW camp. Who knew? Coming up after the break, some downright spooky coincidences and some very odd death fellows. Are you shopping with Rakuten yet? They help you save money on almost everything you buy. With all the cash back you get, you can treat yourself to the things you love, like new athletic apparel and even home appliances. In case you're wondering, the stores on Rakuten are ones you know and love, like Bloomingdale's, Zampos, and Samsung, plus so many cool ones waiting to be discovered.

There are over 3,000 stores. It's free and easy to join Rakuten and start getting cash back. Just go to Rakuten.com now or download the Rakuten app today. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Disclaimer, cash back rates change daily.

See Rakuten.com for details. Hate hitting pause when you're enjoying a great story? With the Audible app, you don't have to. Now you can take your favorite audio entertainment with you wherever you go. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. If you're a music lover, you need to check out the Audible Original Series, Words and Music.

You'll hear in-depth memoirs paired with exclusive musical performances by some of music's biggest stars, like Snoop Dogg, Alanis Morissette, James Taylor Common, and more. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash wonderypod or text wonderypod to 500-500 to try Audible for free for 30 days.

That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible dot com slash wonderypod or text wonderypod to 500-500 to try Audible for free for 30 days. 50 years to the day after the Declaration of Independence, having said all he had to say to us, which was enough, Thomas Jefferson died on this bed, a free man. On that same day, a few hours later, away to the north of Massachusetts, John Adams, also old and weak, also satisfied to have lived until the fourth, also died. His last words were, Thomas Jefferson still lives. That's so crazy that they died on the same day. I mean, I'm talking with Anderson Cooper about famous people dying on the same day. It doesn't get much eerier than two founding fathers meeting their creator on the very day the nation they'd helped birth turned 50. And wasn't Adams' son the president? John Quincy Adams. So I wonder, had I been on the air that day, hypothetically, like the coverage, what would you do?

Like if television had been around, both would probably get equal. But because his son is the current president, his son would come out and make like some sort of public statement and stuff. So that might push Adams up above Jefferson.

Yep, I think that's absolutely right. Because he would hold maybe a live press event and you would take the whole thing. You have to take the whole thing. And he would give, I mean, he would do a lot about his dad. He would definitely do a head nod to Jefferson and a lot about Jefferson. But John Quincy Adams is going to speak live in a minute. We're obviously going to take this live.

That would be 20 minutes. And then... Van Jones, what do you think? And we're back with the panel. But, you know, this was considered a big deal, the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. It's not something we just look back at now. Do you think that a person can hold on to die on a day like that? I do think that, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't have any actual evidence for that. But yeah, I mean, it seems, first of all, too coincidental in that way.

But yeah, I do believe people can hold on or decide, like, I'm ready. And maybe they did. Or maybe just one of them did the other. It just happened to be that day. That one seems particularly too coincidental.

I mean, what are the chances of that? What's so cute is that James Monroe died five years later to the day. So he died on the 55th anniversary. Really? Yeah, on July 4th, 1831. And it just is, I wonder if he was like, hey, guys, I want to be, me too.

I want to be in the club, but not really. Another historic coincidence? November 10th, 1962. Former First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt and Lillian Cross, the woman who decades earlier foiled an assassination attempt on Franklin Delano Roosevelt, are buried on the same day. Final tribute to Eleanor Roosevelt, distinguished lady of our times. Back in 1933, the five foot four, 100 pound Mrs. Cross was watching the then president elect deliver a speech in Miami when she noticed the even shorter Giuseppe Zangara aiming a gun at Roosevelt.

She grabbed him by the arm. I knew he was shooting at the president, so my first thought was to get the pistol up in the air so he wouldn't hurt any of the bystanders. Because of her heroics, FDR was spared and the bullet instead killed Chicago mayor Anton Cermak. So we've talked about pairings that sort of seem to go together, but what about pairs that don't seem to have anything in common, like Pope Benedict XVI and pointer sister Anita Pointer? Then there's Whitewater prosecutor Ken Starr and French New Wave director Jean-Luc Godard, who were both left breathless on the same day. Ditto character actor Rip Torn and third party presidential candidate Ross Perot, who was himself a pretty great character. Whose fault is that?

Not the Democrats, not the Republicans. Somewhere out there, there's an extraterrestrial that's doing this to us, I guess. These kinds of pairings are what I call odd death fellows. For this special category, I turned to two veteran obituary writers whom I met at 2019's ObitCon. Yes, ObitCon. Think Comic-Con, but for obituary writers. Kay Powell spent 15 years at the Atlanta Journal Constitution and is known in the biz as the doyen of death.

John Pope is a 50-year veteran of the business, penning obits most notably for the New Orleans Times Picayune. Both are fluent in the euphemisms used to eulogize the dead. Passed on, joined God's heavenly choir, or my favorite, the lights went out. Lady friend. Means? Horror, prostitute, or raconteur is a boring storyteller. A raconteur is a boring storyteller? In an obituary, yes. Rockus. Rockus means?

Loud drunk. Naturally, I thought they'd be the perfect duo to talk about this next combination of famous figures. April 8th, 2013. Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher dies on the very same day as former Mouseketeer and star of Beach Blanket Bingo, Annette Funicello. Beach Blanket Bingo.

Beach Blanket Bingo. Now, can either of you give our listeners a sense of how big a deal Annette Funicello was? Any boy who grew up in the 1950s watching Mickey Mouse Club was just head over heels in love with Annette. Time to twist our mousekey dial to the right and the left with a great big smile.

This is the way we get to see a mouse cartoon for you and me. Well, as a woman of that era, the most influential was Beach Blanket Bingo. And her two-piece bathing suit, really couldn't call it a bikini, it was a two-piece bathing suit, which I did have. Beach Blanket Bingo.

That's the name of the game. Well, you didn't mention this detail about Annette Funicello's swimsuit. She didn't show her navel because Walt Disney didn't want her to.

And I wouldn't either because we were ladies, John. She didn't have to be told that. For people who are familiar with Vanessa Hudgens, right, from High School Musical or Selena Gomez, you know, Annette Funicello was probably orders of magnitude bigger than those. She became even more beloved after struggling for years with MS and really advocating for others. Now, as for the obituary coverage, Margaret Thatcher got more attention. I wonder if news organizations struggled to balance who they thought they should prioritize versus who the audience wanted to hear more about.

What do you all think? No, they knew it would be Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, Thatcher had been out of the limelight, but she did lead a nation, for better or worse.

In the aftermath of Thatcher's death, protesters in the UK began an online campaign to propel the song Ding Dong the Witch is Dead from The Wizard of Oz to the number one position on British iTunes. I wonder, how do you handle the situation as an obit writer when the figure you're writing about has a complicated legacy, a legacy that polarizes people? You write it. You tell the story. You tell the truth.

Yeah. It's a news story, and that's part of the news. January 30th, 1948. The New Delhi, India radio has just been heard reporting that Mahatma Gandhi has been fatally shot. Mahatma Gandhi, the great liberator of India, is slain on the same day that Orville Wright, the co-inventor of the airplane, dies. Here at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, this primitive kite made aviation history. Now, obviously, Gandhi dominated that day, banner headline, but Orville Wright was also on the front page below the fold of most major newspapers.

This makes sense, right? I think if I look at it over the long haul, to me, we're looking at two people whose contributions are equal and affecting the entire world forever. Now, it had been 44 years since that first flight at Kitty Hawk when Orville Wright died, and it had been 36 years since his older brother Wilbur had died. I suppose that accounts for how much less coverage Orville Wright got on that day.

But you do make the point that flying, I mean, it's an unimaginable legacy. Gandhi, I mean, Gandhi founded a nation, and there was also the drama of his death. Orville Wright was thought of as more of a part of a pair. I mean, I'm sorry that he died, but he was old, and he didn't die as dramatically as Gandhi. And being part of a pair, maybe the power of his passing is diminished, like by a fraction of half? Oh, easily.

Absolutely. I mean, I wasn't around when either Lewis or Clark died, so I can't vouch for the coverage their deaths got, but it's like that. September 28, 2003, tennis pioneer Althea Gibson and director Elia Kazan both die. Now, Kazan was one of the most honored and influential directors in Broadway and Hollywood history. Hey, Stella! He was most famous for his Broadway productions, A Streetcar Named Desire and Death of a Salesman, and for his movies On the Waterfront and East of Eden.

Personally, I Love a Tree Grows in Brooklyn. They didn't have any right to kill it, did they, Papa? Oh, now, wait a minute. They didn't kill it.

Why, they couldn't kill that tree. He was controversial in his 1952 testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee. Kazan named the names of eight others who had been members of the Communist Party with him. Althea Gibson was a legendary tennis player who broke color barriers in the sport as a young woman. She was the first African-American tennis player, female or male, to win a Grand Slam title. After Wimbledon, New York, her native city, welcomed her home with a ticker tape parade up Broadway.

I would never thought that coming from the streets of New York, playing paddle tennis, that I would be one who would have the opportunity to shake the hand of Queen Elizabeth. She was the first black tennis player to compete in the U.S. National Championships, the precursor to the U.S. Open. And then in golf, she became the first black woman on the LPGA Tour. They both had a lot of coverage. Kazan got more coverage. So in the New York Times, Kazan edged out Althea Gibson. In the Chicago Tribune and the L.A. Times, they were fairly equal. You know, Kazan was a heavyweight, but Gibson was a major first. Did newspapers get this one right? Well, if you go by recent fame slash notoriety, Kazan had gotten back into the spotlight a couple of years earlier when he was given an honorary Oscar. And people were furious because this man who had named names was getting an award.

I would have probably given her more coverage for the groundbreaking things that she did and the variety of accomplishments she had. October 3rd, 1967, two very different cultural figures left us that very day. Here is the first. This land is your land and this land is my land.

From California to the New York Island, from the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters, this land was made for you and me. OK, that's American folk singer Woody Guthrie, of course. He died from Huntington's disease at 55.

It wasn't front page news, but it was the leading obituary in most major papers. Now, here's the voice of the other big entertainer who died that day. Just follow me, Bozo the Clown, and I'll take you to see circus town. This is indeed the original Bozo the Clown, played by the actor Pinto Colvig. Ultimately, there were many different Bozos, depending on where you lived, but the very first was Pinto Colvig. Any thoughts on the contrast between Woody Guthrie and Bozo?

Couldn't be more different. I mean, Woody Guthrie was of the people and Bozo performed his whole career in clown makeup. No one, I couldn't tell you what he looked like. Let me also add that Colvig, Pinto Colvig, was the original voice of Disney's Goofy and Pluto the Dog. Colvig also voiced the bearded muscle man Bluto and Popeye. And it's interesting because I used to always confuse Pluto and Bluto, even though they're very different characters. I'm washing them, baby.

I'm washing them. OK, have it my way. I would think that John sort of hit on it with the anonymity of who is Bozo. He had an appeal on one level. Woody Guthrie was kind of more political. The themes of his songs could be divisive, but clowns are rarely divisive unless you're afraid they're going to eat you so you don't sleep. Right. There's that. You're talking with someone who dated the first female graduate of Ringling's Clown College. Is that true?

Yes. Her name is Peggy Williams. She is in the Clown Hall of Fame.

That's really exciting. Was dating her a lot of fun? She had this habit because of her training. Whenever we'd go to dinner, I would say something kind of amusing and she would react.

She was playing to the second balcony. So it was kind of scary. When we've crossed over to the other side of the break, more with Anderson Cooper. For two decades, FBI agent Robert Hansen sold secrets to the Kremlin. He violated everything that my FBI stood for. Hansen was the most damaging spy in FBI history, and his betrayals didn't end there. Do I hate him? No, I don't hate anyone. But his motive, I would love to know what his true motive is so I can get that out of me.

How did he do it? Why? Follow Agent of Betrayal to Double Life of Robert Hansen wherever you get your podcast.

You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. I'm Mo Rocca, and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast Mobituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us.

From famous figures who died on the very same day to the things I wish would die, like buffets. Listen to Mobituaries with Mo Rocca on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back with Anderson Cooper and a game I call Above the Fold, Below the Fold, New York Times edition. For those of you who still remember what a newspaper looks like, the top half of the front page is above the fold, where the really big news goes. The bottom half of A1 is below the fold, where the still big, just not quite as big news goes. Okay, I'm obsessed with this, even though no one under the age of 50 knows what this means, right?

I actually still get a newspaper delivered to my house. Okay, right, so above the fold, below the fold, these are all A1 obits. Oh, these were all A1?

Yeah, so... I think my mom was below the fold. She was. Yeah, she was below the fold. She was. But she was A1. She was A1, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is great. I mean, it's great to have a mom who's on A1.

It's cool. Babe Ruth, above the fold or below the fold? Above the fold.

Jackie Robinson. Above the fold. Below the fold, and that, I think, is the most egregious error here. That's incredible.

That's pretty bad that they put him below the fold. What year was that? That was in 1972, October 25th. I'm sure it was still a pretty all-white newsroom, maybe? I don't know. I mean, there's more sensitivity, I would think, now in that Jackie Robinson, who is such a Britannic figure, would be above the fold.

Okay, Judy Garland. Above the fold. Below the fold. Really?

I know, it's crazy. June 23rd, 1969, she obviously died the day before. I cannot believe that she was below the fold. Where was Stonewall? Was it mentioned?

No. In the New York Times, I mean, they've owned it for days, I think, yeah. But she was below the fold. Wow, that's surprising. Lucille Ball. Well, I mean, if they messed up with Judy Garland, I'd say below the fold.

You're absolutely right about that. Richard Rogers, great composer. Below the fold. Above the fold.

Wow. Oscar Hammerstein, the lyricist. Below the fold? Below the fold, which is really, this is like part of what I think is like the New York Times long-running anti-lyricist bias. Is there a long, really? I love that you identified that.

It's true, and I'm, that's going to be my cause. I inherited my love of obituaries from my father. He always said that the obits were his favorite part of the newspaper.

It's probably because my father had a deep appreciation for the romance of life. I know that sounds strange, but a good obit captures that. The highs and lows of a person's life in just a few inches.

To put it another way, a good obit has the dramatic sweep of a movie trailer for an Oscar-winning biopic. The kind of movie that Golden Age director Cecil B. DeMille would make. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.

Incidentally, Cecil B. DeMille died on the same day as Carl Switzer, a.k.a. Alfalfa from The Little Rascals. Figaro! Figaro!

Figaro! How do you like that? Quiet, preposterous. Thank you very much.

You're not so bad yourself. I would like to watch The Little Rascals again to see if it holds up, because I still don't remember what the whole concept was. Who were these Little Rascals, and how did they get that way?

A great question, Anderson, and one we'll hopefully address on a future episode. But for now, let's talk about a pair of Hollywood royalty who both departed this realm on October 10th, 1985. Yul Brynner, famous as the king in The King and I. When I shall sit, you shall sit.

When I shall kneel, you shall kneel. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And Orson Welles, the director and star of Citizen Kane. Orson Welles died of natural causes at his home in Hollywood. He was 70. And Yul Brynner died here in New York after a long battle with lung cancer.

He was 65. I met Yul Brynner as a kid. I loved The King and I, and I loved Yul Brynner. And being in his dressing room and him going like, et cetera, et cetera, and the whole thing. I mean, he was Yul Brynner. Like, it was exactly what you would want Yul Brynner to be. Right. He was the king on stage and off. Off, on stage and off.

Incredible. But I think my, I mean, my mom went out to Hollywood when she was like 16, 17. Does she know Yul Brynner? She absolutely would have known Yul Brynner, yes. Did she know Orson Welles? So there is a rumor that my mom had an affair with Orson Welles, which I just read online. Can I ask, if your mother did have an affair with Orson Welles, was it Citizen Kane Orson Welles or Palmison Wine at Orson Welles? Oh, sweetie. It would have been Citizen Kane, Michael.

I mean, please. My mom had an affair with Marlon Brando and it was like on the waterfront, Marlon Brando. It wasn't, it wasn't Apocalypse Now, Marlon Brando.

I mean, give my mom some credit. So Orson Welles and Yul Brynner died on the same day. Yes. Now there's a split. On TV, Yul Brynner got top billing.

Okay. In print, and this sort of makes sense to me, Orson Welles very much got top billing there. Because I think in print they were honoring sort of the importance of Orson Welles, even though it had been decades, I think 45 years since Citizen Kane, they felt it was important to honor that. But Yul Brynner had been touring very recently. I brought my grandmother actually to see his very last tour in The King and I in Washington, D.C. And he'd had a 60 Minutes profile. And I don't know if you remember this, he did an ad that aired posthumously. First about cancer.

Ladies and gentlemen, the late Yul Brynner. I really wanted to make a commercial when I discovered that I was that sick and my time was so limited to make a commercial that says simply, now that I'm gone, I tell you, don't smoke. Do you remember that? I do remember that. I do remember that. It was a big deal.

Yeah. This is what's interesting to me. The people alive would have remembered probably foremost in their minds about Orson Welles at that time, the Paul Masson wine ad. The taste is smooth, flavorful, delicious. Paul Masson wines taste so good because they're made with such care.

What Paul Masson said nearly a century ago is still true today. We will sell no wine before it's time. Always annoyed me because it's a false rhyme.

Wine and time do not rhyme. That's what bothered you about it? It kind of did.

That's what bothered you about it. As a child? As a child, I loved Paul Masson wine. May 16th, 1990, Sammy Davis Jr. and Jim Henson. Wow. That's big. The memories of Sammy Davis Jr. and Jim Henson topped the news this morning. The head of Henson's production company says Henson took our breath away as a talent and provided laughter and love as a friend. Frank Sinatra calls Sammy Davis Jr. a class act and the best friend a man could have. They're like the Addams and Jeffersons of entertainment.

That is big. Sammy Davis Jr. had been sick for a while hadn't he? He had been sick and they'd had this really amazing special on television where all these stars paid tribute to him. And Gregory Hines got up and tap danced with him at the end. He wasn't expected to because he was so sick.

And then Jim Henson was a shocker. I don't remember him. I mean, I remember his death. I don't remember what. It was a pneumonia. I think for a time people thought, oh, is this a euphemism for AIDS?

No, he died of pneumonia. Wow. I mean, what incredible contributions both. Really amazing. Really amazing.

And they were given, I think appropriately, side by side coverage. That makes total sense. Just their creative output and Jim Henson, obviously the Muppets.

Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection, the lovers, the dreamers and me. You know, it's amazing to me that Sammy Davis Jr. never guest starred on the Muppets. Really? Isn't that amazing? Wow.

I mean, he was built for the Muppets. Perfect. Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be a big flop? From Wondery and Atwill Media, I'm Misha Brown and this is The Big Flop. Every week, comedians join me to chronicle the biggest flubs, fails and blunders of all time, like Quibi. It's kind of like when you give yourself your own nickname and you try to get other people to do it. And the 2019 movie adaptation of Cats.

Like if I'm watching the dancing and I'm noticing the feet aren't touching the ground, there's something wrong with the movie. Find out what happens when massive hype turns into major fiasco. Enjoy The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad free on Wondery Plus.

Get started with your free trial at Wondery dot com slash plus. At the top of this episode, we mentioned Anderson's podcast, All There Is. On it, he explores the importance of grieving. We've been having some fun chatting about the coverage of boldfaced names when they pass on.

But Anderson knows all too well what it's like to be part of the story. When he was 21, his older brother Carter took his own life. When my brother died, I do recall there being I think it was a front page with somebody else's photo on on it as him. I don't know if it was the poster, the daily news. And could you could you all even absorb that?

Could you absorb it enough to be outraged? I mean, we didn't have any, you know, we were sort of, you know, there were like reporters camped outside the house. And obviously my brother's death was very public because he jumped off the balcony of our apartment.

But we weren't looking at newspapers. Somebody who was coming to visit had I mean, stupidly had brought in a paper and I just happened to see it like sitting out in the foyer. But yeah, I just remember I just remember they had there was the wrong picture. You know, it's in the constellation of terribleness, you know, associated with this.

That's one terrible thing, the wrong picture. Does that have any meaning? That has no meaning.

Has no meaning. I mean, those were all very obviously dramatic, salacious headlines about, you know, my brother or about his death. So it's not something like an obituary that you would want to read.

And, you know, that also he was so young that there wasn't a track record for anybody to write kind of an obituary of. You know, it was unpleasant to have to feel like you're sort of in this cocoon and somewhat under siege. And then and then we went to the funeral home, my mom and I, to view his body. And there were there were camera people camped outside.

Of course, Frankie Campbell funeral home. And we were trying to go in a side entrance and they followed us. And I remember at the time hating the camera people, just feeling very protective of my mom.

And the weird thing is, I don't know if I've mentioned of this ever. And there was a viewing my brother's body at the Campbell funeral home. And we had really no way. I mean, we're all, you know, just like shell shocked. And there was a line of, I don't know, hundreds of people.

And we really had no way to police it. Anybody could have gotten that line. And my mom greeted each person. But I realized there's just random people on this line. So I spent the entire time going through the line, like pre greeting people and weeding people out. And there was one guy who got within like three people of my mom with a cover that he wanted her to sign the the front page. Oh, my God.

And what did you remember? I escorted him out. I ushered him away. And you ushered him away.

This is perhaps a little too logical. But do you think part of it was you just lost your brother? You weren't going to lose your mother because some lunatic was in the line or?

Yeah. I mean, I was always very protective of my mom. And certainly in that situation, you know, I felt very much like we are under siege and this is what I need to do. And there's really no one else who can do it because there's nobody else who kind of knows everybody that my mom knows. And I always been like my mom's gatekeeper. So I did a study of my mom from the time I was very little.

I used to read her journals like I would listen in on phone calls. I wanted to know what was happening. So, yeah, I police the line. So it's I mean, it's almost there was literally no one else who could do that job who was.

Yeah. Or nobody. I mean, there was nobody doing it. And I didn't feel like there was anybody who could really.

Yeah, I just didn't feel there's anybody could really do it. Anderson says that terrible chapter of his own life fundamentally shaped the way he approaches his work. It always stuck with me because I know what it's like to be on the other end of the camera lens in those situations. And it's really impacted the way I interact with, you know, if. There's been a school shooting and I'm talking to or approaching somebody. You know, I'm very sensitive about I know what it's like to feel to, you know, in the lowest moment of your life to have cameras in your face.

I would rather not get the shot than do something that is intrusive or inappropriate. I don't ask people how they feel when, you know, which is always an awful question. And so it's yeah, it's impacted the way I interact with people in those moments.

So, Anderson, on this episode, you and I have been talking about famous people who died on the same day. I have to tell you, whenever I bring up this particular subject to people and it happens occasionally, they almost always find it interesting. I mean, even fascinating. And they're sort of tickled by it.

Why is this interesting? I mean, why does anyone read obituaries? We all have associations with these people. And so, I mean, not with some of the historical figures, but, you know, we all have our own memories of Charles Manson or who or Della Reese, you know, however it may be, whoever it may be. And we feel connected to them. I mean, that's the interesting thing about celebrity. You feel you have a relationship with these people. And so there is this sadness when somebody, you know, when Sam the Butcher dies, you know, it brings back all those memories of your kid and you're watching it and Alice and Sam and the stupid jokes and the whole family and those experiences. Why don't they get married? Right. And who you're watching it with. Sam, are you going to kiss me under those stars?

I'm sure going to try. This is one of the things that fascinates me is, you know, the rituals of mourning and the rituals of grief. We don't have communal rituals really anymore. And so there's a privacy to grieving and it's done behind closed doors. And when more than one notable person dies on the same day, it almost makes you think about why people are remembered and how they're remembered. And also just how how mysterious all of this is, you know, how life and death and, you know, no matter how high and mighty somebody is in the end, we are all, you know, we all become dust and everybody we know will die and we will die. We all think we're the first ones to like face the troubles that we face and to, you know, have the issues that we have. But there have been generations of people before us who have had the exact same problems and exact same worries and sleepless nights and all that. And I take great comfort in that. And to know that no problem I face hasn't already been faced by generations of people before me.

And whatever sadness I feel has been felt by generations of people who have experienced far worse than I will ever experience and survived it. By the way, did you ever meet Michael Jackson or Farrah Fawcett? Yeah, I did meet Michael Jackson. I went to the premiere of The Wiz with my mom and my brother. And I remember I met him at the theater or if it was afterwards at Studio 54 where my mom took me at age 11. But it was very distinct to me because I didn't really know who Michael Jackson was other than the guy in The Wiz. I wasn't really much of a music listener as a kid, but I remember being at Studio 54 and watching him dance.

And I turned to the person next to me. I mean, I said, he's really good at that. He should pursue it.

You know how to pick him. I like to take some credit for, you know, he chose to pursue it. He needed that extra encouragement.

A little push from 11 year old me. The New York Times best selling book available in paperback and audiobook. This episode of Mobituaries was produced by Aaron Schrank. Our team of producers also includes Hazel Bryan and me, Mo Rocca.

With engineering by Josh Hahn, our theme music is written by Daniel Hart. Our archival producer is Jamie Benson. Mobituaries production company is Neon Hum Media. Indispensable support from Alan Pang and everyone at CBS News Radio. Special thanks to Steve Raises, Rand Morrison and Alberto Robina. Executive producers for Mobituaries include Meghan Marcus, Jonathan Hirsch and Mo Rocca.

The series is created by yours truly. You can listen to CBS Sunday Morning with Jane Pauley ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.