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This is Jane Pauley. What happens when Sunday morning's Tracy Smith sits down with actor Ethan Hawke? Just listen. What does Sardis mean to you? Yeah.
Well, I love the history of Broadway, you know, and so I mean, just being on this block, and I remember. I remember being a kid and the first time I came here, it was a um School field trip. They brought us all in a bus to see the musical 42nd Street. And I probably and then I I think I liked it more than anybody else. And you know, of course, we had the super cheap seats.
But it was so much fun. I remember riding the bus through here and getting stuck in traffic and The first time I heard about Sardis, It's just the stuff of legend if you're obsessed with the theater. And there's a romance to the theatrical life that As a kid, when you fall in love with the profession, Sardis kind of represents. I mean, we've got Eliza Minelli's portrait over there. I remember once.
One of the first times I got to New York, I couldn't afford to eat there, but we walked into the Russian tea room just to see it. Eliza Minelli. Just sucking back martinis right there at the bar. And I thought, wow, this is real. This is like a real place, Broadway.
Yeah.
When you were 18, you were in Dead Poets Society. Second movie, and it's Oscar-nominated. When you're in a movie like that, so young, does it set you up or does it? Set you up.
Well It's a great question 'cause it's Possibly both. Um If you let it be the high watermark of your life, it will be. You know, if you put too much on that. You don't want anything at eighteen to be the high watermark of your life, you know. I was lucky.
because the first film I had done was an abject failure. And I had thought it was in 1984. I did this movie called The Explorers, which was like a $30 million movie in 1984. Oh, yeah. It was from the director of Gremlins.
It was supposed to be a big deal. I was walking around like I was the new. ET or something, you know, I mean I was going to be a big star and it was and I was And the movie bombed, and nobody liked it, and nobody went to see it. And I really felt like it was my fault. You felt like it was your fault.
Yeah, I was in it with River Phoenix, whose next movie was Stand By Me, and he was jettisoned to international stardom. And I was like, oh. What didn't work about the explorers? Me. And so I started That was very difficult.
I mean, I d I I don't know how else to put it except that you know, whenever you're The flames of your ego get fanned too much, and then cold water comes on them. It's just you've You feel spent. and like a fool. forever thinking you might be You know, so.
So, when Dead Poets Society was happening and people were saying it was a success, I never bought it. You know, I was like, yeah, yeah, we'll see, we'll see. I just kept saying, we'll see, we'll see, I don't know, I don't know. And then slowly it kind of dawned on me, I guess this kind of is a success. But I was already thinking at that time about how to use acting to make some cash so that I could have a life as a writer, so that I could.
be a director or some kind of job that could sustain. You weren't thinking acting was what you're going to be doing. I think I liked it, but I didn't trust the opportunities would be there. The experience of Explorers was kind of like putting your hand on a burner. You know, I just was like, all right, you can't trust that.
You know. And then slowly With the success of Dead Poets Society, doors started opening and I was kinda inched my face through the door and then I kind of put a foot through and then I I slowly walk through. Hmm. And um and now here I am on CBS this morning. Before we move on from Dead Poets, I was re-watching.
captain my captain scene, which got me always, but now especially that scene just tears at my gut. For you? Oh my god, it's um It's changed how well first of all, there's so many things I could say about it. It's so incredible to walk around 30 years later, have people talk to you about something you did when you were 18. It's kind of powerfully moving about the power of art.
and that ideas really can Transform people and they can live. Um beyond you. And, you know, I meet kids with Carpe Diem tattooed on their arm. You know, and they're 19 years old. you know, in the the movies speaking to them.
And I know Watching Peter Weir and Robin Williams, the level of discipline and artistry that was applied to that? They they It wasn't a job to them, it was like a life's calling.
Now, there's that aspect.
Now, there's also a thing where That was a teaching for me. To sit there and have Rob Williams say to you, gather ye rosebuds while ye may, to be talking about Henry David Thoreau and Walt Whitman and talking about the power of ideas. There's a scene in that. movie where he's talking about Um how to grade poetry and he has all the kids rip it out of their Yeah, it's like I didn't realize how much I was being taught. and how that sustained me through negative criticism.
It's like there's not any rules about being a great actor. Drop dead, so you don't like it. Suck an egg, you know? It's not my problem. You don't like it.
You don't know what great acting is any more than I do. Wow. And those ideas were were given to me By playing the movie. And Peter Weir was a great artist, who was in the center of that. And he was, luckily he wasn't just a great artist, he was also a good teacher.
And he was a caring mentor and a good father and a good man. And so I had I was able to witness firsthand somebody who didn't let success turn them into a blowhard. Um He was a person who used his success to empower others and not to fan the flames of his own ego or to have power over others.
So it's like, oh wow. This is what success looks like. It doesn't look like some guy staring at himself in a mirror. It looks like somebody doing something for other people. Like it, I can do that.
Or I can, that's something that I could, that's a pursuit worth aspiring for.
So that movie's impact on me was Tremendous, but I'm not. It's not like I was sitting there at 19 going, that movie changed my life. I wasn't even aware. I didn't think of it. I was just thinking about.
Whether Susan and Molly and whoever Females who are in the room liked me. That's why I was thinking. That makes sense. At that age, that's what you're thinking. Can you watch that movie now that Robin's gone?
It didn't, it does not fundamentally change the way I watch the movie because. Even at 18. I was aware. of the complexity of his emotional life. I've had a lot of depression in my family.
And, um It was obvious to me that. all that power and that charisma came at a certain cost. It's a deeply, deeply sensitive person. who was highly attuned. to the energy of a room.
And, um I remember once. He was You know, making up lines and everybody's laughing, everybody's praising him, and then I went to get a glass of water. you know, get a bagel or something or And I saw him. Hiding. in a little corner in a couple of he was hiding in the dark.
by himself, And I Uh oh okay. It makes a lot more sense to me now, actually. You know. Yeah.
It was a lot. It was taxing. There's a lot of stories about clowns. You knew. and the happiness that they give.
and at what cost. How much that takes out of that? The end of his life does not define his life to me. you know Um And when I watch the movie, I think of the spirit of the man that I knew on those days and how powerful it was and how much he weathered that storm of his own psyche for us. and for other people.
Um I admire him tremendously. Yeah, there aren't two of them. It's so true.
So beautifully put. Thanks. You know, and that said, there aren't two of any of us. And to remember that. You know, there aren't two of you and there aren't two of me and everybody in this room.
So figuring out who that person is. That's the life's work.
So, speaking of that, so then you do this movie Reality Bites, right? And it launches you. Mm-hmm. Right, but at the same time, you're playing this guy that a lot of people really didn't like. What was that like for you?
It was kinda funny because I I it People thought I was Troy.
So they would think, oh, that guy's so pretentious. They didn't think Troy was pretentious. They thought I was pretentious. Or they thought Winona should have gone with Ben Stiller instead of him, and they were mad at me about it. I just played the part, you guys.
But I ultimately took it as a compliment. I was like, wow, they really bought that character. Because I knew I wasn't a prep school kid either. You know, when I did that, for five years, everybody thought, oh, he's a prep school kid. I'm like, no, I'm not.
And then you do training day and people think you're a tough, tough guy or something like that. I started to learn how. If you do a part really well, people just think it's you. That's why I think it's kind of funny. This joke to myself that, you know, every time you get a prize for acting, it means you failed.
Because y they they caught you, you know. You know, they can tell you're acting. But I still like prizes. I was going to say. I didn't want to say that.
I didn't want to say that out loud. No, what I mean is that there's something wonderful when it's invisible. You know, you see Jack Nicholson in one foot of the cuckoo's nest. I think that's a good idea. won the Academy Award for that.
So there goes my theory. But it just feels like he is Jack. You know, he's just it just seems like he's making up his lines. I mean I'm I used to watch that movie over and over again. Like, was that in the script?
Like, I just was obsessed with he was so loose and so alive and seemed so present. And I was like, that's... That's That's a magic trick.
So that's a North Star, that idea.
So it's a compliment if somebody comes up to you. Because I know you've said that people come up to you in a restaurant and say that they hate you. Yeah, it's happened before. Particularly after reality bites. I don't know why that guy got under people's skin.
You know, you know, it's um, he was the hipster, he's the 90s hipster, too cool for school. But he was smart and he was funny. Um And uh but He was arrogant and self-satisfied, and you know, so I understood. But it was just my job to play him. Didn't take it personally?
I tried not to. I just wanted to get another part and show him I could do something else.
So Training Day, okay, I think you said in an interview, you can remember every day of the shooting of Training Day? Pretty much that's how magical I mean, I bet if you talk to some Studio musician who recorded an album with Miles Davis or John Lennon. I bet they remember every day. Of that, like, this is my profession, this is my chosen craft, this is. Mm-hmm.
Debatably, it's not even debatable to my mind, really, is the greatest American movie star. And I say American, I'm not even sure I... Hold I don't know. He's the greatest movie star of our time and he's A great actor, too. and he's sustained a level of commercial success and artistic credibility simultaneously while carrying a very heavy mantle of race in America.
It's astonishing. You know? And It didn't happen by accident. You know, he works really hard and he's really good at what he does. And so once you see that, You know, as I watch him Fiddle was his toolkit.
Figure, see the way he memorizes lines, see the way he works on it, see the way he works a set. see the ways in which he uses energy? An imagination. It's like, oh. Oh, I see.
There's another room that There's another room to try to get into yet. Yeah.
So you just absorbed every single moment in scene with Denzel. The same way I felt about watching Jack Nicholson.
Well, now I got to be in scenes with somebody who had that level of artistry. It was pretty thrilling. And it's good to know that there's a lot that you don't know. Because it keeps you hungry and it keeps you humble, and you realize that, okay, yeah, I have not achieved that level of excellence. Like, I'm not capable of that yet.
And that didn't cow you. Really? You know, I was like, well, how the hell does he do that? Like wow, what did he think of that? And um It's a little bit like watching how I imagine watching a great athlete practice.
You know, you don't just magically score 40 points a game. There's a lot of practice that goes into knowing how to work a game. It's hard to get off that many shots, first of all. you know so Seeing opportunities. Not waiting for people to create an environment for you to be successful in.
creating the environment yourself. You know um And that's kind of the difference for me between being a child actor and an adult actor. You know, and that was around my relationship with Richard Linkletter was developing around the same time period where we were pushing each other. to expand our work. And I got to work with Denzel.
I was turning 30. And a kind of transition happened that was exciting for me. Where you felt like I felt like, okay, I'm going to do this for my life. This is interesting. I've got a lot to learn and I'm ready.
We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. Did you you mentioned that Denzel was able to do these big box office movies as well. Was big box office ever appealing to you, even for a moment? Here I wanted it. In the Right way.
Training day was the right way. I call it threading the needle when you can make.
Something that's commercial and uh Uh oh. artistically substantive. You know, like, it's very hard to do both of those things. commercially viable, you know, like if you wanna If you gotta feed 10,000 people, right, you're gonna make hot dogs and they're not gonna be delicious. You know, if I'm having 10 people over for dinner.
I can make you a really nourishing, beautiful meal with the right things. It's just for you, and it's going to be. Healthy and enjoyable. Likewise with movies, you know, if you got to entertain billions, you're going to. Do the film version.
of hat on. You know, and um some people can do both.
Some people can make a mainstream movie That is substantive and nourishing, and it's powerful. And that is the goal. But that's the goal more than. The success itself. Do you know what I mean?
One from the cuckoo's nest is to riff on that one and have it be a success.
Well, yeah, I want that kind of success. But I don't want success for successes. That's not the end. The point is not to get. Butts and seats.
The point is, what do you do with them when they're there? You know? So, have you turned down opportunities where there's a big paycheck, big box office movie? In my life? Yeah.
Yeah.
But you have to understand it wasn't hard. I was I mean now I I Wish I did some of those. But the way I was thinking at that time? I just wasn't oriented that way. I was so interested in the theater and I was so interested in And I didn't.
I didn't want to earn it somebody else's way. I I really admire people who are successful and things like that. I don't want to like it. I I wanted Before Sunrise to be a giant huge hit. Right?
And that's what I wanted. It wasn't. but I would rather it be you. an excellent movie that people want to talk about twenty-five years later, then have then You know, as Larry Hart says, and Larry Hart accuses Oklahoma of pandering a little bit, right? He says it gently, he says it kindly.
My favorite kind of art is when you feel like somebody's talking to you like a friend. They're not talking down to you. They're talking to you like a friend. This is the best of me. You know, and some people, the best of them is extremely populous.
They're being honest. It's who they are. It's not who I really am. And so I've got to try to play my game and find you where we can really meet. That makes sense.
Do you ever think about where your life might have gone had you, let's say, gotten a rolling Titanic? Yeah, I've thought about that one. Yeah.
I would happily publicly say how much I admire the way DiCaprio's handled his career. It's awe-inspiring to me. I mean, I think... He's more than anybody. I'm older than him, but And so it's hard to just take your hat off to somebody younger than you, but I did that about 25 years ago with him.
And I think I'm one of the few people that knows really how hard what he's accomplished. He took the success of Titanic, really did something with it. He's turned it into just really serious, interesting film after serious, interesting film. He's pushing himself as an actor, and he's doing it with the heat of the spotlight on him. It's a little um you know it's It's Similar to the way that Denzel has.
They're very different men, obviously, with different journeys. But it's awe-inspiring to me, the way he's used his success. I would have coveted you. You know, because he did it his way and he made quality. And he keeps working his active that, you know, a lot of my heroes, Denzel, Warren Beatty, I always admired him.
They had commercial success, but they also had art. They were doing it artistically challenging work. And so that was the, but the challenging part was the priority for me.
So if I didn't see a challenge there, I wasn't tempted. you know, to But I didn't know. Here's the funny. This is where I was it's it It was arrogant. I mean, I thought the offers would keep coming.
Do you know, to sell out. But they stop coming if you turn it down. If you don't make people money, they don't offer you things. And so I had these waves like after Reality Bites or Training Day where I would be getting offered big movies. And I was like, and I think people thought I thought I was too cool for school.
I wasn't. I was just obsessed with what I was doing. You know, and I don't think I thought that I didn't understand how much popular culture is largely for young people. When you're young, you think it's everybody. You don't realize that.
Oh, this is a young person's game. And those kinds of Job offers are, there's a shelf life on that. When did your shelf life When did that hit? You know, around the same time Gray starts appearing in your beard, you know. Suddenly, those sell-out movie offers aren't coming.
You have to already be making people a lot of money by the time that happens to keep going. That makes sense. You've made a point, and you touched on this, of. doing things other than acting, writing novels, directing, making documentaries. Was that A conscious decision to say, I want to balance this acting thing, this acting thing may not be, may not last forever.
Maybe I it's more um I don't wanna think b It's such a roller coaster life. I pour myself into Lee Raybon, right? And I'm there in Tulsa and I'm playing this guy and I'm driving a van and I'm obsessed with what he's wearing and I'm obsessed with the way he talks and I'm meeting all these amazing people and we're becoming friends. Show wraps, it's over. All those people.
It's like when summer camp ended and all your friends are gone and nobody even remembers you're walking around and your mom doesn't know how great it, like, there's no connection to your previous, that summer camp experience has no connection to your new daily life. And as an actor, that's happened to you over and over again. And you have no idea whether you're going to be out of work for a couple weeks or two years. or four years. or six months.
You have no idea. And it can create a real up and down of the self-esteem. You know, and it can make you feel really lost. And what I learned kind of young was: all right, if I have, if I'm doing something, If I'm writing a book. And I get this great part.
Great. I can put this book in this drawer and I go off and do this. And then it wraps and I come back to that book. And that's me. I'm me, and here I am.
I'm back. And I have some continuity in my life. That's going on throughout all these different parts. And simultaneously, I'm learning about writing and I'm learning about expressing myself, and that helps me be a better actor. I got older and started having kids, the time For writing was getting usurped, and I started, I discovered documentaries.
which was kind of easier to s put down and pick back up. And so I've made a few of those, but it's the same. part of my brain. that's trying to find balance in my life, Ethan's life. and gives me continuity between the characters, you know?
That's great. And you said it evens out that self-esteem, that psychological. Torture that it must be to go in and out of the project. It makes the adjustment less. You know, I work with my wife, that really helps too, because somebody else was at summer camp with you.
And they come back, and you guys can talk about how it went and what you learned.
So that really helps a lot. Did you make your very Joyful, optimistic. Did you make a conscious decision at some point to say, I can't control a lot of this as an actor, so I'm going to control my attitude. A thousand percent. It's all we control, is our point of view.
And you can have a point of view on any situation. Yeah.
I've seen people in absolute triumph. That should be blissed out and happy, and all they are is pissed about the residuals they didn't get, and they let it. Overcome their life. They are, no sooner do they win a prize than the pain of not winning it next year seems egregious. You know, it's the...
There's a danger with the warmth of the spotlight can make an ordinary temperature. feel really cold. And you have to be really, really careful with that. And so it's your point of view. That you can control.
You can have a miserable experience. And if your point of view is right on it, you start to realize it's really funny. This person is a total idiot, and I'm learning a lot from them. You know, and I can't, and that's what's funny is I learned this young, I learned more. from the films that went badly than I did from Dead Poets Society.
Because when everything goes right, you just think, well, that's just I guess that's how it rolls. You know? It's like a sailor. You'd learn more from bad weather. That you can handle storms and you can handle this.
And that's been so true of my life.
So you start going, if something bad's happening, guess what? This is great.
So life is actually presenting you a win-win situation. It's either going to go great or you're going to learn a ton. Both are awesome. And you start getting in that headspace, then you're inviting joy in. You know, and life is so...
You know, wi without rain you can't have a sunny day. You know, if we lived forever, we would have no joy of life. I mean it's Everything It's the correlation of opposites, you know. I'm imagining that this is part of what you've tried to pass on to your daughter, Maya. All my kids.
With her specifically being in this business, is there a temptation to try to protect Maya from the heartbreak that is inevitable in this business? No, you can't protect anybody from the heartbreak that's inevitable because, as you said, it's inevitable. It will break your heart, and that's the point. And your heart's going to open and it's going to expand. My son is falling in love with acting too.
He just did this incredible performance of Ibsen's Ghosts at Lincoln Center, and he just wrote his own play. And I'm watching him stare this profession in the eyes. And You have to figure out who you are and what you have to offer. And getting your heart broken doesn't mean anything bad is happening. You know.
That's a trick to think it ain't going to be all roses and sunshine. And if it was, you'd be a horrible bore. You know, it's uh one thing my mom said is Only two things worth hating. an easy life and vainglory, right? And then you start to look at life, I mean, All the great athletes talk about that.
You're either going to win the game or you're going to learn how to play better. It's the same is true of acting in this profession. Um Anybody who's fallen in love has been heartbroken and I I think almost everybody'd do it again. Hmm. Very true.
Okay, so let's talk about prizes for a second. Going back to training day, your first Oscar nomination, what is the seared memory that you have from that experience? I was sitting next to Denzel when he won. He's one of my favorite actors. I felt good.
That was it. That was cool. Yeah.
And as far as you were not winning, I i I really I saw the whole thing as a victory lap. You know, I knew that were not for the great light of Denzel's performance, nobody would even notice me.
So I was. I was amused. Hey look, you know who I was nominated against? Ian McKellen. For Gandalf, one of the greatest performances in cinema history, and he didn't win either.
Another time I was nominated, I was nominated against Robert Duval, one of my favorite actors, he didn't win either.
So, I mean, I-you-y-you take this for what it is. Denzel said something to me that I hope I'm not paraphrasing wrong, but this idea was: you don't want to win now. You're too young. You know, don't it'll kill your drive. You don't deserve it yet.
Earn it, earn it. Make sure By the time you get it, you've earned it, and you know you've earned it. You don't ever want, this is, I'm paraphrasing here, so, but it was something to the point of you don't want. A prize to elevate your status. You want to elevate the status of the prize.
That's the goal you're chasing. I was like Okay. Gotcha. I hear you, loud and clear.
So that keeps you working and keeps you hungry.
So you know where I'm going to go next.
Now there's Oscar buzz around Blue Moon. Do you tune that out? How do you handle that? We live in a culture, it's really hard to tune anything out. You I have to hold it in balance and like be really grateful.
to be at this age doing this long and have that conversation ev even exist. That conversation existing is like a victory in and of itself, right? That's good. There's an obvious other part of you that goes like, hey, I've dedicated my life. to this job and this is seen.
as a barometer. And um I would be dishonest if I didn't say that like that would be amazing. You know? And you have to hold it in its proper place. For me, with this job, the fact that it's happening, there's particular joy uh accompanying it, which is that I love the movie.
I've made nine movies which should link a letter. Um I made it with a bunch of my oldest friends. I mean, the peop the man who did the hair and makeup on it. Um David Atherton We've made done a bunch of things together and a lot of different things I've learned along the way were involved. in in the making of this particular movie.
And so that would feel special. I wouldn't be the actor I am. without My friendship and collaboration with Richard Linklader.
So that feels appropriate. to me. That are. Um But you also have to um I remember This is so corny, but it just flashes through my head. I was like 11.
12 or something high. I said, I said to my mother, I said, What's going to happen? With my life, what's gonna happen? And she, and I remember it so vividly, in the kitchen. like Doris Day.
When I was just a little girl. You know, it goes into quesarasara. You know, and you have to have a little quesarasara, you know. I uh Uh I find uh I don't take any of it for granted. That's, I guess, the right answer.
Any little bit of it. Beautiful. Yeah.
Kesara Syrah. My mom literally pranced around the whole kitchen. She'd sang the whole thing. She did. And I was like, mom, stop, mom, this is embarrassing.
But did the point, did you get the point?
Well, I'm 55. I'm talking to you about it, so I think I got the point. Whatever will be will be. It will. Will we have rainbows day after day?
I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Paramount Plus has big hits that hit hard.
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